The "best reloading investment" got my attention. Given the number of times I read about "velocity" being a big deal, I was surprised so few people mentioned a clock as a good reloading expenditure. So...
I have always loaded for group, used a ladder technique while loading at the rifle range. Yet I wonder if I could save some time if I got a basic chronometer so I could track speed changes and deviations, know when I'm getting "on the cam" for various powders.
Your thoughts, kids? Thanks.

I consider a chronograph a basic necessity for safe and informed reloading.

Not having one is like driving your car without a speedometer. You can do it, but why?

Absolutely. I rented a chrono a couple of times before I bought mine. I decided that it wouldn't take too many rentals to equal the price to buy one. That was 1981.

You can take all the manuals and compare and 'average' what they say BUT you never know how your barrel does, NOR the lot of 'primers' and 'powders' run w/o a chrono. You literally are shooting in the dark w/o a chrono. Many stories have been told here by different posters about people who believed their load was cooking and then got MAD to find out they were actually slow.

Now if a fellow is hunting woods or other short range situations, then speed isn't that important. If you're hunting open territory much at all, you need to know your velocities. YES, you can do a LOT of shooting at various ranges and 'figure out' your trajectory and then "extrapolate" the approximate velocity of your rifle/load.

You can SAVE time & money in components by simply using a chrono FIRST.

Jerry

Seems to me that a chronograph is almost a necessity if you want to have a good indicator of the pressure of your load in your rifle. Velocity is generally proportional to pressure and the velocity from a chronograph is a far better indicator of pressure than "traditional" signs like hard bolt lift, loose primer pockets, cratered or flattened primers etc. since these things often don't show up until pressures are in excess of 70K PSI. No doubt you can develop loads that work fine for hunting without one but I feel that by using a chronograph I have a much better idea if my load is at a safe pressure as I approach a maximum load (which often shoots better). For about $100 a basic chronograph is a bargain.

I don't know. . I have one but find that i don't use it much. On the other hand I See them well under $100 on eBay all the time.

I like my chronograph. Have had one for 10 years or so. Very useful.

But like you, I loaded for accuracy, and that worked just fine on field and range, for decades. Accurate, game taking and match-winning loads without the chronograph.

But... I like my chronograph and have found it useful.

Guy

I'm in the necessity camp, but I suppose one could get away without one for short distance work, using published data.

I won't work up loads without one anymore. There has been a few times lately that maximum book velocity came before maximum book load.

The speedometer analogy is a good one. Without a working speedometer, or chronograph sooner or later you'll get into trouble. Unless you drive like grandma or only load at minimum levels. I'm not one to hot rod my loads, but if I own a 30-06 I don't want 300 Savage equivalent loads either. There is absolutely no reason not to be able to achieve excellent accuracy and at least match factory velocity levels. It depends on the cartridge, 30-06 and some others are loaded very conservatively in factory form and those speeds can easily and safely be beaten. Other more modern cartridges can be matched for speed, but rarely beaten. But I'd not start approaching top end loads without a chronograph. I've seen examples of over pressure while still well under the book max load. With a chronograph I know when I'm getting close without going over.

I have 2 chronographs, and 2 bore scopes and lot of other toys and accessories I find useful. Agreed that every reloader should have easy access to a chronograph. I'd expect most everybody in Montana to have some access to a friend's chronograph if not one of their own.

I don't think a chronograph is any advantage when doing an Audette ladder test. I certainly don't think a chronograph would save any time. Still have to fire the groups. Wind flags and a good rest will help when firing the groups and making sense of the results.

Part of the problem is that minimizing velocity spread is a good thing but minimizing velocity spread is only loosely correlated with group size at reasonable ranges.

At extreme ranges the correlation is better.

If the point of a particular Audette Ladder Test is to find a load that is insensitive to small variations in charge weight so as to allow more variation in dumping powder then I'd put the money into an automated dispensing system that keeps charge weights close to nominal regardless of powder. That may well save time when combined with using a chronometer for a pressure and velocity series. Doing it that way is getting away from an Audette Ladder Test entirely. If that gets to be too quick and easy get a BOSS or other muzzle tuner and go back to testing.

Agreed that a chronograph will save a lot of time figuring drop at extreme ranges and other such but that's a different branch of knowledge.

