Hello All,

I recently acquired a 280 O.K.H. experimental rifle built-up by Elmer Keith.

I was wondering if any of the old time Forum Members might have any of Elmer Keith's rifle books that might show this rifle. Perhaps it may have been referenced in articles in Guns Magazine or other publications of the time.

The rifle was built up from a Gewehr 98 action, with a 26-1/2'' medium-weight bull barrel. Barrel is marked ''.280-O.K.H.'' (O'Neil, Keith & Hopkins) at the side. It is topped with an Lyman Alaskan All-Weather scope, one of Keith's favorites. Top of barrel is also marked ''280-300-CCC'' (Controlled Combustion Chamber), a later and final chambering by O'Neil. Apparently the 280 O.K.H. is a .300 H&H magnum case reconfigure it to take a .28 cal. 180-grain bullet.

Approximately 450 .280 cal. projectiles and 100 pcs of H&H brass in a small wooden crate were included with the rifle. The crate has a Railway Express label and the top of crate lid is addressed to Elmer Keith, North Fork, Idaho; sides of crate are additionally marked ''C.M. O'Neil, Hopkins, Minn.''.

The North Fork Idaho address is the location of Keith's ranch in the the 1930s and early 1940s on the North Fork of the Salmon River near Salmon, Idaho. The rifle corresponds to the years just prior to WWII.

Elmer Keith developed many important firearms calibers. He experimented with many various rifle cartridge configurations, some of which caught on and became famous, and other calibers such as this that became stepping stones to more effective cartridges.


I was able to find the following reference in the May 1960 issue of GUNS, Elmer mentions this rifle specifically.



Whats that? .... Eagles?

Here is what the rifle looks like with its accessories.



Anyone finding a reference, please respond.

thanks

What's that? ... Eagles?

"PESTS!"

Wish I could help. Nice wood, but looks like they started with a blank lacking enough dimension to finish out the forearm end.
Good catch there.

You may want to check into his book "Big Game Hunting" it's been years since I read it, but he mentions most of the firearms that he used on his ventures.

buck, the 285 OKH used the '06 case as a basis for the cartridge..if you have 300 H & H brass necked to 285 with no other changes, I would be you have a .280 Dubiel...Elmer shot this before the .285 OKH..The load you have of 55 gr. of 4350 and a 180 grain bullet is correct for the 285 okh, but it was on the 06 case..In some of my books, I have a photo of Keith's rifle, it had a peep sight base, I believe, and I know it had an EK on the pistol grip..I think it was carved into the wood before the checkering was cut..it also had a double set trigger..I would have to do some looking to locate the photos, but the rifle you have is not the one pictured in the books I have..BUT that means nothing..Elmer easily could have had two of these rifles..I know he had a couple .333okh's. Hope this helps, if you need more info..and I can help I would be happy to if I can..at any rate, you have a super neat rifle...

Hello,

Thank you for the reply.

Yes, I'm familiar with the 285 OKH. Its basically a 280 Remington. This is in fact a 280 OKH.

The .280 Dubiel is very close, only a very slightly smaller shoulder dia. The Dubiel is listed with a .284 dia bullet, however, and this 280 OKH has a .288 dia bullet. The load given of 55g of 4350 is from Elmer's article and this load also came with the rifle.

Elmer's 280 Dubiel is a different rifle. The action, stock, and barrel were all different. The fact that he referred to this rifle as a "Heavy Barrel 280 OKH" leaves no doubt that he must have owned both. I'm not sure which came first.

But since he mentioned this rifle in a 1960 Guns Magazine article as his favorite for a task, makes me think he may have mentioned it at other times as well.

I'm still hoping that someone will run across a picture.

Wow...what a piece of history.

In his book Safari, Elmer had a lot, if not all, of his rifles pictured. This one might not have been in it, as he might not have had it then. The seeming short fore end is the European style, and would be proper. Have you attempted to chamber a piece of the H&H brass, as it might have just been included. Ackley says, the 285 essentially the 280 Rem/7mm06, and loads the same.

Back in Elmers day, Eagles dispised. He shot them when he could, and his DIL sent me a picture of a NRA cover with Elmer and Loraine on the front, with a dead eagle. I have also read a story by a guy who went on a couple months hunt to Alaska, who paid for part of it, by shooting eagles for the bounties.

Would much rather have that rifle of Elmers, than the one (there are actually a dozen) of Warren Pages, that are coming up for sale.

Was just looking closely (as possible) and appears ammo in the picture not belted so presume it's on the 06 case. Love that rifle.

That wooden ammo box is beyond cool. What a different time he lived in.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, the ammo in the picture (4 rounds) is belted. Just a little hard to make out. It is 300 H&H necked down to 280. They are about 3-5/8" long.



You can see that this action was specially altered for this long cartridge. There is a radius cut-out in the side of the receiver ring to accomodate the extra long length of the 280 OKH round. The GEW 98 action was originally designed for the 8x57mm Mauser cartridge with a loaded length of only 3-1/4".



I really enjoy this rifle with its Elmer Keith provenance. Now I'm trying to get a little more history about it, if it still exists. Finding a book reference with a picture of the rifle would be the greatest, but another magazine reference would also do nicely.

I find it interesting, that on a hunting rifle, with rifle scopes of that time not yet fog / fool proof, Mr. Keith was willing to go with out iron sights.

Keiths Rifles for Large Game has several mentions of the 280 OKH.

Hello, thanks for your reply.

Could you tell me what pages in Keith's Rifles for Large Game mention the 280 OKH, and what was said?

I understand what you are saying about scopes of the day. I think this rifle was more of a specialty rifle than a "drag-it-around" hunting rifle. It is pretty heavy with its long 26-1/2" Bull Barrel. The barrel also has in place target blocks for use with a long Lyman or Unertl style target scope.

bstix,

sorry, no can do. I do not own a copy of the book. I had occasion to study it a few years back, so all IIRC.

Golden eagles were/are the nemesis of sheep and goat ranchers, as well as to deer and antelope herds. jack

I just looked through my copy of Keith's "Big Game Rifles & Cartridges" and there is no mention of the .280 OKH, but numerous mentions of the .280 Dubiel.

Yes Eagles!
Alaska had a bounty on Bald Eagles back then!
They eat fish ya know!

Nice photos of an historical rifle; Elmer Keith did a lot for the development of modern cartridges and thsi rifle is a piece of his historical role. Thanks for posting.

Thank you Mesabi,

With as close as the 280 OKH is to the 280 Dubiel, I wonder if perhaps the 280 OKH came first as an experimental 280 Dubiel cartridge.

Anyone know exactly when John Dubiel invented his cartridge? I know that Elmer worked with John on several experimental cartridges in the late 1920s and early 1930s. Dubiel also built rifles for Keith as surmised from the following quote of Elmer's from a December 1959 issue of Guns Magazine.

...I tried out a .333 Jeffery back in 1929, and tried to interest John Dubiel in necking down the .300 Magnum cartridge (then in its abrupt-shoulder form) to .333, John agreed that it would make a fine long-range cartridge for all-around use on American big game, and he made up the reamers for the cartridge, that later became the .334 O.K.H. However, John got side-tracked on a 6 mm Magnum and was already working on his .280 Dubiel and .276 Dubiel. so he never made the rifle for me...

Found this in one of my old keepsake books, '69 G&A annual

Looks like a different one? Caption reads "Large mule deer taken
with 180 grain, .285 O.K.H.

edit- ok, still wrapping my head around the different versions,
yours is 280, this 285. Sorry!

Elmer was sort of my mentor in gunny stuff and he was the one who eventually pushed me into writing. He loved it that my .338-'06 was a modernization of his .333 OKH. Anyway, I wrote some of that stuff into Nosler Reloading Manual Number Six.

Shoot eagles? Yup, usually those nasty big ol' golden eagles. They literally can carry away lambs and I've seen a pair kill a newborn calf. Hell yes, we shot them.

I believe the headspace of the .285 OKH and the .30-'06 are the same. If so, the .285 OKH is identical to the 7mm-'06.

The .280 Remington's headspace datum is .051" longer than the '06 case.

