In this months RIFLE magazine the featured caliber was 308 winchester and Mr. Sisk said out to 300 yards, the difference on big game between the 308 and 300 weatherby isnt very noticeable or something to that effect. i dont remember it verbatim. He basically said it might tee off all the magnum lovers but that was his view

What say yall

HERE IS THE QUOTE:
Sisk also thinks the .308 Winchester
is a great big game
hunting cartridge. �Maybe the
magnum boys will want to hang
me for this,� he says, �but I think
there isn�t any difference in performance
between the .308 and
the .300 Weatherby Magnum on
big game out to 300 yards.�

Drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies.

I can't say this with much experence to back it up,
But if the quarry is deer , I would agree. But if you up the size of the animal, to ELK or moose, I think a 200 grain bullet from a 300 mag make significant difference.
I love the .308 But To take and elk at 300 yards, I want a little horse power.
A .308 would do, but the extra 350 to 450 FT per second with the same bullet would have to make a difference.
At leas in my mind it would...tj3006

Point blank range with a .300 Wby and 180 grain bullets is 300 yards. With a .308, it ain't.

What most people overlook is that the .300 Wby can hit with a heavier bullet. You can drive a 200 faster than a .308 can drive a 150. Not to mention 1500 extra foot pounds of energy.

I'm amazed Sisk does not understand the value of that. This kind of statement makes me wonder why the author thinks a .308 is any better than a 30-30.

Speaking of Charlie, why doesn't he post here anymore?

Right now he is probably too busy getting his shop running again after the hurricane. Damage wasn't much but electricity was out for a while, so he was spending some time catching up.

In the long run he is probably tired of answering questions from people about his statements, which are based on some experience.

My own experience is that the .308 with a good 150 at 2900 or so does indeed shoot flat enough for point-blank aiming out to 300 on bigger game, and kills it pretty neatly as well. I have found the same thing with many similar cartridges. Shoot them in the right place with a good 140-160 grain bullet and they die, whether they are whitetails or moose.

couple of strong endorsements for the 308 winchester!

As a fan and owner, its good to hear

i think modern bullet construction has equalized the differences to a degree

+1

I took my first four bull moose with my .308 and 165 gr. Nosler Partitions. I didn't know any better and apparently the moose didn't either.

1flier

I can't see the killing difference between a 300 Magnum (Winchester and Weatherby - my first two cartridges) and a 30-06.

In addition, I can also spot no difference between my 7mm STW and my 7mm-08 - in regards to how quick it takes animals to drop.

The high-speed ones do make noticeably more bubbley jellied black and maroon coloured meat though - if you are big into "visuals".

I know there are a lot of doubters out there - but I suspect few of those doubters have shoot a lot of game with 308's, 30-06's or 7mm-08's - before they formed their opinions.

High speed magnums are over-rated when it comes to killing things quicker.

I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie and JB. The greatest asset of the 308 is its lesser recoil. Most magnum totin hunters I observe at our clubs' public sight in every year shoot patterns at 100 and are typically lucky to hit the backstop at 200. Especially the big guys. The guys shooting 270s, 308s, and 300-06s don't appear to be afraid of their arms and shoot much better.

The only difference I've determined between elk shot with 308/30-06 and magnum class rounds was the amount of bloodshot meat. That's why my 338WM lives in the back of the safe during the seasons, even though I love it and shoot it better than some others.

Standing by for flames, once again.

you mean you shoot elk regularly with standard calibers?

And from your article:

"...the big virtues of the .300 Weatherby are a flat trajectory, even with the heaviest spitzers, and long-range power...Aside from shooting flat, this load is also quite wind-resistant, a trait often overlooked when choosing a Western hunting load."

What are you saying? That the .300 Wby's virtues don't mean much when hunting or that they only come into play at ranges past 300 yards?

My buddy and his wife manage to take elk with '06 and 7-08 rifles and (gasp) standard Hornady spirepoints. Seems like Elk and his family do all right with the smaller cased rounds, too.

I'm with Charlie on this. I would much rather shoot something that I enjoy shooting; shoot it enough to be familiar with how it behaves at responsible yardages, and make the shot from that platform rather than a manglumboomer that I have to psyche myself to fire.

Indy,

In general, yeah, at under 300 yards the .300 Weatherby's advantages over the .308 (if any) are much less than at over 300. Part of the deal is better bullets.

These days we have 150-grain bullets that will penetrate pretty big game, yet also shoot pretty flat at .308 muzzle velocities. Twenty-five years ago that wasn't the case; a .300 magnum was needed to reach 2900+ at the muzzle with deep-penetrating bullets. These days not nearly as much bullet weight is required.

Now, if there's a distinct possibility of shooting at over 300 yards, I'd rather be using a .300 magnum--or maybe a .270 or 7mm magnum--just so I can use a bullet of higher BC that won't drift as much in the wind.

But out to 300 yards it has been my experience that a good shot with a medium-power cartridge like the .308, 7x57 or .270 will do very well on big game, and that a .300 magnum at those ranges isn't nearly as big an advantage as many hunters think it is.

I haven't found Mr. Sisk to be anything but pretty damned dead-on when he opines on topics such as this.

Charlie's no dummy!

rb

Oh how I wish Allen Day were still here posting (grins).

I believe AussieGunWriter has said the same in differences, or lack thereof, in 308 ctg's and killing effect.

I don't use either one regularly myself, but with others I've been with, I've seen more DRTs with a .300 than a .308. But what's a few yards, give or take.

I have an Uncle-in-law that is a logger. He has a huge advantage over many other hunters in the fact that he scouts ALL YEAR. His daughter is now 20. She's shot an Elk every year since she was old enough to hunt, with a 243... Never had one get away either.

A lot of it is our society... We're Americans dammit (except all the Hosers on the 'Fire) From birth we're programmed to think "If some's good, then more is better, and too much is JUST RIGHT" There might be one guy in 50 that actually NEEDS a 3/4 ton diesel pick-up that makes 600 Ft/Lbs of torque, but 49 just want one. We buy cars that can top out at 160 MPH, but the highest posted speed limit in the land is 85. We buy redundant oober psycho mags (30-378 comes to mind) when a 308 will stack them up just fine. Had it not been for our attitudes, we never would've became a world power in 232 years.

But what makes this country great... I can still drive my beat to crap 1976 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4, with my Montana on the dash, and a mag full of 308 ammo, and you guys can feel free to flame me all you want. Penis envy is for Libtards

Besides, Oobermags have done a great job at keeping the deer heards in the US safe. My Gramma always used to say "Guys that can't hunt, buy a bigger rifle."

Thanks for the endorsement for the .308. I just got a .308 barrel screwed onto an action. I had taken it off, but I realized I had an overabundance of 30 caliber bullets. It was a bit of a waste to have a Hart barrel sitting on the shelf and not being used.

I have been using either a 6mm or 7mm lately.

I thought back over the years about using a reduced load in an 06 and how effective it killed with not a lot of meat damage. A reduced loan killed like a hammer in my .284 as well. I like to eat what I harvest and do not like all the jelly and bruised meat to clean up or let go to waste.

I have magnum rifles that shoot as well or better than the standard calibers. I will not part with them as they shoot so well, but they do not get used much for hunting.

Funny thing, a couple of the guns I do hunt with have 24" barrels so I so not save that by using them to hunt.

Keep the good information exchange!

I don't disagree at all with what Sisk said;nor do I disagree with what JB said about the 270-300 magnums if you anticipate shots past,say 300 yards.The limiting statement of course,is the phrase "...out to 300 yards...",or some other arbitrary distance limitation.If you can assure yourself,absolutely, that you will not shoot an elk past 300 yards,then fine.I have never been on an elk hunt where I could predetermine the distance at which I was to be offered a shot that was within my capabilities.

The same premium bullets that give the standard cartridges elevated performance, can be the problem as velocity drops off at distance because they may not expand as well at long distance from the 308; whereas the higher initial and retained velocity of the bigger cases have the advantage in bullet expansion at long range.

At shorter distances,using a premium bullet,the higher velocity of the magnum case hurts nothing.Said another way, the 300 Weatherby is just as effective INSIDE 300 yards as the 308;and the 300 has all the advantage PAST 300 yards.

All of this assumes,of course, that a guy can shoot equally well with one or the other. I do not agree with the notion that those who use a magnum class rifle, cannot hunt, or are not good hunters, or fine shots.This is myth. I don't make the mistake of categorizing hunters based on the equipment they use; I look more at their ability to use what they have, regardless of what it may be.It is true,though, that a lot of people running around with 300 magnums have no idea of how to get full use from them,and are better off with a 308 or 30/06 that they can shoot.

My rancher buddy in Wyoming has probably killed over 50 elk of all sizes with the 250 Savage,the 270 Winchester, and a few with the 300 Winchester Magnum. He likes the 270 best,but if you ask him,can he see a difference between a 300 magnum and a 270 as distances stretch, he will tell you, absolutely, yes!The 300 just hits harder.(grin).

.

The bow hunters get closer. Are bow hunters better hunters than rifle hunters?

.

no they just have more patience!

JBLEDSOE: Nope; not necessarily!

Open letter to Danadair and others
Dan
Just because I am not a rabid supporter of George Bush, I fall into the classification of what you call a "Libtard". Twenty years ago, my views would have placed me solidly in the middle of the political spectrum, but I am now one of the people you neoconservatives love to hate.
I am a veteran, have spent most of my life working in one capacity or another on public works projects, have raised two handicapped children, and other than a passion for wild women, guns and hunting have led pretty much a law abiding life.
Yet, it's ME that you neoconservatives love to hate, not the drug dealer down at the school selling drugs to your kids, not the scum bags that rip off the military establishment for billions of dollars a year, while vets languish in underfunded hospitals, not the gang members that have taken over our cities, not the corrupt corporate officials that have robbed the workers of the country of their retirements as in the case of Enron, not the corrupt politicians on both sides of the aisle that show nothing but contempt for our constitution, but people like ME that you characterize as "Libtards". Well, I have two college degrees,am a member of Mensa (former, actually) and also was a member of Intel. You can look up what that is, but last I checked, it was a group made up of people that are a long way from being retards.
You name callers are right out of the mold of Tim McVeigh, Hitler's followers, and the followers of Saddam Hussein.
I do not say that lightly. Democracy, the only ideology that I fervently espouse, is based on reasoned debate, sylogistic reasoning and deductive reasoning. ( I am sure you know what all those mean, because you are mentally superior, right?) You, on the other hand, resort to name calling and bullying, simply because your points of view shrink from reason like a cockroach shrinks from light.
I stay out of the Campfire Forum because I hate the neo-Nazi like name calling that goes on there. When you and others come into the gun and/or hunting forums, you should keep politics out of it.
Anybody that feels the need to come in here and indulge in political drive by sniping, the ultimate cheap shot, ends up in my ignore room. I'll discuss differing points of view with anyone, but will not tolerate the childish name calling that you used in this thread.

