Ok all, lately I've read of more than a couple people toting an 06 loaded with 200's running @ 2700 fps. (comes up a lot when the 06 vs 338/06 debate comes up)

To date, in 21"-22" barrels I've not gotten to 2700 and have kind of alway thought that 2700 was a better speed for the 180's. I've gotten 180's to 2800 out of the 22" barrels but man I thought it was a Hot load.

And to date I've not reached close to 2700 (upper 25's to low 26's being the norm and what to date I've thought of top end) with the 200's out of what I would call standard length tubes for an 06.

So, here's my Q. Who alls had 06's that would do 2700, with standard barrel lengths. And....and with good primer pocket life?

Now if you've had a load clock it, but haven't shot that load in the same case repeatedly to see how long the primer pocket will stay tight please either don't comment and or comment with the caveat that you've not shot it enough to know what the honest case life will be like.

I picked up a box of 200's yesterday to do some more testing so am looking for particular powders and charges. And if you would, please state your actual powder charge as well.

Many thx for your time.

Dober

I don't see the point. If you need more velocity from the 200 grain bullet there are plenty of .300 magnums to choose from. Why stress your .30-06 out and shorten it's barrel life?

I get 2700 fps using a 200 grain Partition with 58.5 grains of Ramshot Hunter in WW cases with a Federal 215 primer. Primer pockets are still good after four firings. I can't tell you how much longer they will last for sure. I usually only use a case for five or so firings anyway.

Chet

Thx Chet-I appreciate it, I shoot for 10 case loadings and if I can keep em tight for that long I feel good about the load.

Also, Chet how long of a barrel are you using on this rig?

Some people I know will run a load that's hot enough to toss the cases after a couple 2 or 3 loads.

Dober

Mark, RL17 for me. It's gonna be hotter than you'll like though, you old reformed redliner, you!

Accuracy was poopy and I wasn't inclined to dink more with the load with the expensive 200-gn NAB's. I'd like to revisit it at some point (maybe with some Hunter!).

With H4350 2800+ fps is easy with 180's... works well to get 165's and 150's scooting along too.

I'm about to move my loading setup from my unheated shed, into my big new heated shop. Luxury! Starting to feel like the old bean can maybe take some shooting too.

Here's some notes of mine,

Nosler 200gr Accubond, moly�d
Brass: Win
OAL 3.40�
CCI 200
Reloader-22
60 gr � 2710 fps (24� bbl)
61 gr � 2750 fps (24� bbl)

W760
3.34�
56.0 gr � 2750 fps (24� bbl)
------------------------------------------------------------------

Hornady 208gr AMax, moly'd
Brass: Norma
OAL: 3.46" (3.47" OAL kisses lands, 15Feb08)
CCI-200 primer
Reloder-22
60 gr - 2660 fps - 57K psi (22.5� bbl)
61 gr - 2710 fps - 62K psi
62 gr - 2765 fps - 66K psi
63 gr - 2800 fps - 70K psi, flattening primer
64 gr - 2850 fps - 74K psi, flattening primer, brass flow in ejector, .002" web expansion
Reloder 17
55 gr � 2740 fps (22.5� bbl)
56 gr � 2760 fps
57 gr � 2810 fps, (slight brass flow in ejector)

W760
56 gr � 2700 fps (24� bbl sporter)

How much H4350 Jeff to get a 180 to 2800? And how long of a barrel? That seems steep to me with a 22" tube.

Dober

A couple of my everyday loads with the moly'd 208 AMax are 55gr RL17, and 60gr RL22. 2740 and 2720 fps respectively from the 22.5" Douglas bbl. Neither load is hard on the brass.

200g NAB
54.5g Rl-17
Fed Brass
CCI 250

2725fps from a 23" Broughton and 1/2-3/4 MOA

I'll be playing more with 208 Amaxes soon too but I've also had them to 2700 with RL-17.

Bb

That is with a 22" tube.

To be fair, that rifle has a snug custom chamber and seems to post pretty high velocities. I get 2820 fps out of JB's standard 58 grains of Hunter with a 180 Partition load. I have cases from that load that I have fired six times without any primer pocket problems.

Neck sized cases that have been fired in my factory M70 Featherweight will not chamber in the rifle above.

Chet

Disclaimer: I have not done it...

That said: Dober, this is why I jumped on a 300RSAUM like a chicken on a june bug when I found a Ruger M77MkII, with 22 inch tube, for $400. I want to set it up with a 200 grain Partition and a handload that achieves >= 2700 fps with minimal fuss...

...so I can talk smack to my son who drives a 24" barreled M700 in 30-06.

Pressure data for loads using 200 gr. Partitions (and more) in 30.06 has been posted at: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/4011018761

Marv

Honestly, that 200 grain Partition/Ramshot Hunter load is pretty darn versatile. It shoots into about .750" in my rifle. If you are a "one load for a rifle" sort of guy, it is pretty hard to beat.

You could load up 100 of those and "go fill arks" as someone around here likes to say.

Chet

By and large Chet I am a one round per gun kind of guy. I have a couple rigs I've used a ton for a long long time. I'm a firm believer in being as intimate as possible with a rig, so am not overly big on the concept of a new "serious" rifle very often.

This will be close, but my 3 main rifles I've had for 40 years, 20 years and 24 years. And, I run a lot of rounds and barrels thru them.

So yeah, I prefer one load for all that moves.

Fill up the arks baby...

Dober

And I should reemphasize, I really wish to have loads that have proven the test of time and case life. So, would prefer it that you've run the load in the cases close to 9-10x.

Short case life to me, and when primer pockets open up early means the loads too darn stout. At least for this kid.

Thx
Dober

I run the 200 gn NP's to 2700 in two '06's.

61.0 gns RL-22
CCI-250
2707 fps
pre-64 M-70 w/ a 24" barrel


54.0 gns RL-17
Fed-215
2698 fps
Ruger Express Rifle 23" barrel

On the 4th loading in the Winchester, and the 2nd in the Ruger and pockets remain tight


Gunner

Oh, and using W-W brass

Thats gonna be a tough one for a hunting rifle, as most brass as You know is purchased 50/100 per bag.

Gunner

Shouldn't be too tough if you just reload one case ten times over for the test.

Makes sense, but TFF anyway

Gunner

200 grain Nosler Partition

55 grains RL-17

Case: Norma, Some have been reloaded 3 times, still working good. Sparked by WLRP

2755 FPS

No PSI signs very accurate in my rifle.

Custom 700, 24 inch Lilja 3 grove.

59.5 grains of RL-22 gets me 2685 fps with winchester large rife primers. Other loads have broken 2700, but this load groups well. My rifle is a NULA with a 24 inch barrel.

Cool thread!

Agreed! And, a fantastic do it all bullet. I have been blessed to kill more than a few elk with this bullet over the years, it just flat hammers'em.

2700 seems a bit stout to me, not saying it can't be done (obviously, since it's being done).

How much "deader" will 2700fps kill something, over the same bullet at 2600 (or even 2500)??

For me, I was looking for a good shooting load not necessarily a " fast one "

I havent seen 2700 with a 200 in my 30-06's..But have seen 2800 with a 225 thru my whelen, go figure.

Altho it didnt seem to be to hot of load, i wasnt comfortable with it and backed it off a little.

Mark,

I used the 200 Partition for many years in the .30-06, but not too much for a few years now as I pretty much know what it will do, so have tried other stuff (pretty much what gun writers do). That said, I started loading the 200 Partition in the mid-1970's when it was a "semi-spitzer," with a relief groove, and have loaded the spitzer model since the late 70's in a bunch of rifles. Here's my data for various rifles:

Ruger 77 22"/ 60-H4831/ 200 Partition/ 2770 (1984)
" 61-R22 /200 Speer/ 2658 (1988)
FN Mauser 20"/60-H4831/ 200 Part./ 2659 (1989)
NULA M24 24" /59-H4831SC/ 200 Part./ 2690 (1995)
VZ24/E.R. Shaw 22"/ 59-H4831SC/ 200 Part./ 2667 (2002)
Rem. 700 ADL 22"/ 59-H4831SC/ 200 Part./ 2632 (2002)
Sedgely 24"/ 200 Lapua RNSP factory/ 2625 (2003)
Sauer 303 24"/ 200 Lapua RNSP factory/ 2677 (2010)

None of the above loads loosened primer pockets, and were recorded on various chronographs.

In recent years I've done most of my .30-06 loading with 180's and Ramshot Hunter. 58.0 grains with various 180's has gotten anywhere from 2750 in one 22" barrel to the high 2800's in my 24" NULA. Velocity depends a lot on the bullet and rifle. As an example, the Sierra GameKing has gotten anything from 2750 to 2826, depending on the rifle.

My guess is that Chet's load of 58.5 grains of Hunter would be a good one to try. Ramshot lists 57.7 as maximum with the 200 AccuBond, at a little less than 60,000 psi. My guess is that Chet's load with the 200 Partition would be under 65,000 psi, and get around 2700 from a 24" barrel.

200 AB
Win case
Win primer
RL 17 56.0 = 2,700 mv out of 22" barrel

I posted this on the "Elk Hunting" thread but will repeat it here.
I was at the range today with the following load:
58.5gr H4831SC, Fed 210, WW brass, 200gr. NP @ .030" off.
With the 24" barrel on my Kimber 84L I got a 17 string average of 2575fps. The groups were just over MOA and just over 2MOA at 200 yards. It was a little spunky off the bench in comparison to the 130's and 150's out of two .270's.

I did pretty much the same thing but I was launching 175 gr 7mm Bullets out of a 7mm Remington Mag. Pretty much the same thing, I was loading old surplus 4831 at the time and as far as I could tell MV was something in the rage of 2800 to 2900 fps. The 60 or so head of plains game I shot with that load in that 700 didn't seem to care a wit in Kenya 1971. My guess is that You would not be able to tell the difference either with 200 gr bullets out of an 06. It seems odd that Federal dose not load 200 gr Noslers in the 06 or 175 gr Partitions in the 7mm RM. I guess it would not sell very well.

What kind of pressure are we talking here that yields 9 or 10 loads per case?

Or, one could ask what kind of pressure are we talking that allows for 2-3 rounds per case...

Honestly, most of my loads will allow for the cases to be loaded 9-10 times. Do you feel that's abbynormal?

Dober

Mark
I'm lookin' the loads over myself.
Haven't seen any at 2700 I'd shoot..too much pressure, to suit me.
Will probably go with 2650 max. Should be around 59-60k

Great thread guys.

SU-I see it a bit differently,if a primer pockets only lasting 2 rounds and was accurate I wouldn't feel comfy with it. 4 me it'd be over the top hot for this kid and put me a bit out of my comfort zone.

Dober

I think if you try RL17, or RL22 you will make your speed goal, without hitting excessive pressure.

Some of my brass has been loaded 20-30 times with RL22 at those speeds.

I don't know if 9 to 10 reloads out of a case is abnormal or not- I usually don't try to keep cases past 6 or 7 loadings but have no idea what the norm is.

I've had cases go just fine to 10-13 loadings b4 the primer pockets got loose. Guess the way I see I'll keep using them as long as their still useable. Just the way I see it.

Dober

Good stuff JB-thx

Dober

My 06 is sporting a 24" barrel.

I'm using 185 vld with 57.0grs H4350 @ 2820.

Also have a good load with 208 amax with 58.0grs Hunter @ 2710 fps.

How's the case life Trails?

Dober

Mark, my comment was in general not for the RL17 load. That one is perfectly safe and worth trying.

Honestly I feel safe shooting that 200 grain load in my 30-06, I have a nice rifle and the last thing I would want is to jeopardize my rifle or my health or someone else.

I do need to try JB's load with the 180 grain bullet and Hunter powder.

Spring Bear: 338-06 or 30-06 with 200 grain bullets. Gee, life is so hard.. lol

So far I have 4 firings on the R&P case. I did an OCW test and 57.5,58,and 58.5 all hit same POI. I went up to 59grs. but got sticky bolt. I'm pretty happy with 2700.

