Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Interesting comment from Charlie Sisk

"BTW I agree that a 270/7mm bullet from a 308 or 30/06 case kills anything on the continent;based on the moose study,we should be perfectly safe taking these cartridges against brown bear and cape buffalo;but we don't.How come? "

There is history to consider as well- both in the tradition of British and Continental hunters using really big cartidges on African and Asian game as well as the fact that relatively small cartidges- .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .25-35- were seen as hot numbers against large North American game when they were first introduced.

Our expectations often color our perceptions of results.

I just returned from a public land elk hunt in Colorado. I carried a 300 Weatherby but I wasn't convinced it was really necessary. Now I believe it was a good choice. It was hard to get a shot under 400 yards. It was always windy. There were to many hunters to spend much time on a stalk. We had elk spooked away from us three different times while we were making a stalk. We got a bull, but only because we managed to find him in the timber after he had been spooked out from under us. Even then, all we got was a long cross canyon shot. For that country and those conditions, make mine a magnum.

Fred: It may be speculation,but it's as good speculation as I have heard!

Mathman: You're right; I guess it isn't really hard

Marc: That's the reality for me. Good post.There is no harm in shooting the biggest thing you're comfortable with,and can shoot well. If that's a 7/08 or 270,fine;you have enough to do the job. OTOH,there is no harm in using something more powerful,and flat shooting if it gives you confidence....

Marc,

That's the reality of elk hunting other than that I've read a lot of speculation here.

Relative to cartridge and animal size any here remember when the 458 win mag first came out it did not have enough velocity to do the job? Winchester had to speed it up to make it work.

I also don't buy into that Africa's animals are tougher than NA.

It also depends on where you hunt elk--though with the high numbers of elk in general these days, more are found in open country.

I grew up in Montana, where I still live, and in most places where I hunted elk when younger it was rare to get a shot much ove 100 yards, because most of the elk were in timber. This is changing with the numbers of elk, but in general where I hunt public land shorter shots are still the norm.

I have also hunted elk in Colorado and New Mexico, and have seen more elk at long range in those places. So it all depends.

As for African hunters using bigger rounds for, say, Cape buffalo, well in all African countries that I know of there are laws about minimm cartridges, most created a long time ago. In general these say 9.3mm or .375.

This doesn't mean that with today's bullets a .338 or even a .300 magnum or .30-06 won't kill a buffalo. It will, and I know people who have done it, a number of times. Some of them did it while doing control shooting, where laws don't apply. One PH I know has killed a bunch of buffalo with 180 Partitions from a .30-06, some with frontal shots, which accoridng to some authorities is next to impossible with Partitions. But my friend has done it over and over.

I also know some sport hunters who have used .338's and .300 magnums on buffalo, with the blessing of the PH, whether it was legal or not. They all killed their buffalo.

Phil Shoemaker also says that he is happy to guide brown bear hunters who can shoot a .30-06--and Phil guides in a part of Alaska where some of the biggest bears live. Phil even used the .30-06 as a back-up for some years on brown bear.

Please note that I am not saying there aren't difference between cartridges, or that sometimes a bigger, faster and/or fatter bullet won't make a difference. But bullet placement is still the primary factor in all big game shooting, and when we start arguing over differences in cartridges we are talking about the lesser part of the equation.

Marc-

Those are exactly the conditions I would opt for a maggy over a standard: Long range - over 300 yds. - open country, windy (gusty), spooky animals; these are circumstances where I feel more confident with a .340 (put in your maggy of choice) than with my '06. I know, I know - The moose study and I know - put a boolit in the right place and they tip over. But you got to get it there first....

Gdv

JB: Spot on. As usual with these "killing power" discussions, there are very few "wrong" answers,because everyone has different experiences,and in truth, we are all, collectively, very well-armed! Being able to shoot is the key...

I'll buy those answers.


and I've often stated most animals I've killed could have been killed with an '06 as to where they were felled with either a 7 mag or .338


I just came of age during the magnum mania of the 60's-70's and bought in hook line and sinker.


certainly agree that shot placement is paramount, always has been always will be.


have to wonder though if around campfires in the Middle Ages if guys didn't discuss the merits of a thicker heavier sword versus a lighter more wieldable one?

I'm on a mission when the dust clears financially and if I'm still standing to have either a .308 or 7/08 in a quest for something lighter, my 7 mag is 7 and 1/4 pounds all dressed up and ready to dance.

I suppose the truth of the matter is I've burnt a bit of unnecessary powder, created more muzzle blast than was necessary and taken a bit more jolt to my shoulder than needed by using my magnums.


but truthfully, I've enjoyed them, even range work and never suspected I had "hard" recoiling systems till logging onto the campfire here.

will say as I've said before I defer to Phil Shoemaker's experience here in hunting and things gunny.

but will say from personal experience, never went in to sort out a bear and wished "dang .338 wish it was an '06" .458 maybe


rare circumstances I guess where bigger is better, rare circumstances when you will need a handgun to defend yourself against the two legged variety.


when/if those rare circumstances happen you won't be sorry if you have a tool applicable to the job. YMMV

In a perfect world, that would be the final word on the matter.

