Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 338/06

So you don't think that a 210gr nosler partition @ 2750 would be a good elk round? Should I get 250's? Which bullet would you recommend.
What about the barnes TSX 225gr?

How about a 210 TXS and kill anythingn that walks or craws in North America the 338/06 will work just fine for you.......

For many years the gun writers, fickle all, touted the 210 Nosler as a good elk bullet. Ghost is right. Heavier bullets will do better, but the Barnes bullets "shoot heavier" because
they are longer for weight, and penetrate deeper due to design.

I personally would give the TXS 225gr a try!

My choice of a 338-06 came from articles by Geoff Steer in the December 1985 issue of Guns and Ammo, two articles by Layne Simpson, one in Shooting Times/September 1985 and Rifle May/June 1986.

The person who sold me most on the 338-06 was the late, and great, Finn Aagaard. On elk, Finn wanted a 250gr Nosler partition and on anything less, he preferred the Hornady 225gr spire point. Be aware that many 225 grain bullets now available
were not yet born in 1986 when Finn wrote his article in American Rifleman. Neither were many of our premium 250s for that matter.

Finn rebarreled his beloved 30-06 rifle into a 338-06. Put the barreled action into a McMillan fiberglass stock, and had this to say: quote, "And despite being a handy and portable piece of moderate recoil, it will strike a walloping blow, because the 338-06 is one of the finest medium-bore cartridges of them all." unquote.

When I built my first 338-06, it was still a wildcat. I figured that since I had to fireform every case, I would just go with the A.I. version since it looked better to my eye and required no more work than the standard version.

While I don't consider myself an expert by any means, I do share my views with Finn Aagaard. That's as good company as you will find anywhere! I've been using 225gr Hornady spire points exclusively since 1987. If I ever hunt elk, it will be with my
338-06 A.I. using a 250gr premium bullet, just like Finn suggested.

And not even Allen Day will challenge Finn Aagaard's opinions which were based on many years of African experience!

Here's my experience with the 338-06 and 3 elk. It falls under the 3-4 animal comment by mule deer so take it for it's worth.

For perspective, I have killed/witnessed elk shot with 243, 270, 270 WSM, 7mm RM, 30-06, 300WM, 338-06, 338wm and 375 H&H.

I owned a 338 WM, shot a couple elk with it. Sold it, no big deal. Worked a whole lot better than the smaller calibers IMO.
The elk just acted like they were hit harder. No objective proof just subjective field experience.

So when I went to get a dedicated elk gun again, I chose the 338-06.

I don't like belts on my cartridges. Personal preference.

And I studied the ballistics between the 30-06, 8mm-06, 338-06 and 35 Whelen. Here's my thoughts:
30-06 ho hum
8mm-06 not enough bullet choices & European diamter
338-06 looked real good
35 Whelen not enough powder capacity IMO.

I went with the 338-06 and have been extremely happy with the decision. I have used this cartridge for the last three elk I have killed. Using 210gr NP and Barnes 210gr TSX bullets.

Having fired 5 shots total for the three elk.
I recovered one NP that penetrated the chest cavity and ended up lodged in the lower leg bone about 4" above the hoof.
I had one 210gr TSX shatter the front ball (4 pieces) and socket joint on a bull elk at approx 270 yards. That bullet continued on through the lung, liver and exited the paunch. Severe quartering to 2nd shot.

I see absolutely no reason to go to a heavier bullet for big cervid type game. Unless you plan on using a plain cup and core bullet, then go with 225gr (SD 0.281).

If one ever felt the "need" to use a 250gr bullet (SD 0.313) out of a 338 caliber cartridge. The need is for DG, just not needed for elk/moose IMO. If I remember correctly Hornady lists 2500 fps for a 338-06 and 250gr bullets.

If I had a choice between a 210gr 338 caliber and 200 gr 30-06 (which I don't feel is best for elk). I would choose the 338 everytime. The 338 210gr bullet is going to hit harder ie dump more energy into the critter. Because of bigger diameter and lower, but perfectly useful SD (0.263). So it's going to hit harder

Not a doubt in my mind that the 338-06 is better than the 30-06 on elk.

I have one .338-06 -- a rebarreled Ruger #1B -- that shoots very nicely with factory fodder and is waiting for me to work up loads in 210 TSX and 225 Nosler Partition. I had it built because I wanted a rifle that would shoot heavier bullets fairly accurately, not punish me as much as a .338 Mag and still deliver slightly similar oooomph down range w/o a rainbow trajectory.

My .338-06 is a "niche" gun for me as I do not much need or have much faith in the .30-06's vaunted versatility from 120 grain to 200 grain bullets. (I only own one .30-06 a beater Mannlicher Schoenauer for 'woods work'.)