RL17 in a Steyr Forester (23" barrel IIRC)

Start lower and work up like I did

# / bullet / weight / BC / OAL / comparator / powder / charge / fps

Nosler brass, body die, lee collet, washered, mica'ed, Fed215M
Load 4 ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL17 52.5 2615
Load 4 ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL17 53.0 2617
Load 4 ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL17 53.5 2654
Load 4 ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL17 54.0 2649
Load 5 ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL17 54.5 2713
Load 4 ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL17 55.0 2742
Load 4 ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL17 55.5 2758

Std load test ACCU 200 0.588 3.365 3.750 RL22 60.0 2628



Elk at 150 yds





On 6th firing on those cases

I don't see why the case life is any shorter with a 200gr vs. a 150gr? If you are loading up to near max and not redlining, the case life and tight primer pockets should be possible at either ends of the spectrum.
Ditto for someones comments on barrel life. Unless I missed something in handloading "101" the only difference should be velocities, accuracies and game performance.

Heavy bullets are notorious for giving shorter barrel life than light bullets. Not sure exactly why.

Case life, OTOH, I don't believe there is a difference. That seems to be solely a function of pressure.

Help me understand the advantages of a 200 grain ACCU over a 180 grain NPT. I reload too so I'm always looking for a better load, but I don't see the point.
According to my software there is an energy (just one factor, of course) advantage for the 200 but it doesn't seem significant. The velocity advantage goes to the 180, as I get 2850 ft/sec or so MV with 59.0 gr. Hunter, compared to 2700 ft/sec for the 200.
The MPBR when sighted in 2.25" high at 100 is nearly the same.
It's fun to talk about and I like the thread, but what's the point?

P

.588 BC and a tip that doesn't deform in the mag.

Bb

I would agree for better wind drift, and BC. I bet the 200gr accubond puts the hammer to game, I know I can tell the difference from 180 to 208gr when it hits steel.

Most long heavier bullets have more bearing surface, therefore some say shorter barrel life.

To me, in a standard chambering [30-06], and it being a hunting rifle, and most of us having plenty of rifles to shoot, i dont think I would notice the difference in barrel life.

Gunner

Those plastic tips deform and break off occasionally too.

Also, it is a fact that a little tip deformation does not affect B.C. nearly as much as people want to believe.

Just the way I see it but, for me the idea of the 200 in lieu of the 180 or lighter is to stack the odds in favor of getting 2 holes on critters. Especially large big game like elk and moose etc.

If, I'm going long (400 and beyond) my rig will have dotz or turrets. MPBR has nothing at all to do with it for me.

Dober

Sub 400, which is where most have experience with I'd say you're right. IME it's where one goes long that lil things like this come into play.

Dober

had this conversation a few years ago, and I got flamed all over the place, until some one came on and supported me...

when he got the wise ass questions of " you got pressure testing equipment to verify that with???"... the poster answered yes.. and gave his phone number if anyone wanted to call him to verify or talk about it...

it had a 541 area code, and when you called it, the receptionist answered "Nosler Bullets".. well that thread became like page 3 or 4 within a very short time.. and the naythesayers disappeared like crazy...

but like the gentleman from Nosler said and supported me.. you can't get enough 4831SC into an 06 case to over pressurized it in regard to SAAMI specs...

in a 22 inch barrel velocity with a 200 grain Speer, exceeded 2800 fps... so 2700 with a 200 in a 21 inch barrel shouldn't be a big deal...

and I loaded up several cases to test primer pocket life... after 10 reloads they were still tight on the 11th primer inserted into them..

I've been using the 200 gr. Nosler Partition on my custom '06 for a while.
Tested on a warm day, 89 degrees, I loaded and shot both 60 grs. and 61 grs. of H4831SC in 4X fired WW cases. No pressure signs, and after the test the primer pockets were tight. Brass had been previously loaded 4 times with a 59 gr. charge of H4831 w/ the same 200 gr. NP's. That load clocks 2672 out of my 24 inch Pac-Nor barrel.
I'm satisfied it is a good practical load. Zeroed at +2.3 inches at 100 yds., she's down 7 inches at 300 yds. E

22" tube and a 200 @ 2800, I gotta ask how much H4831 were you pouring to it? I'd have to guess 61 or 62?

Dober

Hello Mark,

Fantastic thread!! I am starting to work with the .30-06. I have got a nice FN-Akah from the sixties. It has a 60 cm barrel almost new. I have only 165 and 180 grs bullets (Rem Core-Lockt and Hornady Spire Point flat base). The only powders we have here right now are the Alliant Reloder series, minus R17 (of course!!)I have R22 and R19. This powders are, in some lots, almost the same thing, in my experiences with a 7x57.
My goal is to achieve simmilar velocity/trayectory in the .30-06 with 180-200 grs bullets as with 160-175 grs bullets in the 7x57 (Mauser also with 60 cm barrel).
Actually I can get 2750 fps with 160 grs, and 2650 fps with 175 grs and R22 in the 7x57 with very good case life (+7).
From what I am reading in this post I understand I should get my goal easely!!
With my other BG rifle, a Pre-64 .375 H&h, I use 260/270 and 300 grs bullets loaded at 2800/2700 fps and 2600 fps, respectively. And almost the same trayectory as with the 7x57.
I also am a one (or two) loads/gun guy!

Thank you!

Best Regards

PH

Good stuff J...thanks for posting
We'll talk soon!

In two or three 06's I've shot 200 Speers over 59 I4831 and had repeatable accuracy with good case life. Have never chronied it so can't help there.

Jim

Pardon me for getting off topic here,



I'll tell ya Mark, I'm done with Accubonds. I just talked with my brother last night about some 300 WSM rounds using 200's I loaded for him, his son, and a friend for an AZ elk hunt this past Nov-Dec.
All 3 got their bulls, nice average bulls between 700 and 850 lbs.

On every kill they recovered the 30 cal 200 Accubond. All 3 elk were killed between 75 and 200 yards. All 3 elk were hit in the lungs.
All 3 bullets never made it to the opposite hide. Two of the bullets were still in the lungs of the bulls. They thought that odd as I was pitching them how well the 200's should penetrate.
Yeah, I know, how dead is dead and they killed the elk. Two of the bulls mosied off another 75 yards and laid down then got up when approached to be finished off. The 3rd bull went 40 yards and stood there while they put a couple of more behind the shoulder. He was dead of course and his lungs where filling up. They just didn't want to wait another 5 or 10 minutes before he would fall over.

I've also killed two large mule deer using the 30/200 AB. Both times the bullet never made it out of the animal. Yeah picture performance that makes everyone here at the fire go gagaoooowow!

I just don't like that kind of performance. I like Partition performance on elk. Where it sheds its front for tissue damage and I don't recover the bullet. I want two holes on an animal unless I use a Berger VLD then I know what to expect from that species of bullet.

From now on its Partitions for elk and Ballistic Tips for deer as far as using Nosler bullets.

I don't buy into the thought that the AB is just a tipped Partition. Baloney on that.

I also don't buy into that hooey touting the light for caliber Barnes being the equal of a heavier Partition.

Just my ramblings my Big Sky friend...

Ive loaded 200 grain speer bullets in 30/06 cases with 60 grains of h4831, over a fed 215 primer for a good many years as almost a standard elk load in our hunting group, groups tend to be consistent, accurate and deadly on elk, velocity on my chronograph varies with the rifles obviously but about 2580 fps is close to an average
Ive yet to see a well placed shot using that load not result in a very dead elk
http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=103

I agree.I'd load the Partition.

I like(very much) the 200gr Partition in my 300 RUM-sounds like it is pretty darn good at ought-six speeds,also. Not surprised...

Very good stuff SU, thx.

I've been very much a Nozler brand fella for a long time. The NPT and NBT are pretty much my world. And I totally concur with you about the light Barnes theory as well. Most of the people I see toting this are mainly working with small big game (IE deer/lope/black bruins etc). I've known of more than a few light Barnes staying inside, and yeah I get it that they came from dead animals but I like/want/desire two holes on game and with elk that's where bullets are tested.

And yeah, I'm with you on the VLD concept as well.

Dober

I'd also have no problem using a 168 BT on elk over the AB.

....+1...It is probably more of a curiosity issue than anything else just to see what one`s rifle can do.

Most 21" to 22" barreled `06 rifles from what I`ve read and imo, might be hard pressed getting 2700 fps with a 200 gr bullet. Much more likely from the 24" and 26" tubes.

In the field, what can a 30 cal 200 grainer moving at 2700 fps from the muzzle do, that a 30 cal 200 grainer moving @ 2550-2600 fps cannot?............Nothing.

Says the guy who shoots nothing but whizbang magnums and is proud of it...

Ironic...

.....Yep! Like them whizzy bang mags. But my first rifle at 9 years old was a 30-06.

An `03 Enfield sporterized conversion my dad had converted over.

Had it for quite awhile growing up. Was a nice piece.

Stress? shorten barrel life? what a joke....

You guys should just get 300 Savages and be happy then.

btw, squeeze, I thought you were dead?

A few benefits come with the extra vels, less drift, a little flatter traj. and to help ensure proper bullet expansion should you need to stretch it out a bit while in the field.

Gunner

Is THAT as far as it penetrated ? ?
You MIGHT need a little more velocity.



Sorry, I thot about this for a while. I could not help it.

How are we shortening barrel life by running a 200 Gr. bullet at 2800 FPS ???

You do realize that every time you pull the trigger on a heavy bullet in a 30-06, you shorten your life by the same amount of time the bullet spends in the barrel?

TC

r t l - I agree with you. I don't think it does. Only one possible reason;

higher heat from more powder burned.

I remember the thread quite well, I too think that the gentleman didn't mince too many words about it and put a pretty fine point on it in his commentary about what their pressure testing proved out also.
Great thread Dober and very informative
BD

You were tougher than me and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I couldn't handle the recoil of an '06 until my mid teens.

.......When 9 years old, my dad goes here,,,,,,"Like it or not, its all yours!"

Wasn`t easy at first, but I got use to it ok. 150 gr factory ammo wasn`t too bad for recoil. Didn`t graduate to a 30-06, I instead jumped right into one.........Thanks dad.

Doesn't look like any strain to get 2900 fps out of a 300 Win Mag or the whizzum either with 200 gr NPT. With a 200 yd zero you gain 1.5" at 300 and 3.5" at 400 over the 2700 fps goal you have. In the field I'll bet most can't hold any tighter than that, myself included. Mark you are building an itch in me to try some 200 NPT's in both my 06 and 300's. Hmmm that .481 BC at 2950 would just about match the dots in my 3x9 Leupold with LR Duplex reticle on my 300 win mag hmmm. Good thread. Magnum Man

I posted my 180vs.200 numbers over on the thread I started on the Elk Hunting site. The difference is about 2% which is nothing. The recoil is about 2 ft/lbs more with 200's but that is predictable. Unless like Dober said, a better chance of a pass through or with the "raking" shot.........However if one bullet was noticeably more accurate, then that would change things. the

I believe if thats true that your life would be longer the faster you push the bullet through the barrel.

The 200 is not flight ballistics but terminal ballistics.

Yes--though the flight isn't bad at all!

The 200-grain Nosler Partition is perhaps the most predictable bullet I've ever used on big game. It shoots flatter than most people would guess, penetrates VERY deeply, and kills well without messing up much meat.

It's also very accurate, at least for those who play around with variables the same way they would with a supposedly more inherently accurate bullet.

Dober,
You are right on track looking for a load that allows 10 firings from a case.

I occasionally go to the range with some ol' boys who are retired, and have nothing better to do than hotrod the snot out of 06's. They got the moolah to go through custom barrels on a whim.....mostly 24 and 24 in bbls.

I've seen some pretty amazing velocity through our chrono's with RL22--Like 2900+ fps with 180gr Sierras.

It took some quizzing on my part, but they finally admitted after a few firings their cases were toast.

Back in the early/mid 90's several of us had unlimited access to a Oehler M43 Ballistics Lab. My 06AI w/22 in bbl does about 2800fps with 200gr Noz Pt's and 57gr of IMR4831. Try as I might, I couldn't match that velocity with H4831.

I be skeptical of 22 in bbl 06's breaking 2700fps with 200 grainers and stay under pressure.

Now, if we want to ignore SAAMI max pressures, and make the 06 run the same pressures as the 30-06 Improved..........


Casey

Seafire 10/01/07

after that testing posted above.. I went further and verified to myself, that one could go 10 reloads with that load and still have a tight primer pocket on the 11th reload...