All right, that's what I was hoping for.
Chronos aren't expensive like they were when I started, and they're getting compact and convenient compared to the first monstrosities I saw hardcore shootniks use.
I could care less if my loads are "fast," I just want a little bit more "read" and a few more hints as to whether I'm in the ballpark. For example, I have a BR and with the small primers and tight chamber, it does not do any of the usual "signs" except bolt lift.
Laddering has served me pretty well over the years, I'm amazed more people don't do it, but I think I'm ready for another layer of data. Thanks to you all for your commentary and advice.

Pajamaboi loses EXPENSIVE in Georgia -- love it.

Essentially the cheapest source of real information available. If one get above norm velocities, there's probably a reason.

I'll add one thing that wouldn't be easy to solve without a chrono. Differences in powder lots.

I had to bump up a max load of H4350 by 7/10 tenths of a grain, with a new can of powder, to achieve the same accuracy and velocity. I would have been reluctant to experiment with a higher charge weight without the chrono.

I'll add two things I have found my croney useful for:

1. A lot of factory loads don't live up to the advertised speeds.

2. They are most handy when working up loads for notoriously under loaded cartridges such as the 7x57 and
8x57 as the data is all over the place and often lacking.

There is no good reason NOT to own a chronograph.

One of the best explanations of chronographs I've read:

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ChronographChapter.pdf

Dave Skinner: "Chrono yes or no"?
Definitely yes.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Yes

Many years ago, in my pre-chrono days, I inherited my Dad's 30-06. I worked up some 'book' loads that were very accurate and killed elk and deer very well.

Then I bought the chrono. With the published book load, I was getting 2,550fps with a 180gr Barnes. I've increased the powder charge by about 2grs over book in order to get the speeds I'm supposed to.

So, yes to a chrono.

k22 just to ask are they anymore accurate and do you note much difference when shooting deer and elk?

Bit like wanking in the dark, probably feels good but there is no guarantee it that it really is you doing it

IMHO you are wrong. I'd take the audette knowledge and no chrono any day rather than the other way.

It helps to be in the sweet spot, and I STILL strive for accurate powder charges in the middle of that spot....

HOW a chrono can figure drop is beyond me. They haven't figured out how to gauge accuracy either...

I own a 35P for years. I use it from time to time, checking MV to see where I am in relation to max, but that means I rarely use it.

Will be soon, trying to get to 1200 fps in a pistol load, but once I know where the charges lead me, I'll likely never use it again on that particular caliber...

Yep, do they kill better? LOL

Dave, I do what I call 'ladder' tests of velocity when I'm working up a new load or for a NEW rifle. I always start low and load UP to what I 'expect' to be max >>>then I load a couple/three more IN CASE my data is off. It's NO problem to pull bullets of rounds that are 'above' where I stop.

EACH step up has 2-3 rounds ready to check, first for ANY sign of pressure, then to compare velocity. It's always best to STOP in the bracket velocity known for the cartridge.

Some graph while shooting groups. If it works great, I always thot it too complicated for me and my set up.

Good Luck

Jerry

It cannot do it, but what you can do is chronograph at two known distances to get a true BC on the bullet you are using.

That will help make computer predicted drops much more accurate if the published BC is not representative of the true BC.

I know I don't I'd have to tell you that the best way is shoot and see what your drops are....(grin)

I consider one to be essential, without one you're just guessing what's going on with your loads.

I use to use one a lot but haven't for many years. I generally use Barnes bullets and their data at near max, play with bullet seating a bit tip and get all I need to hunt with. With my handguns I load my big bores moderately and my smaller bores a bit under book (usually Hodgdon) max and I am good to go as well. I do not partake in the long range stuff.

I don't use mine all the time but I do like to know where my loads are when compared to book loads or my previous loads.

It's also handy for loading actual velocity in the ballistic app.

I chronograph any load with which I intend to hunt--just for my own peace of mind.

Chrono for me, every time I'm developing a load.

Dave,

If you want to track velocity deviations, the most common, inexpensive light-screen chronographs don't cut it. They'll usually show an average velocity very similar to more expensive models, but the individual velocities of each round won't be very meaningful for figuring deviations. If you just want to know the average muzzle velocity of several rounds the cheap ones work fine, but their isn't enough space between the screens for valid deviation calculations.

What did we do before chronos? Ignorance is, or was, bliss, I guess. We trusted what was written in a manual or on a box of ammunition. The manufacturer would know, right? And we happily took those factory loads, or our reloads, into the field and harvested game. We killed game for years. And then some more years. And still more. All without the comfort of a chrono.



But then, chronos started coming down in price, and slowly, we began to buy them. And what was written in our reloading manuals or on a box of ammunition wasn't always true.