I didn't read this whole thread, mostly because there was all kinds of non-essential stuff being thrown out. I'm not sure if anyone mentioned the primer tubes or the duplex loads. E. and I were forever talking about that.

Nice rifle. And your 7mm based on the .300H&H is entirely another round. We talked a lot about that, too. He loved it.

Given my choice of the rifle or spending one more hour with Elmer, I'd take the time with the wonderful man.

God Bless,

Steve


PS. Here's kind of a cool thing Elmer wrote in the front of one of his books he sent me. ST

Buckstix......your rifle looks very much like the one on page 97 of E. Keiths Rifles for Large Game, 1946 edition. The stock looks identical with the exception that in the picture....the butt plate looks to be a steel trap, not the vent rubber one yours has.

The caption on the picture reads....Noske scope in O'Neill-Hopkins mount on .285 O.K.H. Mauser. The barrel looks to be of similar diameter as yours also. Could it be that it was rebarreled at a later date for a more powerful 7mm cartridge. Elmer sent a lot of bullets down range and was a tireless experimenter.

Irregardless, you have a piece of history there. Elmer's writings were something I read rather voraciously. I enjoyed him a bunch.

Buckstix..........what is the diameter of the bullets in those .280 O.K.H. shells??

Hello Steve,

I love that he pushed you into writing. I had the same experience from a friend. He pushed me into it and I started my writing career with 1984 Gun Digest: "Big Bore Bullpup", 1984 Guns Illustrated: "Fourteen Fever", 1984 Handloaders Digest with "Sorting Out Accuracy".

My Fourteen Fever wildcat (14-222) is in Barnes COTW. One of my other cartridge creations was the Helm 747TJ featured in the 1979 American Handgunner.

I've pretty much done only Freelance over the years but I hope to get back into things about the time I get to old to pull a trigger.

Although I wasn't very familiar Elmer Keith's writings, I'm not surprised at his interests. My first long range target rifle was a model 70 with a heavy Obermeyer barrel in quick-twist 7mm-06. Not too long after I did most of my hunting with a Ruger 77 Varmint in 280 Rem. and my main stay has been a DuMollen Safari in 7mm Rem. Mag.

I really enjoy collecting the classic rifles from years gone by, like Leonard Mews (Weatherby & Custom) who was a friend from my gun club here in Wisconsin, Nils Hultgren (Weatherby & Winslow) Nils was also from here in Wisconsin and a bunch of other classics from the 1930s to the 1950s.

When this 280 OKH Keith rifle came along, I knew it had to come to Wisconsin to live.

And I know what you mean ... I too would trade my best Mews rifle for only 15 minutes with Leonard.

Hello Dave93,

I'm pretty sure that's a different rifle. Look at the pistolgrip. My 280 OKH bullets are .288 dia from WTCC - Western Tool & Copper Co.

Buckstix,

You might want to get a copy of Kieth's book "Hell, I was there" as it references the 280 Dubiel and the 285 OKH cartridges. Pages 176 to about 178 would be of interest, as well as some material in that area. I find no reference to the 280 OKH at all in this book. It may be there but sure didn't pop out in a quick review. He mentions the 285 as being developed in the 1938 to 1939 time frame. The 280 Dubiel is mentioned quite a lot as well.

There are a lot of photos in that book, all of them poor quality, of several of Kieth's rifles. You may find it interesting, especially his comments about the development of the duplex load.

He also talks about shooting Golden eagles, their $1 bounty in Idaho, and what a terrible pest he thinks they are and that the bounty should still be on them.

Hi Buckstix......I know what you're talking about when you say look at the pistol grip. The .285 O.K.H. that is throughout the book had a big K in the grip as well as open sights checkering and a schnabel ( spelling wrong on this ) fore end. But, the rifle I'm talking about looks like it could be the one you own. The stock looks exactly like the one you have, barrel has no open sights....the only differences I see is the butt I mentioned above and the way the scope is mounted in the book is different than how yours is. Maybe if somebody else owns a copy of the book, they might be able to scan it and post it here so that we can make a comparison. Could very well be the same rifle. It looks very close.

After reading a bit more I find that Keith mentions the 280 Dubiel as having a groove diameter of .2889. That is on page 178 of the book "Hell, I was there". That is larger than what you mention in an earlier post.

Can't argue with the 280 Remington regardless of what alias it may have.

Folks keep mentioning the 280 OKH, it's the 285OKH, was essentially the 7mm06/280. The Dubiel was a 280 Dubiel and built on a 300H&H case, formed. I sort of got the impression from a few things Elmer said, that there were only a couple made. It is .37 inches longer than a 7mmRM, so holds a lot more powder. It is equivalent to the 7mm Mashburn Super mag LONG. I'd think today .284 bullets would be used, just as we use .338s now in the 333OKH, modern 338.06..

With the powders of the time, I'd think it was badly over bore (even with todays powders would be).

Have you tried to chamber any of the cases you have. IF the belted ones go in, you have a 280 Dubiel, not a 285OKH, and note in the picture of the receiver, says 280-300, then something else.

Hello ghost,

When one reads the entire post in greater detail; my rifle IS a 280 OKH and is so marked on the side of the barrel near the receiver. (ITS NOT a 285 OKH) The top of barrel marking is 280-300-CCC which stands for a 280 on a 300 H&H case with a Controlled Combustion Chamber, which was originally known as PMVF, Powell Miller Venturi Freebore. Sometime later Hollywood Tool and Die renamed this feature to CCC. And essentially the 200-300-CCC was named by Elmer Keith as his 280 OKH.

The "280 OKH" is in fact nearly identical to the "280 Dubiel" which was also built on a full length 300 H&H case, also being invented about the same time as this rifle's cartridge, during the late 1920's. I'm pretty sure the 280 Dubiel did not use .284 dia bullets as listed in Donnelly, rather it used .288 dia. bullets used by Ross. This rifle also uses .288 dia. bullets and it came with a bunch which were made by WTCC. (Western Tool & Copper Co.)

This rifle's chamber and the cartridges that came with the rifle are full length 300H&H Mag. belted brass, being 2.875" long; and it does shoot very, very well.

And by the way, .... the 7mm Rem Mag has 4% MORE capacity than either the 280 OKH or the 280 Dubiel .... or even the 300 H&H for that matter, because the 7mm Rem Mag has a much larger shoulder dia. (see LoadBook cartridge volumes - top of shoulder) Although the 7mm Rem Mag case is about 3/8" shorter, it is a much fatter case!

All I can say is you got a way cool rifle and extras with it!!!

Thanks Huntz,

I'm still searching for a picture or other mention of this rifle in a magazine article or books. I've searched all the GUNS Magazines from when Elmer did his commentary, but found only the one mention in the May 1960 issue mentioned earlier. Anyone have a 1934 November issue of American Rifleman? Someone mentioned that as a possible source.

buckstix,

I've been looking through my collection of Elmer Keith literature and haven't found any reference yet, but I have quite a bot of his writing and will continue. I may also have a November 1934 AR, but if not I know where to find one.

What I am beginning to wonder is if the .280 OKH was a version of the .280 Dubiel with the extended flash-hole tube Keith mentioned experimenting with in the .285 OKH and other OKH rounds. Keith called this a "duplex" loading (though I have always wondered why) and claimed higher and more consistent velocities than with standard rear ignition of the powder.

By the way, I really liked your article "Sorting Out Accuracy." Read it when it appeared and tried some of the techniques on a new 700 in .223, which improved the accuracy considerably.

Friend Buckstix,

I just pulled my 1934 American Rifleman magazines. Believe it or not, I actually have a complete collection that I'll one day give to a young gunny man ... or maybe sell to a collector and donate the money to our Catholic school.

Anyway, there is an article on page 10 about the .280 Dobiel by my friend Elmer. The rifle photographed IS NOT your rifle.

HOWEVER

When I pulled the magazine from it's encasement, the cover photograph is of Mrs Keith, a little girl (wearing a matching tam and presumably their daughter) and a twenty-something old Elmer Keith.

Oh yeah, and they are posing by a pretty decent pronghorn antelope buck. I've killed bigger, and so did Elmer, but it IS a major buck.

