i have only ever used the bucket of water - lit candle way to anneal. now another site they say that doesn`t work they say brass needs to go up to 750 degrees before it is annealed. i have watched it at a ammo factory get annealed and i know dang well that was not 750 degrees either. so what is the temperature or better way to anneal ? or does the candle-water bucket work ,which i think does ?
Mule Deer has written a good bit about this, I believe a whole chapter in one of his books. But I cannot remember which one, and I am away from the house at the moment. He did go deep enough into the science to be comfortable with the method he uses, which I believe is a candle flame and a wet towel. Hopefully he will jump in, or someone else will, who has their books at hand and can tell you where to find it.
There are a few ways to accomplish this. Here is the method I use. It's called salt bath annealing. https://ballisticrecreations.ca/ Prices are CDN, so take off about 30% for USD.
If you have no equipment, this system is less than $200 CDN (approx. $150 USD). Which includes the salt, thermometer, case holder and Lee pot. I have been salt annealing for awhile, and it beats the candle method to bits. It is faster, and much easier on the fingers. Watch the video.
The chapter is in THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK II, and does explain the science--along with using several methods from the old "heat until red and tip over" to candles to several machines, including what is probably the most advanced (and expensive) annealing machine, the AMP.
Any method of annealing brass involves a certain amount of temperature, applied for a certain amount of time. How complicated and precise a handloader wants to get is another question, which I believe the chapter answers. But two things are certain: Heating brass until it glows red is NOT good, and "quenching" is NOT required.
I hold mine in the flame of a propane plumbers torch....with a pair of needle nose players...why burn your finger tips?
the tank I use is a 7 gallon camping propane tank... I put about $10 worth of propane in it about 12 to 15 years ago... I anneal a lot and its no where near half full yet.
223, I hold them into the flame and count to five a regular voice speed... then drop the case into a light galvinized bucket from Wally World many years ago, that ran me a dollar.
when I am done, I just let the brass cool down in the bucket, by placing it in the frig, that sits next to my reload bench.
243 for instance, I hold that in the flame for about 6 seconds...by count.
as said above, not rocket science....guess I'd have to give any credit for info I have followed to Scenar Shooter and from some of his posts...
Originally Posted by Craigster A propane torch. When your fingers get hot, stop. Air cool or quench, whatever floats your boat. It ain't rocket science.
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I hold mine in the flame of a propane plumbers torch....with a pair of needle nose players...why burn your finger tips?
I do one or two using the top method, while counting Mississippi's, and then using a long barrel socket of the appropriate size to hold the brass in a drill, I just count off the Mississippi's without burning my fingers. I guess I should make a list of the different brass that I reload and the times it takes so I don't have to do that every time. But then looking for that list would be time consuming. miles
I use an AMP MkII induction annealer. It has software that you can use to analyse a sacrificial case from a particular brand and batch of brass. This generates a code that you then use for all brass in that batch. It is fast, clean and accurate. It will anneal brass up to .50 cal. Well worth the price IMHO.
Originally Posted by Craigster A propane torch. When your fingers get hot, stop. Air cool or quench, whatever floats your boat. It ain't rocket science.
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I hold mine in the flame of a propane plumbers torch....with a pair of needle nose players...why burn your finger tips?
I do one or two using the top method, while counting Mississippi's, and then using a long barrel socket of the appropriate size to hold the brass in a drill, I just count off the Mississippi's without burning my fingers. I guess I should make a list of the different brass that I reload and the times it takes so I don't have to do that every time. But then looking for that list would be time consuming. miles
I usually do the same thing except I use a metronome app on my phone to do the counting instead of Mississippi’s. I have started using the same salt bath annealing setup as Steve Redgwell. The setup takes longer, but once going can anneal a lot of brass very quickly.
I use an AMP MkII induction annealer. It has software that you can use to analyse a sacrificial case from a particular brand and batch of brass. This generates a code that you then use for all brass in that batch. It is fast, clean and accurate. It will anneal brass up to .50 cal. Well worth the price IMHO.