In the .338-06 I can use the high dollar 210s and 225 gr bullets for big Northern and Western deer, bear, and elk with all of the advantages cited above. And the 250s are there should I feel the eneed to use them. For smaller deer etc. I have scads of 7mmm rifles -- which I reaaly prefer -- from 7mm BR through 7mm STW.

Works for me.

1B

IMO the 200 gr. 30 cal should be compared to the 225-250 grain 338 bullets, not the 210.

2,750 and a bit more with the 210 in the 338-06 (22") is no big deal with H4350. In a 24" barrel, 2,800 is doable but probably the north end.

Finn Aagaard got 2792fps using the 210 Nosler over 58.0grs of IMR 4320. And that was with a 22 inch barrel. Layne Simpson gets 2829fps using 62.0grs of IMR 4350 with a 24" barrel. Geoff Steer got 2848fps with 60grs of IMR 4320 and a 22 5/8" barrel.

Many 338-06 rifles were built pre SAAMI specs, so magazine length, COL and freebore will probably not be consistant. As
most reloaders know, Weatherby gets added FPS by increasing freebore. A subject not brought into this discussion so far?

The conclusions one can draw, are that 338-06 cartridges are not consistant and freebore will make a load safe in one gun but also make it unsafe for one with less freebore.

Therefore, SAAMI specs not withstanding, each rifle is in a world
of its' own, and reloading data MUST be worked up for each rifle
carefully.


By the way, Nosler's 200gr 30 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .301 while Nosler's 210 grain 338 bullet has an SD of
.263 and the 250 grain 338 has an SD of .313.

So, yes, the 200 grain 30 caliber bullet is more like the 225 or 250 grain 338 bullets.

Not matter what cal and or bullet I am using this is the kind of performance I want!

Also some other good little tidbits in your post there CRS.

Thx

Dober

A few more comments, on the comments since my last:

There is nothing wrong with the .338-06. It is a fun cartridge to fool with, the reason I've owned three of them. But all I can do is relate why I don't think it is anything special on big game.

One reason is that for many years my main elk rifle was a .30-06, almost always used with 200-grain Nosler Partitions. This started back when the 200 Partition was a "semi-spitzer," with a relief groove in the middle. The .300/200 Partition killed every elk I ever aimed it it, quite expeditiously, and to this date I have never recovered one of the bullets. In fact, both my .30-06's (and my wife's .270's) have a better record than CRS's .338-06 on elk, in terms of bullets expended versus dead elk.

I got my first .338-06 in the middle of that .30-06 experience somewhere, and found it did not do any better, even with 250's. Also shot the .338 Winchester a LOT (exclusively for several years). After further further experience since, I have pretty much concluded that anything more than a 200-grain .30 bullet is pretty much unnecessary for elk--and I might go even lower.

I cannot recall Finn Aagaard ever using his .338-06 on elk, and I knew him fairly well. He did use a .338 Winchester on one, but eventually his elk experience led him to believe that the super-toughness of elk was an exaggeration (the same thing he believed about African game). He started using smaller cartridges on elk, and I believe he killed his last one with a .280 Remington.

Was also somewhat puzzled by somebody's comment that the .35 Whelen did not have enough powder room, so he had settled on the .338-06. Have long believed they are both based on the .30-06 case.

If you do want to fool with the .338-06 (and again, there is no reason not to) many people are convinced that the .338-06 AI is vastly superior cartridge. The fact is that neither the .338-06 AI or the .35 Whelen AI gains enough powder capacity to make any difference, because there is so little shoulder to blow out. If you really want to thump something harder, a .338 Winchester Magnum or 9.3x62 is a step above either, and much less hassle to load.

JB

I ran 210's at 2,780 no problem with H4350 a 22" bbl'd 338-06 I built in 1999.

Still, I'm a 30-06 man myself and find the round totally up to taking elk and simply can't accept the idea the 338-06 is a superior to the 30-06 as an elk round.

When it comes to Finn Agaard, I'm in complete agreement with him that the toughness of elk and African plainsgame has been greatly exaggerated over the years.

At our gunclub over the last twenty-some years, I've chronographed a good many rifles in 338-06, and most of the guys who were shooting that cartridge were loading it with 210 Noslers, but some with 250s. The vast majority of those rifles gave right at 2700 fps. with the 210s, and barely 2500 fps. with 250s, often with high pressure signs. There were a few rifles that gave close to 2800 fps. with 210s, but in every case the primers were dead-flat, and there was evidence of excessive case expansion. For every 338-06 that provides 2800 fps., I can show you a 338 Win. Mag. that will produce 3000 fps. with 210s, and 2800 fps. with 250s, which isn't exactly a common occurance with either cartridge unless they're both loaded too hot.

But that's what often happens when guys who like semi-offbeat cartridges try to make the basic 30-06 case do what a belted-magnum case does better. They'll load the '06 case too hot, then they'll pick out lowball factory numbers for the legit belted-magnum chambering they're trying to compete with to make the gap between the two cartridges look to be much closer than it really is. Oldest trick in the book..........