The thing that was the jawdropper is that Mrs. Keith is holding what very, very much appears to be your rifle. The scope is a Lyman Super Targetspot or some such and an editor crudely retouched the photo so that there is a front sight. However, I'd be money that this is your rifle.

Everything looks very identical, including the bedded-too-high-in-the-stock barrel and the, for lack of another word, drop-down forend.

I'm leaving for daily Holy Mass right now and I have to drop a large check off at the parish office, but I WILL try to take photos of this cover photo for you and post them.

If you think it is your rifle, as I do, I can always make a high-quality photo of the AR cover photo and mail it to you. No charge, of course ... totally my pleasure.

Whatever, this cover photo is definitely a piece of Americana Gunnydom.

God Bless,

Steve

PS. I had a minute, so I took two photos. They are superb.

I'm out the door, going to church, but will get back to you in a few hours. ST

Thanks Mule Deer,

I really appreciate your efforts. I try very hard to obtain solid provenance on all my collectable. Too much history slips through our fingers unknowingly.

Thanks for the compliments on the "Sorting Out Accuracy" article. That's one rifle I wish I would have kept. But when I sold it, I provided a detailed letter about its construction and a copy of the Handloader's Digest.

I still have the 7mm-08 Big Bore BullPup that I wrote about in the 1988 Gun Digest. Nicest Myrtle-wood stock I've every owned.

Thank you dogzapper,

I look forward to seeing the picture.

OK, delivered my check and celebrated Holy Mass ... fabulous daily readings.

God Bless,

Steve

Below are the photos. Note, I layed the closer view on its side, so we could view the rifle better.

Congratulations on giving a Grand Old Rifle that once belonged to a Grand Old Rifleman a loving home and many thanks for sharing it with us.

Unfortunately, that is not the same rifle. Its not even the same metal in a different stock. The .280 OKH has a cut-out at the front of the ejection port to allow clearance for the full length H&H cartridge. The photo in TAR doesn't have that feature. Also, the stock in the photo is checkered and has a generous bevel at the ejection port. The .280 OKH rifle has neither.

Thanks for the Photo dogzapper,

Close, but no cigar. It is a different rifle. Bandukwallah has pointed out the differences. Sooner or later I'm sure a picture or a reference will turn up.

Thanks to all you folks, and keep on looking for me please.

John, I was mulling over the same idea as you yesterday about flash tubes and such. Keith claimed 2800 fps with a 180 grain bullet in the .285 OKH standard load and 3200 fps with the duplex load..sounds a little optimistic to me, but that's what Rifles for Large Game states. He also wrote ( I'm going from memory here ) that the .50 BMG went 202 fps faster with a duplex load over a standard load.

Emailed Buckstix some pix, one of which I think might be his rifle. Fingers crossed.

Yup, Bandukwallah nailed it. Close, but not quite there. Sorry for the false alarm.

But I DID find a cool article from J Bushnell Smith on the All-Around Rifle. Remember Smith; he was a commerical loader who was a good buddy of Jerry Gebby, of .22-250 Varminter fame. Smith eventually blew himself and his basement loading room off the planet ... they figger he had a round pop off and it fired into a keg of powder.


Just for kicks and giggles, I carefully searched my 1935 Samworth copy of Big Game Rifles and Cartridges. Lots of Dubiel stuff, but no .280 OKH mentioned. Dang it!!!

By the way, I remember buying the Samworth for $1.00 from Cameron's Used Book Store in downtown Portland about 1952 or 1953.

God Bless,

Steve

Well Buckstix emailed me and said close but no cigar. Maybe he'll post my pic anyway.

I'm in my 400 Whelen stage, largely based on that Samworth book (which Elmer was NOT happy about).

A friend borrowed my "Big Game Hunting", which was published later.

I'll have to check it on the 280 OKH.

His use of it had to be between WWII and the fifties, or at least before Warren Page wrote about belted 7mm's.

They had quite a few cartridges of OKH fame that Elmer wrote about, but never seemed to use on game, like the 423.

I am still plowing through my Keith stuff. Didn't find any reference to the .280 OKH in either BIG GAME RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES or KEITH'S RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME, but did run across the same photo of Lorraine and the pronghorn Stevie Dogzapper posted in HELL, I WAS THERE! (I knew I'd seen it before.) The caption says the rifle is a .280 Dubiel confirming what's already been deduced from the photo.

However, a few pages further on there's a photo of Keith with a pronghorn with what DOES like like Buckstix's rifle, including the cut-out in the front of of the magazine port and what appears to be an ebony forend tip. The stock is also the right shape. The scope is different, but scopes can be changed, though the rifle with Keith has a front sight--and the caption also identifies it as a .280 Dubiel.

There are several pages on the OKH cartridges in KEITH'S RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME, but no mention of a .280 OKH. Another possibility I though of is that that Buckstix's rifle IS a .280 Dubiel, but was made by Charlie O'Neil when he and Don Hopkins and Keith were essentially in the rifle-building business together.

The 280 Dubiel isn't a belted mag case. Its basically a 280 Rem, as is the 285 OKH (per Handloaders manual of cartridge conversions), but like the 333/334 OKH, there are/were full length belted and even "short belt" versions with monikers identical, except the "belted" tags at the end.

Not to get off subject, but what are the odds of a fellow member, like mr.buckstix, asking "Does anyone have a November 1934 issue of the American Rifleman?"

Where else in the world could a fellow member almost instantly access that information, that 78 year old information, in an amazing 22 minutes???

By the way, I have a full collection of Rifleman mags and I have them wonderfully organized, so if any of you ever need historical info, just holler.

Another small fact; my first four deer I whopped a Model 94 .30-30, which (amazingly) I still own. And, being a kid, I ceremoniously carved four notches in the buttstock.

When I was fourteen, the NRA Convention was here in Portland and I skipped school every day. It was OK with my Mom & Dad, but not OK with Cleveland High School, but I went anyway.

That is where I met Elmer Keith for the first time. We'd been writing back and forth for maybe five years and my Mom helped me write my letters and fully comprehend what he wrote back. Indeed, Elmer's letters looked like the he'd "Written on a Big Chief tablet with a carpenter's pencil."

I'll never forget. Elmer was talking to a man, a big man. And I was standing maybe four feet back of the big man ... for maybe ten minutes. Elmer glanced to the side, winked at me (he'd only seen my in the few b&w photos I'd sent him) and told the big man, "Excuse me, I have a very special friend to talk with and this will take a while."

He walked up to me, squatted down and said softly, "Steve Timm, never forget that you are my friend and when you are my friend, you are my friend FOREVER."

We went to lunch (he paid ) and during that afternoon he introduced his "Special Friend" (that would be me) to Parker Ackley and August Pachmyr and goodness knows how many gun industry giants. And when my Dad came to pick me up at 5:00PM or so, Elmer and PO walked me to the curb and introduced themselves.

My Dad was stunned.

Our correspondence continued for many years. We talked about hunting and killing and the difference between them. We talked about the .285 OKH and I killed deer number 5 through 40 or so with a lovely .285 that I scrimped and saved for.

He loved my trip to the Yukon in 1978 and I don't know who was happier with my 44-inch dall ram, Elmer or me. I DO remember kneeling on the top of that windy ridge, beside that fifteen year old ram, and praying to God ... thanks for this fabulous ram and thanks for an especial friend, a friend named Elmer Keith.

As he published books, he always sent me a copy. Each had a wonderful message in that broken handwriting. And in some, he made notations in the margins ... wonderful comments.

By the way, the Elmer Keith vs Jack O'Connor thing is a little overblown. I have no idea (nor do I care even a little bit) what Jack O'connor thought of Elmer. Elmer considered Jack to be a "shooter" and that was it.

And, frankly, I have never saw the Magic that others saw in Jack O'Connor's words. Way later, my PhD editor fella was telling me how great O'Connor was and he even sent me a bunch of books ... again, I just didn't see it.

But Elmer's words? I hung on each and every word because he was a hunter, he was a man of the earth, he respected each and every game animal ... and that made all the difference.

Oh, one last comment: When Karen and I were on our honeymoon, I took my bride to Salmon, Idaho. I wanted Karen to meet Elmer Keith and Lorraine. They approved and they both hugged both of us.