Fred Royce

I'm in agreement with you Brian as well as JB. To that end i do not own a 'magnum' at the present. Experience as taught me a good alround round to 400yds is a 3006 with a 168TSX at 2900 fps MV wiil do naything an old skool 7mag will do in northern BC. I like the 375 HH but my whelen with 250gr bullets deal with animals in a similiar manner. For me , bigger animal means bigger bullet. 'Cause I have noted know differance in my whelen , with a 250gr bullet at 2450 0r 2680 fps MV, PBR is the only change not killing power or abilitiy to cause distruction.

I have long said that it's been my observation that most rounds and shooters are equal to 300 yds (note I didn't say 301...grin)

Dober

I'd have to agree with Charlie. I think as many of us get older and wiser, we see that horsepower is not what kills animals. It's good sense, good judgement and proper bullet placement.

Continue to shoot your magnums if they make you warm and fuzzy. Me, they just make sore and angry. I'll take the lighter recoiling cartridges like the .308, 7-08, .260, .270 etc. They kill on the sharp end without severely wounding on the other end.

I think some of a person's cartridge selection is age dependant- When I was younger, I yearned for foot pounds and velocity- Every round had to be pushed to the limit and then some.
Now, I tend to use smaller cartridges and also focus less on the rifle and round it's chambered and focus more on the hunting techniques and skills.

Fred

If dead is dead to you, I agree with Charlie, but if you like DRT shots, then the nod goes to the 300 WBY. Having shot over 30 head of game with each of the two disputed calibers has led me to this conclusion. Roy had it right about the energy killing to some extent. A expanding bullet exploding inside a deer from a 3000++ fps impact has a more dramatic effect on game that a 2500 fps impact. This only stands to reason. If you stand by this 308 is as good as a 300 WBY argument straight across the board, then you might as well through the 300 Savage, 30-30 and 30 carbine in there. Each is easily compared to the 308 as it is to the 300. If you don't mind a deer or elk running 30 yds before expiring, then I guess there is no difference, but I have seen more bang-flops with chest cavity shot animals using the 300 than the 308. Now when it comes to elk, I haven't seen ANY bang flops using premium bullets unless the CNS was involved.

They shouldn't have a special season. Throw them in the mix with general gun season and we'll see how things turn out for them.........

Mind reader...



Better yet trade them our gun seasons...

How about we give the bow hunters a special season but they have to use only the technology that was COMMON in the 60's when special seasons for archery were started- Recurve bows, no rangefinders, and so on?
Royce

I think they should use whatever they want to, just like gun hunters.

They can hunt in areas where guns aren't allowed (city limits, etc.), that should be enough.

Outside of youth seasons, "special" seasons are for snobs IMO....especially when they coincide with the rut to the exclusion of others.

Sorrie Charie, I like ya but you're wrong when it comes to elk.

Having killed multiple elk with both.

No 308 on the planet is going to match up to a 300 WBY 200 grain bullet at 3,000 fps. Especially on a public land hunt where the elk are all hyped up.

From 50 yard jump shots in the timber to 300 yard hits.

I've DRT'd them like a hammer with the 300 NOT the 308. I've passed on shots with the 308.

No comparison.

I don't think that follows. For a given target animal there seems to be a threshold above which it doesn't matter too much which cartridge was used given all the usual caveats about proper bullets, shot placement et cetera. The argument is whether or not the 308 is above the threshold. Just because a 30-30 is as close to a 308 as the 308 is to a 300 Wby. in velocity does not imply that if the 308 is over the threshold then the 30-30 must be too.

BTW, I'm not saying the 308 is or isn't over the threshold.

The statement made in the quote is not true; you can see this if you examine what it is that kills game animals. You can switch them off right away with a central nervous system hit. You can kill them a bit slower by damaging enough tissue so they bleed out and then die. The bullet passing through the animal crushes the tissue in its direct path, and also propels bone and tissue outward from its path and this also adds to the wound channel. A bullet with more energy thus has more effectiveness, all else being equal.

I have always thought that the .300 Magnums were for shooting 200 gr bullets. Lord knows I shot enough 190 gr Sierra Match Kings at 600 and 1,000 yard targets to understand how heavy and good shape work, and 180s from my .308s at animals. Although I mostly shoot an '06 now with good 165 gr game bullets.

jim

I usually shoot two elk a year and they are generally cows. The .300 Wby was my go to elk rifle for the longest span of one gun use, about 10 years. In that time I "dumped" four elk on there nose. None of those shots were neck/head/spine shots, three were frontal shots @ 200 yards or less and the forth was a broad side heart shot @ 422 yards (go figure?). Three were shot with 200 A-frames one frontal with 180 A-frame. This was my bullet of choice until the price of components went thru the roof. I tabled the weatherby/A-frame combo that worked so well and built a 308 & 30-06 . Now I shoot cheaper Speer HC's and have tried nosler 180 PT seconds. On standard broad side shots I haven't seen any difference in lethality or "shock". I have not taken any frontal shots on any elk with the standard 30's for comparison, nor have I shot any 1000 lb. bulls. I just can't imagine there would be much difference between a 180 gr bullet crossing the top of a cow or bulls heart, or from a 308 win or 300 Wby. I don't feel handicapped by the standard cartridges lower velocity either as we need to know where our rifle/load hits(thru practice)no matter what the cartridge.I agree with Charlie.

There is no doubt the .300 Weaherby "hits harder," however you want to interpret that, and I believe Charlie would agree. I suspect he was saying that a .308 will kill big game just as dead as .300 Weatherby will, and for many people more effectively, since they will shoot it better.

We can talk about DRT's all we want, but I haven't noticed any big game anmals running off vast distances or being wounded when hit in the right place with a .308 out to 300 yards (or for that matter over 300 yards). The animals hit with a .300 magnum of whatever type very well might drop animals on average 11.2 or 17.6 yards sooner. I have no idea, and neither do most people, since we tend to remember the spectacular kills better.

I have seen a raghorn bull elk shot through the lower chest (taking off part of the heart) at right about 300 yards with a 200-grain Nosler Partition .300 Weatherby factory load walk off for 60 yards before even stopping, let alone dropping. Like any other example of one (whether a DRT or whatever) this doesn't prove anything--except that nothing is guaranteed any time we take a shot, or even make a good one.

I have also seen a pronghorn run--not walk or trot--75 yards after being shot with a .300 WSM and a 150-grain Ballistic Tip that made a football-sized hole in the buck's chest. I have seen the same thing with an 80-pound springbok that also had a huge hole in its chest from a 260-grain Ballistic Tip from a .375 H&H. In each case the range wasn't much more than 100 yards, if that. If a bigger hole makes a consistent difference, how do we explain these things?

Yeah, magnums tend to make a bigger hole, but not as much bigger as lot of people like to believe, especialy when the people haven't actually measured any holes, or paced off how far animals actually went after shooting. And even when magnumsmake a bigger hole, it still takes a little while for blood pressure to drop from heart/lung shots.

All I can say is that I have seen quite a few big game animals larger than deer shot with various cartridges--probably 95% at under 300 yards, because that is where we shoot most big game. The ones shot in the right place with .308's or 7x57's or .270's or whatever died pretty darn quickly, and that is about all we can count on, no matter what cartridge we're shooting.

JB,

Quit talking common sense...my personal experiences and prejudices always trump facts or anyone else's experiences, no matter how extensive they might be.

A great post by the way!

Time to get out the Swedish moose study.....grins

I think Charlie was both right and wrong at the same time if I may say so (perhaps I should have been a politician-perish the thought). I can see his point but there are just too many factors involved or aspects, if you will, for "blanket statements." I'm sure he didn't think he was making one or intended to do so. Yet, he did expect some would take it apart with a tweezers like as has been done and I'm contributing to for my afternoon's entertainment.

When it comes to picking things apart, I'm always reminded of Jesus' statement about, "straining out the gnats but swallowing a camel." To a seasoned hunter and rifle shot, the difference between using either the 308 or the Wby would be like "swallowing a gnat" but for many hunters and rifle shooters I've seen, the difference would be like "swallowing the camel."

That makes neither a better choice than the other depending on the who, what, and where.

I'm glad I could add such clarity this afternoon without answering anything .

Gdv

Gdv,
You should run for office!

In my opinion if we are talking deer there is probably no difference. Large elk at 300 yards I'd give the 300 the nod. A very large bear at 30 feet determined to take large chunks of meat out of me I'd pick up the 300 wishing it was my 375 H&H.

Doc

Snap shooting elk in high timber where all the elk has to do is head downhill, usually their bed is right next to an escape ledge.
Shot elk can run a long ways downhill, add public land hunting with LOTS of hunters and I'll take the 300 Hammer. My DRT odds just went up 10 fold or more for all my experience is concerned.

Private land hunting or where there is a low hunter ratio using an outfitter/guide to lead me up to a shot, the 308 will do.

I'm a bit schizophrenic on this issue, more and more liking light, little rifles chambered in standard cartridges but am also convinced that I wouldn't have chilled my last two big bulls with standard cartridges because I don't think I would have tried.

I�ve never owned a .300 Weatherby Mag but I have owned a .300 Win Mag and a .300 WSM.
So I will agree with Charlie and JB on this one. What I did notice was a lot less blood shot meat with my .308 Win and my .30-06.



Mark, I will agree and disagree with your statement, at least with most shooters east of the Mississippi River.
Your statement should read, ��that most rounds are equal to 300 yds and most shooters are equal to 100 yds and after that things get real fffy.�
__________________
The Ol� Man said, �Son, when you think you�re close enough to make the shot get closer.�

I agree with this assessment, but unlike some of the others, I have yet to see an elk drop to the shot when the spine or brain was not hit. I have killed ALL my elk at 100 yds or less. I saw NO difference in the performance of the 200 grainers that I started with and the 165s (X bullets) that I used on the last 5 or 6. They ALL ran at least 30 yds. The only WBY killed elk that ran more than 40 was a 6x6 that I shot head on in the chest cavity at about 90ish yards. It ran straight at me and turned broadside at 10 yards, still motoring just fine. I assumed that I had missed it. My buddy stepped in front of me and piled it up with a neck shot at 10 yds with his 30-338 and promptly put his tag on it. When I opened him up I found gallons of blood in the chest cavity. He told me that it was too bad, it was his bull! I found a 1" hole through the middle of the heart (lower chambers) and the mushroomed 200 grain Barnes softpoint lodged in the right hindquarter!

But for deer, I have had most of them drop at the shot. I guess the threshold is met for a 150# animal, it most certainly is NOT for an 900# one!

I,like many people, naturally base their opinions and preferences on experiences. I haven't had too many good ones with 308 killed deer and elk! I guess it's simply a matter of coincidences that brings me to this conclusion as the hard data would not support my feelings for sure!