I was using Large rifle primers.. with Win and Rem 30/06 brass...
so with Lapua brass.. brass life would be.....???

My highest velocity this past Monday was 2606 fps with an 17 shot string average of 2575fps. That was with a 200 NP with 58.5 gr. H4831 and a Fed 210. Nosler #6 has velocities on either side of 2600. My 84L has a 24" barrel. But accuracy trumps velocity for me all the time.

My notes show that in 1990 I tested some 200 Sierra G/Ks and worked up to 60.5 grains of old H-4831 ($1.65 was on the can). I got 2730 fps out of my M.70 and 5 loadings on the cases before I decided 200 grains wasn't quite needed for 130# W/T deer.

I calculated the recoil of a 200/2700/60gr, 175/2950/65, and a 130/3100/60 with rifle weight of 7. The numbers for the 30-06 load and the Big 7 are identical-27.5. The 270 is 18.7. Interesting.

Mmmmm.......................yes, interesting....

Not surprising though.

If you can't get 9 or 10 reloads per case you're flatly running too hot IME.

Not particularly scientific, but true none-the-less.

Just for the sake of interest, I was looking at my copy of Lyman's 49th addition reloading manual.. and under the 06 on page 225 is listed the following:

1. 60 grains of H4831SC, 180 grain Sierra HP, 2840 fps and 50,000 CUP.

2. 59 grs of H4831SC, 190 grain Sierra HP, 2724 fps and 47,200 CUP.

3. 58 gr of H 4831SC, 200 gr Sierra HP, 2620 fps, with a 46,300 CUP pressure..

even tho the load is compressed, noticing that the pressure is 46,000 CUP range, also notice that even tho the bullet weight has increased, the pressure is declining from the load with a 180...

so working up from the 58 grain mark, I was getting higher velocity, but it still did not hurt the brass life from Overpressurization...as tested with 10 reloads...

Brad
Do you anneal cases?

What is an '03 Enfield exactly?
Never heard of a .30-06 '03 Enfield. Sounds interesting.

..........IIRC, it was an old Enfield military rifle made in 1903 or thereabouts, that my dad had converted over to a sporterized 30-06 hunting rifle.

Could have been an M1 Garand? I only saw the rifle once before the conversion was done in early 1961. I remember my dad saying it was an Enfield.....Maybe it wasn`t.

What's the optimum impact velocity for deepest penetration?

I know there are variables pertaining to different bullet designs.

speaking of a 200gr cup/core bullet in the 30-06, will 2700 fps pentrate more, or less, than the same bullet at 2500 fps, or 2300 fps?

As speed goes up, so does bullet deformation, which inhibits penetration.

Obviously bullet expansion is desired, but there must be a happy medium where balance between expansion and penetration is optimum.

1917 Enfield
1903 Springfield

Two different rifles

Was it a semi-auto?

I've never used a .30-06 with 200's, but I have a question related to this statement.

What wouldn't a .338 210 grn Partition started out at 2700 - 2750 fps give adequate penetration on? Take that a step further, what wouldn't an ordinary Speer or Hornady 200 grn .338 bullet started at 2700 -2750 fps be adequate for? If these already penetrate "enough", than what's to gain by using something with "more"?
I get the increased BC of the 200 grain .30 cal, but how many dudes are using a .30-06 for long range work where you actually see this difference anyway?

There is no need to use a 200 grain bullet in the '06... think it was Phil Shoemaker that wrote on someones book killing the record Brown Bear for years with a 180 grain out of the '06.

The 200 in the '06 is Internet babble.If a 180 Nosler won't do it,it's time to move up in speed and caliber like a 300 Win Mag at 2930 fps with factory ammo and a 200 grain Nos.

The '06 isn't famous for 200 grain hand loaded bullets at 2700+ fps.

Just my opinion having been around the '06 hunting for over 50 years.

Jayco

.....No. It was a bolt action all-right. I remember it had nearly a full length wood stock on it and my dad said that it was originally a military rifle. Now I`m curious to find out what it really was.

After the conversion, it was mine to shoot and hunt with (under dad`s supervision) until early 1967 when my parents split and later divorced. He took possession of that rifle. I never saw it again after that, or him since 1972.

Maybe it was a 1917 Springfield? Maybe he got his "fields" mixed up between an En-field and a Spring-field.

Have you ever used a 30-06 with 200s?

Yes and 220's....Both Noslers......

I have a 300 Win Mag for heavy bullets and a 375 H&H when the Elk get bullet proof.

Jayco

Even though Phil chooses to use 200-220 grain out of his '06 for "Brown Bear"..He wrote this................

This afternoon I was just re-reading Jim Reardon's new book where he discusses the world record Brown Bear hunt. That bear, which they estimated weighed 1300-1400 pounds, squared an honest (as opposed to streched) 10' 5". Ray Lindsey killed it at 30 yards with his 30-06 and 180 gr bullets

Jayco

Stunt

Has to be huh..Gotta have atleast a 200 in the '06 to kill anything.

Jayco

Just joking with ya, have a good day.

Look like any of these?...

It`s been 51 years since I saw that rifle before the conversion and it was only for a few minutes.

It had a bolt action. Had nearly a full lengthed wood stock. No scope. Had a rear (peep?) site and had front iron sites as I remember. My dad bought it from a p/p and a smith did the conversion.

After the conversion, the receiver looks similar to your 2nd pic.

Could have been a Springfield. I really don`t know.

Every 4th loading. But that obviously has nothing to do with primer pockets.

Mac-I've been loading for 4 decades now and have never annealed a case, not even sure how to do it or what the bene's are supposed to be? Could give me/us the short version of what you feel it does for you and or your loads?

Gracias

Dober

Brad
In all the years I have been posting on the 24 Hour Campfire, you are one of the very very few people that I have bumped up against.
To my face you have been fawning and obsequious and over the internet you have been sarcastic and pedantic.
Every post that I make that calls into question one of Dobrenski's statements you chime in with your two cents worth.

I have watched and ignored as both you and Dobrenski talked about going to your "ranch" "in the Shields Valley" to do your long distance shooting and never pointed out that your "ranch" is 20 acres of sagebrush with no animals on it. IK watched as your posted five or six of Dobrenski's rifles with the claim that each "had killed hundreds of animals".
I have watched as you screamed that others didn't have enough experience to make claims, yet on the basis of having killed 20 elk, you claim expertise on every bullet that is mentioned, from 25 to 375 caliber.
You are a master at implying experience way beyond what you have.
In the future, if you want to act like a little prick towards me, let me know, and I'll be glad to drive to Bozeman or Ennis or where the hell ever you are and you can do it to my face.

Fred

You've gone out of your mind... yes, my piece of the "ranch" is 20 acres as I've always said (have always said "ranch" tongue-in-cheek), but it's part of (adjoining) a property that I have access to that is over 2,000 acres with a lot of animals on it. Makes LR shooting pretty simple. What you don't know about me and those friends that own this ground is extensive.

You're one of the most emotionally crippled people I've ever been around and I do feel bad saying that. You're bitter and petty with a mean-streak a mile deep.

Next time we run into each other, you can say all that you want to face-to-face... or you can just ignore me like you did Dober in Helena last week.

BTW, not sure how you came up with that tirade based on this...

Mark, I have never annealed cases either but what I have read leads me to think that brass gets brittle after several loadings. Annealing brings back the elastisity (?) I think. Preventing split necks and maybe help with neck tension. The way to do it that I have read about is to hold the brass about halfway down with your fingers (or was it closer to the base?) and place the neck area over a candle (while rotating) till it gets hot enough to make you want to let go. Dropping it into a cup of water. If I am wrong someone please correct me. I have been considering doing it with my present brass.

Dober, I'm only in my 3rd decade of handloading so I'm a relative novice compared to many here. There's a lot of ways to anneal... I prefer the old simple, "spin and dunk" method.

Benzomatic torch, 5 gal bucket with some cold water in it.

Hold the case base (lower 1/3rd of the case) in your finger tips and spin it in the blue flame of the torch. When it gets too hot to hold, drop it in the waiting bucket of water... you now have an annealed case. You KNOW it's annealed by the blue line that has crept down the case neck to just below the case shoulder. I like to see the blue go about 1/4" below the shoulder.

I've noticed pressures and velocity climb with work-hardened cases (IMO/E, those that haven't been annealed beyond four or five reloads).

I dry the cases by putting them on a cookie sheet in the oven on low for 1hr.

I ain't Brad and I slept in my own bed last night, but.......

Not always, but most of the time when brass starts getting work hardened, they become more likely to have more runout when sized--FL, PFLR, or Nk sized.

I've used various propane torches to anneal until I tried JB's recommended method of a candle and holding the case in the middle until too hot, and then dropping the brass onto a wet paper towel and wiping the soot off--it works--very well so far.

In the past I have sized a number of pieces of work hardened brass, checked runout, annealed them, and ran'em through the sizing die again, and had less neck runout with the newly annealed brass than prior to annealing. It demonstrated to my satisfaction one clear benefit to annealing.

Casey

Ahh hah I was close?! I will try it this time, lord knows with my handloading I don't need anything against me.

Casey, I don't measure run-out, but I have noticed a drop in velocities going from the 4th or 5th handload to the same case after having been annealed... can only assume the elevated velocities from the non-annealed cases means work-hardening and increased pressure.

I didn't sleep in my own bed last night, but will tonight

Different neck tension from the harder cases affecting pressure?

Likely the best explanation.

Interesting--I'm gonna have to pay attention to that next time.


Casey

And honsetly Brad, concentricity has become one of the most important aspects of handloading for accuracy with me--even in plain-jane hunting rigs.

One thing I have noticed in recent times is the more concentric the load, the bigger the sweet spot in terms of bullet to lands distance.

Casey

That's generally true--though I have also noticed that bullets with lonh shanks (such as the 200 Partition) aren't as sensitive to run-out.

I don't dispute that one bit, I'm just not that interested in that level of minutia. Personally, I'm doing every thing I can to simplify handloading and to do it less.

Thanks for the explanation. Very concise.

P

Pharm, you're welcome. Only thing I should have made clearer is you're aiming the blue flame at the shoulder.

I think most people get the brass too hot.


Just my 2 cents.

<g>

I really like that bullet.

It's impossible to get the brass too hot if it's in your fingers (provided you're not a masochist). The blue line tells the rest of the story.

I know Brad, my comment was not directed at you.

I was going off what I have seen a few of my friend do. I should of been more clear.

Huh....never thought of that.Good point!

No problem at all.

+1... what I don't know about handloading would fill volumes.

And it will likely stay that way.

Hey Royce, like everything you said, the above kind of made me scratch my head as I never remember saying any such thing, so I dug around and found the post I put up of Dober's rifles... there is absolutely no claim or implication anywhere by me that each rifle "had killed hundreds of animals"... funny thing is though, those rifles likely have

I made that post as a gesture of kindness for a really good man and friend. Just like jealousy is a sad thing, friendship is a wonderful thing, and you might like to try it some time.

Just thought I'd further clarify for you...

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4930286/Dober_Rifles

Isn't the simple answer, in the search for this holy grail, to just use a longer barrel?

I would hypothesize that with a 25-inch or 26-inch barrel, you could get the 200@2,700 and have long case life.

The new Model 70 Alaskans have 25-inch barrels and are available in .30/06. I might have to buy one just to test my own thesis.

I've attained 2,700 with a 200-grain bullet in 24-inch barrels but I doubt that I could get 10 reloads out of those cases.

Anyone?

There's an answer to the 2700fps-200 gr question in the 30/06.It's called a 300 Win Mag.

and on the other side of the coin if we examine the BC of a 200 grain spitzer type bullet in 30 caliber what is to be gained in 100 fps or so of velocity in terms of downrange drop and energy?

sometimes this all seems like mental masturbation!

Come on now Bob, we all know a 300 WM will go 2,900

Well bluefish it isn't a question of the extra 100 fps(although a quick look at the Nosler manual will tell you we are looking at 200 to 270 fps more velocity if we assume that 2700 is all the velocity from a 30/06)which IS a difference that you will see on the range,and benefits to be derived at distance.See Mule Deer's comments on killing ability when the bullet is driven faster.....But a question of how easily one gets there.