Yeah, a very special man ... a man named Elmer Keith.

God Bless All of You and May God Bless America,

Steve

WOW, what a great story Steve. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I read alot and sometimes even remember it,depends on who wrote it. In one of Elmer's books he explained that he and o'neil and hopkins never really duplexed anything. In the 30's they developed the extended flash tube to ignite the charge from the front to develope higher velocity. They understood immediately the importance of this in military applications (artillery rds etc.) They did not wish to give this tech strategic advantage to the Germans so they explained it as "duplexing". Elmer later stated he knew they did the right thing but allways regretted not being able to explain the truth period. Magnum Man

If Elmer Keith had worked in artillery he could have been the Gerald Bull of his era.

Hello HawkI,

The 280 Dubiel IS a belted Magnum case. Here is a picture of one identified from International Ammunition Association. A 300 H&H Mag necked to 280 (.288) with no other changes. Several other photos also show belted 280 Dubiel cartridges with an original Dubiel letterhead.



I think Mule Deer is correct in the assumption that my 280 OKH rifle IS a .280 Dubiel, but was made by Charlie O'Neil when he and Don Hopkins and Keith were essentially in the rifle-building business together.

Ultimately this may boil down to Who-coppied-Who because I know that Elmer Keith was friends with John Dubiel, and John made reamers and rifles for Elmer.

Dave93 did send some pictures ... and ... "close, but no cigar. I'll bet with all the help I'm getting, someone will find a picture of my rifle somwhere, albeit 280 OKH or 280 Dubiel.

My mistake.

After looking again, all references in Big Game Rifles and Cartridges, plus HMoCC, do show the 276 and 280 Dubiel "Magnums" were made on belted cases.
The cases are somewhat shorter than full length HH dimensions (it says 275 HH brass for the 276 Magnum.

It sounds like you found your answer: Its a 280 Dubiel Magnum rifle made during the OKH, post-war period.

Hey dogzapper,

I'd gladly trade you this rifle for those Elmer Keith memories if I could have them. You are truly Blessed!

You may be right, the 280 O.K.H. may be Elmer's version of a 280 Dubiel.

I'll bet someplace there is a picture to be found of my rifle.

Also, if anyone out there owns a 280 Dubiel I'd love to swap a fired case for comparison.

In Guns and Ammo, June 1977, Elmer mentions the OKH cartridge lineage, but makes no mention of a 280 OKH.

He does go on to say he sold his .280 Dubiel and used the 285 OKH, based on the '06 case, but using their threaded rod charge tube.

What is Steve talking about, anyway?



Mine is from 1936....

Dogzapper,
That is a wonderful story. Its exactly the way that I imagined Elmer to be - an exemplary friend. Its interesting that he introduced you to PO Ackley, since he and PO tried to kill each other when they were at Ogden Arsenal. They must have smoked the peace pipe at some point .

I don't think it was post-war period. The WTCC .288 bullets and the H&H brass that came with the rifle had a Railway Express label and the top of crate lid. It was addressed to Elmer Keith, North Fork, Idaho. The crate came from ''C.M. O'Neil, Hopkins, Minn.''.

The North Fork Idaho address is the location of Keith's ranch in the the 1930s and early 1940s on the North Fork of the Salmon River near Salmon, Idaho. In the late 1940s both Elmer and his wife Lorraine moved into the town of Salmon, so the rifle corresponds to the years prior to WWII not after.

The perfect candidate for some Talley LWs and a McSwirly...

But seriously, that's cool! Always thought a 7mm-300 H&H would be neat.

You Sir, are quite correct.This really blew me away,and not only that but folks going out of their way to help another member out!!!!Quite cool in my books!!!!

He states was writing about the 285 OKH in 1939 using those bullets he developed for the 280 Dubiel, the second he worked with CM O'Neil starting in 1937 (the 250 O'Neil). The Dubiel Magnums were before his work with O'Neil (Big Game Rifles and Cartridges published 1936) and Hopkins and it sounds like he had Dubiel enlisted to make a 333 on the '06 case, but Dubiel had passed away.

The whole "OKH" thing sounds like obfuscation; but he does state they were "experimenting" with different parent cases during that time and he had ideas that did not come into finished arms until Dubiel had passed, like the 333.


Its quite possible the slight differences in your dimension findings along with the Elmer's use of the Dubiel cartridges made them create an essentially "identical", but not, cartridge.

I'll try to get "Big Game Hunting" back, and see if there is any help there.

In Keith�s Rifles for Large Game, Keith says; �After the throat of my old .300 Magnum Hoffman rifle was worn�, (which he earlier stated was
built on a Mauser action) �Dubiel fitted it with another medium heavy barrel for the 280 Dubiel Magnum cartridge�.

Could this be your rifle?


Dennis.

Good morning,

As my research continues, and while reading until 3:00 am this morning, I have located a second reference to the 280 O.K.H. cartridge.

While digging through books of the period, I found this statement in "Practical Dope on Big Bores" by F.C. Ness, (1948 ed) page 191.



It only mentions it in passing, and to date I have found no other direct reference to the 280 OKH in this book. Interestingly it refers to it as a "Duplex" cartridge, which makes me think it was one of Keith's experiments with yet another "tube-forward-ignition" system cartridge.

One very interesting point comes from L.W. Youngberg's statement about the 280 Dubiel "becoming" the best long range gun in the World "if properly developed."

This implies that he had already been making bullets for the OKH 280 Duplex cartridge "before" the 280 Dubiel, while the Dubiel was still "being properly developed"; hence, the 280 OKH must have come first.

Since the OKH 280 Duplex (280 OKH) is mentioned along with the 280 Dubiel, one must therefore assume that they were in fact different cartridgeS during the same time period.

Perhaps John Dubiel being a gun builder, helped to better identify his 280 Dubiel cartridge and place it into history, while Elmer's 280 OKH cartridge fell through the cracks of time.

Hawk1,

I went through BIG GAME HUNTING pretty carefully last evening and couldn't find any references to the .280 OKH.

Now I'm going to try some other books. not by Keith, from the same era.

This is a fascinating thread!

There does not seem to be any relationship between an "extended flash-hole tube" and the word "duplex".

My understanding has been that the forward ignition tubes that Keith used were one thing and that for him a "duplex load" was a mix of 2 different powders, a reloading practice that Keith seemed to appreciate and use fairly frequently.

I checked into dies for a full length 284-300H&H with Redding and it wouldn't be cheap nor quick...

Most interesting thread...

Buckstix, looks like the person who commented on the bullets, made the same conclusion you did, that the 280 Dubiel would be also called the 280 OKH. But I've read everything Elmer wrote more than once, and never heard of the 280 OKH, only the dubiel.

Tomk: CH4D die company in Ohio will make or have dies for the 280 Dubiel. Probably quicker turn around than Redding and maybe less expensive. I'll see if I can get their webb site and come back and edit this to attach it.

Caliber List : CH4D Die Set #, Caliber, Price, Group, Notes, Shell Holder, Case Holder ... Policy � Site
Map � Links. � 1998-2011 CH Tool & Die/4-D Die Co. All rights reserved.
www.ch4d.com/catalog/dies/caliber-list

Deersmeller, maybe you ought to read pages 177,178, and 179 in "Hell ,I was There" by Elmer Keith he explains why they used the term duplex as I explained in my previous post.
Elmer did like and respect John Dubiel alot, I wonder if the 280 OKH and 280 Dubiel are 1 and the same but that, he Elmer referred to the 280 OKH as the 280 Dubiel because it was in a Dubiel rifle out of respect for the maker? Just a thought like we all know a 30-06 is the Springfield but if someone is casually asked what they are using they might repy " a 30-06 Ruger or Remington or Winchester ,etc." Magnum Man

Buckstix. Just checked the CH4D site, and they do NOT list the 280 Dubiel round (about 2,000 others though). He does say, if you have a round you need him to make you a set of dies for, he can do that too, so might want to contact him. He'd need one of the rounds you have, to make it from. Since Magnum Man has addressed the duplex thing, I won't. Suffice it to say that howitzer rounds DO have a stem that comes up to about the middle of the case, with holes in it, to bring the ignition, towards the front, or perhaps, just direct it up, down and sideways to get a better burn. I have such a case and the stem is about 1/2 in thick, and hollow, to bring the ignition forward. But a 4 or 5" wide howitzer round, that a big 1/2 inch tube can be screwed into, a lot easier than trying to put one not much bigger than the flash hole in an 06/300H&H case.