What did that mean? There were a lot of possibilities.

Our readings came from our own gun and chronograph, not the ammunition/powder company's equipment.
Companies used their own rifles or a universal receiver. Often, they were a different barrel length than our own rifle.
They used different cases, and primers, or lots of powder.
Even different bullets of the same weight.

Or it meant that our chrono couldn't accurately determine velocities!



But what did that mean?

If your favourite 180 gr. 30-06 load listed at 2700 fps at the muzzle, but chronoed at 2550 or 2600 fps, do you demand your money back? Or, if you're a reloader, stuff more powder in, to bring it to 2700fps? No! And especially NO, if you've been using that load for years and taking game. Because, regardless of the velocity displayed on the unit, the load worked.



So what does that mean?

It means having a chrono is not a requirement for reloaders or anyone else. They are a fun to have toy, unless you are in the business of having to know. And of course, if you have to know, you buy an Oehler!

Thanks again for the brain waves, gang.
MD, I'm not sure if I really will need SD calculations for my needs, especially now as the shakes are a factor, but it seems like a hun or two to keep me safely away from the Stupid Zone isn't a bad investment. It will be kind of like how I used to use mileposts, second hand, and the tachometer to tell my speed when I was too poor to buy a speedo cable. Or, if both were broken -- I still knew how fast I was going in each gear.

I had an Oehler 35P. It was the worst chrono experience I have ever had. My current chrono, Magneto Speed, is the best I've used to date.

NO ONE can have my O 33 ! ! !

Jerry

Reloader28,

Interesting. I have half-a-dozen chronographs, but my Oehler 35P is the one used when I absolutely have to know exactly what's going on. As far as I know, the same is still true of Bryan Litz, and I have yet to visit a professional ballistics lab that doesn't use an Oehler.

One of my others is a Magnetospeed, and while it provides very good information, I much prefer the ability to shoot groups and chronograph at the same time. Dirtfarmer and annother friend use stands for theirs, which I might eventually do, but since I mostly chronograph on a private range there's no particular advantage to the Magnetospeed over my 35P.

I view my chronograph almost as a novelty anymore. It gathers so much dust I ought to sell it. I don't skate on the ragged edge of performance anymore (ie: I'm happy with 1800fps cast bullet loads in my '06's for target shooting, and I load 40gr. 4895/165 bullet for hunting, when I actually hunt with an '06), and SD, ES, FPS, and erectile dysfunction don't concern me either. 90% of my shooting is at 100yards on paper, and truthfully about the only times I drag the chronograph out is when I think I might talk about a rifle/load where someone will be sure to ask what velocity that load is getting. A simple day at the range necessitates a trunk full of gadgetry as it is without having to throw a chrono, sky screens, and tripod in there too- it takes up as much space as a case of whiskey (which is a much better arbiter of velocity for internet velocity claims).

When I experiment, I swear 200 lb of gear gets loaded into my truck. Chronos (2, in case one malfunctions), a large range bag, spotting scope, a box with my gunsmithing tools, a separate cleaning kit and rifles.

It's a royal pain. So much nicer to throw a box of ammunition on the front seat with a rifle and go make some noise.

Apparently folks view chronographs in different ways. I see one as the single best way for reloaders to stay out of trouble. Dr. Howell described handloading as akin to riding a bicycle close to the edge of the Grand Canyon at night. You can sort of know you're getting close to going over the edge but you don't really know where that edge is. A chronograph sheds much better light on where that edge might be.

Velocity and pressure are not a 1:1 correspondence but they are very closely related provided one is using a powder reasonable for the task. It is not exact in that X fps = Y psi, but if used properly with some common sense velocity readings can act as a series of warning lights to tell you that pressures are green, yellow, amber or bright red with a pretty large degree of confidence. Used in conjunction with good pressure tested data a chronograph is a better indicator of what's going on in the combustion chamber than all of the "pressure signs" ever dreamed up. Of course, if the rifle flies into a thousand pieces, that's a pretty reliable pressure sign....

Without going into a long treatise of how to use one to best advantage, I can think of two times in particular when a chrono was the only thing telling me something was definitely wrong.

1. Worked up a good load in a .270 and .300 WM with RL-22, velocities were as expected for the charge weights used - which were not absolute max. After finishing up an 8 pound keg I bought another keg from a different lot. Using the exact same charge weight velocities were 200 fps faster - about 3300 for a 130 grain bullet in the .270. I have no idea what actual pressures were except that they were "really high". I had to back off several grains with that lot of powder to get back down to a reasonable velocity for the cartridges.