It is pretty clear that 2700 fps is absolute max with the cartridge,but 2900 or a bit better is pretty "normal" in the larger 300 Win Mag case.

Reading this thread,it is clear that some are getting the velocity from a 24" barrel, but the question seems to rear its' head about how much pressure it is taking to "get there".

Since most pressure problems occur when we "reach" for that last 100 fps,even if we get it, we are rolling on the ragged edge...a place I don't like to operate because we get away with it most of the time,but a minor switch in components,or other issue and we are over the top.

I guess my approach would be in a 22" barrel with the 30/06 I would stick in that 2600 fps realm and be happy with what I had.....but if I wanted a 24" barreled rifle for the chore of pushing a 200 gr bullet for ultimate effect,it would be chambered for a 300 Win Mag. This would give me what I want (easily)in the same weight/length rifle,easily beat the 30/06 without a cold sweat,and give me peace of mind that I was not tampering on the ragged edge.

I know this because I have run the 200 from both the 300 Win and 300 Weatherby,and used the combo on elk.It works splendidly,and zeroed properly you ain't gonna need any dots or turrets until you are well past 400 yards.

I've always been comfortable getting 2,650-ish (+/-) with a 22" 30-06 and 200's...

Oh stop it!.....

My 30-06AI with a 22 inch bbl will just about hit 2800fps with 200gr Pt's--it's my fav load in that rifle. It's just that the rifle is lightweight, recoils more, and isn't necessary to kill critters at tough angles and most reasonable distances here in the Southern Rockies--my 270's will do that with aplomb.......

Casey

Brad I know! That's my point!See post above.

Its all about safe exploitation, performance upgrade if you will, wringing out anything to a sane max to test its capabilities is why were all here, its what a man does

Gunner

gunner I understand....comment withdrawn...

Continue!

NO NO Bob, you men please continue, i'm trying to learn something here i've already [learnt] my own mindless babble.

Gunner

One of my biggest concerns about using brass more than 5 or six times is case head separation, and that can be a time consuming matter to check for. The last thing I want is to be on a mountain somewhere and have half a case stuck in my chamber.
Say that brass costs $.50 each. If you use it 5 times, that makes the cost ten cents per round, and if you use it ten times, the cost drops to 5 cents a shot. For that extra five cents a shot, I'd rather do away with feeling each case with some kind of probe and/or taking a chance on case separation. Also, using the case only five times means I don't usually have to worry about annealing.

Fred

Fred, there is a real low risk in CHS after only 5 or 6 firings IF folks head space correctly. Annealing works wonderfully also, if done right. But, new brass is easy to obtain also...

So Fred,

if you reload, do you check and make sure your ammo will chamber in your firearm while you are at your reload bench first?

when sizing a case, you don't make sure it will freely chamber in your intended firearm...

between neck sizing, annealing every 4th reload, and being a little conservative on the powder scale...and watching your cases before heading out on a hunt as such... shouldn't be a problem... if at all concerned...why not just use new brass?

I don't know about anyone else, but I usually never load more than 10 rounds of brass for a hunting season.. if I shoot any of it, I just come home and reload it...

cases are going to show obvious signs of potential head separation...

only times I have had it happen to me has been out varmint hunting, high volume shooting for sage rats...and the brass was on its 40th reload or so... in either 22.250 or 223...

Seafire
No, I don't chamber my reloaded ammo at the bench to make sure it will chamber- I usually use new brass for my hunting loads, and probably wouldn't chamber a hot round in the house anyway.
I usually load about 20 to 40 rounds for hunting season and use some more once fired brass to bring my stock up to 60 rounds. Big game here starts in Sept, and between plinking at coyotes and prairie dogs while hunting, rechecking the zero, helping buds finish game and having a back up box of ammo stashed, that is what I feel comfortable with. Typically, I start the season with 6 or 8 big game tags in my pocket, counting the anterless ones.
Using the brass only a few times gets me away from a lot of annealing and case trimming for not too much added expense- That is worth it to me-
Fred

No country for old men here.

I like my hunting loads hot and could give a rip if I get more than 5 loads out of case.

Thinking we had that one pegged SU...

Luv ya Bro

Dober

I just got back from a quick trip to the hills to test out Seafires load for the 200 NP and H4831 SC.

Started at 60 grains and moved up to his load of
63.5.
End result, out of a cleaned 22" barrel I got 2,750 mv. I spect that once that bore dirties up a bit that it will be pushing 2,800 mv.

No signs of pressure at all from the load.

The rifle is a 700 Ti and I have a scope on the way for it. (I shot over the chrony w/o a scope.) Once I get the scope on next week. I'll take one piece of virgin brass and my loading stuff to the range and see how many times I can shoot it without the primer falling out.

You're the new Chancellor of the Red-Liner League!

Gotta love your honesty though...

I tell ya, just load it hot enough to blow out the primer, saves wear and tear on the decapping part of the sizing die.

Yup..My factory Federal HE 200 grain Noslers are 2930 fps.Don't understand the internet "Need for Speed"..Few can write about any caliber without the fps included like it is supposed to impress someone when tons and tons of game have been shot with factory SAAMI ammunition,especially in 30-06.

Jayco

Brad, a little tongue cheek here. Unlike the Roy fans, you won't find me over Sami psi.




Nope,

I have a 5 lb 6 oz (with Talleys) 22" barrel elk chasing rifle that begs to differ. I have a need for speed for longish down range bullet expansion.
That puts me about 600 yds @ 1,800 fps.

Great thread, I have a 24" '06 comming my way and now I'm thinking about 200gr Gamekings, Accubonds and Partitions....

I loaded 59 grains of old H-4831 behind a 200 Partition for 2700 FPS back in the 80's. That load was not hard on brass at all. I do want to hear how the 63.5 grain load goes for you

I'm having fun with the last two range trips. But unlike SU35, I'm not starting over the manual and proceeding, but under it and progressing. Easy there SU35, I'd have to drag out my old "Second Chance Vest" and a full face shield if I went to the range with you!

I hope no one here really wants to redline a 200/30-06 cause if you do, Bobinnh has the solution. But I don't want to go there. I just want something a little edgy than a 180gr. in a 30-06 case.

Hey, started at 60 grains then 61 grains and so on to 63.5. No signs..

Wow. Great thread. Gotta admit, i was dubious. They are some seriously big charges.

How's the recoil with the Ti?

Just got in from the range, ran 200 Speers out of my Mom's Pre 70/06 Fwt with 22" barrel. Fed brass and 200 CCI's. Used H4831 regular cut and not Short Cut.

I shot one and only one round of each charge so it wasn't much of a test but did stick my toe in the H20.

It was sunny and 38* or so, and keep this in mind. I also clocked my .260 and the I did 3 rounds with the sun out went 3051/3065/3086 and 3 with it right at sun down it went 2989/2982/2982. Point being, it makes me wonder if my 06 readings were good or not?

Will add, that I'm missing the front screen for my clock so maybe this has/had something to do with it? Tons about working with a clock I don't understand.

But, to my point here's what I had for readings (one round each charge remember)

59=2629

60=2666

61=2721

62=2812

I haven't resized and reseated a primer yet. The 62 charge looked pretty flat but not like a pancake and it was just starting to crater a bit. Thinking it'd have some issues if the temp was another 30 degree or so warmer.

Will do more testing and report later.

I had another 06 with me but unfortunately the rounds wouldn't chamber in it so couldn't run two diff 06's at the same time.

Fun BG stuff to play with in the cold of winter.

Dober

Ain't the ol' 06 freekin' great?!

Yes it is great! One of my favorite big game cartridges ever!


By the way, the big gem of this whole thread is chit squezze not knowing the difference in a M1 Garand, 1903 springfield and a 1917 enfield and getting caught red fingered in his own chit again.

Hey, he's dead, cut him some slack.

Betcha five bucks that I know less than you!

Didn't notice. I shot it today without a scope too. It will have a 2.5x8 with BC reticle.


I'm used to much more out of the 300 WSM in a 7 lb rifle.

Mark,

Interesting results and worth playing and testing with!

One thing for me, for an 06, it's gotta be a 22" barrel.

yeah I want to see how the primer life is, for me I want some life or I'm gonna back off. This testing was done at fairly cool weather and I'd think it'd be a bit toasty of a load when it warms up.

Side note, my 06 and my 300 WSM both shoot 155 Hybrids into bug holes!

Dober

The 2011 Hodgdon annual manual lists actually pressure tested maximum loads with the 200gr Accubond at 59.0grs at 2586fps and the 200gr Speer sp at 57.5grs at 2577fps.

Alliant lists 58.0 GPRS of RL-22 with the 200gr Speer at 2499.

If you are loading more powder and getting higher velocities you aren't some sort of advanced reloaded or possessor of a magic "fast barrel", you are simply loaded to higher than normal pressures.

Higher pressures might or might not be safe indefinitely in your gun, just don't try and kid yourself that you aren't pushing the envelope..............dj

Mark I though you were looking hard at the scenar 155's - whats up with the 200's?

Curiosity more than anything. Both my 06 and my 300 shorty mag shoot the 155 Scenar and 155 Hybrid incredibly well.

On a thread recently about the 338/06 there was talk to the effect of use a 200 out of a 30 @ 2700 and call it a day. I've generally found somewhere in the low to mid 26's to be about top end. And had not pushed a 200 over 2600.

Long and the short I just wanted to see how the brass would handle 2700 or so.

It's winter and ballistic gack can be sort of fun to play with. I like to use primer pocket life as an indicator of pressure. So, I asked the question of those backing the idea (on the 338/06 thread)of a 30/200 @ 2700 to see if many had good case life at those speeds. Not many could report on the case life, though several reported that it was just fine.

No bigga casa grande and just fun and giggles is all.

When it's all said and done I like my .270, my 300 shorty mag and my 7 Mashburn and don't do much with the 06. All of those do what I want them to do and I'm comfy with them.

Lastly, in this day or turrets/dotz/BP or whatever I generally find top end speed and back off 100 fps. It's still easy for me to do my work at longish ranges and I don't have to push it.

Dober

One thing I did notice while playing around with an external ballisitics calculator is that using the 200gr accubond at 2700fps does allow you to keep Nosler's min impact velocity of 1800 to out past 600 yds, for the long range hunters this is a plus.

Has anyone used the Sierra 200gr GameKing on heavy critters like elk or moose?

I used to shoot 220 hornady's with rl-22 out of my '06. Velocity was around 2500 f.p.s. Worked really well on deer at woods ranges.

dj,

The SAAMI maximum pressure standard for the .30-06 is 50,000 CUP/60,000 psi, way below the standards for similar rounds such as the .270. This is solely due to older rifles in .30-06, not because of any quirks in the cartridge itself.

According to one of the basic laws of internal ballistics, when using single-based powders (such as H4831, whether standard or short-cut) pressure increases at twice the rate of veloicity.

So if we load the .30-06 to 64,000 psi (the same level as the .270), rather than the 58,000 psi level Hodgdon shows for them, then velocity will increase about 5%--right around 2700 fps.

Sounds like someone better get to a pressure testing lab, real quick! This is getting too interesting.

Dober, I believe it was me that brought up the 2,700/200 thing on the 338-06 thread... here's what I actually said:



Of course I was talking in broad terms... "close" to 2,700 for me would be 2,670 +/-. Others are attached certain speeds so will press on through to achieve them. I'm not one of those. But I have loaded 200's in every 30-06 I've ever owned and it's always surprised me how accurate they generally are. I can't believe I've never bothered to hunt with them. Sheesh.

But I'm perfectly comfortable pouring on a little extra of the slow, single based powder like John mentioned to achieve a velocity just over 2,650... the same 23" rifle ran a 180 just over 2,800, and I see no reason it can't run there.

But I think John just made the case for the 200 grainer's speed far better than I can, so I'll leave it at that.

JB, I'm having trouble seeing the 1/4 rule out of your calculations there. Maybe it's too early and I'm wrong but bringing 58k up to 64k is about 10% increase in pressure and should be up for a 2.5% increase in velocity rather than the 5% you mentioned. No?

Oh, geez..it is too early for that level of math...I can't even count to 21 with my pants on...