Saw where the rifle you have was auctioned. Kinda wondering what you paid for it?

Thanks ghost. IIRC and I probably don't, when I hunting around there was also some Euro cartridge equivalent to the H&H case necked down either to 288 or 284 (as well the Super Mashburn long). My interest was the 284.

At least Youngberg's comment was another reference to the 280 OKH.

Yes, the only reference by Keith himself that I've found was the one in Guns Magazine about long range shooting of Coyotes and Eagles.

I talked with CH4D and they quoted a price of about $120 and 4-6 months delivery on supplying them with a couple of fired cases. I've used them several times and they are extremely reasonable on custom dies. Having said that, by mixing and matching different reloading dies from my stash, (I have over 225 sets of reloading dies) I've been able to load just about anything, albeit a little more time consuming.

Wow! Neat rifle and wonderful story. Best of luck in your research.

Ghost you and I are on the same page(#177) of "Hell, I was There" by Elmer Keith.
Birth of the Duplex

On my way back to Michigan, I ran into friends in Minneapolis, who gave me a fine dinner, and I became acquainted with Charley O'Neil there. Later on Charley and I started experimenting with various cartridge rifles. First we necked the 30 Newton down to a .22. Then we tried it in .25 calber. A few shots from that thing, and the barrel would get so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it, especially ahead of the chamber. Finally we fired 10 or 15 shots through the thing one day and I actually put a cigarette on it and it started to smoke.
I told Charley. " We are firing the powder from the wrong end".
He said," what do you mean?"
"Well," I said, " if we could ignite the front end of that charge, and start the bulle up the bore with a portion of it, then the pressure that drove the bullet forward would hold the powder back in the case until the fire came back and it was all consumed."
I could see no way of accomplishing this, but gave Charley the idea. He had a good head. He went home and he went to work. He drilled out the flash hole in the primer pockets and then threaded them. He got some brass tube that was small enough to thread, and a split collet wrench, screw them in from the front end of the case. We experimented with various lengths of tube, finding that tube half the length of the powder chamber about right and gave the best results. This carried the flash of the primer to the forward end of the powder charge. We worked with it quite awhile, finding that we had something, so we applied for a patent. We got one on it. At the time the war in Europe was going on, and it looked like we would be into it. I didn't want to give it any publicity, other than tell the results, which I did in the American Rifleman and others. The then head of the "dope bag" in The American Rifleman wrote a piece and said we were mixing powders, which we were not doing at all, but I didn't want the dope to get out for the German technicians to get ahold of, because I was sure it would greatly boost velocities with a lot of artillery, especially with their 88's.
from pg 177 " Hell ,I was There" by Elmer Keith

Several paragraphs later EK tlks about using these 285 OKH "Duplex cases" and 4350 with the 180 gr Western Tool and Copper Works bullets. Not sure how a rifle loony can be one without a copy of "Hell, I was There" Magnum Man

I whole lot less than I figued it was worth.

Not sure how many other people own a rifle that belonged to Elmer Keith. Does anyone know of another?

safe to say there is only one like yours...

neat thread, almost as interesting as BW's thread on his mauser that belonged to Osa Johnson.....neat to read bout these "historical" rifles that are still around and being used...

I can't see a competent gunsmith/stockmaker letting a rifle with a barrel not bedded to the center line out of his shop. A lot of the work on this rifle seems to be quite well done and thought out. But, if the stock was made with a rounded contour that extended all the way to where the wood meets the barrel steel and at a later date the rifle was rebarreled to a heavier contour some wood would have to be removed to accept the larger contour and would result in the same appearance as the rifle in question. Think of it as two circles, one large, one small and overlapped at the top. Then enlarge the smaller circle a bit and see how it moves the shoulder of the larger circle down. With two sets of cartridge markings on the rifle I have to wonder if rebarreling was done. In your search for pictures you may find a rifle that wears a lighter barrel but was later modified that fills the bill.

I don't think so. From what I can piece together, Elmer befriended Harry Snyder at the 1925 National Matches at Camp Perry. Snyder was a co-owner of Hoffman Arms Co., and as a young rifle loony Elmer spent a lot of time hanging out in their booth and examining their rifles. In 1927, Snyder hired Elmer to go along as a cook/guide on a long horseback hunting trip in Canada. Either in '25 at Camp Perry, or possibly in '27 during their hunt, Snyder gave Elmer a custom Hoffman .300 H&H made on a Magnum Mauser action. Keith had it on his '27 hunting trip and used it when he crawled through a wet grassy meadow to shoot a caribou. At that time the rifle wore only open sights.

Some time later, when the throat had worn and after Elmer had met John Dubiel, Dubiel rebarreled the Hoffman to .280 Dubiel. Elmer scoped it with a Lyman 12-power Targetspot scope and used it to shoot a 15" antelope in 1932, which I believe may have been Idaho's first antelope season. Elmer continued to use the .280 at least through 1935, as there are several pictures of it in "Hell, I Was There," including the photo that Dogzapper mentioned. That is definitely not buckstix's rifle, as we've already determined. Elmer elsewhere described getting some .308 match bullets that had been swaged down to .289 and shooting eight-inch groups at 800 yards on his ranch in North Fork, Idaho with this rifle. I believe he later sold the rifle to a wolf hunter in Alaska, who subsequently died in a plane crash, perhaps with the rifle on board.

For what it's worth, Elmer lived on his ranch in North Fork, Idaho from 1930 to 1949, when he moved into town at nearby Salmon. The box shipped to Elmer at North Fork shows it had to have shipped in that time frame, and I'm guessing it was after at least 1935 because up until that time Elmer still had the custom Hoffman Mauser. Elmer does mention that John Dubiel was making him a custom .280 and at the time of Dubiel's death the rifle was finished except for the checkering. According to Dubiel's son, the rifle was stolen. Perhaps someone here knows when Dubiel died?

There apparently is some overlap between Elmer working with Dubiel and working with O'Neil and Hopkins, so putting an exact date on buckstix's rifle may be difficult. Elmer moved from the .280 Dubiel to the .285 OKH, which he used with his "duplex" loads. He mentions that he wrote the rifle up in AR but was deliberately vague about what the "duplex" meant because he did not want the Nazis to learn of the technology. This had to have been in '39, '40 or early '41 because Elmer mentioned that the US had not yet entered the war but that Hitler was on the move in Europe and Elmer had believed that we would soon be drawn into the conflict, hence the secrecy.

Elmer liked fine rifles, but he was also an incessant tinkerer, so my guess is that this rifle was made between '35 and '39 and intended to be used for testing and experiments. If he had intended to keep it for his own hunting, I think it would have been more finely finished, including checkering on the stock. However, during this phase of his career he was keenly interested in long-range stalking rifles and was constantly experimenting. As far as the OKH partnership was concerned, I believe Elmer provided the ballistic insight and testing, O'Neill was a gunsmith who at least did metalwork including barreling and chambering, and Hopkins was their financial support. Perhaps O'Neill wasn't much concerned with stockmaking?

All said, this rifle and accessories are an incredible find, and an interesting piece of history. Hope buckstix can find a photo of Elmer with the rifle to put with it.

Greg Perry

As I recall, Youngberg lived in Chicago and he is the one who swaged 173-grain .308 match bullets down to .289 169-grain for Elmer to shoot in his .280 Dubiel. Elmer stated that if a shooter could get enough of these bullets, the rifle could win the 1000-yard Wimbledon Match at Camp Perry.

gaperry- Do you happen to know about where Elmer's ranch was in North Fork? I've been through there a lot of times and am curious. BTW, the $1.50 I've spent for showers at the North Fork campground is some of the best money I've ever spent after 4-5 days on the hill...

