Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Interesting comment from Charlie Sisk

Time to get out the Swedish moose study.....grins

I think Charlie was both right and wrong at the same time if I may say so (perhaps I should have been a politician-perish the thought). I can see his point but there are just too many factors involved or aspects, if you will, for "blanket statements." I'm sure he didn't think he was making one or intended to do so. Yet, he did expect some would take it apart with a tweezers like as has been done and I'm contributing to for my afternoon's entertainment.

When it comes to picking things apart, I'm always reminded of Jesus' statement about, "straining out the gnats but swallowing a camel." To a seasoned hunter and rifle shot, the difference between using either the 308 or the Wby would be like "swallowing a gnat" but for many hunters and rifle shooters I've seen, the difference would be like "swallowing the camel."

That makes neither a better choice than the other depending on the who, what, and where.

I'm glad I could add such clarity this afternoon without answering anything .

Gdv

Gdv,
You should run for office!

In my opinion if we are talking deer there is probably no difference. Large elk at 300 yards I'd give the 300 the nod. A very large bear at 30 feet determined to take large chunks of meat out of me I'd pick up the 300 wishing it was my 375 H&H.

Doc

Snap shooting elk in high timber where all the elk has to do is head downhill, usually their bed is right next to an escape ledge.
Shot elk can run a long ways downhill, add public land hunting with LOTS of hunters and I'll take the 300 Hammer. My DRT odds just went up 10 fold or more for all my experience is concerned.

Private land hunting or where there is a low hunter ratio using an outfitter/guide to lead me up to a shot, the 308 will do.

I'm a bit schizophrenic on this issue, more and more liking light, little rifles chambered in standard cartridges but am also convinced that I wouldn't have chilled my last two big bulls with standard cartridges because I don't think I would have tried.

I�ve never owned a .300 Weatherby Mag but I have owned a .300 Win Mag and a .300 WSM.
So I will agree with Charlie and JB on this one. What I did notice was a lot less blood shot meat with my .308 Win and my .30-06.



Mark, I will agree and disagree with your statement, at least with most shooters east of the Mississippi River.
Your statement should read, ��that most rounds are equal to 300 yds and most shooters are equal to 100 yds and after that things get real fffy.�
__________________
The Ol� Man said, �Son, when you think you�re close enough to make the shot get closer.�

I agree with this assessment, but unlike some of the others, I have yet to see an elk drop to the shot when the spine or brain was not hit. I have killed ALL my elk at 100 yds or less. I saw NO difference in the performance of the 200 grainers that I started with and the 165s (X bullets) that I used on the last 5 or 6. They ALL ran at least 30 yds. The only WBY killed elk that ran more than 40 was a 6x6 that I shot head on in the chest cavity at about 90ish yards. It ran straight at me and turned broadside at 10 yards, still motoring just fine. I assumed that I had missed it. My buddy stepped in front of me and piled it up with a neck shot at 10 yds with his 30-338 and promptly put his tag on it. When I opened him up I found gallons of blood in the chest cavity. He told me that it was too bad, it was his bull! I found a 1" hole through the middle of the heart (lower chambers) and the mushroomed 200 grain Barnes softpoint lodged in the right hindquarter!

But for deer, I have had most of them drop at the shot. I guess the threshold is met for a 150# animal, it most certainly is NOT for an 900# one!

I,like many people, naturally base their opinions and preferences on experiences. I haven't had too many good ones with 308 killed deer and elk! I guess it's simply a matter of coincidences that brings me to this conclusion as the hard data would not support my feelings for sure!

My son's 200# calf elk took 30 seconds to succumb to a 150 Corelokt out of his 308 last year. It went down within 5 seconds but still kicked for a while! Elk are tough critters!

BINGO.

Confidence matters.

BMT

I'm not one for high speed magnums, but the one advantage they do offer is to be able to shoot heavy bullets at reasonable velocities.

Hawk,

For those who are not familiar of what it is you speak of:

Almost 10,000(!!!) Moose - shot in Sweden, where the distance between the shot and the fall of the game is noted - were studied. The study found not two dozen yards difference between a 6.5 X 55 (the lightest caliber commonly used in Sweden on Moose) and the 460 Weatherby (the biggest rifle, as I recall) and looking at every other cartridge used too - in between the extremes.