I'm not John, but I'll be interested to hear his response. I believe, however, as with all general rules there are exceptions, and the slow, single based H4831, in this particular instance, might be one of those.

1/4 rule works with case capacity and powder weight never with pressure.
The pressure increase exponentialy while the velocity increase only on a semi logarithmic base.
At a certain point of pressure the increase of velocity is almost nil and your rifle become a shell sending pieces of steel everiwhere...

Now that took me a minute to get... jeez!

2.5% will take 2634 to 2700.
edit - wait, my bad! 1/4 rule is for case volume. Time for a nother coffee.

Then what was your original question getting at?

Now I get it!

I started using the 200 grain Nosler Partition because of the good things Phil Shoemaker and Mule Deer reported about it. It has turned into a very versatile load for the things I normally use a 30/06 for.
In the fall when I go to the Little Belts to a hang around with hunting buddies, anything from coyotes to elk and bear can be on the menu, and I have been known to go to Alaska on a whim a couple of times, and that makes a good rifle/load combo to take along.
So far, the only thing I have killed with that load is three antelope, but one was 426 yards and hitting it, even with a lowly 4X scope wasn't a problem.
I am in between 30/06s right now, but when I come into another one, the 200 Grain Nosler Partition will be a load I will use. And if it's going 2625 instead of 2700, I couldn't care less. Also, in the last 30/06 I had, a Tikka, the recoil of the 200 grain loads didn't seem to hurt as much as some of the lighter bullets.

Fred

JB,
That's not what I've been told in the past. A family friend owned a tool and die company in the 60's and 70's, and Remington was his biggest customer. He was a rifle looney, and had the opportunity to go into the Remington ballistics labs--even got to run some of his own pet 7mmRM loads through the pressure barrels.

He showed me my first plots of pressure curves--some of them were from the 60's and hand plotted! He explained to me the subject of pressure spikes/variation (just like you, he made a distinction describing pressure variation between shots) He used the example of differences in max pressure of the 30-06 vs 280 vs 25-06 vs 270. The 30-06 and 280 had higher variation than the 270 and 25-06 according to him., hence the difference in max rated pressures.

This info came from the late 60's through the 70's, has more recent pressure testing revealed new info? Improved powder maybe?

Casey

UncleJesse,

The 1/4 rule has to do with powder capacity in cartridges of the same caliber: Potential velocity changes at 1/4 the rate of any change in powder capacity. But we're talking about the .30-06, so there's no change in powder capacity.

Homer Powley came up with the rule I just mentioned: With single-base powders, velocity increases at half the rate of pressure. So there is no 1/4 involved here.

Another interesting thing abouyt single-based powders is that velocity increases at the same rate as the powder charge. For instance, if we increase the powder charge 2% (about a grain of powder in the old .30-06 load of 50 grains of IMR4895 with a 150-grain bullet) then muzzle velocity increases 2% as well.

This ruel doesn't always hold at the fringes of any powder's usually pressure-range, but if we're working in the "normal" range of pressures it's remarkably accurate.

Hodgdon's data shows two different 200-grain bullets. The max load for the 200 AccuBond is 59.0 H4831 at 2586 fps and 49,400 CUP. Max for the 200 Speer is 57.5 H4831 for 2577 fps at 49,400 CUP.

If we increase the pressure to 51,500 CUP (the max listed by Hodgdon for any .270 loads) the increase would be about 4.35%. Divide that in two and we get an increase in velocity of 2.17%, for around 2640 fps.

Since velocity increases at the same rate as the powder charge, this means an increase to 60.8 grains with the AccuBond and 58.75 grains with the Speer--and even then we're still probably going to be under the maximum SAAMI psi pressure for the .270. It's too bad the Hodgdon data isn't in psi, rather than CUP, since psi data tends to be a little more accurate.

My Hodgdon No.26 gives an unknown 200 grainer 2,690 with H4831 from a 26" bbl. for 49,000 CUP.

I assume the 30-06, in a strong, modern action can run 53,000 CUP?

Casey,

That long ago, the Remington pressures were probably being shot on copper-crusher equipment. It can be accurate enough, if used correctly, but sure doesn't provide the same sort of data as piezo equipment.

All of the ballistics lab folks I've talked to say the .30-06 is really predictable, and that the reason for the lower pressure standard is older rifles, especially low-number Springfields and 1895 Winchesters.

I've also never heard anything about the .280 being more squirrely than the .270, and there's no reason it should be. The 60,000 psi standard for the .280 was because Remington originally developed it for their pump and semi-auto rifles, and they wanted to make sure it didn't cause any problems. The .280 AI's SAAMI standard is 65,000 psi.

Yes, I should've mentioned the copper crusher plug pressure barrels--I realize the peizo barrels are more accurate and measure in psi.

But if what you're saying is true, LOOKOUT--my 30-06AI is about to become a 300 Wthby Lite!........

Now, what's to say the 270 can't fudge a few thousand psi over 65k psi?

Casey

Oh no, its too early for popcorn.

But it's not too early for diet dew and OJ along with some peppered jerky...

Dober

Thanks M D for putting this in print ONE MORE TIME.

This is such OLD NEWS, I don't see why it hasn't become common knowledge. Maybe reloaders don't read. Maybe some can't understand.

I WISH reloading manuals would make TWO lists; one for OLD guns and one for newer manuf. and list some date to distinguish between them.

Thanks Again

Casey,

Laughin'!

But a few years ago I decided to test the old handloading pressure signs, including case-head expansion, and worked up loads for three rifles. One was a .270, and I worked up to 58.5 grains of Reloder 19 with a 130-grain bullet (can't remember exactly which bullet now), no problem. Took them to the Western Powders lab and they averaged 68,000+ psi.

Well heck, 68K is a fire form load for some on the Fire...

Dober

I have some 215 Bergers to give a go in the 06 and WSM as well. May find a good yote load...grin

Dober

And what was the velocity on that load?

Assuming a "new" unknown powder workup on a 270, what is your "target" chrono velocity that correlates to "max pressure"?

MM

Yowsers.....

Not to hijack Dober, but here's a question; one of the most popular handloads in post-war reloading-dom is the 270W with 58gr of H4831 under a 150gr bullet. I've chrono'ed at least a thousand rounds over the past 30 years, ran 50-60 rounds through an Oheler Ballistics Lab and stayed under pressure for those rifles.

Yet, today's (peizo tested?) load manuals are now limiting H4831 to the 56gr range. I'm sticking with 58gr of H4831 for my loads--am I gonna blow my head off?

Casey

Kinda why I asked JB what his parametr for a 270 are..........I am very interested to see where he may have been in the past vs now.

Casey, I am where you are with it; my velocities for the 130's are typically around 3075-3100 & with the 150's around 2950, both with Partitions from a 22" barrel.

Sorry to HJ Dober's thread.

MM

I'm going to try that load, likely with the 200 NAB though.

Hmmmm. I've got a .30-06, 200 gr Nosler Partitions, H4831sc all on hand....

Of course there's also a .300 WSM in the safe, so perhaps no reason to push my ol '06 so hard.

If there's one thing that legions of handloaders have shown it's that going over SAAMI max by a "little" ain't no thang.

If you have to go over SAAMI to get what you want.....

You own the wrong caliber....

Jayco

The 300 WSM really shines with 200's... 2,850 is just right. Think RL17.

Agree - the WSM has been shooting real well with 200 gr Noslers & 210 gr Bergers over H4350, right about 2815 fps or so.

Didn't think much of the .300 WSM when it was introduced, but made a screamin' deal on a Model 70 a few years ago and dang, it's turned out to be quite a rifle.

Brad, we've both killed with the 338 win mag. I used 250 NP's in it to kill elk.

As it looks or appears now, an 06 that shoots a 200 NP at 2,700 or 2,750 would in my mind would out penetrate and out fly a 338 win mag shooting a 250 NP. Something to be said or thought about there.

(I've also killed 6 elk using the 200 NP out of a 300 win mag. Complete penetration though shoulders with it at distances between 400 and 650 yards. One bullet killing two elk at 600+. So I know the bullet works.)

Put the 200/2,750 NP in a 6 lb package and my ballistic mind goes bonkers with elk hunting possibilities.

As PS said:

I was using the 220 Partitions as I did a test using damp magazines and the 220 Partitions outpenetrated everything else by quite a bit. Next in line were the 200 Swifts and 180 TSX ( which gave identical penetration), followed by the 240 Woodleighs PP and finally the 220 Woodleigh RN.

The 220 Partitions equalled 300 gr Partitions from a 375 H&H and beat 400 gr DGX Hornady softs from a 416.

Jayco

I am not at all surprised by this.

I'm not either but Elk are not coastal Brown Bear and don't need the penetration and lack of speed/trajectory the lighter weights give for Elk hunting.

To each his own and the two sides to every story.

Jayco

That's what I'm thinking too!

Of course, shooting my 6 1/2 lb 06AI with 200gr Pt's at almost 2800fps already makes my mind go bonkers for a few seconds before my vision clears......


Casey

Hecks ya! How does that thing feed and what barrel length?

Since this is the "Ask The Gunwriters Forum" lets see what they have to say,in fun....What they have wrote about the 30-06 and bullets heavier than 180 grains....

John Barsness
Today I don't think there's a real need for anything bigger than a 180-grain bullet in the .30-06

Craig Boddington
I also don't have much use for bullets above 180 grains. Additional bullet weight--200 or 220 grains--offers a hedge against bullet blowup as well as increasing penetrating potential. There are times and places, such as using the .30-06 on brown bear or when Hemingway used his Griffin & Howe Springfield on lion, rhino and Cape buffalo. I don't use the .30-06 for such game, so for me a good 180-grain bullet is all I need.

Jayco

Sure, but I'm looking at a rifle/bullet combo for chasing the heard through the thick and occasional clear cut. Want a bullet that goes up a bulls six straight and true.

Without trying to start a fight, just HOW do you get 2,700 out of 200gr bullet in an 06 anyway. Been shooting one for 40 years, and believe that 2,500 - 2,550 about tops, especially with the 22" barrels so many wear.

MD, I'm not one that necessarily thinks that the books are the absolute end all to maximum loads. As an example you and I use pretty much the same loads for 9,3x62 which are above the low pressure loads listed but still under modern rifle pressure limits.

I think what you list here sounds pretty reasonable:





Problem is that your charges listed are just the starting point for some......




And not to mince words, was it here or on AA where someone trying to duplicate Seafire's Blue-Dot loads blew up a rifle?

Where do you set your upper limits?

I'd imagine you could probably feed a Remington model 700 70-75,000psi loads almost indefinately without a Kaboom but I don't think it's really all that smart to try and find out.

There's so many other rounds that can shoot 30 caliber 200gr bullets to 2800fps including lightweight rifles I just can't see the sense of trying to do it with a 30-06.

I don't see too much sense in UNDERloading a round either. I'm also not so sure there's that great a difference in the killing power of one starting at 2600fps vs 2700fps.

I don't mind pushing the envelope a little but ya gotta stop somewhere!..........................dj

I hope you feel better now. <g>

Shoot what you will, be not worried so much what others do.

It feeds very well through the M700 action. Like most American L/A receivers, the M700 rails are pretty much married to the 06 cases to begin with. Even a M700 S/A in 243 or 308 are almost, but not quite as good as a 06 case through a L/A. So I'd say the 06AI feels about the same as a 308 based cartridge through a M700 S/A.

Long time ago I built a 284W on a S/A M700--it never jammed, but it was sort've like shifting a fence post in a bucket of gravel.......

It's a 22 inch bbl, I run 200gr Pt's at just shy of 2800fps. It has been shot on a M43 Oheler Ballistics Lab and averaged 60kpsi--so it is at the (former ) pressure limit.......

M700 S/A.

Long time ago I built a 284W on a S/A M700--it never jammed, but it was sort've like shifting a fence post in a bucket of gravel.......

[/quote]


This hopefully won't derail the thread two far but that's been my experience as well..

Dober

Geez, no kidding, it's like he's spastic that anybody here is going to use the 200 instead of the 180. I'm sure he can find a gun writer that says the 130 out of the 270 is plenty for elk and the 150 is not needed. I thought this thread was about getting a 200 to 2,700.

It's obvious you haven't bothered to read this thread.