I've driven through North Fork and saw the campground you speak of, and visited Elmer's house and grave in Salmon, but I'm afraid I don't know where his ranch was. I met two elderly ladies at the county historical society who had known Elmer and remembered him wearing his hat, stogie, and sixgun as he walked to the post-office everyday, and that he had been a town constable. My understanding from them is that the origninal ranch house burned down long ago, but they were unable to give me directions. It would be a cool place to visit, especially if you could find his range backstop and dig up a few .44 Keith bullets.

The lady working the counter at the hotel where I stayed in Salmon had lived there all her life, and she had worked in the cafe that is now a Chinese restaurant. She said the cafe opened very early, and Elmer would come in about 4:00 a.m. and have a bowl of oatmeal or perhaps just a pot of tea as he read the day's newspaper. In his later years he liked to sit and talk to the regulars every morning. She said he was old-fashioned, but a real gentleman.

I also drove down the Salmon to where the Middle Forch branches off, and imagined where Elmer had testfired new Remington .45 ACP loads at a 200-yard rock that projected from the Middle Fork. That part of Idaho has to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth.

If you are ever in Shoup, the little place there has great hamburgers and milkshakes, as well as a photo album of all sorts of big game that local residents have taken near the Salmon. If you've hunted there, you might even be in it.

Out front there is an old-fashioned gas pump with the glass top that you fill with a hand pump and then empty into your gas tank with a gravity-flow hose. While I was there a local came in wanting to buy gas, and the woman proprietor was kind enough to let me pump it, since I was fascinated by how it worked. Without thinking, I asked her how long the pump had been there. She looked at me funny, then replied "Since they invented gasoline."

Very little has changed since ol' Elmer packed Zane Grey in and out of that Salmon River country in 1931.

Yep, I've been to that country. Very special part of the world indeed. Funny you mention the Middle Fork. Last time I was there was to take a raft out at the end of the road past Shoup at the end of a bighorn sheep hunt (buddy had the tag). A milkshake at Shoup was a great way to cap off the 10 days of "river rations".

Though I didn't get to make it there this year, I elk hunt a bit north of there and hope to make it back in a few years. It's big country and pretty empty still today. I can only imagine how it'd have been in 1931!

This year I visited a different part of Idaho, the Bruneau and Jabidge canyon country along the NV border. Except for the actual Wilderness along the Middle Fork, it's about as lonely a country as I've been to. Very different from that part of the state, but in some ways almost as cool. Now if I could just convince my wife a move to Salmon would be a worthy endeavor...

Hello Greg,

Yes, I hope so too. Sooner or later, someone will find something to help solidify the mystery of why Elmer had this rifle built and what experiments he conducted with it.



Hello Magnum Man,

I guess I never considered myself a real rifle loony, just a collector, and then mostly vintage revolvers; up until my interest turned to vintage rifles. I was always a fan of Elmer Keith, but considered him mostly a "Big Revolver Guy" and am a late bloomer finding out so much about his rifle moxy.

One of my very close friends, Walley P., who has since passed away, gave me this "Yankee" all-brass bullet mold that he got from Elmer Keith back in the 50's or 60's at one of the Western NRA Conventions. Over the years, Walley and Elmer shared a fondness for BIG Revolvers that fired BIG Bullets, and Elmer passed this unique mold on to his friend Walley, whao later passed it on to me. It casts a whoppin' 260g hollow-point, 45 cal. bullet. Pictures are pretty much self explanatory. This is another one of my real treasures.

Magnum Man, thanks for the information and the reference.

It seems that Keith's cloak was pretty effective, since it still works today.

The earliest I can find use of the 280 Dubiel was 1932 and his collaboration with O'Neil started with the aforementioned 22 and a 25 O'Neil in 1937.

Experiments with OKH nomenclatured round started in 1939, as did the duplex/ignition tube.

I was wrong about a few of my details from my earlier post. Elmer did have the Hoffman Magnum Mauser rebarreled by Dubiel in .280 Dubiel, and Elmer did use it on antelope for several years before selling it. According to one of his Gun Notes columns, he had ordered the .300 Hoffman in 1926 when Hoffman Arms Co. was closing its doors, and John Dubiel stuck around the shop to finish the job for Elmer. He later rebarreled it, as HawkI says, probably in '32.

I had confused that rifle with a later rifle that Charlie O'Neil made for Elmer a few years later. It was a single shot bull gun in .285 OKH. Youngberg swaged 173-grain .308 bullets down to .285, and Elmer shot a 6-inch group at 800 yards. Elmer later sold that .285 OKH to a wolf hunter. Once the .285 OKH was developed, Elmer sold his .280 Dubiel and never looked back. According to another GunNotes column, Elmer first mentioned the .285 OKH in AR in '38. So, my guess is buckstix's rifle was made between '32 and '38. Checking old issues from AR and other magazines Elmer wrote for during that time frame would probably be the best bet for a photo because it apparently was never in any of his books.

Hello gaperry59,

I imagine its possible there may have been many rifles that Elmer owned, and used for experimenting, that didn't appear in his books. Perhaps this rifle was more of a tool for testing different loads and different bullets for long range shooting. This rifle's 26-1/2" heavy bull barrel and beefy rubber recoil pad may support this possibility since they would seem somewhat out of place on a hunting rifle.

The second hand information that was handed down to me with the rifle tells that Elmer sold this rifle to a fellow gun crank in the late 1950's. I was told he said it was seldom fired since then, but when it was, it shot very, very well. I'm currently attempting to obtain a direct first-hand account from this man about the rifle.

Meantime, I continuing to search Internet .pdf's of old gun magazines trying to come up with other references to a 280 OHH.

Does anyone know of magazines other than "Guns", "American Rifleman", "True", and "Handloading" that contained any of Elmer's articles of columns?

Outdoor Life and Sports Afield, and he was gun editor for another magazine that went belly up, but I can't recall the name just now.

Yeah, Elmer wrote for "The Outdoors" magazine out of Colombus, Ohio and another called * The Outdoorsman" Denver? Give those a shot. Magnum Man

Didn't Elmer write a monthly column for Guns and Ammo, "Gun Notes by Elmer Keith," for several years about 1970?

He wrote the column from the 60's to the 80's. The complete columns were published in a two-volume set a few years ago by Safari Press. I have them, and went through both, never finding a mention of the .280 OKH.

I concur, plus I have most of those original period G&A magazines, with no mention of the 280 OKH. I even checked the Mullin publication "Letters".

The 285 on the '06 case is mentioned all over, as is the 280 Dubiel.

In Big Game Hinting, I would think if the cartridge had existed there would have been mention of it, as it was the second to next publication he did after his time at Ogden Arsenal and WWII(1948). Rifles for Large Game being in 1946.

The one prior to this period is Big Game Rifles and Cartridges, 1936, in which he goes in detail over the 280 Dubiel.

FWIW, Elmer had excellent grammar and spelling in his hand-written material......

Elmer was a very good shot, and in the "stats" part of one of the early 20's Rifleman mags, that I have, he came in 2nd to a Jarhead (gasp), in the 600 yd match. At that time you shot it every day for a few days. He'd been using a 1903 Springfield, with a ladder sight (which they used a micrometer to set),and probably GI Issued match ammo. He lost to the Marine by 1 V. For those who don't know, Elmer did NOT like Marines. He was a Sgt in the Idaho N.G., and in those days you have to be invited to the National Matches, based on your shooting for the past year. If anyone is interested they need to read the account of Mr. Farr. Mr Farr was an old farmer, who came to Perry to see if he could "clean" shoot a 100%, at a 1,000 yds. He was issued (they did that back then) a Springfield match rifle, and 40 or so rounds of ammo (there were two or three different match ammos at the time). When he had finished shoot, elated at having shot a clean, he was told he had to keep shooting, as the match was a shoot till you miss match. He ended up with 72 straight bulls eyes, then dropped one, coming in 2nd to a (aaaah) Marine, who was about 40 years younger than him and shooting a scoped rifle. Mr. Farr was 62, didn't wear glasses, and laid there for quite a while, as between shooting a shot, and it being scored, and running the target back up, etc., would take a minimum of about 2 minutes a shot. I've worked the LR matches at Perry and can guarantee you this is a minimum time. He finally "got tired" and with light fading, finally dropped one out of the black. There's a FARR trophy match shot these days at the Nationals. Indeed, it's probably one of the oldest trophies around.