My son's 200# calf elk took 30 seconds to succumb to a 150 Corelokt out of his 308 last year. It went down within 5 seconds but still kicked for a while! Elk are tough critters!

BINGO.

Confidence matters.

BMT

I'm not one for high speed magnums, but the one advantage they do offer is to be able to shoot heavy bullets at reasonable velocities.

Hawk,

For those who are not familiar of what it is you speak of:

Almost 10,000(!!!) Moose - shot in Sweden, where the distance between the shot and the fall of the game is noted - were studied. The study found not two dozen yards difference between a 6.5 X 55 (the lightest caliber commonly used in Sweden on Moose) and the 460 Weatherby (the biggest rifle, as I recall) and looking at every other cartridge used too - in between the extremes.

In short, our own personal shooting histories, however vast and however liberal our local big game laws might be - pale in significance - when compared to this study.

In short, the Swedish study of rifle effectiveness found - that no matter what caliber or cartridge was used - if the animal was poorly hit - they go a long way before they fall - if they fall at all. If the animal was hit with a well placed bullet, they fell quickly - and it didn't matter if the shooter was shooting the moose with a puny little 6.5 or a big macho 460. Give or take a few yards - any moose well hit with any big-game cartridge or caliber, and a good bullet will die within a few paces of any other moose - on average - if the sample is big enough.

All other findings - by individuals should be considered (in comparison) as being formed by "statistically too small a sample to be considered accurate" and should be accorded the appropriate weight of a statistically invalid study - when compared with studies that looked at the results of almost 10,000 animals of one single species - and a big tough animal, at that.

As noted previously by Steelhead, "Drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies." That certainly is the main portion of the equation.

But, looking at Nosler #6 Reloading Guide reveals velocities to be:

Cartridge 165 gr. 180 gr.
308 Winchester 2910 fps 2718 fps
30-06 3002 fps 2872 fps
300 H&H 3168 fps 3023 fps
300 Win Mag. 3290 fps 3160 fps
300 Weatherby 3242 fps 3198 fps

For most hunting the 308 will certainly do well, especially with premium bullets, but any extra 300-400 fps will deliver more energy with the same bullet and that's got to do more damage.

A bullet with more energy than another bullet, won't necessarily do more damage when it hits an animal's important organs. That is, if the bullet from the smaller round - was sufficient to penetrate the animal after expanding. If the slower bullet did fully penetrate, after expanding, then it did all any bullet could do.

A hole through an organ - is a hole through an organ.

A bullet with an excess of energy - for the job required of it - merely uses some of its energy on the air or rocks or vegitation behind the shot animal.

The expanse of jellied black and purple goo surrounding the bullet hole - doesn't count - as such a characteristic doesn't mean that a shot animal will die any faster - than one lacking that characteristic.

Although, there is no predicting as to whether such a characteristic may, or may not, impress the hunter.

So, what does DRT mean? Democrats Really Tax?

Dead Right There. I first heard this while investigating fatal car accidents. The real bad ones were- DRT.

I guess my only comment is that,if there is no difference between various cartridges,and "bigger/faster" does not count,then how come African pro's or others who deal with large, truculent animals all the time,use things like 375's 416's,etc.?

Somewhere along the "scale",caliber,frontal area, bullet weight and velocity must start to matter,no? Where is the break-point?

BTW I agree that a 270/7mm bullet from a 308 or 30/06 case kills anything on the continent;based on the moose study,we should be perfectly safe taking these cartridges against brown bear and cape buffalo;but we don't.How come?

I'm looking forward to the answer of your question Bob.

1AK: Should be fun.....

It isn't that hard. Just because two types of animal may weigh the same doesn't mean they have the same toughness and temperament. I don't see too many folks hauling out 500 NE doubles to go after Bullwinkle.

The question might be is/isn't the 375 H&H above the threshold on Cape Buffalo the same way a 308 is/isn't above the threshold on moose?

BobinNH
Good question- The interesting thing about studying terminal ballistics is that the more you study, the more contradictions one seems to unearth.
One thing I have noticed is that those people who's lives depend on stopping large animals is that they tend to go for more bullet weight and more frontal area, not more velocity.
My guess is that as one goes to more bullet weight and more frontal area, there is more likelyhood that the bullet will drill a straight line hole through said critter, and that on a corner to corner shot, the wound channel will be a lot longer and somewhat wider from a 375 than from a 7/08.
The straight line is important because you don't want the bullet veering off and going down the side of the rib cage instead of through the chest cavity.
The longer and deeper part increases the odds of clipping something, a nerve, artery or maybe part of the central nervous system, that will convince this big ugly animal to leave the hunter alone and go seeking last rites from the nearest priest.
If we shoot an elk and it goes 39 yards instead of 36 yards, it is of little consequence most of the time, and under the worst circumstances, might mean a nasty retrieval.
When a pro hunter has to stop a dangerous animal, if that animal goes an extra yard or two, that extra yard becomes very significant, because it might be over him and/or his client before said client has ponied up their last fees.
This is purely speculation on my part.
Fred

"BTW I agree that a 270/7mm bullet from a 308 or 30/06 case kills anything on the continent;based on the moose study,we should be perfectly safe taking these cartridges against brown bear and cape buffalo;but we don't.How come? "

There is history to consider as well- both in the tradition of British and Continental hunters using really big cartidges on African and Asian game as well as the fact that relatively small cartidges- .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .25-35- were seen as hot numbers against large North American game when they were first introduced.

Our expectations often color our perceptions of results.

I just returned from a public land elk hunt in Colorado. I carried a 300 Weatherby but I wasn't convinced it was really necessary. Now I believe it was a good choice. It was hard to get a shot under 400 yards. It was always windy. There were to many hunters to spend much time on a stalk. We had elk spooked away from us three different times while we were making a stalk. We got a bull, but only because we managed to find him in the timber after he had been spooked out from under us. Even then, all we got was a long cross canyon shot. For that country and those conditions, make mine a magnum.

Fred: It may be speculation,but it's as good speculation as I have heard!

Mathman: You're right; I guess it isn't really hard

Marc: That's the reality for me. Good post.There is no harm in shooting the biggest thing you're comfortable with,and can shoot well. If that's a 7/08 or 270,fine;you have enough to do the job. OTOH,there is no harm in using something more powerful,and flat shooting if it gives you confidence....

Marc,

That's the reality of elk hunting other than that I've read a lot of speculation here.

Relative to cartridge and animal size any here remember when the 458 win mag first came out it did not have enough velocity to do the job? Winchester had to speed it up to make it work.

I also don't buy into that Africa's animals are tougher than NA.

It also depends on where you hunt elk--though with the high numbers of elk in general these days, more are found in open country.

I grew up in Montana, where I still live, and in most places where I hunted elk when younger it was rare to get a shot much ove 100 yards, because most of the elk were in timber. This is changing with the numbers of elk, but in general where I hunt public land shorter shots are still the norm.

I have also hunted elk in Colorado and New Mexico, and have seen more elk at long range in those places. So it all depends.

As for African hunters using bigger rounds for, say, Cape buffalo, well in all African countries that I know of there are laws about minimm cartridges, most created a long time ago. In general these say 9.3mm or .375.

This doesn't mean that with today's bullets a .338 or even a .300 magnum or .30-06 won't kill a buffalo. It will, and I know people who have done it, a number of times. Some of them did it while doing control shooting, where laws don't apply. One PH I know has killed a bunch of buffalo with 180 Partitions from a .30-06, some with frontal shots, which accoridng to some authorities is next to impossible with Partitions. But my friend has done it over and over.

I also know some sport hunters who have used .338's and .300 magnums on buffalo, with the blessing of the PH, whether it was legal or not. They all killed their buffalo.

Phil Shoemaker also says that he is happy to guide brown bear hunters who can shoot a .30-06--and Phil guides in a part of Alaska where some of the biggest bears live. Phil even used the .30-06 as a back-up for some years on brown bear.

Please note that I am not saying there aren't difference between cartridges, or that sometimes a bigger, faster and/or fatter bullet won't make a difference. But bullet placement is still the primary factor in all big game shooting, and when we start arguing over differences in cartridges we are talking about the lesser part of the equation.

Marc-

Those are exactly the conditions I would opt for a maggy over a standard: Long range - over 300 yds. - open country, windy (gusty), spooky animals; these are circumstances where I feel more confident with a .340 (put in your maggy of choice) than with my '06. I know, I know - The moose study and I know - put a boolit in the right place and they tip over. But you got to get it there first....

Gdv

JB: Spot on. As usual with these "killing power" discussions, there are very few "wrong" answers,because everyone has different experiences,and in truth, we are all, collectively, very well-armed! Being able to shoot is the key...

I'll buy those answers.


and I've often stated most animals I've killed could have been killed with an '06 as to where they were felled with either a 7 mag or .338


I just came of age during the magnum mania of the 60's-70's and bought in hook line and sinker.


certainly agree that shot placement is paramount, always has been always will be.


have to wonder though if around campfires in the Middle Ages if guys didn't discuss the merits of a thicker heavier sword versus a lighter more wieldable one?

I'm on a mission when the dust clears financially and if I'm still standing to have either a .308 or 7/08 in a quest for something lighter, my 7 mag is 7 and 1/4 pounds all dressed up and ready to dance.

I suppose the truth of the matter is I've burnt a bit of unnecessary powder, created more muzzle blast than was necessary and taken a bit more jolt to my shoulder than needed by using my magnums.


but truthfully, I've enjoyed them, even range work and never suspected I had "hard" recoiling systems till logging onto the campfire here.

will say as I've said before I defer to Phil Shoemaker's experience here in hunting and things gunny.

but will say from personal experience, never went in to sort out a bear and wished "dang .338 wish it was an '06" .458 maybe


rare circumstances I guess where bigger is better, rare circumstances when you will need a handgun to defend yourself against the two legged variety.


when/if those rare circumstances happen you won't be sorry if you have a tool applicable to the job. YMMV

In a perfect world, that would be the final word on the matter.

Scott

The 308 comment means, to me, that the 308 is "enough" gun... plenty of gun. I can agree with that in no small part based on the testimony here.

But, it does not mean it is equal to the 300 in every way. Some mentioned use of heavier bullets, flatter shooting and added confidence, all legitimate.

I can tell you... when you drive two days to get to your hunting in unfamiliar territory and have no idea what shot will present itself you tend to go with the bigger round.

My regular hunting partner is in Wyoming right now with his 30-378 WBY/brake /Pacnor/ 180 TSX/300 yd sight in for deer. Why he has a 30-378 is a long story but he wanted to draw first blood with it. After three days and a long uphill stalk he got his first reasonable shot at 411 yds. Being very winded, his first shot went low. The guide yelled "it went low, aim over the back, shoot". Hindsight is 20/20 but he collected himself, held on air as demanded and shot over! The buck disappeared over the ridge.