You would have to do an insane amount of shooting to get the value out of one of those.
I use an AMP MkII induction annealer. It has software that you can use to analyse a sacrificial case from a particular brand and batch of brass. This generates a code that you then use for all brass in that batch. It is fast, clean and accurate. It will anneal brass up to .50 cal. Well worth the price IMHO.
You would have to do an insane amount of shooting to get the value out of one of those.
Eliminating question marks/variables is value enough for some.
Maybe I'm a little OCD but I use a propane torch and Tempilaq. I like to know that the job is done right. The torch and Tempilaq cost about $25. Put the shell in an appropriate size socket chucked in a battery powered drill, heat until the Tempilaq changes color and dump.
I use an AMP MkII induction annealer. It has software that you can use to analyse a sacrificial case from a particular brand and batch of brass. This generates a code that you then use for all brass in that batch. It is fast, clean and accurate. It will anneal brass up to .50 cal. Well worth the price IMHO.
You would have to do an insane amount of shooting to get the value out of one of those.
I do a lot of shooting, I have a good range two minutes drive from my home. But more importantly, I get consistent neck tension and that equates to better accuracy. I need the best accuracy I can get for certain competitive target shooting events. Doesn't hurt for hunting rounds either. I anneal the cases after every firing. The cost of an AMP is not a lot spread over the many years of use it will provide.
Originally Posted by SawDoctor
Eliminating question marks/variables is value enough for some.
Exactly. Gave up on the propane torch a while back because of that reason.
There are a few ways to accomplish this. Here is the method I use. It's called salt bath annealing. https://ballisticrecreations.ca/ Prices are CDN, so take off about 30% for USD.
If you have no equipment, this system is less than $200 CDN (approx. $150 USD). Which includes the salt, thermometer, case holder and Lee pot. I have been salt annealing for awhile, and it beats the candle method to bits. It is faster, and much easier on the fingers. Watch the video.
Salt bath annealing is cheap, quick, and easy and it doesn't cost $200.
$40 for a Lee lead melter, $12 for a lifetime supply of the salts (stump remover, fertilizer), $35 for a thermocouple temperature meter, and $20 for a lab ring stand to hold everything. You do need a stainless steel thermocouple probe that can stand the temperature. One of these days I'll ditch the thermocouple temp meter and substitute an electronic controller that can handle the lead melter current. Then I won't have to keep one eye on the temp, and keep adjusting the knob on the melter while I work. But when I first set up, I already had the meter, so have been using it to avoid more cash outlay.
Brass anneals faster at higher temperatures, and there is no penalty for being a bit on the warm side. I run my salt bath from about 785 F to 840 F. At those temperatures, it takes 3 seconds or less to anneal brass. The amount of annealing increases linearly with time, and increases with the cube of temperature (Kelvin).
I checked my annealing by cutting a chunk out of the sidewall of a rifle case, and flexing it back and forth 90 degrees until it cracked. 7-8 flexes would usually do the job. Then I took another chunk from the same case, annealed it, flexed it 5 times, annealed again, and repeated. Sometime after 120 flexes I gave up trying to crack it. It had more endurance than I did.
Yes, if you're quick there is no reason to drop the brass in water. Dropping it in water is not really quenching. You're just making sure that the case head doesn't get softened. I usually water cool mine, but that isn't based on any scientific investigation. It doesn't slow up the process, it might prevent a problem, and once it is cooled it won't burn your fingers.
Salt bath annealing is cheap, quick, and easy and it doesn't cost $200...
You're right, but I never said that it cost $200. Here's what I said. And I am in Canada.
Originally Posted by Steve Redgwell
If you have no equipment, this system is less than $200 CDN (approx. $150 USD). Which includes the salt, thermometer, case holder and Lee pot. I have been salt annealing for awhile, and it beats the candle method to bits. It is faster, and much easier on the fingers. Watch the video.
