Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters ELMER KEITHS 280 OKH RIFLE - SEEKING INFO

John, I was mulling over the same idea as you yesterday about flash tubes and such. Keith claimed 2800 fps with a 180 grain bullet in the .285 OKH standard load and 3200 fps with the duplex load..sounds a little optimistic to me, but that's what Rifles for Large Game states. He also wrote ( I'm going from memory here ) that the .50 BMG went 202 fps faster with a duplex load over a standard load.

Emailed Buckstix some pix, one of which I think might be his rifle. Fingers crossed.

Yup, Bandukwallah nailed it. Close, but not quite there. Sorry for the false alarm.

But I DID find a cool article from J Bushnell Smith on the All-Around Rifle. Remember Smith; he was a commerical loader who was a good buddy of Jerry Gebby, of .22-250 Varminter fame. Smith eventually blew himself and his basement loading room off the planet ... they figger he had a round pop off and it fired into a keg of powder.


Just for kicks and giggles, I carefully searched my 1935 Samworth copy of Big Game Rifles and Cartridges. Lots of Dubiel stuff, but no .280 OKH mentioned. Dang it!!!

By the way, I remember buying the Samworth for $1.00 from Cameron's Used Book Store in downtown Portland about 1952 or 1953.

God Bless,

Steve

Well Buckstix emailed me and said close but no cigar. Maybe he'll post my pic anyway.

I'm in my 400 Whelen stage, largely based on that Samworth book (which Elmer was NOT happy about).

A friend borrowed my "Big Game Hunting", which was published later.

I'll have to check it on the 280 OKH.

His use of it had to be between WWII and the fifties, or at least before Warren Page wrote about belted 7mm's.

They had quite a few cartridges of OKH fame that Elmer wrote about, but never seemed to use on game, like the 423.

I am still plowing through my Keith stuff. Didn't find any reference to the .280 OKH in either BIG GAME RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES or KEITH'S RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME, but did run across the same photo of Lorraine and the pronghorn Stevie Dogzapper posted in HELL, I WAS THERE! (I knew I'd seen it before.) The caption says the rifle is a .280 Dubiel confirming what's already been deduced from the photo.

However, a few pages further on there's a photo of Keith with a pronghorn with what DOES like like Buckstix's rifle, including the cut-out in the front of of the magazine port and what appears to be an ebony forend tip. The stock is also the right shape. The scope is different, but scopes can be changed, though the rifle with Keith has a front sight--and the caption also identifies it as a .280 Dubiel.

There are several pages on the OKH cartridges in KEITH'S RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME, but no mention of a .280 OKH. Another possibility I though of is that that Buckstix's rifle IS a .280 Dubiel, but was made by Charlie O'Neil when he and Don Hopkins and Keith were essentially in the rifle-building business together.

The 280 Dubiel isn't a belted mag case. Its basically a 280 Rem, as is the 285 OKH (per Handloaders manual of cartridge conversions), but like the 333/334 OKH, there are/were full length belted and even "short belt" versions with monikers identical, except the "belted" tags at the end.

Not to get off subject, but what are the odds of a fellow member, like mr.buckstix, asking "Does anyone have a November 1934 issue of the American Rifleman?"

Where else in the world could a fellow member almost instantly access that information, that 78 year old information, in an amazing 22 minutes???

By the way, I have a full collection of Rifleman mags and I have them wonderfully organized, so if any of you ever need historical info, just holler.

Another small fact; my first four deer I whopped a Model 94 .30-30, which (amazingly) I still own. And, being a kid, I ceremoniously carved four notches in the buttstock.

When I was fourteen, the NRA Convention was here in Portland and I skipped school every day. It was OK with my Mom & Dad, but not OK with Cleveland High School, but I went anyway.

That is where I met Elmer Keith for the first time. We'd been writing back and forth for maybe five years and my Mom helped me write my letters and fully comprehend what he wrote back. Indeed, Elmer's letters looked like the he'd "Written on a Big Chief tablet with a carpenter's pencil."

I'll never forget. Elmer was talking to a man, a big man. And I was standing maybe four feet back of the big man ... for maybe ten minutes. Elmer glanced to the side, winked at me (he'd only seen my in the few b&w photos I'd sent him) and told the big man, "Excuse me, I have a very special friend to talk with and this will take a while."

He walked up to me, squatted down and said softly, "Steve Timm, never forget that you are my friend and when you are my friend, you are my friend FOREVER."

We went to lunch (he paid ) and during that afternoon he introduced his "Special Friend" (that would be me) to Parker Ackley and August Pachmyr and goodness knows how many gun industry giants. And when my Dad came to pick me up at 5:00PM or so, Elmer and PO walked me to the curb and introduced themselves.

My Dad was stunned.

Our correspondence continued for many years. We talked about hunting and killing and the difference between them. We talked about the .285 OKH and I killed deer number 5 through 40 or so with a lovely .285 that I scrimped and saved for.