Due to his shooting a specific kind (brand?) of match ammo, folks were running all over the place to get him more, as he shot. Everyone was so impressed, they bought the rifle, and donated it to him. I saw it and a target, at the NRA convention in Orlando.. If you get a chance, read the story. Just search Farr trophy and story.

Hello HawkI,

Thanks for your help.

I'm sure there may have been other experimental cartridges that Elmer tried that may not have been mentioned in his books. I've discovered references to 250 OKH, 265 OKH, 276 OKH, 280 OKH, 285 OKH, 300 OKH, 33 OKH, 333 OKH, 333 OKH BELTED, 334 OKH, 334 OKH MAGNUM, 350 OKH, 375 OKH 423 OKH, 426 OKH, 475 OKH, etc.

With the 2 specific references discovered so far for the 280 OKH,

(1)"Gun Notes: May 1960 issue of GUNS"
(2)"Practical Dope on Big Bores: by F.C. Ness, (1948 ed) page 191",

I've kept searching. And now I have also found this interesting reference,

(3)"Handloader Magazine, Nov-Dec 1966, OKH Cartridges, by Bob Hagel."

There is even a picture of the cartridge. This may be the ever elusive 280 OKH. ? ?



I'm sure with continued research, other reference will be discovered. I thank all of you in advance for your continued searching.

It would be interesting to see a chamber cast of your rifle. If I read your description correctly, you now have a 280-300 CCC rifle, presumably converted from a 280 OKH. Or is it the reverse?

Also, looking at various rifles pictured in Elmer's book, Elmer Keith's Big Game Hunting, several were stocked by a Mr. Frost. Does anyone know anything about this gentleman?

I intend to do a chamber cast as soon as the Cerrosafe I have on order arrives. I intend to cast the chamber and a portion of the throat and into the bore. That way I can get accurate measurements of the chamber, the throat, and the bore.

I recently discovered Donnelly's book; Cartridge Conversions, lists a "300-CCC" cartridge which might have been the parent cartridge for the 280-300-CCC chambering. The CCC designation (formerly known as PMVF) would imply about a 3/4" freebore at the throat.

Measuring the throat accurately, should determine which came first, the 280-300-CCC chambering or the 280 OKH chambering.

Very interesting.

Look forward to a definitive diagnosis.

DF

I assume the CCC chamber shoulder is Weatherby-like as well.

This was a great read..Dogzappers story of meeting Elmer was fantastic..what a lucky guy..congradulations..Your opinion of JOC matches my impression of the guy..

Buck, there was an article on the OKH cartridges in PERCISION SHOOTING sometime back..I am not sure the 280 OKH is mentioned, but they did discuss the line of rifles..O"Neil built these almost on a whim it seems to me..I am not sure Elmer tried all of them..As for the 280 OKH, I do not remember seeing this mentioned, but I wonder if it could simply be O'Niels version of the earlier round??? As I remember, O'Niel did the metal work, Elmer tested the rifles and Hopkins supplied the $..I think they also said, Hagel stocked many of the rifles..Hopkins took most of O'Neils things when they found the old gunsmith dead in his shop...Great information on a real piece of history..

Before I forget, Elmer mentions writing for the old OUTDOORSMAN magazine..before my time, but he also wrote for GUNS magazine..I have some old copies somewhere..but I don't remember all the information in them..if I can locate them, I will check them out..good luck!!!!!

You might call Rifle Magazine 928- 445- 7810 and ask them to check key words like : 280 OKH or Elmer Keiths 280 , etc . They have everything Computerized and can tell you if there were any Articles on that Subject and which Issue they were in .

Buckstix.....don't forget, there was also the .333 OKH B ( for belted )....the little brother....approximately 2.5 inch case length...of the full length .334 OKH.

I am looking forward to seeing the chamber casts that you come up with. Thanks.

Hello Bandukwallah,

Near as I've been able to research, the CCC chamber had a radius on the neck only, not the shoulder. There came a time when this feature brought to the attention of, and was discussed with, Roy Weatherby. As we know, Roy Weatherby figured if one radius was good, two would be better, so he put a radius on both the neck and the shoulder.

Thirty years ago I bought a 200 specimen collection of old wildcat cartridges because I was really, really interested in them and had hopes that they would come in handy someday.
Anyway, I have cartridges, said to have been from guns so chambered for the 333,334,33-50,424, and 475 OKH series as well as a 280 Dubiel. Also in the collection was a 30-06 sectioned case with the extended primer tube and attributed to Keith. If you guys want to take a gander, one of you volunteer to post a picture. Make it snappy, though: I'm leaving in the morning for a three day bowfishing safari.

email them to [email protected] and ill get them up

JIMFLORAL's pics:

left to right. 333 OKH, 334 OKH, 33-50 OKH ( 8mm case), 280 Dubiel, 424 OKH. 475 OKH


The sectioned Springfield case

Hello rattler,

I hope you don't mind, I was able to shed a little light on these.

that does look alot better.....unfortunately i dont have any photo editting software on this computer so i couldnt lighten them up.....damn Photoshop licenses are expensive so i only have the program on the essential computers and back ups here at the office.....this computer only generally gets used for the subscription program as its the oldest in the shop....

Interesting information. The chamber cast will be highly interesting.

I'm think it as "experimental" as well.

We know that the 280 Dubiel is on the 275 HH case (slightly shorter than full length).

Its odd he never "glowingly" wrote about it, at least not so much as the 285, the 280 Dubiel and certainly not the 333.

Its odd he talks about both the 280 Dubiel then later the 285 on the '06 case as seemingly "better", but he had no chronograph and 4350 and 4831 powders were just then being adopted.

Interesting thread.

Thanks all for the pics. This is a good thread.

Donnelley page 280, lists the 280 Dubiel case length as 2.87 inches made from the parent case of the 300 H&H. Source is listed as "Dubiel". This is actually 0.02 inches "longer" than the 300 H&H case. I suppose it stretches a little from necking down.

The 2 loaded 280 Dubiel cartridges discussed by the "International Ammunition Association" (loaded by John Dubiel and with an original John Dubiel label) are loaded in Western 300 H&H cases. These cases measured 2.86 inches long.



Perhaps we can get JIMFORAL to measure the case length of the 280 Dubiel in his collection.

Wow, this is really quite a journey, and we're not even talking about YOUR cartridge/rifle!

I have the Donelly book, and that is what he shows to make the 280 Dubiel.

Elmer, in Big Game Rifles and Cartridges goes on to say the 276 Dubiel was on the 275 HH case and his prodding made Dubiel create the 280 Dubiel on the full-length case, even though Capt. Askins and Dubiel found the shorter case to achieve the same ballistics in the 276 cartridge.

Sorry to add to the confusion. Its not helping!

My 280 Dubiel cartridge, bearing the rare headstamp Hoffman 375 Magnum, has a case length of 2.870.
And if you promise to spell my name right in the future ( everyone wants to spell it with two Ls when there's only one) I'll send rattler more O'Neil/ OKH/ Dubiel cartridge pics. They will be from left to right .25 O'Neil ( 30 Newton case), .25 O'Neil Magnum ( 300 H&H case) .256 OKH ( 7mm Mause case), .276 OKH ( '06 case) and .276 Dubiel Mag. ( 375 H&H case)

As long as I'm waiting for my Cerrosafe to arrive, we might as well discuss the interesting details of the 280 Dubiel Cartridge, since so little is known about this long ago Super 7mm.

Here is another early reference to the 280 Dubiel. This drawing shows the 280 Dubiel Magnum as made by the Neidner Rifle Corporation. It also lists the case length at 2.870 inches.



This drawing is from "Practicle Dope on the Big Bores" by: F. C. Ness, page 192.

sorry bout that Jim, sometimes my fingers and brain dont talk to each other very well when im typing

left to right .25 O'Neil ( 30 Newton case), .25 O'Neil Magnum ( 300 H&H case) .256 OKH ( 7mm Mause case), .276 OKH ( '06 case) and .276 Dubiel Mag. ( 375 H&H case)

As my search for information on the 280 OKH cartridge continues, I started keeping track of those references to cartridges with an OKH designation. Here is my list so far.