I use an electric drill to slowly rotate the case held in a proper size shell holder in a semi dark room. Remove the heat as soon as the neck/shoulder turns deep red. No water. I use two shell holders to make handling easier.
I've read the link, and am having a hard time reconciling it with my experience. To believe the results, you have to believe that you can heat brass to 800F and NOT anneal it. It also conflicts with my experimental results.
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I checked my annealing by cutting a chunk out of the sidewall of a rifle case, and flexing it back and forth 90 degrees until it cracked. 7-8 flexes would usually do the job. Then I took another chunk from the same case, annealed it, flexed it 5 times, annealed again, and repeated. Sometime after 120 flexes I gave up trying to crack it. It had more endurance than I did.
I use an electric drill to slowly rotate the case held in a proper size shell holder in a semi dark room. Remove the heat as soon as the neck/shoulder turns deep red. No water. I use two shell holders to make handling easier.
Brass begins to glow a faint orange at about 950° so I'm assuming a deep red might be approaching 1300° In either case both of them are going to produce brass that is "over"annealed the deep red approaching "extreme" annealing
I've read the link, and am having a hard time reconciling it with my experience. To believe the results, you have to believe that you can heat brass to 800F and NOT anneal it. It also conflicts with my experimental results.
Quote
I checked my annealing by cutting a chunk out of the sidewall of a rifle case, and flexing it back and forth 90 degrees until it cracked. 7-8 flexes would usually do the job. Then I took another chunk from the same case, annealed it, flexed it 5 times, annealed again, and repeated. Sometime after 120 flexes I gave up trying to crack it. It had more endurance than I did.
Am guessing you didn't resize them in conventional dies!
There are all sorts of things that affect the "need" to anneal. One is how much the case necks are sized each time: The less they're sized down, the less they work-harden. Which is one good reason to use dies that don't have an expander ball, whether Lee collet dies, or bushing dies that only neck them down enough to hold bullets firmly.
I've read the link, and am having a hard time reconciling it with my experience. To believe the results, you have to believe that you can heat brass to 800F and NOT anneal it. It also conflicts with my experimental results.
The reason it doesn't seem to make sense is because they've taken the position that full annealing is the only proper way to anneal. What reloaders refer to as "annealing" is typically referring to recovery annealing, that is, keeping temperatures relatively low to gain a modest increase in ductility (reduction in hardness) while retaining the basic strength properties of the material. When you keep the brass at 800F as in your example, that's recovery annealing. To take an often used example, when the cases get red hot, that's moving past recovery and into full annealing where there's a much larger increase in ductility (large reduction in hardness) along with a large reduction in the strength of the material.
So when AMP is saying Salt Bath Annealing isn't effective at softening cases it's misleading. SBA is effective for recovery annealing, the type of annealing reloaders normally practice, but isn't effective for full annealing which AMP is claiming to be the proper way to anneal.
I'm not taking a position on which is "better", just explaining the basic idea behind the seemingly contradictory information coming from AMP.
Anybody use the Giraud propane case annealer? Looks to be infinitely adjustable for temp, and duration of exposure to heat. Several feed wheels to fit most cartridges.
I've read the link, and am having a hard time reconciling it with my experience. To believe the results, you have to believe that you can heat brass to 800F and NOT anneal it. It also conflicts with my experimental results.
The reason it doesn't seem to make sense is because they've taken the position that full annealing is the only proper way to anneal. What reloaders refer to as "annealing" is typically referring to recovery annealing, that is, keeping temperatures relatively low to gain a modest increase in ductility (reduction in hardness) while retaining the basic strength properties of the material. When you keep the brass at 800F as in your example, that's recovery annealing. To take an often used example, when the cases get red hot, that's moving past recovery and into full annealing where there's a much larger increase in ductility (large reduction in hardness) along with a large reduction in the strength of the material.
So when AMP is saying Salt Bath Annealing isn't effective at softening cases it's misleading. SBA is effective for recovery annealing, the type of annealing reloaders normally practice, but isn't effective for full annealing which AMP is claiming to be the proper way to anneal.