Scott

The 308 comment means, to me, that the 308 is "enough" gun... plenty of gun. I can agree with that in no small part based on the testimony here.

But, it does not mean it is equal to the 300 in every way. Some mentioned use of heavier bullets, flatter shooting and added confidence, all legitimate.

I can tell you... when you drive two days to get to your hunting in unfamiliar territory and have no idea what shot will present itself you tend to go with the bigger round.

My regular hunting partner is in Wyoming right now with his 30-378 WBY/brake /Pacnor/ 180 TSX/300 yd sight in for deer. Why he has a 30-378 is a long story but he wanted to draw first blood with it. After three days and a long uphill stalk he got his first reasonable shot at 411 yds. Being very winded, his first shot went low. The guide yelled "it went low, aim over the back, shoot". Hindsight is 20/20 but he collected himself, held on air as demanded and shot over! The buck disappeared over the ridge.

This magnum didn't get the job done but I can tell you he wouldn't have grabbed his 270 the next morning. I can assure you that he still saw the 300 mag as the best long range tool in his kit. The next day he dropped a lesser buck running dead away at 286. Once again the guide yelling "shoot". The TSX ran back to front dropping the buck in a heap.

My opinion - the 308 will do the job on any North American game, but if I am in big bear country in brushy Alasks country, I want something that starts with .4xx and has a belt!

Think of it like the security blanket my grandson sleeps with; it makes him feel better.

I think it's a case of If we build it, they will buy it!

Also, willing to bet that more brown bears have been killed by a .30-06 than any other cartridge, and maybe more than all others.


ETA: Don't have a citation regarding '06 vs brownies. Wish I did though.

From what I have seen with my own eyes, when using like bullets a magnum typical tears up more tissue.

I don't have a lot of experience on game with either the .308 Winchester or the various .300 Magnums, but I have seen a lot of shooters at local ranges with both. There's no question that the guys with .308s have a greater tendency to hit the target with some regularity than those with .300 Mags. A lot of guys show up with .300 Magnums, but not many of them can shoot them worth a damn. IMO, most (but not all) of the guys I've seen shooting .300 Magnums would be more effective using a .308 instead. And they kick less. And they cost less to shoot. And the rifle is likely lighter.

But then, everybody knows you need a .300 Magnum to kill an elk. So virtually everybody who goes elk hunting from my neck of the woods gets one. I've heard of at least one elk guiding outfit that more or less requires clients to use .300 Magnum minimum.

If you can use the power effectively, then all is well. But with great power comes great responsibility-- to learn how to control it!

Good shooting!

This IS the point. I will also admit the 300 Wby is one of the best all around elk cartridges as it kills as well as the 30-06.

I didn't read all the posts so I hope I'm not rehashing stuff here .I would agree with Charlies statement, although it may sound like I don't, because I have seen a difference in the killing effect of a 308 and a 300 WBY inside of 300 yards.If you load the Weatherby to maximum velocity with 150 Sierra's the effect on a 120lb whitetail is quite stunning.It's also something I wouldn't do again , not a lot left for the freezer. I also think you could reverse the statement to say the "average" shooter would probably have a higher kill rate beyond 300 yards with a 308 than a 300 WBY .It's just much more shootable for most shooters. I'd bet even most experienced shooters would have a higher pecentage of hits at 500 yards with a 308 than any of the big magnums . I have a 300 & 338 RUM and a 300 & 338 Win Mag. But I have to shoot them regularly to be use to the recoil. From about 30-06 down is much more enjoyable to shoot.

Ironbender: I think you're right about the 30/06 and brown bears,but really don't know.Brown bears make me nervous so I've used a 375 myself.But we've always known that a 30/06 is among a handful of the very best things a guy can own

I hate to break this to some of you, but there are folks who are perfectly comfortable shooting a .300. Before I got a real job .300s were the little stuff that I shot, for my job.

I have had this discussion with Charlie and many others over the years. The most important thing is shot placement. Hit the animal in the foot with anything and you lose him! The next most important is the bullet. My personal favorite is the Barnes "X" bullet, least favorite (for big game) is the Nosler Balistic Tip. There are MANY good bullets on the market today, they just need to be properly selected for the intended game. The least important is what that bullet is fired from, assuming that enough velocity remains at impact to drive that bullet into the vitals. Many bullets pass clear through the animal or are caught by the hide on the far side. More velocity would not make that animal die any faster. I just got back from an elk hunt where a hunting partner used my rifle to kill his elk at 350 yards. The bullet, a 140 grain Barnes TSX, was recovered in the far leg after breaking both shoulders. I shot mine at 450 yards with the same bullet, and it passed clear through. Both animals died within a few feet of where they were hit. The rifle was a 280 Rem Ackley Improved (built by Charlie Sisk), which I'm sure many people would consider unsuitable for elk. Our guide had never seen elk go down so quickly. I've seen too many hunters use too large of a gun (for them) and were afraid to shoot it! Many will even get someone else to sight it in for them. How can thay expect to make a good shot on an animal? I have big guns, but they tend to stay in the safe. If you can shoot the larger cartridges well (and practice with them) by all means use them. Many, and I think most, can not and would do far better with one of the "puny" cartridges!