Very Kool set up. How many grains? Have you tried 7828 in it? Or a slightly more slower powder?

FWIW, a compressed load of H4831sc also works pretty good.
2900fps(24") was fairly easy to do but that was probably about max.

R17 and 200's acted wonky in my 2 rifles, H4831sc did the trick.

Reloading gack.....

Mark, going from the Hodgdon web site and their loads.

Here is what we see using 7828.

200 GR. NOS AB IMR 7828 .308" 3.300" 53.0 2323 45,000 PSI 58.0C* 2559 58,100 PSI

Broken down it shows us;
2,300 psi per grain of powder
47 fps per grain of powder

Adding 3 grains (for a total of 61 grains) at 6,900 psi and 141 fps you have
64,900 psi and you have exactly 2,700 fps mv.

(61 grains of 7828 SCC easily fits in a 06 case)

Knowing that 7828 is a slower powder than H4831
I would now be more cautious in using Seafire's load of 63.5/H4831 grains of powder.
But also taking into account my 30-06 COAL is longer than Hodgdons and I believe the AB has a longer shank than the Partition.

7828 should give you a nice "BOOM" when you shoot it and not a "CRACK".

As Lyndon Johnson used to say, let me make a few things perfectly clear:

1) Around (not exactly) 2700 fps with a 200-grain Nosler Partition is one of the greatest combinations in hunting ballistics. It plain works, shooting flat enough, penetrating deeply and killing well, without shredding a bunch of good eating meat.

2) Yeah, I once did say no bullet over 180 grains is needed in the .30-06. That was after various super-premium bullets appeared. Back in the 1970's and 80's when I started using the 200-grain Partition, it was the best all-around bullet for game from pronghorn to elk--and I used it on everything in Montana in that weight range except for the tags I couldn't draw: pronghorns, whitetails, mule deer, black bear and elk.
It worked fine.

3) Apparently Logcutter will always be a dipschit.

And that is an absolute.

Thanks JB

Spot on..

In my experience, velocity does not always track in a linear fashion with powder charge and I don't think pressure does either.

I agree with you, but I also think it gives us a good estimate to look at when compared to our own handloads when working up a load.

I didn't say that velocity always tracks directly with velocity. I said it does with single-based powders in their typical pressure range--and unless you're using Hodgdon Extreme powders, different temperatures cause variations. Even with Extreme powders, you're likely to see not-in-line increases above 70 degrees F.

But if you load a .30-06 with, say, 57 grains of IMR4350 and a 150-grain bullet, and the load chronographs an average of 2850 fps, if you fire loads with 58 and 59 grains on the same day, with the same rifle, you will get just about 2900 fps with the 58-grain load. (58/57 = 1.017, and 1.017 x 2850 = 2900). With 59 grains you'll get 2950 fps. (59/57 = 1.035, and 1.035 x 2850 = 2900.) Try it sometime. Unless your chronograph isn't all that accurate, it works.

Double-based powders vary some from this formula, according to how much nitroglycerine is added to the powder, but average around 1.5 times as much velocity as the percentage of powder added.

LOL!!! Boy, is he gonna cry long and hard over that one..

Yep...its nice in an ever changing world that some things always remain constant.....

TFF...

I run 58.5gr of IMR4831. I'd MUCH rather use a less temp sensitive powder, but I could never get good enough accuracy out of H4831 to suit me--which boggles my mind 'cause H4831 works for me in every other cartridge that can use slow burning powder. IMR 7828 wouldn't get me any more velocity than a regular 06.

I am thinking about fireforming new cases and trying H4831 again or trying some of the Ramshot powders.


Casey

I can say from experience this is right. I learned this from MD and experimented accordingly using Homer Powleys equations programed in Excel. It works very well with all single based powders, regardless of mfr.

SU's linear method also works. My playing around indicates ~ 2000 psi (40-50 ft/sec) per grain of powder added. Which leaves a cartidge like the 30-06 which has a 60k psi SAAMI, adding 2 grains adds ~ 4000 psi and 80-100 ft/sec and 64k psi. With most of the 55-58k psi loads shown in many manuals, 3 grains can be added to get to 62-64k psi. Same works for the 7 RM and 280 which all have simialr SAAMI's.

At the end of the day, I think 2700 is doable in a 24" 06 at pressures less than 65k psi - just like the 270, 25-06, about all the magnums. If my gun liked loads in the high 2600's with 200 grainers, I'd do it............

BTW: While we're gacking, run a 30-06 with an Accubond against a 300 magnum at 2900 with a lower BC (AFrame, Grand slam, etc). The difference at 3-4-500 yards ain't alot. And without the magnum recoil.

Well excuse me for quoting the 24hourcampfire May 2009 Newsletter right here on the fire with the header saying and I quote again:

Please take a moment to FORWARD JOHN BARSNESS'S COLUMN to a shooting or hunting buddy!

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

If I offended or hurt your little feelings for quoting a 24hourcampfire newsletter from May 2009,I publicly apologize to you.

Jayco

I will have to try it.

Key words in your paragraph above are "in their typical pressure range." When I loaded hotter, I can remember several times where adding a grain resulted in a big jump in velocity, which I always took as a sign of excessive pressure. I don't remember if this ocurred with double- or single-based powder or both.

It can occur with both because higher pressure can change the burn characteristics of a powder. Double based are more sensitive this.

That why typical pressure range is specified.

As a fun factoid, due to it's sheer awesomeness, the .358 can push a 200 as fast as a 30-06.

Oh no a battle of gack.

Of course it'd have the BC of a Jelly Bean...

Dober

Well there is that <g>!

by DJ Paintless
And not to mince words, was it here or on AA where someone trying to duplicate Seafire's Blue-Dot loads blew up a rifle?

just like we use to sing when marching in basic training:
"here we go again, same old chit again..."

The gentleman who did so, admitted privately and then publicly that he had accidentally double charged, if not Triple charged his 257 Weatherby, by getting distracted Multiple times by his wife, poking their heads in the garage and asking " oh honey can you help me, it will only take a minute"....message was "don't get distracted at the reload bench".. secondly loading light powder charges in a case is nothing that handloaders of pistol cartridges don't do every day...

that was admitted to be operator error.. and the recommendations were per his request in private PMs, he was told about working up, and he was an accomplished reloader with years of experience...

so if you want to post the incident, that's fine, and I have no problem.. but get your facts straight before you do so...
something too many folks on here don't need to see the need for...

have been off of this thread for a couple of days and was wading thru it...

I am surprised some of the guys who I follow their posts, are not into annealing...

Life runs together here as we get older..however I have not been annealing that long it seems...4 or 5 years maybe...

but it surprises me how many shooters on here DON'T do it.. my experience is all self taught with input from reading folks on the campfire here... from Mr Barsness right on down to new folks..

someone gave me an older 7 or 8 gallon propane tank from a sold RV, that I went down and filled...I had a spare attachment that someone left at a Scout Camp that was never claimed...and then went down to Grover's here and picked up a plumbers torch for about $6 or $8.... and a spare milk crate to put the tank in so it wouldn't fall over.. and finally a couple of small galvinized metal bucks that I picked up at Walmart in the Craft dept for a $1.00 a piece...

so I don't have a big cash investment involved...

then I just couldn't see what the 'drop in water' cooling did for me, that plain old air drying didn't...if I needed to cool them quick, I could just put the bucket in the frig or freezer located 2 steps away in the garage where I do that stuff..

I played with annealing every other time to as far out as every 8 times...Like Brad, I settled on every 4th time..

my whole goal here was to see how far one could stretch out brass life, if suddenly it wasn't available to us, courtesy of radicals in the government who want to erase firearms and hunting from our country...

I neck size as much as possible...also make sure the brass will chamber in the rifle, so I don't get out in the field where something won't chamber.. I walk outside of the garage and do so, instead of accidentally putting a hole in the wall like a neighbor did...

My regimen is:
1. deprime with a universal deprimer.
2.use a bore brush and brush out the throat
3. using a pair of needled nose pliers, hold the brass into the flame for X amount of seconds...5 seconds for 223, 6 to 8 seconds for 22.250 and 308 based cartridges..10 seconds for 30.06 based cartridges, 12 second for the 7, 300 and 338 Mags..
4. usually do 10 at a time, almost all my brass is segregated into lots of 10, and put in a zip lock bag, with a 3 x 5 card, that will list the entire history of the brass...
5. let air cool in bucket...
6. clean neck and lube with bore brush
7. resize, either with neck sizer or full sizer if needed..
prefer to bump shoulder back with a body die nowadays...

I've noticed if one can live with brass being loaded to the old specs of older Mausers, right around 40 to 45,000 CUP pressure, neck sizing, dedicated to same fire arm, bumping shoulder back as needed with a body die, one could get a fairly long life out of a piece of brass...

the less you overwork it, the longer it will last, and keep it clean, keep the necks cleaned out...

Now I'll put on my flame retardant suit, because here's the part that the naythesayers have been waiting for....because this isn't published in any book to my knowledge...

I saw going thru Lapua's web site, on their brass where they claimed that they have reloaded components 300 times, yes, you read that number right....

I know Lapua is the Cadillac Standard in brass, but that planted the old 'what if' in my mind, so I had to experiment to see what good old American stuff could do...

so I decided to do testing of two calibers.. both in 22 caliber.. the 223, and the 22.250.. I had a good stash of 22 cal 55 grain FMJ setting around and going nowhere...

so with 10 pieces of brass for each test group, off we went...

this involved loading up, going 2 miles around the corner to forest service land, and shooting them...a couple of trees were picked as back stops... and the number of times they were shot with 55 grain FMJs actually ended up cutting them down over time.. so 3 threes sacrificed their lives for this test...

the 22.250 brass, I tested was Winchester.. with this regimen and a charge of 20 grains of SR 4759.. that batch went 40 reloads with no problems experienced at all... no casualties, etc...I quit at 40, as I was going to spend the rest of the time on the 223...and then maybe come back and see if I could push the 22.250 brass any further... in the end, I didn't see the need to.. results from the 223, gave me more than enough info to see one could stretch the brass life if desired, way beyond what any of us would consider sane or normal...

now the 223. shot out of an ADL...Load was 12.5 grains of Blue Dot...small pistol primer and smile rifle primers used intermittently... brass was Remington, that was picked up at the range off the ground..tumbled and cleaned...so no cost to me..
Results:
they required having the shoulder bumped back every 7 to 8 reloads...

they were annealed every 4th reload..

necks were cleaned out each time with a bore brush, which helps eliminate neck splits by being clean....

neck sized each time

I can draw this out, or just come to the final results..

it took 2 months to do all this...load, drive 2.5 miles from the house, shoot and come back home...reload etc..

ended up putting a thousand rounds down the barrel of the ADL..

burned up a hair less than 2 lbs of Blue Dot...

put 500 plus miles on my car, driving back and forth 'around the corner'...

went thru $30 worth of primers...

lost 3 pieces of brass at the reload bench, due to operator error...

but what was left was 7 pieces of the raunchiest looking brass from Remington.. probably due to over annealing for too long.. like 12 seconds each..

but those 7 pieces of brass left, had shot 100 bullets each for the test...the replacements ( nickel so they'd stand out) had shot less...

but annealing, neck sizing , body dies, a little conservative on the reloading scale, taught me a lot...

about loading techniques, annealing and just stretching out brass life, if that is all I could get..

7 left standing, Remington 223 brass that was picked up off the ground at the range.. shot in a bolt action ADL stood up to 100 reloads!..

no split necks, no case head separations, no loose primer pockets..

and the three casualties, were each, missing the spindle on the decapping die, and instead of punching out the primer, plowing a big valley right down the side of the brass....

so if ya want to, or have to stretch out brass life... learning how to not work it much, you can stretch the life of it out pretty darn far...

hence why I never went back and tested the 22.250 stuff any further.. not considering it part of the test, that 'test' batch went back into varmint service, and that season, shot another 20 rounds of 30 grains of RL 7 behind a Speer 52 grain HP.. so they hit 60 reloads...

still have them in a ziplock bag, somewhere out in the garage..

of course in my garage, you could park the Queen Mary out there and it would take a week to find it..

Speaking of Lapua Brass, most of the folks that dote on it (that I've read after) say they get around 15+ loads out of it... that's pretty darn good.