I'm not taking a position on which is "better", just explaining the basic idea behind the seemingly contradictory information coming from AMP.
That's a pretty good analysis and a good description how they supported their conclusion. My take on it was that AMP sells $1500 annealers, and has a pretty big stake in "proving" that nothing else is as good, especially if it's just a $100 DIY setup. I was surprised how many people believed it though, and several even claimed that a company like that wouldn't mislead us.
I also observed that the pictures of AMP's "salt bath annealed" brass look different than any brass I've annealed in a salt bath, so they did something different there. When salt bath annealing, I don't see dark case necks like they got. I get bright case necks with a pretty distinct "wet line" just past the shoulder where the bath surface was, and some darker discoloration past that.
One other comment on salt bath annealing - most of us keep the salt bath at 900°F. We're trying to get case necks up to 750°F, but with heat transfer, we're trying to heat the necks without heating the base, so we have to use a higher bath temp and keep the time short.
I have a friend that has an Annealeze. I give him my cleaned de-primed brass and he anneals them for me. He has told me that after I resize, and trim to let him anneal them again for uniform neck tension. Is annealing them a second time worth it? or is that overdoing it? I am good either way, as my only cost is a few propane bottles.
I have been loading for years and years and I have never anelled a single piece of brass....what is the benefit...?
Consistent neck tension for accuracy, and eliminating case neck splits. In loading for years and years, have you never split a case mouth?
Yep jus throw them away.... I shoot a lot of high volume loads...prarie dogs ....if I can get under 1/4 inch with military brass ...it's not for me...I have a hard time getting loaded up as is... Sounds like a great deal for target shooters tho...and another thing to fiddle away time between seasons...I get plenty of reloads out of my brass.. Every gun has a min of 1000 reds loaded for it...the 222 sake has 3 k...so if I shoot all the brass 7-8 times holly cow I probably won't live that long.. Only troublesome one with splits is 22 hornet...222 223 204 20 tac all get great life hardly ever split necks.. How's things in skagit county...I used to work in Anacortes....
Anybody use the Giraud propane case annealer? Looks to be infinitely adjustable for temp, and duration of exposure to heat. Several feed wheels to fit most cartridges.
I have one. I have only used it for my .308 LR/Palma ammo so far, but it's nice to just load up the hopper w/ 300 cases and let it work.
Yup, though I use the torch method, so no need to deprime/clean beforehand.
That's what I did before using the salt bath. I still do it that way for small batches where I want to anneal 20-40 pieces maybe and it's not worth the time to let the salt bath heat up. Salt bath ends up way faster for large batches though, and is more consistent as far as I can tell.
A propane torch. When your fingers get hot, stop. Air cool or quench, whatever floats your boat. It ain't rocket science.
Yup, my father taught me this way when I was about 5 years old, your fingers tell you when to set the case down on a cloth to cool. case life seems just fine in any that I have annealed. Cat
My take on it was that AMP sells $1500 annealers, and has a pretty big stake in "proving" that nothing else is as good, especially if it's just a $100 DIY setup. I was surprised how many people believed it though, and several even claimed that a company like that wouldn't mislead us.
I also observed that the pictures of AMP's "salt bath annealed" brass look different than any brass I've annealed in a salt bath, so they did something different there. When salt bath annealing, I don't see dark case necks like they got. I get bright case necks with a pretty distinct "wet line" just past the shoulder where the bath surface was, and some darker discoloration past that.
One other comment on salt bath annealing - most of us keep the salt bath at 900°F. We're trying to get case necks up to 750°F, but with heat transfer, we're trying to heat the necks without heating the base, so we have to use a higher bath temp and keep the time short.