2. Just recently I had a .243 AI whose accuracy was going south. I figured after 2300-2400 rounds that barrel was getting toasted. I chrono'ed a fireforming load which should have been a mild load in a standard .243 and velocities were almost 250 fps above what they should have been. Again, I have no idea what the actual psi was, just that it was way beyond a safe working maximum. A tight patch and brush down the barrel found a very tight spot indicating a major buildup of copper just ahead of the chamber. After cleaning thoroughly velocities dropped back down to normal and accuracy returned to normal as well. Without a chronograph I never would have known that pressures were slowly creeping toward a KB. Link to original thread about this


If someone wants to read a lot into SD's, maximum spreads and stuff that's fine, too. They can give you data beyond what's on the target to find an optimum powder and load, but the single biggest benefit to me is simply knowing the actual velocity in any particular rifle in relation to what should be expected and telling me with a fair degree of confidence that my load is Safe, Getting Close to Unsafe, or Whoa!

Even though it wasn't one of the items I mentioned when I first started the reloading investments thread, later on when someone mentioned their Magnetospeed I definitely agreed with it being an important tool.

Granted, I don't use it all the time. More so with some rifles/cartridges than others. But pretty much every load I am serious about gets chronographed at some point.

I used it just last night on a new 223 load. Rifle is an 18" Encore in 223, using the excellent Sierra 1365 and Benchmark. I loaded up a ladder and shot it when I got off work. Took the results home and studied it a bit, used that data to roughly identify low and high node. Went to the bench and loaded 3 rounds of each. Since my range is only 2 miles from my house on private land, I ran back over there and popped the rounds of real quick to see where in the ballpark I was. Both fell right in track with where I thought they should be and that helped give me confidence I was looking in the right areas to continue my accuracy testing.

One of the reasons I load is to produce ammunition that does exactly what I want it to do. Travelling at the proper velocity is one of the parameters I look for since impact velocity has such a great effect on terminal ballistics. It seems most folks want to know the bullet speed for external ballistic drop charts, but then neglect terminal effects. But both together form the big picture. For target shooting terminal is irrelevant. But pretty much all my rifles are called upon to hunt on occasion, even the ones I do LR and target shooting with.

There may be more accurate chronographs than the Magnetospeed. But especially in the wind we have around here I will NEVER go back to a chrono with skyscreens again. They are such a PITA. Tricky setup, missed shots, wind blowing the screens over, lots of gear. The Magnetospeed is so simple, so easy compared to that. At some point the Lab Radar could be a viable option for me as well. It sure would be nice to be able to grab the speed data while I was shooting ladders. But right now it is out of my price range.


And EDIT to add, that was an excellent post Jim. That is exactly why I use one a fair amount. Primers, bolt lift, that kind of thing has always been kind of like reading tea leaves to me. Actual velocities gives me one more tool for me to use to make sure I am staying safe.

Jim in Idaho posted the following above.

"1. Worked up a good load in a .270 and .300 WM with RL-22, velocities were as expected for the charge weights used - which were not absolute max. After finishing up an 8 pound keg I bought another keg from a different lot. Using the exact same charge weight velocities were 200 fps faster - about 3300 for a 130 grain bullet in the .270. I have no idea what actual pressures were except that they were "really high". I had to back off several grains with that lot of powder to get back down to a reasonable velocity for the cartridges."

Jim I had the EXACT same thing happen to me back in the 80s. I was using H 4831 <before changes had begun to show up > I had been shooting 62 grs under 130s for a LONG time. WELL, well with ONE new lot my velocity jumped + fps. - the bolt was STIFF, I didn't have to beat on it but it took a lot of effort to lift.

I KEPT that lb - lot # 9 1 81. I plan to xperiment with it and REDUCE the charge to get back to 3100 fps, but haven't done it yet.

At the opposite of the end of spectrum. I had a LOT of a popular/respected BRAND of brass, also for 270. I LOST 200 fps in that BRASS alone.

W/O a chrono I'd have never known or figured out what the problems were.

Jerry

JTP posted the following above.

"There may be more accurate chronographs than the Magnetospeed. But especially in the wind we have around here I will NEVER go back to a chrono with skyscreens again. They are such a PITA. Tricky setup, missed shots, wind blowing the screens over, lots of gear."


JT - I have an Oehler 33, I have never had ANY of the problems you listed.