In short, our own personal shooting histories, however vast and however liberal our local big game laws might be - pale in significance - when compared to this study.

In short, the Swedish study of rifle effectiveness found - that no matter what caliber or cartridge was used - if the animal was poorly hit - they go a long way before they fall - if they fall at all. If the animal was hit with a well placed bullet, they fell quickly - and it didn't matter if the shooter was shooting the moose with a puny little 6.5 or a big macho 460. Give or take a few yards - any moose well hit with any big-game cartridge or caliber, and a good bullet will die within a few paces of any other moose - on average - if the sample is big enough.

All other findings - by individuals should be considered (in comparison) as being formed by "statistically too small a sample to be considered accurate" and should be accorded the appropriate weight of a statistically invalid study - when compared with studies that looked at the results of almost 10,000 animals of one single species - and a big tough animal, at that.

As noted previously by Steelhead, "Drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies." That certainly is the main portion of the equation.

But, looking at Nosler #6 Reloading Guide reveals velocities to be:

Cartridge 165 gr. 180 gr.
308 Winchester 2910 fps 2718 fps
30-06 3002 fps 2872 fps
300 H&H 3168 fps 3023 fps
300 Win Mag. 3290 fps 3160 fps
300 Weatherby 3242 fps 3198 fps

For most hunting the 308 will certainly do well, especially with premium bullets, but any extra 300-400 fps will deliver more energy with the same bullet and that's got to do more damage.

A bullet with more energy than another bullet, won't necessarily do more damage when it hits an animal's important organs. That is, if the bullet from the smaller round - was sufficient to penetrate the animal after expanding. If the slower bullet did fully penetrate, after expanding, then it did all any bullet could do.

A hole through an organ - is a hole through an organ.

A bullet with an excess of energy - for the job required of it - merely uses some of its energy on the air or rocks or vegitation behind the shot animal.

The expanse of jellied black and purple goo surrounding the bullet hole - doesn't count - as such a characteristic doesn't mean that a shot animal will die any faster - than one lacking that characteristic.

Although, there is no predicting as to whether such a characteristic may, or may not, impress the hunter.

So, what does DRT mean? Democrats Really Tax?

Dead Right There. I first heard this while investigating fatal car accidents. The real bad ones were- DRT.

I guess my only comment is that,if there is no difference between various cartridges,and "bigger/faster" does not count,then how come African pro's or others who deal with large, truculent animals all the time,use things like 375's 416's,etc.?

Somewhere along the "scale",caliber,frontal area, bullet weight and velocity must start to matter,no? Where is the break-point?

BTW I agree that a 270/7mm bullet from a 308 or 30/06 case kills anything on the continent;based on the moose study,we should be perfectly safe taking these cartridges against brown bear and cape buffalo;but we don't.How come?

I'm looking forward to the answer of your question Bob.

1AK: Should be fun.....

It isn't that hard. Just because two types of animal may weigh the same doesn't mean they have the same toughness and temperament. I don't see too many folks hauling out 500 NE doubles to go after Bullwinkle.

The question might be is/isn't the 375 H&H above the threshold on Cape Buffalo the same way a 308 is/isn't above the threshold on moose?

BobinNH
Good question- The interesting thing about studying terminal ballistics is that the more you study, the more contradictions one seems to unearth.
One thing I have noticed is that those people who's lives depend on stopping large animals is that they tend to go for more bullet weight and more frontal area, not more velocity.
My guess is that as one goes to more bullet weight and more frontal area, there is more likelyhood that the bullet will drill a straight line hole through said critter, and that on a corner to corner shot, the wound channel will be a lot longer and somewhat wider from a 375 than from a 7/08.
The straight line is important because you don't want the bullet veering off and going down the side of the rib cage instead of through the chest cavity.
The longer and deeper part increases the odds of clipping something, a nerve, artery or maybe part of the central nervous system, that will convince this big ugly animal to leave the hunter alone and go seeking last rites from the nearest priest.
If we shoot an elk and it goes 39 yards instead of 36 yards, it is of little consequence most of the time, and under the worst circumstances, might mean a nasty retrieval.
When a pro hunter has to stop a dangerous animal, if that animal goes an extra yard or two, that extra yard becomes very significant, because it might be over him and/or his client before said client has ponied up their last fees.
This is purely speculation on my part.
Fred