Honestly I don't think they're trying to intentionally mislead anybody. I think the whole thing looks odd and disjointed because they didn't have a properly set-up experiment to begin with. It looks to me like they were tinkering around and found some interesting stuff, then pieced it back together afterwards and called it "research". Unfortunately, without following the basic rules for a valid experiment that leaves the reader questioning the obvious holes in their conclusions but at least now they've added some more information to the article. I just look at it for what it is, they're a business not a university, it's not incumbent on them to publish detailed research on their competitor's products.
Regardless of what AMP or anybody else claims, in the competition realm it just comes down to results. If people are winning with AMP machines, others will shell out the money for one. If people win while never annealing a case or something in between, the herd will move that way too. Results rule. Competition is about optimizing a myriad of variables, annealing is just one. For everyone else, judging by what I see at the range most days, quibbling over annealing methods is the least of the average shooters' problems .
Regardless, AMP has a very obvious and strong motive to discredit lower cost annealing solutions, so it doesn't really matter our feelings about them as a company, we should remain very skeptical when they do that.
Regardless, AMP has a very obvious and strong motive to discredit lower cost annealing solutions, so it doesn't really matter our feelings about them as a company, we should remain very skeptical when they do that.
Well, for what it's worth, my personal unscientific study involved two lots of brass: about 200 rounds of 270 WSM cases that had been loaded 3X or 4X, of which several cases exhibited case neck cracks on the 4th or 5th loadings, and 300 rounds of 375 H&H brass, loaded 3X, which had also started to show case neck cracks.
I did some serious research (re-read JB's candle method in GG), bought some candles, and went to work. Annealed all the brass and reloaded a bunch, none of which cracked. Interestingly, group sizes for the 270 WSM brass were not appreciably different from the pre-annealing loads, but the annealed 375 H&H brass loads shot significantly smaller groups than the pre-annealed brass.
I guess that's good enough for me to say it's worth taking the time to candle-anneal my brass now. The amount of time it takes doesn't seem onerous, as I'm usually just listening to podcasts or music while I noodle around in my reloading shop anyways.
I may take a stab at the molten salts deal one of these days, as it seems pretty tidy, but that might involve actually pre- and post-annealing group measurements, and that would definitely smack of rifle looneyism if you ask me.
Regardless, AMP has a very obvious and strong motive to discredit lower cost annealing solutions, so it doesn't really matter our feelings about them as a company, we should remain very skeptical when they do that.
I don't believe that for a moment. I've met the owner and his son. Very decent straight up people who are absolute perfectionists. They can't keep up with the demand for their AMP machine as it is so there is no need to try and discredit anyone else's annealing ideas. They're just trying help people realize that what they think is great annealing is not necessarily so. They also say, "for those reloader's considering getting started on annealing, and who are on a budget, we would recommend a gas flame-based option".
They have also addressed many of the issues that have been raised on various forums regarding their original report on salt bath annealing in "Molten Salt Bath Annealing Report Addendum" at the end of the original report.
I use an electric drill to slowly rotate the case held in a proper size shell holder in a semi dark room. Remove the heat as soon as the neck/shoulder turns deep red. No water. I use two shell holders to make handling easier.
Brass begins to glow a faint orange at about 950° so I'm assuming a deep red might be approaching 1300° In either case both of them are going to produce brass that is "over"annealed the deep red approaching "extreme" annealing
Trystan
Key words are “ semi dark “ and “ deep red “
I’m sure that Brass does probably begin to glow a faint orange at 950. That “ faint orange “ has long surpassed the temperature of a “deep red” in the dark. A deep red is the color you see when the brass first starts to give light in semi dark to dark conditions.The brass is not over annealed using this method imo. It hold compressed loads just fine.
Don’t believe me? Count how many “Mississippi ‘s” in the dark it takes to get a “ deep red “on the brass with a torch and then count the same number of Mississippi’s in a well lit room. You will find that there is no detectable glow. Brass is annealed very consistently with good scientific methods and practice.