1 thing, I mounted my skyscreens PERMANENTLY in a 2X4 at exactly 5' c-c. I then put that 2x4 on a trash can, box or table. I have had so few missed shots as to say NONE.

edit to add:
<This is my 2nd board - 2x6, the skyscreen 3 were too big for the 2x4 w/o weakening it too much.>

Photo for demo purposes only.


The 33 is no longer produced but IF I could ,I get another when I need it.

Jerry

This is a key point. Short of having a strain gauge, the single best thing you can do to insure your loads are within max pressure is to
a) only use load data that includes pressure (for common bottleneck cartridges and powders this can be from Quick Load)
and
b) load to the listed velocity, not the listed charge weight

The relationship between pressure, velocity and energy is fairly simple (energy is the integral of the pressure curve * bullet cross section taken over the barrel length). Velocity is by far the easiest of the three to measure directly with modern equipment. The relationship between those 3 and charge weight is quite variable and heavily influenced by factors like chamber dimensions, primer brisance and powder lot variations that most reloaders have no visibility into.

I think you want bullet cross sectional area rather than diameter.

jwall,

I am sure the Oehler 33 is a much better unit than anything with screens I have ever had. I have had 2 Chronys and a Pact and that probably accounts for the missed shots I was getting. The Pact, especially, was horrible about it.

To me it was always so much of a PITA getting the rifle set up, the screens the right height and angle, and everything lined up with the target. Look through the rifle, go move screens. Look through the rifle, go move screens. It would take me 10 minutes just to get everything out and set up just right, then pull it all back down again when I was done. Maybe it was because the Pact was so bad about missing shots and having to have everything lined up just perfect that soured me on it, IDK. For an extended session when I had plenty of time it wasn't as much of a big deal. But I do a lot of my testing during lunch break at work where my time is pretty limited. It takes me about a minute or so to strap the Magnetospeed on, and I never miss any shots with it. It is just a really fast, hassel-free deal for me that way. I can carry the entire setup in one hand.

Plus I can just carry the Magnetospeed in my pack, and if I am out shooting some LR steel or something and need to check some velocities real quick it just takes a minute or two to do that as well.

Different strokes for different folks.

Yes, my mistake. I fixed it. Good thing we have a mathman around to check that sort of thing

I likewise find the magnetospeed to be great. The very first thing I do with any new load after running it in Quick Load is make a ladder of 2-3 rounds per charge weight up a couple steps past max, and run it up until I hit max velocity without worrying about accuracy. Then I measure the fired cases capacity and take that and the velocity data back to make sure Quick Load is calibrated right.

Well, I got by without one for probably 25 years of reloading...got one now and it's fun to know how fast my bullets are going, but I don't need one. I'm just not that scientific about it. I don't shoot anything past about 400 yards and I don't calculate drop and such, I shoot at distances and see what it is.

I was able to get an accurate, fast load, but I did not notice any better kills at 2,700fps vs 2,550fps. I used Barnes 180gr X and XLC's.

Some time ago, I switched to 168gr TSX at almost 2,900fps in the 30-06, and it kills well also.

JTP -

Yes there are different things appropriate for our situations. Yours works for you and that's good.

I OTOH don't need the quick, easy set up that you do. Glad it works for you.

If it ain't broke......


Jerry

IMO it's not 'better killing', higher speed makes hits at longer range easier. F T, if you get my drift.
That's not important in short range hunting.

Jerry

It is amazing how the 'net has allowed minutia to matter. I guess it does allow a gun rag article.

Judging bullet performance on 2-3 shots per year at big game animals is sketchy, sometimes the bullet works great and other times, not so much.

I hunt coyotes extensively, so I get to see 'on-game' bullet performance numerous times in a day. Regarding bullet speed and killing animals, I will say that the same bullet, say a 55gr Btip, shot out of my 222RemMag at 3,400+fps, vs shot out of my son's 223WSSM at 3,800+fps, kills 'better' at the higher velocity, at any range.

Most of the time, when shot from my 222remmag, coyotes get stiff and tip over perhaps with a tail flag, with the 223WSSM, they just go down without any other movement.

So, does a faster kill equate to a 'better' kill?

k22h


Direct to you last ?, IMO the faster kill is a better kill.


I've been on the run today so I'll be brief right now.

IMO it's the bullet's terminal performance. From coyotes, which I've shot some and W T deer, AND other posters here,

Speed not only makes the bullets hit harder----but open up faster. I understand the monos operate differently but even they produce quick kills at HI speed. There's more involved than this, such as larger dia. bullets even at moderate speed seem to KNOCK game off their feet.