This magnum didn't get the job done but I can tell you he wouldn't have grabbed his 270 the next morning. I can assure you that he still saw the 300 mag as the best long range tool in his kit. The next day he dropped a lesser buck running dead away at 286. Once again the guide yelling "shoot". The TSX ran back to front dropping the buck in a heap.

My opinion - the 308 will do the job on any North American game, but if I am in big bear country in brushy Alasks country, I want something that starts with .4xx and has a belt!

Think of it like the security blanket my grandson sleeps with; it makes him feel better.

I think it's a case of If we build it, they will buy it!

Also, willing to bet that more brown bears have been killed by a .30-06 than any other cartridge, and maybe more than all others.


ETA: Don't have a citation regarding '06 vs brownies. Wish I did though.

From what I have seen with my own eyes, when using like bullets a magnum typical tears up more tissue.

I don't have a lot of experience on game with either the .308 Winchester or the various .300 Magnums, but I have seen a lot of shooters at local ranges with both. There's no question that the guys with .308s have a greater tendency to hit the target with some regularity than those with .300 Mags. A lot of guys show up with .300 Magnums, but not many of them can shoot them worth a damn. IMO, most (but not all) of the guys I've seen shooting .300 Magnums would be more effective using a .308 instead. And they kick less. And they cost less to shoot. And the rifle is likely lighter.

But then, everybody knows you need a .300 Magnum to kill an elk. So virtually everybody who goes elk hunting from my neck of the woods gets one. I've heard of at least one elk guiding outfit that more or less requires clients to use .300 Magnum minimum.

If you can use the power effectively, then all is well. But with great power comes great responsibility-- to learn how to control it!

Good shooting!

This IS the point. I will also admit the 300 Wby is one of the best all around elk cartridges as it kills as well as the 30-06.

I didn't read all the posts so I hope I'm not rehashing stuff here .I would agree with Charlies statement, although it may sound like I don't, because I have seen a difference in the killing effect of a 308 and a 300 WBY inside of 300 yards.If you load the Weatherby to maximum velocity with 150 Sierra's the effect on a 120lb whitetail is quite stunning.It's also something I wouldn't do again , not a lot left for the freezer. I also think you could reverse the statement to say the "average" shooter would probably have a higher kill rate beyond 300 yards with a 308 than a 300 WBY .It's just much more shootable for most shooters. I'd bet even most experienced shooters would have a higher pecentage of hits at 500 yards with a 308 than any of the big magnums . I have a 300 & 338 RUM and a 300 & 338 Win Mag. But I have to shoot them regularly to be use to the recoil. From about 30-06 down is much more enjoyable to shoot.

Ironbender: I think you're right about the 30/06 and brown bears,but really don't know.Brown bears make me nervous so I've used a 375 myself.But we've always known that a 30/06 is among a handful of the very best things a guy can own

I hate to break this to some of you, but there are folks who are perfectly comfortable shooting a .300. Before I got a real job .300s were the little stuff that I shot, for my job.

I have had this discussion with Charlie and many others over the years. The most important thing is shot placement. Hit the animal in the foot with anything and you lose him! The next most important is the bullet. My personal favorite is the Barnes "X" bullet, least favorite (for big game) is the Nosler Balistic Tip. There are MANY good bullets on the market today, they just need to be properly selected for the intended game. The least important is what that bullet is fired from, assuming that enough velocity remains at impact to drive that bullet into the vitals. Many bullets pass clear through the animal or are caught by the hide on the far side. More velocity would not make that animal die any faster. I just got back from an elk hunt where a hunting partner used my rifle to kill his elk at 350 yards. The bullet, a 140 grain Barnes TSX, was recovered in the far leg after breaking both shoulders. I shot mine at 450 yards with the same bullet, and it passed clear through. Both animals died within a few feet of where they were hit. The rifle was a 280 Rem Ackley Improved (built by Charlie Sisk), which I'm sure many people would consider unsuitable for elk. Our guide had never seen elk go down so quickly. I've seen too many hunters use too large of a gun (for them) and were afraid to shoot it! Many will even get someone else to sight it in for them. How can thay expect to make a good shot on an animal? I have big guns, but they tend to stay in the safe. If you can shoot the larger cartridges well (and practice with them) by all means use them. Many, and I think most, can not and would do far better with one of the "puny" cartridges!

The advantage that magnums have is that their extra velocity reduces wind drift at long range -- but on game I have never been able to tell a difference in how fast they killed between the 308 and the 30-06 - nor between the 30-06 and the various 300's.

Your comment, which is similar to Sisk's, would mean that we would all be better off using a .308 and practicing shooting with it a lot. Practice is much easier than with a .300 Magnum because (a) the recoil is much less and (b) the ammo is much cheaper. The extra practice would sure help shot placement. And also barrel life is a lot better with a .308 if you shoot a lot.

Also, I don't think the wind drift difference is very important at any range inside of 300 yards.

I just returned from a moose hunt in Northern Ontario, an area that is larger than many African countries and most US states. My buddy and I saw no moose, but lots of tracks. They were in deep bogs and small swamps, of which there are thousands. There are also hundreds of clear cuts. The possibilities were endless. It was like a chess game. During 5 1/2 days we hunted thick timber, bogs, fringes of swamps and small lakes. But also favored clear cuts. We hunted from 8am to 7pm. Every day.

The closest we came was a fresh set of tracks that crossed the logging road we were on. They may have been seconds old to 30 minutes old as we were returning from early morning scouting and the tracks were not there 30 minutes earlier. The tracks were like the moose was on radar, headed in a straight line for the tip of a lake. Upon arrival, no moose in sight. He (she?) went through dense timber and brush at times nearly impossible for humans, let alone moose! I can assure you, neither of us were carrying 308s, or 300s!

With ranges anywhere from a few feet to over 600yds, a magnum was called for, and a big one at that!

On the way home (14 hour trip one way), at a truck stop, we ran into guys who had hunted another area. They saw four moose and got a shot on one of them at over 400 yds, with a 308 I believe - a wounding shot. They never found the bull and went home as empty handed as we did. I will never hunt moose under those conditions with any caliber less than a .338 magnum, and my preference would be at least a 375 Ruger or H&H. BTW, mine was a 458 Win. I think it was too intimidating for the moose and that's why we never found them. My friend was toting his 350 WSM.

I did have my 300 Win along for very long shots, if we knew we would be hunting clear cuts. The load was 190 Hor. BTs at 3065fps The 458 load was 350 TSXs at 2710 fps.

BTW, regarding the Swedish moose survey: the most effective cartridge used, by a significant amount, was the 358 Norma Magnum. Check it out. It surpassed the 375 H&H by quite a lot. My friend's 350 WSM is it's equivalent.

The idea when moose hunting is to call the moose over to a winch cable length away.

I sometimes use a 338WM or a 308Norma moose hunting,but it's mostly a 30-06.

I got a kick out a couple of fellow hunters' remarks "That's why I use a 300WM" .We were hunting where a hunter week before got tag-teamed by a couple of grizzly boars.The other one was when we were looking across a swamp.Factory 300WM 180, is 2900 isn't it? well my handloaded 30-06 is 2750.That's less than 2" difference at 400yards

I also believe that I'm in full (near full) agreement with Charlie, Phil, JB, et al. This was something that came up in another thread a couple of weeks back in regards to adding a 300 WSM to a hunter's cabinet when he already had an '06 and another of the .308 ilk. I suggested a .338 or .375 if he really wanted to add to his line of weapons (as I recall moose and grizzly hunting was mentioned), otherwise the 30-06 with the right loads would work just fine.

In my opinion, when shooting inside of 250 yards or so, the difference between a .308 Win/30-06 or 30-06/.300 Wby Mag is very insignificant. Shot placement and bullet weight / bullet construction which matches both the game species and cartridge is far more paramount.

Bill

I agree with Phil 110%

I have owned a 300 Weatherby and I presently own 3 each 300 Winchesters and a couple of 300 RUM's. I have had as many DRT kills with a 30-06 on ELK as I have with any other caliber. I just returned from New Mexico on a public land Elk hunt with my 338 Lapua loaded with 300 grain bullet at 2800 FPS I made a one shot kill but not a DRT despite all 4750 FPE at about 150 yard impact. FPE is not an efficient way to measure lethality IMHO

That's moose for you!

On the Kenai, my partner tracked a moose and from some high ground watched it cross a bog ("casually") and come out the other side in a very few minutes.

After spending a significant portion of an hour getting only half-way across that bog, my partner aborted the stalk and came back out of the bog.

I had the same kind of experience with a herd of bighorns. I watched them side-hill across a cliff, from one drainage to the next, in less than a minute. I side-hilled across that cliff in something like an hour, with nothing to show for it but dirt under my lower lip � and went back the long way around.

Sometimes, there's just no way that you can get closer to even undisturbed game. Neither Bob's moose nor my bighorns knew that we were there.

fwiw & imho,
I will only say this... Every hunter can lose game despite his best efforts. I also want to be the last person to seperate hunters into good/bad or better/worse and hence open the antigunners Pandora's Box.

That said we have an abundance of whitetail deer on our properties and have this year, more than any before, opened up the land to the public on a per person basis. There have been four long time bow hunters and all of them have something in common. Buzzards. As in buzzards circling for several days after they leave and placed that "perfect shot" but lost the deer. One, a close friend, shot at dusk and tracked until 2 AM with the help of others, deer dogs, and blood lights. He lost another on Virginia's Eastern Shore two weeks before...

I had, up until this experience, one type of hunter I would not let hunt my property under any circumstances and they were dog hunters. This distaste came from finding a Buck Dear exhausted on the side of the road more than a few years ago with Dear Dogs tearing at the animal while it was too tired to run and no "hunters" in sight. I was not about to watch the dogs tear an alert animal to pieces while it watched. I returned to the truck brought a 1911 back and dispatched the animal. A humane kill is part of hunting ethics. May have ruined the dogs and quite honestly I don't care. The Animal deserves to be dispatched as efficiently as possible. Whether that be a .308 Winchester placed perfectly at 200 yards or a .338 Lapua at 600 yards. If the Hunter is capable of the shot and putting the animal down as quickly as possible he has my respect and permission to hunt. Those who have Deer Hounds, and after this year a Bow, need not apply...fwiw & imho.

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

downwind,

The factory MV for the 300 WM is a nominal 2960fps, and the high energy loads from Hornady and Federal is 3100 fps, and since you cite handloads for your 30-06, my handloads for the 300WM with 180s is normally 3160 fps (Nosler Manual -easy to duplicate). That's 300fps faster than your load, or 150 yards.