At the end of the day, there's a 200 fps. difference, at least, between a properly loaded 338-06 and a 338 Win. Mag.. The Win. Mag. will do all that the 338-06 will do, but the reverse is far from being true, plus the 338 Win. Mag. has become a standard world cartridge, and as such it very much stacks the odds in your favor if you shot ever become seperated from your ammo in Jo-Berg or Anchorage.

I've been loading the 338 Win. Mag. for 27 years, and I'm still waiting for someone to fill me in on exactly what sort of problems I'm supposed to be having with that belted case. What sort of problems an I supposed to be having that I haven't had yet?????????????

AD

Heh. Heh. I really don't either, Brad. I love my 30-06 dearly.
But I love my 280 even more. And I'd still use my 338-06 A.I.
for elk using a 250gr nosler.

Mule Deer said it right when he said he couldn't see much difference in killing power on most game from the 6.5 to the 33.
The overlap and duplication of cartridges is simply amazing.

I could get rid of my rifles all but the 280 or 30-06 and still hunt the rest of my life a happy camper!

Different strokes for different folks! And the "my dog is bigger than your dog" syndrome is just plain....well, FUN!

Isn't it amazing how we all agonize over things rifle that don't in the final analysis mean squat? Feeds a lot of scribes though!

Allen, I think Finns conclusions were that although the 338 mag provides 100fps more than the 338-06, it didn't matter much in the long run, and in the field especially.

His conclusion was, and I agree with him, that if more was REALLY needed, then the 340 Weatherby made more sense.

Settle down there, boy, no one has insulted your mistress!
And that's what is at play here isn't it? You have had a long affair with a particular cartridge and can't stand the fact that some of us see her as butt-ugly!

Hey, big boy, I don't like Winchester model 70s either.
Watch the blood pressure now!

My experience shows a solid 150 fps advantage to the 338 WM over the 338-06 with all bullet weights in 22" barrels. Not monumental but personally, if I'm going to use a .338 bore anymore, it'll be the 338 WM.

Let's compare apples to apples:

The fastest muzzle velocity I can find in any my fairly substantial collection of reloading manuals for the SAAMI-spec .338-06 (submitted to SAAMI by A-Square) is about 2750 fps, in a 24" barrel (Hodgdon Annual Manual). This is at 62-63,000 psi. (The old hardcover Hodgdon manual has one load that went over 2800 fps, but evidently it was a misprint, or changed when retested.)

In contrast, the highest 200-grain pressure-tested .30-06 load comes from the Nosler manual: 2688 fps, also in a 24" barrel. But the SAAMI limit for the '06 is 60,000; most pressure-tested loads go around 57-58,000 to stay under the limit.

Weatherby does not ream a freebore into rifles chambered non-Wby. rounds, whether the .270 Win., .30-06 or .338-06.

JB

I can't agree with the 100 fps. difference at all, and I have a great deal more experience with the 338 Win. Mag. on game, and I have owned far more rifles in that caliber that he did. But my respect for the common-sense Mr. Agaard is high, I miss him greatly, and I agree with most of his observations very much.

AD

the 338/06 and near twin 35 whelen become much more effective with the 250 grain bullets, in my experiance, on ELK.
BOTH calibers have a big following and are well thought of by the members of our ELK camp, BUT what many people fail to realize is its the bullet construction and its expansion/penetration rate at the fairly low 2350-1900fps range that most bullets will IMPACT AT that has a huge effect on the results youll get.
remember your usually launching them at below 2600fps, probably closer to 2500fps
in the 35 WHELEN the 250 speer seems about ideal from my experiance
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000212453

in the 338/06 , these work ok, but are a touch slower ecpanding than ID prefer

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000212408

If your thinking of using the 200-210 grain bullets youll probable be better off with a 30/06

Just use the 340mag and the rest is moot!

I still say that dead is dead, whether it came by a 270 Winchester vs a 340 mag, or anything in between! Does anyone have an idea how retarded it sounds outside this discussion when one says the 270 is a great elk cartridge, and then gets rabid while insisting the 338 Winchester is superior to the 338-06 on elk?

Why not just use the 50 caliber since it is clearly better than all those under duscussion? Just how much is enough? Geeze,
I love this site. It beats going to the zoo everytime!

Don, you taken any elk with any of them?

"Just use the 340mag and the rest is moot"

GEE why didn,t I think of that..........
maybe the 250 grain bullets will work in that???
damn.....now that I check,
THATS WHAT IVE been using for 30 plus years with EXCELLENT RESULTS!
and the 338/06 and 35 whelen as back-up rifles most years....
my 35 whelen slide action remington has seen more dead elk than most of the camps rifles as its been the camp back-up plan for many years.
I do about 90% of the reloading in camp and theres 4 guys whos main elk rifle is a 338/06 or 35 whelen so I get to see those results constantly