I've only recently used Lapua Brass... the stuff is amazing and I've come to believe it's worth what it costs... for certain rifles anyway.

yeah Brad, someone sent me like 30 pieces of 308 brass that they said they had reloaded some 30 times or so.. but weren't sure..

but yeah, talk about the Cadillac of brass...

I can't verify how many times they were reloaded by the campfire member that gave them to me...but I've reloaded them 20 times so far playing with my 7/08 barrel I put on the Savage action I picked up from another campfire member in the classifieds..

but my loads in that, have been weiner loads..

100, 110, 115, 120 and 130 grain loads over charges like 30 grains of RL 7 or IMR 4198...so it isn't stretching the brass much at all...

If a guy was going to get a new rifle or barrel and handloaded, I'd say a 100 rounds of Lapua brass, and he could wear out the barrel by the time the brass got around to be worn out, unless he redlined the hell out of it..

You might be right... sure wish they still made 270 Win brass.

Well they sorta do, if you don't look at the head stamp too closely....

I don't think they make 7/08 brass either.. but in my case, they make 308 brass that necks down to 7/08...

but then again, I do stupid stuff like that..

Using Blue-Dot in a belted magnum round ended up with a Blown-Up rifle, simple as that.

If he had been using the powders normally used in 257 Weatherby a double charge would not have been a possibility. I beleive that there are good reasons to establish firm safety procedures in reloading to prevent such actions.

One is using powders that have sufficient loading density to prevent the possibility of an double charge that could destroy a firearm and cause potential injury.

Two is not loading 5 grains over listed maximums.

You obviously beleive differently but nobody has blown up a rifle using my procedures..............................dj

and that was a choice of the gentleman who was reloading HIS rifle....

he asked for an opinion of mine.. I shared it with him, per his request.. along with procedures that I use to make sure that I don't do a double charge...

what I believe is that we all are individually responsible for our own loading procedures and choices...

placing blame on a choice and mistake of one individual, on another when it was beyond his control, is asinine...

safety is always our individual responsibility....casting blame on someone else, is a problem in our society....

the gentleman who had the mistake admitted his own fault... but you as a non involved individual want to pass blame elsewhere, strictly because it conflicts your own ideas and parameters...

so if you have a car accident, do you blame the guy at the store that recommended the tires you bought, or the car dealer who sold you the car? I mean, it is evident you wouldn't consider the car accident YOUR fault...

or should the guy who had the mishap, blame the guy who talked him into a 257W, since it was evident that he should have had a 25/35 instead if he wanted to load to a slower velocity?

and then we have guys like you standing by, non involved, but feel it is your civic duty to complain about the details...

congratulations... we appreciate your availability to point all of this out for the rest of us who you don't consider smart enough to go thru life with the direction of guys like yourself..

"................To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." �Theodore Roosevelt"

How true...........

well we agree on something...

hopefully you are not trying to call me a liberal here...

piss on me, piss on my Family... but don't ever call me a liberal..

nothing is lower.. be it democrat, communist or socialist..

Fuggers should be lined up and shot.... grin....

Might have to try some of that fancypants Lapua brass. Sounds like good stuff.

Any company that doesn't make brass for the 270W.....is suspect....

What do the Scandinavians know anyway?.......

But yeah, my 223 Lupua is pretty nice. I guess I'll keep shooting them until I split the expansion ring (that's always a good indicator it's time to get new brass..... )

Casey

And no one will blow up a rifle using proper procedures when using a small amount of faster burning powder. Since 1976, I've commonly used 10 to 14 grains of Unique in my .30'06, 18 grains IMR-4227 in my .300 Savage, 6 grains of Unique in my .30-30, or 11 grains of Unique in my .358. Never, ever had a problem but, then again I follow a strict discipline. No, light loads do not blow up rifles but, improper loading light loads will.

It is good!
Well, at least in my 9.3X62 and 6.5X55-those are the only two calibers I have any experience with. I wish Lapua would produce their brass in a few more "American" calibers.

You get it grouping yet? I'm having a tough time thinking of anything else besides the 155 Scenar considering the groups I am getting out of my 30-06 Ti. I see how the 200 NP would give you the warm/fuzzy though.

Calvin-have you shot the 155 Hybrid? It really perks in a couple of my 30's. The 155 Scenar shoots well also.

Dober

I haven't shot any of the Hybrids yet. I took a bunch of Scenars on trade, so that's what I'm using. Was thinking about the Hybrids if I get the urge to explore a bit.

Joel, hoping to get it out tomorrow.

btw, didn't know you had a Ti 06. What scope do you have on it?

I have a Ti 30-06 with a M8 6x42, in a McM Edge Mtn Rifle Stock. 'bout as good as it gets.

Indeed.

That do sound awfully nice!

Dober

200 NP loads I tested today, fwiw.........

700 Ti 22" barrel

COAL 3.440
Win brass
Win primers
Two shot test loads. These will give me an initial idea of speed and accuracy.

Chrony 25' out

IMR 7828 SCC
61.0....2,652
62.0....2,684
Promising load, maybe get another .5 grains in the case for a compressed load and still not get to higher pressures. Makes a nice low pressure boom.

IMR 4831
57.0....2,652
flattened primers poor accuracy

N-165
61.5....2,688
Promising

RL-17
56.0....2,697
Promising

And the pressure were?

Jayco

3) Apparently Logcutter will always be a dipschit.

Your RL17 result is very close to mine with moly'd 208s. 55gr/2740 fps/22.5" bbl. I started seeing pressure signs (ejector swipe) at 57.0gr.

1-How do you know the pressure?
2-What pressure tested data is that taken off of?
3-Is that data SAAMI for the 30-06 or is it 270 Comparable?

Call names if you will,answering questions is much harder with facts,not pressure signs being spot on.

Your a follower,not a leader!

Jayco

ES&d

One more thing SU...

George Weber of Hodgdons powder tested Winchester 45-70 brass to 70,000 CUP and it just fell out of the SAAMI spec barrel.

Your data is useless without data to back it up.You may not be getting pressure signs but who does under 70,000?

Wrong message to send to new reloaders.

Jayco

3) Apparently Logcutter will always be a dipschit.

Nice rifle, shidt chambering. Some just have to make the easy things, so hard.

Congratulations?















(just kidding bud, sounds like a cool rifle!)

A quote from the expert on the 30-06 himself

Jayco...

When asked a question,you go to calling names just like someone else I know rather than give data or fact's to back up your opinion.

Are you that good your beyond being questioned on what you post on loads that exceed published data?

Quit calling names and back up what you write with data/pressures etc.....

Are you aware Freedom Arms tested the Marlin '95 and Winchester Big Bore to use the 454 Casull....The Marlin gave up first without pressure signs somewhere around 20 rounds...The action just quit working properly and the Winchester Big Bore(Not the AE) lasted to about 40 rounds with the same results.No pressure signs just an action that quit working....

Back up your mouth and data or maybe not pass it on to the new reloaders that should be taking responsible public data from a responsible source.

Jayco

Back up your claims that you just made about the Marlin and Winchester lever guns

I have had and shot umpteen 30-06's and at that time I did not "own" one...

This is my current 30-06 and I love it.



I will JWP475..Just give me a minute....

Jayco

jayco

You have zero experience with a 30-06.

Who here has ever had the capability to know the exact pressure of their loads?
No one except for less than a handful of gun writers like JB.

I am going by the linear method btw and looking for classic signs using slower than normal powders for the most part which result in lower pressures.

Now do us all a favor and move on and let the men talk here without your infantile input.

I have a 35-06 that will heave a 225 gr Nosler Partition at 2681 fps with 56 grs of IMR 4320. This is from a 22 inch barrel by the way.
whelennut

JWP475

There is more if you want it.....This was from Jim Taylor and friends arguing the strength of leverguns on the market. on Paco Kelly's leverguns.com.

Just remember that pressure is always and only relative to the resistance of the system in place to contain it... If the pressure does not exceed strength of the containment apparatus, all is well. The Freedom Arms .454 revolver has a built-in 100%+ safety factor - that is, it will contain pressures in excess of 100% overload. That said - DON'T try to find out how much or how high that is... We did succeed in breaking a .454 at F.A., but only after much tedious loading and firing of ammunition no one could conceivably load by accident or mistake. The gun never did "blow up," it just finally "broke..."

In my own .454 levergun tests, back in the late '80s, we did manage to ruin a few Winchester '94s, and one Marlin 336. The Marlin failed after the fewest rounds of factory-equivalent ammo, digesting only a handful of rounds (somewhere short of 20, if memory serves...) before the action would no longer lock up safely or securely.

Next to fall was a brand-new Winchester '94 Big-Bore AE, which stretched and flowed like taffy, as the bolt tried to climb up the locking lug and out of the top of the receiver, peening the lug recesses in the receiver terribly, and noticeably stretching the right side wall of the receiver. In their infinite wisdom, Winchester (USRAC) beefed up the receiver in the wrong place, while cutting ALL the strength out of the right receiver wall, to allow for their ill-conceived "angle ejection" modification. The '94 that performed best in my testing was a well-used carbine, made in the 1920s. It was still tight and crisp when we screwed the .454 barrel into it, but even it became dangerous and unserviceable in fewer than 50 rounds.

The whole point of the testing was to prove to various and sundry doubters that the 1894 Winchester was NOT a suitable platform for the powerful .454 Casull round - and WHY. The guns used (and used up...) in the tests were donated to the cause by those very Doubting Thomases...! It doesn't get much better than that.

BTW, the same Sharon barrel was used in all the tests, and it emerged unscathed. It was finally rethreaded and rechambered to .45 Colt and installed in a Browning '92, where it still resides -- a 24", octagon beauty.

The 1894 and 1895 Winchesters are NOT particularly strong actions, having llooooooonnnnngg receiver walls and angled, rear locking bolts. In short, physics and geometry are against them from the outset. As mentioned above, the '94 AE suffers the further indignity of having the only strengthening metal available to it REMOVED to make way for the abominable ejection system.

The '86/M-71 and '92 Winchesters are by far the strongest of the "traditional" lever actions, with the nod going to the '86/71, with its square-to-bore vertical lockup, which situates the lugs about 2/3 the distance back from the breech-face as compared to a '94 or '95. The '86's receiver walls are robust and not chopped up or hollowed out as are those on the '94, in particular.

The new Browning/Winchester 1886 and Model 71 are virtually identical offerings, made of good, through-hardened steel, and will serve as the basis for some VERY powerful loading.

Be careful, and don't try this at home...

Jayco

Cut and paste experience sums up jayco.

Geez..It was a friend of mine that post on my forum and is a member.....

Do you need the link?I don't lie....It's yours if you ask.

Jayco

Your not going to ask are you, you little whuss.....You know I can back it up so you call names instead of backing up your post....

This is the only one I will let you in on after thinking about it..Anyone who is interested in firearms and building the rifle to except pressures,especially leverguns::::::::

Should read this one on my forum and pay attention to what BuckElliott has to say that did the testing for Freedom Arms on the 454 Casull in a levergun!!!!!!!!!

http://www.levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=10676&p=103980#p103980

Jayco

This is an interesting thread and topic with plenty of good info if their wasn't a lot of butt hurt, ego repair going on.
In light of my remark, I will go on and state for the record and the risk of being lambasted, that a few weeks ago I took my KS Mountain rifle out with an older box of Hornady light magnum 180 gr. factory loads and my trusty chronograph and was getting consistent 2940fps to 2960fps velocities.... a smokin' load by most standards. Interestingly enough, both rifle, chrony and I came home in one piece. No primers fell out of their pockets, no sticky bolt lift or barrel bulging and nary a mark on the brass cases, imagine my surprise! Now I realize that the propellant is not an off the shelf flavor but still...I think the argument has been pretty well made that 2700fss with a 200NPT is not only doable but can be done safely in some ,not all rifles if proper handloading precautions are exercised and you work up loads in your rifle BTW, its a bughole shooter.
YMMV,
BD

You marry a hydra, you take your chances. Marry two of them and you've pretty much had it.