I'm out of time now, maybe others will chime in on the different facets.

Jerry

Chronographs are not necessary.

Just like scales are not necessary.

Very effective hunting loads can be assembled with simple tools, including a volumetric (think scoop) powder measure.

Most of us want to be more precision but, really, within a couple of hundred yards, a Lee Loader will do everything a deer hunter needs. That's right, NEEDS, perhaps not WANTS.

Heck, there are some loads you can simply "fill to the top and seat the bullet".

Yeah Buford, there's nothing like loading like its 1960.

A decent chrono can be had NOW for +/- $100.00



Jerry

True but not everyone who shoots.....is a deer hunter who limits his shots to a couple hundred yards.

fwiw,
I do... Or rather I have in years past, however, my Oehler 35P was such an onerous PITA to setup that it never got used. In short I just sold it for about half of what it was worth and I am going to wait to see if LabRadar or the Canadian kid who came up with the www.autotrickler.com has also come up with a super simple two box chronograph. That said, at this point, I am definitely from Missouri, and they are going to have to show me which, why, and how... Magnetto does not tolerate suppressor heat all that well though you have to love the portability component. Hoping they will come out with a LabRadar V.2 that addresses .22 caliber and smaller projectiles...

Same Canadian has come up with a Chrono that is supposed to be super accurate. It can't get much simpler short of wet ground...
http://www.autotrickler.com/twoboxchrono.html

Regards, Matt.

I have never fired a bullet down range in decades unless over an Oehler 35P at the same time.
Actually went to the range last week and discovered I left the Oehler box at home, so turned around and called it quits.
I usually leave it in the Ram Box but changed cars with the wife. Bad move.

The ad companies thank you.

---



Chronographs are a nice to have option. Like using a scope mounted rifle is an option. Like using a bipod, or an expensive rifle rest is an option. Like having a spotting scope is an option. Like taking lunch to the range is an option. Like using copper or bonded bullets is an option.

All these things are called "optional". That means you don't need them to go to the range. I'm genuinely surprised some of you have not suggested that an Internet connection is required, so you can show friends or relatives what you're doing. Tweet or Facebook friends from the firing line. Or perhaps you're old school and just video your shoots for broadcast later. Maybe use your cellphone.

Put another way, going to the range does not mean that you have to carry spotting scopes, rifle scopes, chronographs, monotonous bullets, bipods or food. They might be nice to have, but are not necessities. You don't even need a firearm when going to the range. You may be an interested spectator, judge or range officer.

The only absolute at a range is eye and ear protection - unless you're completely deaf or blind, or wish to be.

New powders like RL 26, RL 17 do not show traditional pressure signs till you are way over, chronographs keep me in the safe zone. Found mistakes before I caused any damage to me or others will continue using them.

RL 26 was introduced before it had much reloading info. on it going without a chrono. you are asking for trouble. IMHO

And what are you using as a source for your powder information? I hope you are using a reference and not just pouring powder into a case until it shows signs of high pressure.

yada yada yada.
Oh Really Mr.Steve - Don't you NEED a firearm ?


Serious, Discriminating Rifle Loonys use a 'speed meter'.

"I don't always use a chrono......
...........but when I do, it's an Oehler !!


Jerry

You're a fool, Jerry.

If you have something constructive to say, then say it. No need to act like a jackass.

Funny, that's what I was thinking as I read your post.

I see I am going to have to spell it our for you. You really don't like to think on your own do you?

No, you don't need a firearm because you could be out there watching, umpiring (judging) in competition or acting as a range officer. In these cases, you do not have a firearm, but will be at the range. Others will have theirs. It's obvious that you have never mentored anyone either. You could not have shown anyone who bought a chrono at their local gun shop and wanted to learn how to use it. Mentors help others learn. Helping them learn about their chrono, using their rifle.




You did not read everyone's response in this thread. You also missed Dave Skinner's original post. He doesn't have one and wonders if it is worth the bother. Look in the mirror and ask yourself what the reason might for your lapses of courtesy and common sense.

I'm a fool, too, I liked his post.

I thought Canadians were supposed to be polite.





P

I thought everyone was supposed to be polite.

True but Canadians unfailingly so. Its just how they are.

Is that racist?

Yeah I agree, ol Jerry comes up with some real nonsense, I particularly liked his post about guns needing pressure point bedding because Remington can't screw a barrel in tight enough to stop it flopping around.