He loved my trip to the Yukon in 1978 and I don't know who was happier with my 44-inch dall ram, Elmer or me. I DO remember kneeling on the top of that windy ridge, beside that fifteen year old ram, and praying to God ... thanks for this fabulous ram and thanks for an especial friend, a friend named Elmer Keith.

As he published books, he always sent me a copy. Each had a wonderful message in that broken handwriting. And in some, he made notations in the margins ... wonderful comments.

By the way, the Elmer Keith vs Jack O'Connor thing is a little overblown. I have no idea (nor do I care even a little bit) what Jack O'connor thought of Elmer. Elmer considered Jack to be a "shooter" and that was it.

And, frankly, I have never saw the Magic that others saw in Jack O'Connor's words. Way later, my PhD editor fella was telling me how great O'Connor was and he even sent me a bunch of books ... again, I just didn't see it.

But Elmer's words? I hung on each and every word because he was a hunter, he was a man of the earth, he respected each and every game animal ... and that made all the difference.

Oh, one last comment: When Karen and I were on our honeymoon, I took my bride to Salmon, Idaho. I wanted Karen to meet Elmer Keith and Lorraine. They approved and they both hugged both of us.

Yeah, a very special man ... a man named Elmer Keith.

God Bless All of You and May God Bless America,

Steve

WOW, what a great story Steve. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I read alot and sometimes even remember it,depends on who wrote it. In one of Elmer's books he explained that he and o'neil and hopkins never really duplexed anything. In the 30's they developed the extended flash tube to ignite the charge from the front to develope higher velocity. They understood immediately the importance of this in military applications (artillery rds etc.) They did not wish to give this tech strategic advantage to the Germans so they explained it as "duplexing". Elmer later stated he knew they did the right thing but allways regretted not being able to explain the truth period. Magnum Man

If Elmer Keith had worked in artillery he could have been the Gerald Bull of his era.

Hello HawkI,

The 280 Dubiel IS a belted Magnum case. Here is a picture of one identified from International Ammunition Association. A 300 H&H Mag necked to 280 (.288) with no other changes. Several other photos also show belted 280 Dubiel cartridges with an original Dubiel letterhead.



I think Mule Deer is correct in the assumption that my 280 OKH rifle IS a .280 Dubiel, but was made by Charlie O'Neil when he and Don Hopkins and Keith were essentially in the rifle-building business together.

Ultimately this may boil down to Who-coppied-Who because I know that Elmer Keith was friends with John Dubiel, and John made reamers and rifles for Elmer.

Dave93 did send some pictures ... and ... "close, but no cigar. I'll bet with all the help I'm getting, someone will find a picture of my rifle somwhere, albeit 280 OKH or 280 Dubiel.

My mistake.

After looking again, all references in Big Game Rifles and Cartridges, plus HMoCC, do show the 276 and 280 Dubiel "Magnums" were made on belted cases.
The cases are somewhat shorter than full length HH dimensions (it says 275 HH brass for the 276 Magnum.

It sounds like you found your answer: Its a 280 Dubiel Magnum rifle made during the OKH, post-war period.

Hey dogzapper,

I'd gladly trade you this rifle for those Elmer Keith memories if I could have them. You are truly Blessed!

You may be right, the 280 O.K.H. may be Elmer's version of a 280 Dubiel.

I'll bet someplace there is a picture to be found of my rifle.

Also, if anyone out there owns a 280 Dubiel I'd love to swap a fired case for comparison.

In Guns and Ammo, June 1977, Elmer mentions the OKH cartridge lineage, but makes no mention of a 280 OKH.

He does go on to say he sold his .280 Dubiel and used the 285 OKH, based on the '06 case, but using their threaded rod charge tube.

What is Steve talking about, anyway?



Mine is from 1936....

Dogzapper,
That is a wonderful story. Its exactly the way that I imagined Elmer to be - an exemplary friend. Its interesting that he introduced you to PO Ackley, since he and PO tried to kill each other when they were at Ogden Arsenal. They must have smoked the peace pipe at some point .

I don't think it was post-war period. The WTCC .288 bullets and the H&H brass that came with the rifle had a Railway Express label and the top of crate lid. It was addressed to Elmer Keith, North Fork, Idaho. The crate came from ''C.M. O'Neil, Hopkins, Minn.''.

The North Fork Idaho address is the location of Keith's ranch in the the 1930s and early 1940s on the North Fork of the Salmon River near Salmon, Idaho. In the late 1940s both Elmer and his wife Lorraine moved into the town of Salmon, so the rifle corresponds to the years prior to WWII not after.

The perfect candidate for some Talley LWs and a McSwirly...

But seriously, that's cool! Always thought a 7mm-300 H&H would be neat.

You Sir, are quite correct.This really blew me away,and not only that but folks going out of their way to help another member out!!!!Quite cool in my books!!!!