Today I loaded some 200 gr partitions over 59 gr of H4831SC for my spring bear hunt. I did not chrono them, but they shot pretty well. My 5-shot 100 yard groups were a little over an inch, 3 shot groups of about 3/4". This was from 2 different rifles- a M700 classic, and a New Haven M70 classic stainless. I was thinking of also trying RL-17, but I may have already found my load.
I like the idea of the 200 gr partition for situations where the game could be large, but the ranges short.

Tag

As always on here, once the veracity of any claim is questioned, it only takes a page or two for the keyboard warrior name calling to start.

If you won't say it face to face, better not to say it.

Do any of you really think any big game animal would shrug off a hit from a 200 gr .308 bullet at 2500 fps but fall over dead were it going at 2700 ?

Lots of dead critters killed by 30-40 Krags with 220s @1800 fps are laughing over this dust up.

What happened to upthehole Larry?

Tag

Don't you mean, as always since you joined earlier last month? Or, Larry, did you mean since you joined years ago and have been banned numerous times since? You need to pull your head out from "up the hole" and go away for good.

200 Nosler Partition - 20 3/8" barrel:

54 gn R16 - Win cases - Win 120 primers - 2555 fps
56 gn StaBall 6.5 - Win cases - 215 primers - 2624 fps
60 gn R26 - Win cases - 215 primers - 2615 fps
61 gn N560 - Win cases - 210 primers - 2603 fps

For those who might want some alternate powders.

Cheers,
Walt

Impressive, from the 20" barrel! Thanks for posting that. I was happy with 2600 via H4350 from a 24" barrel. BTW, that load shot really well. Modest recoil & terrific accuracy. Flatter shooting than I anticipated too. Did a fine job on wolf & grizzly.

Of course, it's kinda crazy that this thread got dredged up from 10 years ago.

Regards, Guy

There's a reason for everything. I recently started load development with 200gr bullets in my 30-06. This thread, while 10 years old, contains valuable data in my quest for accuracy and speed. It took much work on my part to find this thread with the few clues another member could provide so I tagged it for future reference.

Good old thread

More proof of life after death. Pretty interesting actually. Started 1/9/12 and died 2/17/12 halfway down page 30. Reincarnated on 11/5/17 and active up to today's date.

On a more serious note I've often thought about seeing just what the 30-06 could do with bullets heavier than 180 gr. and this gives me some idea of what the potential is. One powder not mention is WMR. Winchester's data leaves a great deal to be desired. They give the same data for 200 and 220 gr. bullets and its velocity is low as is the pressure data. Might give that one a try as well as some of the good performers mentioned in the thread.
PJ

Had a canister of it at one time. Ended up dumping it out as Winchester wasn't too happy with this stuff.

If only W-785 was still around . . . sigh . . .

I used R-22 to get to 2650 fps with 200 Pts, in a 24" 700.

Then opted for H4831, both because it was more accurate and consistent, and because I hunt elk often in sub-zero temps. It got me exactly 2599fps, and groups were sub MOA.

On a whim, I decided to try R-16 while trying to get some other 200 grain bullets to shoot. It performed so well that I tried it with Partitions. Easily got over 2700 fps, but the accuracy for me was at 2680 fps. 53.5 grains, CCI 200, Winchester brass. I've shot a bunch of these now, but not at any animals. Maybe this year.

I still use my load with the 200 grain Partitions. Great confidence carrying this rifle and load.

Saw a link to this old thread on another thread...and have been reading thru the entire thing, reliving the past, for the last 2 hours or so...

When I need it, I still load my 06s with the heavier bullets, 200 and 220 grainers... and am using loads I developed years ago, even before this thread. Still using 4831SC, all with 60 grains or more, regular large rifle primers.

But re reading the entire thread, here at the end, seeing the use of RL 16 that caught my attention with its results, so I need to try and test that out.. which is something to get me thru another winter season in Rainy Oregon. I've now hit the age, each hunting season I wonder if its going to be my last. My health is just fine, but when you hit your 70s, that can change in 6 months, down the road.

And I've got an 8 pound keg of RL 16, that I haven't used for anything yet... and I've had it a couple of years. bought it when it was introduced and was on sale at Sportsman's Warehouse.

Nice when things come full circle, and I realize that I am beginning to approach my 19th anniversary on being here on the campfire.

At what point does a stoutly constructed 180 gr./2800 fps fail... but a 200 gr./2700 fps succeeds?

Reach for the 9.3x62mm.




GR

You'll know when it happens. Scary stuff. You'll probably never stop shiitting your pants afterward. Maybe that's not new for you.

It's probably more of a looney thing than a functional thing. I've shot more 200 gr bullets at animals than 180's from 30-06. They all died just the same, with holes through vitals. Have caught more 200's than 180's as well. Just the luck of the draw.

At no point do I think a 200gr bullet killed something that a 180 gr wouldn't. Although, there was an unintentionally ass-shot elk with a 200 gr Sierra started at 2630 fps that centered the right ham from about 65 yards, made it up through the body, and was resting in the meat of the ribs adjacent to the left shoulder. It didn't go far. Perhaps a 180 wouldn't have done so well, but who knows? The recovered bullet mushroomed perfectly, and weighed exactly 150 grains.

That's my take.

The 200 grain will maintain more velocity at long range with less wind drift

A .308 200 gr Nosler partition @ 2700 fps is a very good place to be for game heavier than deer

Given a choice a smart man would take a 6.5mm CM / 140gr VLD @ 2750.

Better killin in close and more reach.

Just Sayin.

Just Sayin or whatever, I really think you are mistaken. Which is kind-speak for "out of your mind." (as long as we are talking about game larger than deer, which is what the post to which you responded was about. For deer-sized game you have a point.)
With the 200 PT having a Litz-measured G1 BC of .501, you'd have to get fairly far out before you found more than two inches of trajectory or drift advantage for the .264" 140 VLD at 2750'. And the 200 PT will hit with much, much, more energy at any sane range. and the nose of that 200 PT will always fragment very destructively and the back end of it will always plow on through.

Mi Dos Centavos,
Rex

Well then post some heavier than deer game and such results.

I'll start here, just for fun.

550yds.

50 yards. 200 Partition. Take your frangible bullet pop-gun to this party.

The Prostitution rests, your honor. ;o)
Rex

Done that.



Want another swing there batter?

And in the bottom of the 16th it's the bears over the cubs.

Looks like those 6.5 Creedmoors in the cartridge sleeve on your buttstock grew a belt, John.
Stretched out a mite too, as did the action on your rifle. What was it you were talking about again?

;o)
Rex

Beat me to it.
FTR If I need more than 150,165,or 180gr. performance out of my 06'. I reach for one of my 300's or my 325WSM. maybe I'm thinking to logically. IDK [color:#CC0000][/color]

Done that? Do long range hunters have a distorted view of size? Here is a spot and stalk black bear shot with a 200gr partition that might outweigh that grizzly. Not to mention the stretch on cartridge selection to boot.

John,
I have used a 6.5 VLD 140 gr on deer and antelope and it worked really well. I have not tried it on anything larger.
I don't hunt elk much these days, but when I did, me and my partners used 300 mags, I used 180 NP and elk would stop them, others used 200 NP and got full penetration and decisive kills every time.
I have shot a couple deer with the 200NP 30-06 combo and it was decisive with little meat loss, I like that.
Where I live and hunt now is thick forest, long shots are rare... and we have grizzly bears. So lately I have leaned towards a 9.3x62 with 286 gr. NP, 338 mag with 210gr NP
and even built a 375 H&H I intend to carry with 250 gr GMX. A 30-06 with a 200 NP would do very well also, it's just to vanilla for me...
I hunt alone most days and these combos bring more piece of mind than a 6.5 Creed with 140 vld's. Of course we are all free to make our own choices and hunting is not an ego game for me. It's me and nature with no observers, no fans, no cheerleaders and I am not selling anything. Just me enjoying nature.
I will continue to use VLD type loads in smaller calibers for deer and antelope in open country though.

Always fun to discuss guns stuff.

I have shot and seen shot quite a few elk with the 6.5mm 140gr and 130gr VLDs.

Those bullets work great on the larger critters.

Bell stacked more than a few elephants with his .256 but solids as he didn't have access to VLDs.

So you're a pants-shiitter?

You make my point.

9.3x62mm.


GR

At what point does a 200gr Partition at 2700 fail, but a whatever from a 9.3x62 succeed?

Methinks you do more shooting your mouth online than you shoot anything offline.

Maybe a cape buffalo? I don't know as I have never shot one..... oh and pay no attention to Garandimal he is a dumbazz

Nice looking blackie.

Think...?

Don't hurt yourself.

Ha!




GR

And again, my point is made.

You buttheads just can't help it.

Ha!




GR

I challenge you to find ONE story where a 30-06 and 200gr Partitions didn't put down a cape buffalo. Just one.

I am sure it would work fine.... after a small bribe was paid to the local game official...

I believe there are countries where you can apply for a special permit that allows you to bypass caliber/energy restrictions, along with those locales that don't have restrictions. I've read a few stories of guys using 30 cals, including a 30-06 with 180gr Partitions, to hunt and shoot cape buffalo. To no one's surprise, it worked just fine.

I was having a conversation one day with a former African PH and he told me he could kill every buffalo with one shot from a 270 , if he had Winchester 140 gr failsafe bullets

Very well said, Sir.
Rex

Would that "former African PH" be Ross Seyfried who said that?

Thought so!

I have hunted with several PHs who had done a bunch of buffalo culling in their careers--and probably already mentioned some of this earlier. But what they said was NOT theory, but experience.

One culled around 500 buffalo--all sizes from calves to mature bulls--at various angles with the original 180-grain Nosler Partitions (those with the "relief" groove) from a .30-06. They were not shot in the head at night, but were killed on day-time drives on a big Rhodesian ranch when domestic cattle were more valuable than buffalo. He never had a problem. Same deal with a buddy of his--though he preferred the original "blunt-nosed" 200 Partition.

When I hunted in Tanzania in 2011, the 17-year-old son of my primary PH had just killed his first bull buffalo with a .300 Winchester Magnum and one 180-grain Barnes TSX. He shot it behind the shoulder, and the bull went the pretty much average 100 yards and keeled over dead.

Another PH on the same hunt had used a 7mm Remington Magnum with whatever "good" bullet he could get to handload to kill a bunch of buffalo

Eileen and I killed a bunch of big game with the 140-grain Fail Safe--and eventually Barnes TSX--with the .270 Winchester. I am sure any similar bullet from the .270 would work on Cape buffalo, partly because one of the animals Eileen killed with the .270 was a mature, 900-pound cow bison in Texas, that required a couple hours of stalking in thick brush, due to having the other cow it hung out with being killed a day or so before. When Eileen finally got a shot, she put a 130 TSX behind the shoulder, and the cow went 40 yards, wobbled a little, and keeled over before Eileen could shoot again--and she's pretty quick. Oh, and the "little" TSX exited.

If the bullet penetrates and expands sufficiently on the game at hand, it will kill pretty quickly with typical heart/lung shots--whether it's a Fail Safe, Barnes X, Nosler Partition or whatever.

John,
That is very interesting and I believe you 100% !
The advancement in bullets is a game changer in my opinion.
Yet every day here we hear about B.C. being the most important part of the bullet....... hmmmm

Never heard of her?

I sure miss Dober. Guy had a mess of class, never had to chest pump and was able to put the money on the table if he said he could.

Yessir, Dober is good people.

Don't have an 9.3 at the moment so I'm looking thru my little load book I just got from JB. I've got 200gr and 220gr projectiles.

Why do you guys have to turn every thread it seems into a pissing match...

having been a Boy Scout Leader since 2001 here in Oregon ( and have done it back in the 70s, 80s and 90s elsewhere)
you guys remind me of a bunch of 12 year olds bragging who's got the biggest dick...

Why can't you just appreciate what others have done, instead of trying to brag that whatever they did, you did more...

you "Heroes" need to act more like Adults than damn kids just entering puberty....

If you're so damn good, why don't you act like it, and instead of standing on your soap box and shouting it to the world.

Learned as a kid, a dependent of a Marine.... If someone needs to brag about something, most of the time they never did it...
The ones who actually accomplish a lot in life, really don't have to brag about it.

Scenar Shooter is a perfect example... as are a lot of other guys on the campfire...

The normal pissing contest around here boils down to the same dozen or so folks... over and over..

Grow up some....