I use Anneal Rite. https://cartridgeanneal.com/ Its as simple as it gets. Download a Metronome to your phone, have a 2 second tempo (2 seconds is the time it takes to heat a case, per several test with 750 tempilaq), and get in the groove. Total time of 4 seconds per round, two seconds to load plus 2 seconds to anneal. 100 rounds in 400 seconds (less than 7 minutes). No setup time, foolproof, as easy as it gets. I'll spend money on cool tools, can't load without the Girard case trimmer and have had one for well over 10 years, but the simple Anneal Rite is where its at for annealing.
I use Anneal Rite. https://cartridgeanneal.com/ Its a simple as it gets. Download a Metronome to your phone, have a 2 second tempo (2 seconds is the time it takes to heat a case, per several test with 750 tempilaq), and get in the groove. Total time of 4 seconds per round, two seconds to load plus 2 seconds to anneal. 100 rounds in 400 seconds (less than 7 minutes). No setup time, foolproof, as easy as it gets. I'll spend money on cool tools, can't load with the Girard case trimmer and have had one for well over 10 years, but the simple Anneal Rite is where its at for annealing.
I've had an Anneal-Rite for several years. For the price, it's one of the best solutions to annealing large amounts of brass. In the chapter on annealing in GUN GACK II provides some more suggestions on how to use it.
I use an electric drill to slowly rotate the case held in a proper size shell holder in a semi dark room. Remove the heat as soon as the neck/shoulder turns deep red. No water. I use two shell holders to make handling easier.
Brass begins to glow a faint orange at about 950° so I'm assuming a deep red might be approaching 1300° In either case both of them are going to produce brass that is "over"annealed the deep red approaching "extreme" annealing
Trystan
Key words are “ semi dark “ and “ deep red “
I’m sure that Brass does probably begin to glow a faint orange at 950. That “ faint orange “ has long surpassed the temperature of a “deep red” in the dark. A deep red is the color you see when the brass first starts to give light in semi dark to dark conditions.The brass is not over annealed using this method imo. It hold compressed loads just fine.
Don’t believe me? Count how many “Mississippi ‘s” in the dark it takes to get a “ deep red “on the brass with a torch and then count the same number of Mississippi’s in a well lit room. You will find that there is no detectable glow. Brass is annealed very consistently with good scientific methods and practice.
I'm always open to learning something new. Have you ever used templac to test this theory or are you just guessing? Not trying to be smart with you I really want to know how accurate the method is
I use a lee lock stud in drill. Chuck the case up , spin the neck in the flame(In the dark) while counting Mississippi’s. Once you’ve established how many Mississippi’s a deep deep red is,( the first color you will see in the dark. Whatever you want to call that color) you can turn on the lights and just count Mississippi’s. I always quench the cases so I don’t get burnt taking them out of the lock stud. It speeds it up as well.
You will not see any kind of glow, with the same number of Mississippi’s, in the light btw. I’m not looking for a specific harness either so why would I use templac? I’m just looking to bring every case to the same hardness. That’s way more important than a few points on the Brinell scale either way.
The brass winds up hard enough to hold any compressed loads I have tried. More importantly it holds all the bullets in a consistent manner.
Not really a theory btw. Not sure the exact temp brass gives light in the dark but it’s less than 950!
i have only ever used the bucket of water - lit candle way to anneal. now another site they say that doesn`t work they say brass needs to go up to 750 degrees before it is annealed. i have watched it at a ammo factory get annealed and i know dang well that was not 750 degrees either. so what is the temperature or better way to anneal ? or does the candle-water bucket work ,which i think does ?
The candle method works well for me. Some parts of the candle flame can reach well over 2000F which is plenty hot, just a question of how long to hold the case in the flame.
Some interesting information especially when you scroll down the article and look at the various graphs.
that is a great article to read and thank you for posting this article ! i think for myself i will stay with new Lapua brass and do some candle/water annealing too.thank you,Pete53
Some interesting information especially when you scroll down the article and look at the various graphs.
that is a great article to read and thank you for posting this article ! i think for myself i will stay with new Lapua brass and do some candle/water annealing too.thank you,Pete53
miles
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