As to calling them within the range you describe, in the area we hunted that rarely works since the rut is well past it's prime. Nevertheless, it was tried, believe me. I was describing moose hunting 1400 klms from my home, and time was of the essence. We hunted hard 10 to 11 hrs per day. It's not possible for me to just walk out my back door and hunt moose. I can go an hour from home and find them but tags for adult moose in south-central Ontario are near impossible to get unless you belong to a hunting party of about 12. In Northern Ontario (WMU 15B)I could get a bull tag every other year. But that's a long way to go for moose, and costly. I just can't do that every second year.

That's the reason I tote "moose guns" and not "deer" guns.

Regardless of the game or the cartridge, most guys shouldn't even attempt anything over 300 yds. I've had quite a few guys fire at targets on my 300 meter range and miss the two by four foot target board. Never mind the piece of printer paper they were supposed to hit.
For those who are capable and who understand their limitations, they can successfully shoot at longer ranges with the help of a good rangefinder. They would likely do as well with a 308 as anything else.
The really neat thing about the 308 is that it can truly be all things if such is desired. Want a lightweight hunting rifle to carry for sheep? It's pretty easy to make a 6 1/2 pound 308 that will carry well, shoot well, and have enough power should the unwelcome grizzly make his appearance (happens here).
How about a long range target rifle? It's no problem to build a sub 1/2 moa 308 which will turn in good scores as a fullbore rifle or in "F" class.
Varmints? a well built 8 pound 308 will be a fine varmint rifle for coyotes with 155 Palma bullets. 125 grain bullets at 3100 fps reach out surprisingly well on tunnel dwelling rodents.
A 308 can even come very close to being competitive in short range BR if the shooter can handle it.
I think the 308 is one of the most versatile yet under-appreciated rounds out there.
I recently built a semi- heavy 308 one a pre-64 action for a fellow. Nothing special; it was just a #5 contoured chromoly barrel on an old featherweight action, trued as best I could. Bedded in a kind of pretty peice of Bastogne, it produced sub 1/2 inch groups so reliably the customer is practically bored with it.
I think Charlie Sisk is right! GD

If you get a change to read Roy Weatherby's 1948 journals where he hunted Africa and took a .308, .30/06 and the .300 Weatherby to compare, you could bruise your ego if you are not flexible or truth oriented.

Roy's notes indicate similar results if my memory is correct.


The simple fact is the .308 is a relatively easy shooting cartridge so bullet placement is more often very good. couple that with bullets made for the .30/06 and they become a tad better or lean more towards a premium performers in the .308 so a more consistent and reliable result occurs.

I have never known a .308 user to leave the cartridge nor slander it in any way. It always is an imminently sensible choice for a light mountain rifle.

JW

I have used a 30-06 quite a lot in my life and I have never felt that a 300 killed any better

There are guys I know that shoot magnums that will tout the superiority of the magnums over 308's, 30-06's, etc., despite all evidence to the contrary. They seem to have the ability to accept only evidence that supports their belief and reject whatever refutes their belief. They seem to see what they want to see.

A good friend of mine goes on about his 300UM when it DRT's a caribou but manages to forget the previous caribou that took 3 rounds to kill (all due to shot placement).

Since I've know him he's shot three bears with the UM and lost two. In the same time, I've shot six with a 308 or 30-06 and never lost one. Yet he still goes on about how much better the UM kills...?

Another guy I know talks about how much better his 300UM kills and how flat it shoots compared to (even) the 300WM. Yet when I ask him about the load he's using, I find he's loading the UM to 300WM levels...

If I point any of this out, they seem to be offended by the facts and dismiss them out of hand. It reminds me of talking to religous fanatics.

It seems that most of the objections and arguments regarding the 300 magnums vs the standard cartridges center on shot placement and the ability of the shooter as opposed to focusing on the issues regarding which are inherently better "killers".

This is probably as it should be but has nothing whatever to do with the issue;what can be refered to as a "red herring".In comparing any cartridge/bullet combo we have to assume all things are equal,including bullet placement,construction,etc. While it's difficult to have everything the same for each shot,we can draw some conclusions.

We can conclude, for example, that a 308 has enough raw "power"(whatever that means) to kill effectively at 300 yards;we can also conclude that a 300 Weatherby has the same ability.Using the same bullets,at some point in its' ballistic life(distance from muzzle),a 300 Weatherby "becomes" a 308;this just happens farther away,while it happens "at the muzzle" of a 308.

Ditto a 22-250 and a 22 rimfire.We know,intuitively, unless we are dolts,that a 50 gr bullet from a 22-250 blows large holes in woodchucks ,and disintegrates PD's,while the little 22 rimfire just sort of kills them,and not always all that quickly.How does this happen?Through higher velocity,of course.This logic seems to be lost, or ignored, in these conversations about standard and magnum cartridges,as if the extra 200-400 fps generated by the larger cases have no significance whatsoever.This is an easy trap to fall into because while ballistics change,game animals do not,and are relatively "easy" to kill with about anything we have available that can be called a big game cartridge.So Sisk's statement is right, as far as it goes.

But are you going to catch me using a 308 on a long-planned and expensive(in time or money)elk hunt?No.If I have to deal with a long shot(or short)at a bull I have waited a long time to shoot,and I have issues regarding distance, wind terrain, etc. to deal with,do I want a 300 Weatherby or a 308 in my hands? If I am using a tough premium bullet and want to be SURE it expands adequately at long distance,am I more likely to use a 308 or a 300 Weatherby? To me, it's an easy answer.With equally accurate rifles, I am just as likely to hit where I want with a 300 Weatherby as a 308.The 308 won't even make it to the airport.

Sisk may be right,but it's only half of the question,so you can't give a complete answer.When,exactly, was the last time you knew at what distance you were going to shoot your elk?

The longest shot I've made on game was with a .308. 376 yards. Bedded mulie buck. 165 partition meets spine at the base of the neck. DRT.

A lot of guys like the idea of the extra MPBR and less wind drift that comes with more velocity, but few utilize it in my experience. Practice putting holes in stuff at whatever range you plan to shoot to and you will have dead critters, regardless of your cartridge selection. Drop is easy, wind less so. I'm not much for MPBR. I'll take ranging and dialing or ranging and dotz any day.

As far as bigger cases go, I think they're great...for launching bigger bullets. My next project will be SM Sako re-barreled to 35 WSM. But then all I want to do is launch fat, heavy bullets at the same 2700 FPS my .308 launches 165's at.

In the end it's really simple.



But there will always be folks who think they need a .300 ultra or Winny or Weatherby or a 7mm of whatever magnum stripe to kill midwestern whitetails.

To each his own. I agree with Charlie.

AussieGunWriter, Did Roy W really write that in 1948? Seems the 308Win was spawned later than that. Did you mean 1958?
No matter when he wrote about it I'll bet he had only good to say of it.

Bob,

I agree with you. This is exactly why I've killed far more large species of game with a 300 Win, 300 Wby, 338 Win or 375 than I have with a 308 Win or 30-06. I simply choose to use a weapon that I know will do what it takes in most all situations/all probable ranges. So, while I also agree that there is little difference between an '06 and a 300 mag at closer ranges; I feel that a hunter could be well-served by shooting the more powerful weapon --- if the hunter can shoot it well and is generally comfortable with it.

Bill

Bill:We are on the same page. I firmly believe in bullet placement,and that horse power does not make up for the right bullet in the right place.That said,a 300 Weatherby starts a 200 gr bullet over 3000 fps, faster than a 308 can muster with a 150. No one is going to convince me they are equal at any distance,particularly at the longish distances sometimes encountered in some western elk and other big game hunting.
There may not be much difference between the cartridges on Texas or mid-western whitetails,inside 300 yards,but as a general-pupose big game rifle, the 308 simply cannot sit in the same company as a 300 Weatherby.
These differences of opinion on magnum cartridges always follow a similar pattern; many of the small cartridge advocates automatically assume that:

a)all 300 magnum shooters can't shoot(BS);
b)Magnum advocates try to make up for lousy bullet placement with horsepower(more BS)
c)The higher velocity and heavier bullets from the magnum case make no difference(more and more BS)
d)believes that the extra bullet weight and velocity of the magnum case contribute nothing to the killing equation(equal dose of BS)
e)308's are more accurate than 300 magnums cause you can shoot tighter groups with them(when was the last time you got to shoot a "group" on a big game animal?)
f) 300 magnum shooters can't hunt and try to make up for hunting inadequacies by using a more powerful cartridge.(This one REALLY cracks me up).

There is this "creeping",underlying snob-mentality running through all this that a guy somehow occupies a higher moral ground if he uses a smaller cartridge in lieu of a bigger one,even where the bigger one is clearly superior.

I've seen elk take hits from 30/06's and 300 Weatherby's/Winchesters at over 300 yards;some shots approaching 500.Nobody is going to convince me there is no difference...

I've been hanging around experienced big game hunters since I was in my late teens.Some of these guys have shot more big game than many on here have even seen.Until I got on the Campfire, I never heard ONE of them say that a 308 is remotely equal to a 300 Weatherby as a general purpose big game cartridge.Some are high-power competitors who shoot at Perry and Quantico every year;when they travel west to hunt, to a man, they are 300 magnum shooters.I wonder why?

The little "winking devil" in Sisk's statment is "out to 300 yards".Well, what happens at 301?That's why statements like this make me laugh.....

I don't use 300's as much anymore as I used to,prefering a 270 or 7 mag of some type most of the time,and both work just fine,as I'm sure the 308 does; but I don't ever kid myself that they are the equal of a 300 magnum as a general purpose, all-round big game cartridge.The higher velocity and heavier bullets fired from the magnum case DO matter.If they kick too much for you to manage,don't use them;but don't make up a lot of nonsense to justify the choice.

Once one has enough, more does not necessarily kill faster

The damage to this Zebra's heart is from a 338 Federal shooting a 210 grain TSX. Distance about 100 yards



There is no way IMHO that a 340 Wea. or a 338 Rum or a 458 Lott would have killed any faster, since the heart is allready destroyed

There's the distance issue again,Jeff.What have we got at 400 yards where velocity has dropped off dramatically?You're a long range shooter; I'm sure you've seen where damage is not as dramatic due to lower striking velocity.....

In 2005 near Medicine Bow Wyoming I killed one Antelope at 280 yards and one at 777 yards both one shot kill that dropped in their tracks. I used a 300 Win Mag shooting 180 grain TSX bullets. Both wound channels looked identical as far as I could tell and both bullets exited.

OK;so what you're saying is, velocity does not matter? I don't think you believe that,since you' were shooting a 300 magnum

I am saying that enough is just that, enough...

Point is, in both your antelope kills,you were shooting a pretty tough bullet known for limited expansion and frontal area.Apparently,the 300 WM provided enough velocity to ( we think) expand them at both those distances.I don't disagree that enough is "enough";after all, it's antelope.

I also can't agree with anyone who argues that a 308 is the equal of a 300 WM as a long range cartridge.....