I used a chronograph for the very first time last week. My wife and little boy were nice enough to give it to me for a Christmas present. It was easier to set-up and use than I thought and I was surprised by the results. I was shooting factory ammo in my 204 Ruger, 221 Fireball, and 17 Remington. For example, I was shooting Fiocchi 32 and 40 grain V-max. The 32's should have been getting 4,125 fps while I managed 3,925 for an average. The 40's should be getting 3700 fps and I averaged 3789 fps. In my 17 Remington I tried the Remington 25 grain HP and the Nosler 20 grain HP. The Nosler showed I should be getting 4200 fps and I averaged 4226 fps. The Remington specs said 4040 fps, but I struggled to get 3859 fps and it was horribly inconsistent. Velocity spread was 133 fps and my groups were not great. Lots of vertical spread which I would have probably blamed on my shooting technique had I not been using the chronograph. In my 221 Fireball, both Nosler loads averaged just over 3200 fps with the 40 grainers as they should and I had some old Remington 50 grain PSP which clocked at 2939 fps. I wish I had used a chronograph before now.

I've used one for years when working up a new load.

A friend often downplayed the need until I watched him 'splash' a 270 130 gr partition on a little hill country white tail's shoulder. He used my rifle and finished her off.

I happened to have my magnetospeed in the truck and when we got back to camp I had him fire 5 rounds over the MS. Results were that his handloaded 130 gr was running around 2400 fps instead of the 3000 or so it should have. Ran the rest over the MS and results were the same. Seems he found an accurate load and stopped.

He now has a MS and another chrono he got from Fleabay.

He also found an accurate load for his 130's that's much closer to 3000 fps as well.

Essential? No.
Critical? No.
Useful? Yes.
Do I use one? Yes.

I have an old crony that I've used for years and I'm planning to order a Magneto Speed this weekend.

Yes.

If you plan to load towards maximum loads, it becomes a necessity.

Or if you're loading for a wildcat without a lot of data, or if you're using one of the new powders without a lot of data, or.....

An accurate chrono is very handy for certain things.. But, it will tell you one thing, and one thing only. Any additional derived data, learning and knowledge depends on the person applying that one thing.

I've seen/known of a number of "certain kills" on game that did not happen as expected. Can't think of one fundamentally caused by insufficient velocity.

How many of you guys are going to PAY $399.99 to Photobucket to RELAY your pix ? I AIN'T.

Jerry

Guys - Jim's experience and mine are sufficient evidence of the importance of a good chrono.

Jerry

Yep Dave, Chronos are very beneficial and informative. SINCE a decent graph can be had =/- $100.00 Doesn't make sense to NOT use one.
Jerry

+ 1 ... or equal to ... + $100.00.

I have a ProChrono and I'm totally satisfied with it.

For ~25 years I used a Shooting Chrony, this gave ball park velocities, and generally kept loads safe.

The past few years I've used a LabRadar, accuracy claimed to be 0.1%. This combined with QuickLoad assisted me in getting spot on barrel times, safe working pressures, the ability to tune a load to compensate for differing powder lots, throat erosion, plus other variables that effect pressure and therefore barrel time.

Internal and external ballistics are a math problem, to solve, you must start with an accurate velocity or all down stream equations are skewed.

This has really helped with load development and calculating external ballistic charts.

Generally 10 rounds will find a load that is best the rifle is capable of by the above methods.

Well, aside from the personality contretemps, this has been a productive thread. I am now officially "shopping."

I wouldn't reload without one today. I was a reloader for a few years without one and was really guessing at velocity/pressure. I even use it today for checking various brands and styles of .22LR ammo. There IS a difference! But extreme spread IS an important factor in relatively low velocity ammo, either factory or home made. Some factory stuff is so bad in that regard, I NEVER buy factory except that which proves best in .22LR.

And in big bores, such as .45-70 and .458 WM, I've proven to myself that if I can get spreads down to less than 10 fps for 3 to 5 shots consistently, at pressures near max for that rifle, I've got a gem of a load that shoots sub-moa every time at the range when I do my part. And that gives confidence in the field. Here's one example of a 350gr TSX from my CZ550 in .458 Win Mag with a very long action and throat allowing Lott length: (Load taken from Lott data) -- 2746, 2747, 2746, 2749 and 2745. There's NO WAY I could guess that from numbers in a book -- especially when, as mentioned, "their" testing setup has nearly zero relationship to mine! I've written extensively on this in my manuals and blogs. That load would shoot 3 into +/-0.50" at the 100 yard berm unless I was having a bad day.

