Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Well, whatta ya know? I guess you do still have to clean them...

When younger I'd clean every rifle after every range session. Then starting a few years ago when we were told that was unnecessary and that more rifles were probably worn out by over cleaning than by shooting I stopped doing that.

For several years now my cleaning routine has been if I couldn't remember the last time I cleaned a barrel, it was probably about time to clean it.

My Model 700 .243 AI had been losing it's accuracy a bit but after 2300-2400 rounds I figured that was par for the course. It wasn't horrible but would put 4 shots into the .8's or .9's, much larger than in its early life. A few days ago I fireformed some new cases with a relatively mild load of 40.0 H4350 and the Sierra 85 HPBT, figuring they should run about 2900 fps. However the chronograph showed they were going 3140 fps, some 240 fps higher. Yikes.

When I got the rifle home a nylon brush pulled through the bore showed a tight or rough spot just ahead of the chamber. So I figured a) there was a huge copper build up there or b) the throat was toast or most likely b contributed to a. So I soaked the bore for several hours in Montana Copper Killer and then scrubbed it good with JB compound.

Went out this morning and the picture below shows the first four rounds of that same fire forming load through the newly very clean barrel. Velocity for four shots was 2956 fps, right in line with where it should be.

What I learned, or relearned:
- While you don't have to clean the barrel after every range session, it's probably a good idea to clean it a bit more often than every 400-500 rounds.
- A good barrel (Pac-Nor in this case) can still shoot pretty good with somewhere close to 2400 rounds through it.
- Fire forming loads are definitely not inaccurate.
- If you want to post bragging groups on the internet, stop at three! Those first three together went into .292", then that fourth all alone out there (which is assuredly my fault), opened it up to .677".

Yep, I've noticed those darn 4 shot groups just "ruin" my 3 shot bragging groups. But, I've also noticed that several 3 shot groups aren't all bragging groups either....
Yeah, I've noticed I can get lazy about cleaning. Since I don't shoot as much as you do, the actions on my guns show "lack of attention" more readily than do my groups.... E

Well, as I've often heard in my neck of the woods, "You missed.......four times!"

I would only add, "very consistently and accurately".

What's a 3 or 4 shot group? Shoot you some 10 shot groups and get back to us..

I'd say, he missed that big square by a mile...

Some times that horizontal stringing can be tough to figure out. Good luck with that.

I will say this Montana copper killer is some of the worse solvent on the market! Wipeout is the only way to go

I use Wipeout and the Gunslick stuff frequently. They are not good for copper. Period.

I wish I could comment on the MCK but I can't. But I will say that just about every 'copper killer" out there isn't worth a $hit.

IME KG12 and M Pro 7 are the only 2 that actually work as advertised. The rest flat out suck. The end....

79S,

Would love to hear why you have that opinion of Copper Killer. I have had great luck with it, though mostly use it only when I want to get copper out quick, rather than waiting long enough for Wipe-Out or the standard Montana X-Treme stuff to work. (Those two seem to take about the same amount of time, which is why I normally let them work overnight.)

Glad to hear the Montana CK works, John.

IME the 2 I mentioned above will remove more copper in 5 minutes than anything else will remove in 5 days. In a nutshell, none of the other stuff actually works worth beans....

2muchgun,

Often I clean rifles while handloading, since my "rifle workbench" is about 20 feet away from my loading bench. I put some solvent in the bore, then when a natural break occurs in the loading I swab out the bore, reapplying solvent if the bore appears to need it in my bore-scope.

With what I'd call a "normal" amount of copper fouling, one application of Copper Killer usually gets it all out within 10-15 minutes of applying, but on rare occasions more is required. I once bought a used .270 that apparently had NEVER been cleaned in its life, and the bore had what I call "geologic fouling," alternating layers of copper and powder crust. A few years ago I would have just scrubbed it all out with JB Compound, but eventually learned that sometimes repeated use of JB made bores foul even quicker. Instead I tried various solvents, and eventually ended up alternating CK with and a powder solvent. None of the other copper solvents on hand (and I have a bunch, thanks to companies sending me samples to try) worked as quickly.

I agree on the JB, JB .

Does that include KG12 and M Pro7? Because they work far and beyond better than anything else I have tried.

I have read good things about the Montana CK from reputable sources. Just haven't tried it.

What I can say, is that many here don't understand that what they think they are removing copper with, really is doing next to no good or no good at all.

Guys try their "copper solvent" and when that doesn't work, they scrub the dogpoop out of their bores with JB, which as you say, isn't really a good thing. When all they really had to do was use a copper solvent that actually does it's job........

Tried KG12 in that geologic barrel and while it removed copper, it didn't do it as quickly as CK. However, the carbon remover I used was KG and it worked great. Have not tried M Pro7.

Yeah, I have seen plenty of bores that have been "cleaned" with plenty of copper inside! One was the bore on a buddy's favorite .270 Weatherby, a Model 70 Classic. He'd been hunting with the rifle for a number of years and suddenly it didn't want to shoot very well anymore, and he was afraid the barrel was shot out. I asked how many times it had been fired; he really didn't know and guessed around 500.

I said it probably wasn't shot out, then asked him if he'd cleaned it. He said yeah, he scrubbed it with Hoppe's No. 9 after every season. I took it home, with some of his handloads,and took a look down the bore with the scope. The throat was OK but it was copper-fouled from one end to the other. Cleaned it down to bare steel and installed Dyna Bore Coat. Took it to the range to cure the DBC and it shot exactly like he said it had before the problem started, with 3-shot groups well under an inch. Returned it to him and explained a few things, and he was ecstatic.

I am going to have to buy some Copper Killer. I have heard nothing but good things about it......

Yep. I went back to Sweets.

KG12 is the best I have ever used.

Sweets is garbage. Probably the most over rated copper remover out there. It does next to nothing...

Trying to post a reply on iPhone and things not working out. But in short I tried several copper removers and wipe out gave me the best results. I did pick some m-pro 7 copper remover to try out

I'm really fond of Pro Shot Copper Remover IV as it removes carbon build up and copper fouling. The first patches comes out blue-black, then progressively turns into a deep blue, and finally clean. It's not super fast acting but, giving it 5-7 minutes between, 6 to 12 patches later it's clean.

I have a bud who lives down the road. He also has a place up in northern Michigan where we hunt and he keeps most of his stuff. Like me, he has a lot of rifles. For 20+ years he has been coming over here and using my bench/stuff to clean them any time he picks up a new, albeit used, rifle.

He is usually pretty good about buying/replacing supplies. One thing he sure manages to go through a LOT of, is copper cleaner. A few pre WW1 rifles he has brought over have been unbelievably fouled. And he would use some sub par copper cleaner, followed by JB.

Between the 2 of us, in 20+ years, we are easily talking around 300 guns. We would buy whatever copper cleaner was available at whatever store. Sweet's, Shooter's Choice, Hoppe's , Butch's, Barnes, etc. are a few I know we have used. I am guessing it was 2009-2010 maybe when we discovered copper remover that actually removed copper. And what a difference it made in guns we thought were clean.

I just checked the cabinet, and you know who seems to have managed to use up the last of the KG-12 on an old Winchester he picked up. . But there is a rather large new bottle of MC#7 and some Outers foam, and some Remington Anniversary kit or somethiing with several bottles/cans of Rem Oil/cleaner. Whatever

So now only copper remover in cabinet is an old bottle of Shooter's Choice that was bought before the last bottle of Barnes CR-10 and KG-12. Time for a new bottle.

If the Montana CK works better than KG-12, it has to be some pretty darn good stuff......