If velocity did not matter in terms of bullet expansion, we would not have things today like a TSX.

A cup and core bullet with too much velocity doesn't penetrate well up close with a lot of velocity. A 300's extra velocity adds a few more yards effective range and that is all IMHO and experience. A friend of mine broke the windage adjustable mounts on his 300 RUM and had to switch to a 30-06 during a hunt. He was very surprised to find that the 30-06 dropped game on the spot just as did his 300 RUM
Enough is enough is my point.

My goat hunt last week went something like this:

5 hunters show up in camp. Three had 300 ultras, one had a 300WM, and I had a little ol' 7-08. In the end we all had dead goats, but a couple of those 300 ultra shooters shot a lot more times to equal the results of my little ol' 7-08.

I think I'll keep shooting this little ol' non magnum until I see need for something bigger.

Of course, I do have my 358STA for brown bear, but I'll stick to the 7-08 for everything else in the US.

PS: Kinda afraid to admit how far out I've used a 30-30 on whitetails before I knew better.

run what you brung, take what you won.

The beautiful aspect of the larger cartridges is the fact that you have more flexibility. If you shoot a 165gr bullet well at 2700 to 2800 then load down to those levels, if you shoot the same bullet well at 3000 to 3100 then use that level. Both of my big game hunting rifles are short mags, and I like the flexibility factor but I wouldn't put down anyone in camp that was using a 308/7mm-08.

I shoot both of my short mags very well near the top end of their capability so that's where I load them to. That being said I don't like the 300 win mag at top speed, for me its uncomfortable, not as accurate, and it gives me a bit of the flinches. The flinches were very apparent when I would forget to take it off of safe and squoze the trigger then jumped right out of my shoes.

Yes,
I got the date wrong as there were several journals written and some were included in the Weatherby book that came out in the 90's.

It is the descriptions of the kills that were documented that made good reading as everything that was being attempted to proove a superiority to the .300 tended to assist the smaller cartridges. Obviously the bullets of the day were the influencing factor but in the old black and white days, "blue sky" sold guns and cartridges.

JW

The major point is that Roy Weatherby started promoting high velocity as The Answer to killing power when he had only shot a handful of deer. He went to Africa to "prove" his point, and got extremely mixed results. In fact, about all he really proved was that power doesn't make up for poor shot placement.

The Weatherby African journals do make fascinating reading to all who ponder such questions.

I argue that 'power' can adjust for slightly off shot placement.

The larger in diameter and deeper wound that a more powerful round can make will hit places that a weaker round would miss.

There is an underlying comment or trend being stated by the most experienced writers and hunters among us that is being overlooked, intentially, or otherwise:

At a point in your life when you can reflect on the number of cartridges and loads you have used, you can provide yourself an honest appraisal of the varied performances within the sanctury of of your own mind, where the common factor appears to be that the smaller cartridges you have used tended "overall" to be the equal in killing effect when the bullets were placed as they should.

This makes the whole cup and core Vs homogenous/convoluted design, or magnum Vs standard velocity arguments, come to a conclusion.

If you haven't got there yet, go hunting a few more times. You are entitled to delay the acceptance of fact as long as you wish.

JW

Savage 99,

Maybe, but how "off" does it make up for? Finn Aagaard suggested maybe a couple of inches, MAYBE, and I tend to agree.

As for the deeper wound, I have yet to see a .308 hit any game animal up to elk-size and the bullet not go deeply enough. Sometimes that was with a super-penetrating "modern" bullet but sometimes it wasn't.

On her first safari she used a .30-06 with 165 Fail Safes at 2850 fps or so, a velocity that could easily be reached with a .308. With that load she put not one but two bullets crosswide through a BIG kudu's chest. The first busted the near shoulder and went out at the rear of the oppoasite-side ribs. The second (not necessary but the kudu's head was still up) went in at the rear of the ribs and exited the opposite shoulder. How would a .300 have done any better?

In fact there was a thread on the African section a couple of years ago where a guy was worried about taking is .308 on a plains game hunt because he might onlyh wound an animal with good shot placement, due to the wimpy .308 not driving the bullet deeply enough. This is about as loony as we get, and any body who thinks the .308 won't penetrate enough simply doesn't have enough field experience.

My wife has used the .308 on a pile of African plains game up to a big Burchells zebra, as heavy as most elk and chunkier than all but the biggest bulls, and with a long reputation for toughness. A 150 E-Tip in the chest put it down pronto. And that is the way things work.

Mr. AussieGunWriter;
I believe you hit the proverbial nail on the head.

The first inkling I had of that was when I�d moved from an �06 to shooting a .338 and my late father was shooting a 6.5x55 I�d made up for him from a surplus �96.

Much to my chagrin, on deer sized animals, the 6.5 worked about as well as my old �06 loads had, and as it turned out for me anyway about as good as the .338 seemed to as well.

Thanks for permission to delay coming to terms with all this though. I am not finished in my search for the �ultimate� rifle/bullet combination. I guess I hope to never find it so I can keep on looking and hopefully learning.

Regards,
Dwayne

I have some field experience with a variety of cartridges. Although 375HH type power is good, the smaller calibers are equally good under the right circumstance. This fall i shot a medium size black bear to make some sausage. he was 125yds away and calm, I put a 168gr tsx from my 30-06 between his shoulder blades, looked like a pop can went through it, he never moved off the spot he was shot. My Sako Finnlight is an accurate easy to shoot rifle. The only rounds fired from a rest are for load development all the rest are off hand. i believe shot placement with adequate power and a good bullet has more influence on the results than anything else.

I have both used and seen the big 30's and the 308 used on game. My thoughts are best expressed by these quotes..."Sir, I knew Jack Kennedy and you're no Jack Kennedy." Also, "you can fool some of the people all...."

I don't believe any of those. I use what works for me.

A lot of folks tout the "out west" point like it's some kind of holy grail or something. Well I grew up out west. Born in AZ, lived there 20 years. 8 years total in NM, 5 in MT. Moved here in '04. I can safely say that with the exception of out-of-state hunters, I saw more 30-06, .270, and .308's in use in those three states than I did .300 magnums. Now add the .280, 6.5x55, 25-06, and 7x57 to the mix. Sure, a few guys loved their 7mm Rems and one or two I knew toted a .300 Winnie on occasion, but they didn't kill game any better or faster at any range. But then none of those guys would ever have even thought about considering shooting an animal in the arse from 400 or 500 or even 50 yards away hoping to reach his vitals either.

It seems to me that certain people operate under the mistaken belief that anyone really gives a schitt what they shoot and feel obliged to defend their choice. I don't care one bit. I have less experience than Charlie Sisk or Mule Deer or, most likely, you. I just use what works for me. But my limited experience leads me to agree with Charlie.

Like I said, to each his own.

Come on, talk about a red herring. There's a HUGE relative difference between a 22LR and a 22-250, not nearly the case with a 308 Win and a 300 Mag. To make your comparison of a 22LR and a 22-250 reasonable we'd be comparing a 300 Whisper loaded to about 600 fps with a 150 solid and a normally loaded 300 mag with a good 180 grain bullet; nobody here is making that argument.

I can't speak to what you've heard or seen, but I've shot big animals (moose, caribou, bears) with a 300 Win, 30-06 and 308 Win. Bullet placement was similar with all of them. My sample hasn't yet shown the difference in velocity to make a discernable difference in performance, neither has anything else I've seen. One can talk about a hypothetical difference, but that difference isn't easy to demonstrate in the field.

My thoughts exactly..

A more accurate comparison would be say, between the .223 and the .22-250...

I was born in Arizona as well, so what.



It's not a holy grail it's just the fact.



You saw, but did you ever kill anything?
What does this statment have to do with the 308 killing like a 300 WBY?



Total Bull Shot. No offense bud, but I've killed to many elk in that state and 5 others to know that you don't have a clue to what your talking about. I killed my first elk in AZ with a 308 Win and killed my last elk in AZ with a 300 WBY. There is a huge difference in killing effect. I know from first hand not a "i have a friend." OR "I saw".

I have never had an elk just standing there for me to take careful aim and shoot. Every time I've killed an elk it was moving.
The exception to this is if your hunting a private ranch and the elk have not been hunted or pushed.
You get an elk on the move and he knows he's being hunted you get lucky just to get the cross hairs on his chest for a quick shot.
300's shooting 200's will give you a big edge at any distance. Not to toot but I've taken dozens of elk to discover this.
I went from the 308's 270's 280's to the 300's and 338's. I'm not going back.
I look at the 300's as anchor rifles. The 308 is not.

Charlie is a great gunsmith, I don't know about his hunting qualifications. His statement sounds more like he is selling his
services. I'll bet my bottom dollar Charlie has never never killed an elk with a 300 WBY or 308 Win at 300 yards.

Thegman:I was trying to make a point by illustration;sorry the analogy did not meet your exacting demands Use the 308 all you want; I really do not care.Nor do I buy into the central theme of this thread. If you want to,be my guest.

You know Bob relatively speaking, in shooting jack rabbits with a 22 LR compared to a 22 mag. The 22 mag hits them harder and does a whole lot more damage. When working for my uncle when he was a govt. trapper we would load our single six's with a 22 mag cylinder instead of a 22 LR cylinder. Kill bear, lion, bobcats, and coyotes with a whole lot more effect. More powder behind those bullets make a big difference in killing power. The same can be said for centerfire's

Shaun: I was not talking about you.I've been hunting the west for 30 years; I know what most locals use for rifles.One of my closer friends has killed a lot more elk than Sisk and most gun writers.If you want to know what he has to say about the difference between standard cases and a 300 on elk, I could likely put you in touch.....

This thread has become right entertaining!

I agree with Charlie too. The 300 mags are superior beyond 300 yards.

Sure, with .308, '06, .270, 7mm Rem, 300 Win. Never saw much difference.



Not much except to point out that the natives -- including me -- took a lot of game with non magnums and never felt handicapped by that fact.



I've shot a few as well. On public land. The fastest to drop was shot with a .50 cal muzzle loader.



Some say there is, some say no. Don't attack me for disagreeing with you. Shoot what you want. I never said the .308 was the end all hunting cartridge. But I did say that I agreed with Charlie Sisk. If his opinion pisses you off, tell him about it.

If we're talking elk exclusively, I'll take a .338 or .35 over any .300 Mag. But that's just me.

Be aware of the backgrounds of those who offer their opinions. None of the popular writers are serious trophy hunters. None have taken or seen taken the number of animals that the average african pro sees in a single season.
This is what I have been told many times by african pros: 1. the 270, 308, 30-06 produce similar result given good bullets 2. if you want the next level of destruction and on-game performance go to a 300 3. very few of the 338 users shoot well; in fact most are really terrible marksmen with that cartridge.
There is a world famous gunsmith in my home town. He builds rifles for the rich and famous. He can actually build double rifles. He is always willing to offer his opinions on bullets and cartridges. He has shot one or two deer and some rabbits. There are a few knowledgable gunmakers but not many. Example, Kenny J once told me to use ballistic tips in his 300 wildcat because they were more accurate. Nonsense.