And, I could give numerous examples from other rifles of the same nature.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I quit using mine....
The load and rifle bullet comes out whatever it comes out....vol is what it is...and used acordnly....

Don't get me wrong it is a usful tool but it can also drive you nuts...
I talked to a guy at the barrel shop one day who was an avid sniper challenge shooter....champion as a matter of fact...he said most affordable croon graphs are not nearly accurate enoug...he uses range and math to calculate real vol....

And I quit reading right there.


Jerry

I see no problem with that. There are some people that think you cannot reload without one, but that's nonsense.

Some of these same people ignore published manufacturer's recommendations, keep adding powder and checking their chronos for unusual velocities. That is part of the method, but absolutely not the only thing you should be doing. And what is the condition of your chamber? What is the condition and size of the throat? Is it new or eroded?

Velocity is the best indicator for most shooters, but there is no guarantee that what you see on the display is correct, or a 100% indicator that the load is safe. Hence the warnings published by every bullet and powder company. Which chrono are you using? Is it reading properly? Chronographs are not created equally. Why are Oehlers so popular? They are expensive. Won't a Shooting Chrony do? Is your chronograph calibrated or checked occasionally? There are other factors as well. Are you adequately skilled at assembling cartridges? What signs are you looking for?

When someone experiments and deviates from published load data, they are going into unknown territory. Doing this takes some skill, and in almost all cases is unnecessary. Relying on chrono readings alone isn't smart. And other tools, like test labs or pressure test equipment, aren't in the hands of many reloaders.

Personally, I respect your decision. You are quite right when you say that the bullet will come out as it comes out. Use the data from the powder or bullet company, be happy, and watch critters fall over.

Blind adherence to published load data can get you into trouble also, don't think that you can chuck all caution to the wind just because you can read a cookbook.

Years ago I compared two loading manuals, Lyman and Nosler, for 7mm rem mag data. The powder I wanted to use had a 7 gr. difference listed max load for the 140 gr. bullet I was using. I started low using a chronograph and quickly figured out that the Lyman data was complete bullchit, I hit the listed max velocity in the Lyman manual 4 grains before their max, which was 3 grains over the max Nosler listed. If I had been following Lyman's data I'd have been seriously overpressure and the least, and probably into the blowing primer territory.

If you have a decent chronograph and you're at all familiar with it then you can pretty quickly tell if it's giving you good data. I can pull out my 6mm BR and shoot one of my 30.8 gr. Varget/105 Amax loads across it and it'll be 2860 +/- 10 fps at 70 degrees. If it isn't then something is wrong, but it hasn't lied so far.

Data from your own rifle is far more reliable than data from a min spec pressure barrel. Sure their velocities are accurate for that barrel, but that doesn't mean much in YOUR barrel. Far too much is made of supposed inaccuracies of chronographs, recent ones are very accurate and I'll trust them before I will some data shot in a pressure barrel 20 years ago with different lots of powder, brass, primers, and bullets.

Loading manuals are a guide, nothing more. Anyone that thinks they're gospel is fooling themselves, even the guys writing them will tell you that. Use a bit of common sense.

I agree with some of what you say. Nothing is 100%.

I did not talk about blind adherence to load data, but I did talk about blind adherence to what is indicated on the chrono display. Specifically, adding powder and watching velocities, thinking that the chrono is all you need to work up a safe load. It is only one of a number of tools and information required.

There have been reloading manuals that have published bad information, but that is the exception, not the norm. More people blow up rifles and suffer injuries because of improper reloading techniques or human error. Bad reloading data published in a powder or bullet company manual is rare.

I do not believe that anyone suggested that load manuals are the final word (gospel), but they are reliable. They test and publish instructions and warnings about working up loads properly. They take their work seriously. If you are unsure of what you are doing, they tell you to get help. No manual or company has ever suggested that their data is inviolate. I believe that reloaders are more likely to err than the techs that test loads.

WRT data from test rifles/universal test barrels, they do not produce the same velocity that your barrel produces, but the loads are safe. And modern test practices include pressure testing.

Most reloaders know that their velocity results will be different from published figures, but there is a caveat here. I know individuals who continued to add powder because their indicated chrono velocities were less than what was published in magazines or manuals. In these cases, relying on chrono figures was dangerous.

So, I will maintain that one does not have to use a chrono. It is a tool reloaders can use in combination with adequate training, a good manual, proper technique and a big dose of common sense.