250 OKH
256 OKH
265 OKH
276 OKH
280 OKH
285 OKH
300 OKH
33 OKH
333 OKH
333 OKH BELTED
334 OKH
334 OKH MAGNUM
350 OKH
375 OKH
423 OKH
426 OKH
475 OKH

Just have to love this topic as when I was a young lad spent quite a bit of time with my father hunting in Western Montana with Charlie O'neil. Still remember them and their discussions of the OKH line of cartridges. That would have been in the 50's and I believe Charlie passed away in the early to mid 60's. A long time ago.

In the past, I have had a 285 OKH, a 333 OKH, a 333OKH Belted, and a 424 OKH. The only one I still have is the 424 OKH.
The first was on the 06 case, the second on the 06 case, the third on the 275 Magnum case, and the last on the 375 Magnum case. O'Neil also had a 424 on a short case, but he wrote that he would recommend the long case. He at one time made a 333 on the 57mm case, but I never saw one.

I'm starting to think that every time Keith and O'Neil developed or experimented with a different caliber, they stamped an "OKH" after it.

Go ahead and clear your cards, folks; we have a winner.

Hello boy1,

Thanks for the suggestion. It took less than 4 hours after calling the number above to get a reply. Unfortunately, no mention of the 280 OKH was found. Looks like I wii be doing a chamber cast next Tuesday. I'll be posting pictures then.

Hello Folks,

Well, my Cerrosafe arrived today and I've spent the last 6 hours casting, measuring, photographing, disassembling & reassembling, and trying to get as many details into this discussion as possible.

Please excuse the unorganized introduction of the information; I'm just going to start listing facts as best I can about the rifle and accessories. Hopefully this will address many of the questions raised in previous discussions.

I'll start with the 280 O.K.H. caliber and cases.

Shown below are some of the fired empty cases that came with the rifle. This one box has the load "55g 4350 - 180g" hand written on the side. All the boxes and cases are Western Cartridges Co. 300 H&H primed brass.



The bullets are boxed in 25s and the top of the boxes are ink stamped "CAL. .280 MAG" - "180 GR. C.P." - Bullets measure 0.2885" diameter and 1.272" long and weigh 180 grains.



A chamber cast is shown along side a loaded cartridge. Overall Length of the chamber is 2.840". Overall Length of the case is 2.800". Case shoulder dia is 0.504". Length of the cartridge base to shoulder is 2.210". There is a 0.080" radius joining the neck to shoulder. This case has a single radius only, not a double-radius like a Weatherby case. There is NO radius of the shoulder to body junction. Chamber throat diameter is 0.2890" and the chamber has 1.9375" long freebore. This is a true "freebore" NOT throat erosion.



When you compare similar cases, the 280 O.K.H. falls between the 280 Dubiel and the 280-300-CCC. The Grains-of-Water capacity is shown below each case. Interestingly, the 280 O.K.H. and the 280-300-CCC are both nearly identical in capacity to our modern day 7mm STW being minus -8/10th of one grain, and plus +1/10th of one grain, respectively.



I disassembled the rifle entirely and discovered that the barrel has been set-back. There is an old "280-300-CCC" caliber marking under the wood at what appears to have been the top of the barrel of a previous mounting. It therefore reasons that the current 280 O.K.H. stamping is the last and current caliber.

The rifle's internal magazine box has been altered to take cartridges with an Overall Loaded Length of 3.600" long. And as mentioned earlier, the action port has a clearance cut-out to allow the removal of a loaded round.



The 26-1/2" bull barrel measures 0.875" diameter at the muzzle and 1.250" diameter at the receiver. It is cut with 6 lands and grooves. The unloaded rifle with the 2-1/2 power Lyman All-Weather Alaskan Scope weighs exactly 12-1/2 pounds. The scope has extra fine cross-hairs with a tiny 1/2-minute dot.

The wooden shipping crate has many historic stampings and labels. As depicted at the beginning of this post, the crate's lid shows Elmer Keith's "North Fork Idaho" address.



This end of the crate shows the Railway Express label.

[img]http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/express1a.jpg[/img]

Numerous Ink Stamps are found on all sides showing "C. M. O'Neil" and his "Hopkins, Minn." shipping address, as well as his "FED. LIC. 887", Federal Firearms License number.

[img]http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/express4a.jpg[/img]

The opposite side of the crate shows the remnants of another old faded label that has yet to be deciphered.

[img]http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/express3a.jpg[/img]

And here is something that I missed entirely. When I had the rifle apart, I searched the barrel thoroughly for any stamping that might give a clue as to who / when this rifle might have been built for Elmer. Only when I reassembled, cleaned, and oiled everything did I notice the "C M O'NEIL" stamp on the muzzle face. I guess that answers that!

[img]http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/muz4.jpg[/img]

Wow, what a history lesson..thanks for the information..these two were very interesting folks..I visited O'Neil's grave in Superior, Montana in 2011...You rifle must have been built before Charlie moved to Mt...there was a write up on O'Neil in Percision Shooting, I believe, in 2011...

This has been very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks Buckstix for starting this thread. It has been very interesting to say the least.

Yeah great thread and seems like you've gained some provenance too. Nice outfit .Magnum man

WOW! A window into top of the game wildcatting history. And, we have a ring side seat...

Thanks,

DF

AMEN! One of the best threads ever on the Campfire.

Used to be able to hunt bald eagles in Alaska for money. Back when they had a 5 cent bounty on Dolly Varden trout.

That 1.9375" is some free bore, and to think that some get paranoid with a normal 7x57 throat length of about .3545".

Hello ghost,

You mention you corresponded with Elmer's DIL. Is there any chance to find out if Elmer kept any journals or notebooks about his and Charley O'Neil's experimentation with rifles such as mine. It would be interesting to back-track their thinking of over 70 years ago.

Could you post a picture of the NRA cover?

I have had everything on hold while I waited for loading dies, which may never come. So, I finally put together some assorted dies to reload these, and I tried about a half-dozen different combinations.

Here is a 100 yd target that was shot with 55.0g of IMR 4350 and a 175g bullet. - Just like Elmer said in his write-up about this rifle. I had several groups right around an inch, but this was the best group "so far" - a solid 7/8" 5-shot group.

I'll post more pics as I get loads developed, if they do better than this. I guess this rifle would be good for long range hits on Coyotes and Eagles.

That's for sure!

This is the coolest and most informative thread I've read in Campfire history.

What a nice piece of living history.

Gunner

Great thread! Thanks!

The grand old rifle is still shooting pretty darn good.

I agree, I grew up reading Kieth and O'connor, this is way cool!!!

Indeed a very interesting thread. I was looking through a 1975 Gun Digest and found an article by Bob Hagel called Wildcats and Wildcatters. There are several pics of some of Charley O'neil's wildcats but none of your 280 OKH.

One is shown as a 7mm on the full length 375HH case but the neck on your case is much longer.

Anyway , looks like the old gun still shoots good. Good luck with it......

Yes, this 280 OKH cartridge is slightly different from that one. It has a longer neck and a radius at the neck-shoulder junction. As history has shown, Roy Weatherby adopted this radius for his line of cartridges. And he reckoned that if "one" radius is good, "two" must be better, so he added a second radius at the shoulder-body junction. Interestingly, Roy also believed in, and used, a free-bore in his chamberings, just like this one does, albeit Roy's free-bore was not as long as this one. Roy's freebore was about 1 inch, this one is 1-15/16 inches long.



I'm not sure what Elmer and Charley were thinking by using such a long free-bore. Perhaps that's why the project with this particular 280 OKH chambering ended and was never devoloped beyond this "one" experimental rifle.

I think I'm going to take it deer hunting next week and see what happens.

Does that case have any taper at all?

Yes, it has a slight taper. Base dimension just ahead of the belt is .513 dia and dimension across the shoulder is .502 dia. That works out to about a .011 difference, or a .005 taper. That's why it has a volume thats only .8g less than a 7mm STW and a 12.6g more than a 7mm Rem Mag.