I don't read many articles from magazines but,unfortunately,I read to much on the internet,some good and some bad but it is entertaining to an old hillbilly.What Charlie wrote is true to what I have seen with my own eyes..

These super duper mags need super duper bullets(Premium) to hold up to the high velocity impact therefore put into some of the subsonic calibers like the 30-30/300 Savage/308/30-06 don't have the immediate expansion/trauma that the sonic bullets have..Bullet choice is everything for the caliber you use.

I have seen the 30-30/30-40/300 Savage and others dump Elk on the spot from a broadside shot and the bullet basically explodes in the vitals.Now control the expansion as a Premium does and I would op for a higher velocity cartridge to get 'er done.Then we get the angles and distance which changes everything...

Sometimes Premium isn't better which makes a guy think how in the heck did they do it 50 years ago?

Jayco

I just returned home from an Elk hunting trip in wyoming. The crew consisted of four guys from northern, Wis. All deer hunters, and ranging in age from 58-64. We have all been elk hunting before, and two of the crew many times. The oldest guy killed his 25th bull (6x6) opening morning with his old Mark X 30-06, 165 grain Nosler pt, 190 lasered yards, my cousin killed his first bull (5x4) at 9AM in the timber with a Rem 700 Mountain Rifle in 280 Rem, 154 gr Hornady handload I loaded, range 75-80 yards, and I killed my 6x5 an hour before dark at approx 75 yards in the timber with my Ruger 77, 7x57 and 160 gr Hawk Bullet. I don't think any magnum would have killed them any deader, or been nearly as much fun to use. The guy who killed his 25th has never had an elk that he shot with that rifle ever get away. His longest shot was a little over 400 yards. He won't take a shot that he is unsure of, and will always use a rest when available, as we all should. We had a hell of a good time. The other guy didn't connect. His rifle was a Mauser 3000 in 270 Win , with 130 grain Nosler pt.

SU:Yes,and thanks.My analogy was set forth merely to illustrate the dramatic effect velocity has on bullet expansion,and terminal effect; it was never intended to mathematically correlate to the 308/300 Weatherby comparison.Glad you got what I was trying to say

Others did not.....

I know.

I take no offense from the opinions or cartridge choices of others. If they want to use a .300 Mag, that's great, as long as they can shoot it well. Like some others have pointed out, there are many who can't.

Charlie made a general statement as far as I can tell. Some agreed, others not. Nothing here worth getting worked up about. I do find it interesting that SU didn't disagree with JB or others with the same vigor as he did me, even though their experiences led them to agree with Charlie -- at least to a certain extent -- as well.

I never said I don't like magnums either. I went through a 7mm Rem phase for a while. I came to the conclusion that it didn't kill any better than other cartridges. I never was a fan of .300 magnums. If I'm going to put up with that much recoil, I want to shoot wider, heavier bullets than a 200 grain .30, no matter how fast it's going. If I feel I need more than a standard cartridge offers, the next step for me is going to be more in the neighborhood of a 250 grain .338 or .35. I've been hankering for another .35 since I tried a Whelen some years back and like I said, the only bang-flop elk I ever shot was with a .50 muzzle loader.

Someone pointed out earlier that more brown bears have probably been killed with a 30-06 than any other cartridge. I propose that more elk have probably been killed with 30-30's than any .300 Magnum of any stripe. Makes me wonder how grandpa ever did it.

Bottom line was introduced somewhere on the first page:

Drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies. The rest is gack as Dober would say.

I think the snobbery you spoke of is real to an extent. But then so is the fact that a certain segment of guys who shoot .300 mags always feel compelled to use their best John Wayne voice when informing you of their choice. All of that just goes to show that even azzhats can't agree on which cartridge is best.

None of it is worth fighting over.

One of my Inuit friends in Kotzebue killed a slew of polar bears and walruses with a .25-20 � using on bears a "hunting" technique that still gives me the flyin' jim-jams.

When he saw a plume of breath rising from a sleeping, snow-covered bear, he'd push the barrel of his Winchester into the snow until he felt the muzzle touch flesh. Then he fired.

I still visualize myself going end-over-end high into the air, as if from a self-fired trampoline, the first (and last) time I were to try such a stunt.

Comparing the .22 LR with te .22 Magnum is not exactly like comparing the .308 with a .300 Weatherby. The .22 Magnum gets over 60% more velocity than the .22 LR. To make the same comparison the .300 would have to get around 4300 fps at the muzzle with a 180.

A bullet through the lungs or heart with a 30-06 will kill just as well as a bullet through the heart or lungs with a 300. At least that has been my experience. Once one has a large enough hole in the vitails, a larger doesn't hole nessecerily kill quicker

I agree and would not "fault" those wanting full preparedness. What ever happened to "Use the biggest gun you can shoot accurately"

I just debriefed my hunting partner upon his return from Wyoming. After he took his guided mulie with a 30-378 WBY he got out a Mod 70 270 WSM and took another in a walk-in area. The following day he went back after antelope with the WBY because "I liked the confidence it gave me to be prepared for ANY situation"

I don't blame him. The WBY shoots ity-bitty groups and feels like a 270 with the brake. The TSX he had loaded behind 110 grains of powder gave him no doubts about any sane shot. At first I was surprised he went back to the 300 but then again... he doesn't know your not supposed to use too much gun....

Mr. Howell I about spilled my when I read that.
My Grandfather was a firm believer in get as close as possible before firing a shot but I think even he would have had trouble with that one.

How did he accomplish that? If the bullet is loaded behind the powder is the velocity still high?

This reminds me of the fact that I have a good gunsmith friend, who is sorta "world famous". Almost. That's because he's done a lot of work for a "world famous" gun writer and built him a cannon for Africa.

He's done a lot of work for me over the past twenty years or so. I trust him implicitly as a gunsmith and master craftsman. But I rarely ask him a question about ballistics or hunting because, frankly, I know more than he does. I simply smile and nod approvingly when those matters are touched on.

And, BTW, I'm a completely unashamed and dedicated 300 Win Mag fan. To date, I've owned six. Long ago I owned a couple '06s, but will never go back there (I'll be 73 next birthday in Dec.). Never owned a 308 Win. Never will, though I've recommended it to others. I have a 30-30, a 308 Win, a 30-06 AND a 300 mag all in one rifle!

My favorites are big bores, but as to an all-purpose cartridge for North America, IMO you would be hard pressed to beat a 300 mag. I favor the traditional 300 Win but have owned a 308 Norma and a WBY.

And, oh yeah, as to the recoil thing... I have to laugh! I still shoot hot-loaded 45-70s and a 458 Win. In the past I've used 338s, a 340 WBY and 375H&Hs... If you do much shooting with them, after a while it's hard to tell the difference. Another gunsmith I used to know, told me - in reference to recoil - that because he was shooting so much in testing (a former military instructor), and such a variety of rifles in a given week, that he literally didn't really notice a heck of a lot of difference between them!!

Maybe not quite, but the fact that there is a velocity increase that shows dramatic results says something. More speed in the same bullet weight hammers animals.


Shaun, no offense toward you at all, you went from I saw to I did, big difference.

Maybe in your mind mags are John Wayne but for me they are a more effective killer of big game.




Tell that to the African PH who shoots a 458 Lott instead of a 45-70.

Not really. There is a point of diminishing returns. As it is with a .22 and a .22 magnum, there is a big difference in getting hit by a guy on a bicycle and a pick-up doing 60 mph. However, I doubt that one could tell the difference between getting hit by a Ford F150 and a Peterbuilt at 60 mph. Dead is dead, after all.

The Grizz & the Moose on the left were taken with my Revolver both were one shot kills and the Bear was absolutely flattened




This mature Bull Bison (70 1/4 SCI) was taken with one shot from my revolver




No high velocity, flat point hard cast bullets and dead animals

Yep put a well constructed bullet in the correct location and critter dies, Steelheads got it right

Yeah, I realized after re-reading my post that I had neglected to mention what I had used personally. I didn't stop to think that "I saw" would rub a lot of folks the wrong way.



Not at all. What I said was that they are in the minds of certain guys who use them. In my experience, those are usually a good portion of the ones who can't shoot them worth a darn as well. I know a guy here who touts his .300 Win as the end-all cartridge, but he shoots less than a box of factory ammo a year through it.



I won't presume to tell an African PH anything, as I've never been to Africa.

Magnums have their place, which is in the hands of anyone who can shoot them well and feels more confident in doing so.

Another discrepancy between one viewpoint or the other might well be style of hunting. I've killed only a dozen or so elk. Only two of those were big bulls. The rest were cows and spikes. I'm not really a big trophy hunter, usually lived in the unit I hunted, and had all year to scout and know the terrain. Now that I live in WI, that has changed as far as elk are concerned. Hence my hankering for a .35. More money and less time to get my elk. Plus I'll most likely end up in whichever state offers the best deal to non-residents. I'm choosing the WSM case and Sako 75 SM action. It should match my .308 pretty well as far as handling characteristics go. With a 250 gr load it should also match a .308 165 gr load for trajectory, which I am intimately familiar with.

I never claimed the .308 was the .300 Roy's equal in every way and I don't think Charlie did either. But I have used it on a lot of game with excellent results. As far as those kills go, I don't feel a magnum would have done any better. But I too see the wisdom in hedging one's bets when expensive out-of-state hunts are on the menu.

Besides, heated debates like this one give loonies the warm fuzzies, which is a good thing.

Having said that, I propose that the combination of the .223 AI and the TSX have made all other cartridges obsolete!

You know, I'm never going to get that image out of my head. I can see it perfectly, complete with a cloud of snow drifting slowly back to earth, a comical look on your face, and a very angry -- though somewhat puzzled -- bear watching you sail through the air.

when i read this thread i noticed that the amount of rifle/calibre related info in this thread is more than an ph will know in ten life times. i guess this is why when i show hunting forums to my african hunting friends they just smile, and take no interest. i own a 308 and it has taken more game than i can remember. from a hare to a eland. as i see this thread the ultimate calibre would be the 300 mag that has the gentle recoil of the 30-06 and the acuracy of the 308. such a rifle is common found in africa. for some reason it is ignored by gun manufacturers in the usa. low and behold i a loyal 308 owner also owns this calibre.

My buddy Earl Fleming had an experience, with brownies one night, that still gives me the same imagined image.

He stayed out afield (photographing SE Alaska brownies) longer than he intended and was trotting back to his trawler in the dark, along a bear trail through the willows, with only a view of a strip of dark gray sky to show him where the trail was.

He trotted right off a high bank �

� and landed in a bear wallow �

� in the middle of a sow brownie and two or three cubs or yearlings.

The smell and the pile of wet hair told him where he'd landed, but the bears, startled by being awakened so suddenly, woofed and fled. Earl got flung around a bit but immediately had the wallow all to himself.

I doubled-up laughing as he told about it � but he didn't yet see anything funny about it.

It's just dang hard to prove his statement wrong.I have seen Elk boom flop to the 30-30 with K-Mart specials in the right spot and angle.The .300 Savage dumps 'em just as well as does the .308 and 30-06.I own a .300 Win Mag and it is hard to tell "because" like humans,each Elk is an individual..Some go down easy and others just won't go down...Spine/head shots puts anything down right now but those shots are few and far between.

Live and learn..What happened last year does not mean the same thing will happen this year,even if all things are equal.

Jayco

It is all a matter of perspective.

That definitely sounds like one of those I-hate-it-when-that-happens moments. Still laughin' here. I'm reminded of the time the Javelina fell on me.

Our next-door neighbor Jack didn't laugh when he told me, wide-eyed, of his all-day experience with a mysterious, unrecognizable low, black critter that kept running across his field as he was plowing.

Jack couldn't afford a tractor, so he had to walk through miles of mule exhaust. In that humidity (southern Alabama), he couldn't wear his glasses (sweat wouldn't evaporate off 'em, so they were soon covered with thick, damp dust).

All day, two things kept happening (and I don't know whether they were connected) � Jack's mule kept trying to look sideways around the blinders, and that low, black thing kept running across his field.

Jack was a hunter and canny outdoorsman, well familiar with all the flora and fauna thereabouts, but he couldn't think of a critter that was that low and that long � or that long and that low. And of course he couldn't see it clearly.

That afternoon, Jack's mule kept straining to look backward, and Jack had a dickens of a time plowing straight furrows. He looked back over his shoulder to see what was bothering the mule.

The low, black thing was coming down the furrow, straight for him.

"I just had time," he told me, "to holler and stomp it. You know what it was? �

" � a buzzard's shadow!"

I agree with Charlie on this one - good bullets and proper placement is the key as well as the .308 being easier to shoot than the .300 Weatherby.

Many of the same people who say, "Look, the .308 kills just as well as the .300 Weatherby," are the same people who say, "The .300 Weatherby destroys too much meat."

You can't have it both ways.

The way you kill something is to destroy tissue--organs, bones, meat, or whatever.

It should be self evident: The .300 Weatherby kills a lot better, if you can hit in the same place, than does the .308.

This thread seems to boil down to two camps.

Camp #1. Those that have shot big game with both the 308 and 300 magnums.

The majority of this camp (including me) have not noted any significant differences between the two in -killing game within 300 yards-, given similar shot placement; so they tend to agree with Sisk's statement. No big deal.

Camp #2. Those that generally haven't shot big game with both the 308 Win. and 300 magnums.

Most of the people that insist there's a big difference fall in this camp. Since they generally do not have first hand experience they raise all sorts of spurious arguments such as:

I know some guys who know a lot about hunting and they use 300 magnums...

or

This authority said they're better (Ignoring the 'authorities' that disagree with their view)

or

This (not a 300 magnum)cartridge has higer velocity than this other (not a 308) cartridge and the higher velocity one kills better, so there, that proves my point...

or

This round damages more meat so it obviously kills better too...

Repeating: "I've tried both and I haven't been able to see a significant difference in killing game, so as far as it goes, Sisk's statement appears to be more or less correct." seems to fall on deaf ears. Thus the "religous fanatic" statement I made in my first post.

Hit them right with a good bullet and it'll work; energy just helps get the job done.

I'll take all the help I can get.

Dang, this thread is still going??

Yeah. Call it the Energizer funny.

I agree. Not that you need any corroboration. You hunt with a 308 and you know its capabilities. I have yet to determine the difference in Texas between the Axis bucks I shoot with my 280 Remington or with my 300 Weatherby. In fact, once I bought the 280 the 300 Wby has not gone afield since. That was nearly 5 years ago.

I have often wished I had chosen a 308 Winchester over the 280 but what's done is done.

This thread seems to have become another buzzard's shadow.

In my (very) limited experience the average Eastern whitetail hunter was better served fifty years ago with a handy light weight open sighted 30-30 than he is today with a much more powerful bolt gun with the typical 3-9x scope.

Tastes great.

Less filling.

When I was a kid in the 1930s and 1940s, the Eastern deer-hunters whom I knew were fond of the .250 Savage and the .300 Savage and were always arguing about whether the .32 Special was superior to the .30-30 and vice versa. Their fondness for the wildcat .257 Roberts led Remington to adopt it in the 1930s. I don't remember any mention of magnums except in disdain.

I believe there was a detailed article in some gun rag explaining the correct direction of the "pointy end".

I shot a deer this last week with a 300 ultra and one of the other guys hunting with me got one with a 308. There was no comparison in the amount of tissue damage done, nor in the quickness of the kill. Hands done the ultra destroyed more tissue and knocked the deer down immediately vs. a 50 yard run for the 308. Shoot placement was similar BTW.
An example of one....BUT in my experiences magnums chew up more tissue. I dont think anyone can even argue this. Since tissue damage is what kills animals it would seem the more damage inflicted, the faster the animal would die.

I'd disagree with much of that.

Which point, ST?

Magnums don't chew up more meat, magnums don't kill quicker, certainly not where deer sized critters are concerned. It's all about the bullet.

Wow, you're old.

My experiences with mags and tissue damage doesn't jive with yours I guess.
Just to clarify, your saying that a 30 cal 165 TSX started at 3400 and one started at 2800 will produce like wounds?

It's the BULLET.

Maybe, but when talking identical bullets the one driven to higher velocity will damage more tissue, no?

Depends on the bullet.

I'm liking the odds of a 110gr V-max at 2400fps making it through the critter, not so much if it's doing 3900fps, but it will 'chew up' more stuff for about an inch.

It ALL DEPENDS ON THE BULLET.

Oops, seems someone beat me to that!

Clean kills are not determined by tissue disruption. The drop of the animal is due to the drop in blood pressure once hit. It kinda makes them light headed.

And destruction of tissues causes said drop in blood pressure.

ST, what about the situation with TSX I mentioned above?
Of course comparing apples to oranges scews results..

I've seen stuff more messed up from a 200gr Hornady fired from a 35 Remington at 1700fps than a 100gr TSX doing 3600fps. But they are apples and oranges also and both died just fine.

Cartridge selection for your average shooting distances is pretty much moot these days, it's all about the bullet and especially putting it where it belongs.

These are the good old days.

May I chime in....

SU35, re: 22 vs 22 mag, not to start flames, but Bob Milek, noted handgun author/hunter used a long bbl single six with Magnums for treed mountain lion. I seem to recall his pointing out then, that the JACKETED bullets penetrated better than lead LR bullets. IIRC, Bob preferred by far the Jacketed FMJ flat tips over the lead tipped ones/and-or HPs. That accounts as much for KILLING POWER enhancement as the velocity that the magnum round makes up for being in A) short handgun bbl 2) being in a revolver where the cylinder gap is a huge robber of velocity. Many handguns w/short bbl magnums shoot like 22LR's from a rifle re: MV. Those Magnum rounds with FMJs will reliably penetrate thru skulls whereas a lead LR round might skive off bone.

After reading most posts in the thread, I came upon Steelheads comment.

ITS THE BULLET. SO true. A 308 is not my cup of tea, prefer 6.5's and 7mm's myself in similar size capacity rounds, for MY hunting. As to 300 doing so much more damage on deer, I'll pass thank you. Rather not create what I consider 'excessive damage' meat or otherwise. Dead is dead in my book.

I ran a few 6mm BR's and a 7mm BR rifle for deer the past many years, yes my 338/06 hit like the Hammer of Thor, but it was more than needed. Even my 7/08s started seeming like more gun than needed 90+ % of the time. One only needs to play with a BR and shoot some game with it to understand. I AM talking deer and under sized game now mind you to be sure, Elk not in the equation.

As to some posts on long range deer kills, ALL my kills were at 200 yds and less, except 2. One a 270 150 pt at 275 yds in Co. and another here in my area, at 400 yds, using that INADEQUATE 6mm BR with INADEQUATE 105 Amax 'target constructed' bullet....double lunged, struggled very hard to stagger 25 yds and drop dead.

Perception is a funny thing. I truly enjoy the smaller rounds, and lately, just sold off many 7/08s...fine killing machines they were and accurate to boot, and have been playing again with more 6.5s, 260 and 6.5x55. My first rifle was a 7mag and since my first deer kill with it, I have yet to shoot another with any magnum, and Any/All died fairly quickly, when hit square. A 50 yd travel from shot site is nothing unusual or to get worked up about.

Now dangerous game like Grizzly, I'll take my 338/06 back, yes even over a magnum! Why? I can control and shoot it better, faster recoil recovery than something larger, and it holds five rounds vs 4 as many magnums. If one ever DID need one more round, it's there.

We all have different ideas, but the one 'Great Equalizer' in Cartridge Debate Selection is SHOT Placement, With Correct Bullet.

Younger'n Clint Eastwood

So your syaing a magnum does indeed cause more damage, no?
BTW If losing a meat is a huge issue, dont shoot them where there is meat.
And beofre ST chimes in Deer ribs aint meat.

Taking out at least one shoulder is never a bad thing.

These are the good old days. Here's hoping they don't end in January.

Breakin a little bone never bothered me. Of course I dont fret over a little lost meat either.

The only non-CNS 'bang-flop' I've ever had or seen on a moose (including moose shot with 300 UMs) was the first moose I took with a 308 Win. Like you say, 'a sample of one'. I didn't walk away from that experience touting the 308 as a better killer than a 300 mag (which is all I had used prior) but in the time since, it sure hasn't shown itself to be appreciably worse at killing things, either.

A heavier bullet at a lower muzzle velocity can give you the same or even greater impact energy than a lighter and initially faster bullet out where it hits the hair � and at a lower impact velocity, it'll ruin less eatin' meat.

Demonstrable principle, not arm-chair theory. I'm just one of the nasty guys who've shown this to be so, to the wonderment of those who worship muzzle velocity.

BWalker, good point, but I'll personally go to a 338/06 or other mid bore and skip 30 cals if my 6.5/7mms are not up to the task. I think a 338/06 gives solid killing power without as much meat loss, moderate speeds with larger/heavier bullets gets my nod as they are flat and hit hard enough to the ranges I'd be comfortable, around 400 yds.

Gee, I swear as I typed this I had not read Ken's message above, but we are on the same page no doubt. It's all personal preference.

300s have and will be doing their share of killing for a long time. I just prefer to do it another way.

everything I've shot with a 308 150 grain partition was DRT.

Didn't think I needed a 300 after the shot.