Not much info on the new coopers. I don't think that I would like a laminated stock though. No price, specs even mention of them on the Cooper Website either. I think that the coopers probably are a better set up the the Gunwerks system.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Kaboku,

Got a link for us? I'm not to familiar with Coopers and what's new and what's not.

Cooper firearms are a semi-custom and custom gun company that is based in Montana. They have made their bones with nice very accurate rifles chambered for rimfire and varmit calibers.

They gradually introduced single shot rifles in big game calibers and presently made rifles in 30/06 and 308 calibers like 338.06 and 250-3000 savage. These were available in xx claro to exibition french walnut with custom engraving and turnbull casehardening.

They were originally the brain child of Dan Cooper who was an ex-employee of Kimber of Oregon manufacturing. He basically took some seed money and bought several Anschultz model 52 22 caliber rifles. He developed a rifle that was similar to them with a detachable magazine that is based single row in the center of the mag well with a very dependable release lever. He put in nice triggers that are nestled around 2 to 2.5 lbs with little creep and a three lug bolt and ejector. He bought the best match barrels from Wilson Barrels Manufacturing and got the very best employees from Kimber of old.

Dan had also bought at bargain prices the manufacturing machinery from Kimber of Oregon.

He made an interesting rifle that was a centerfire version of the 22lr called the ccm. He gave two to President Bush who used them on his ranch. Supposedly the Marines who were stationed at Crawford actually went through 100,000 rounds of it and Dan repaired the barrels. They offer that kind of backing.

Well even a good guy can go wrong. Dan Cooper decided to support Barry "Follow the Rainbow" Obama and gave him significant campaign contributions. This should of been the kiss of death for Cooper but the board of directors at Cooper paid him and severed his connections to the company. The owner of Wilson custom barrels purchased Cooper Arms and Cooper has continued to innovate.

Recently they developed a model 54 in 308 caliber cartridges in wood and synthetic(BC medalist) stocks that weigh near 6lbs 2oz. This might seem heavy for a mountain rifle when Kimber montuckys and even Tikkas might beat this out but the combination of a very solid action, a unlawyered trigger and a match grade barrel that is hooked up by a pretty darned good machinist will produce a rifle that can group .5 MOA. They test shoot each rifle at 44yards with a 36X leupold and the clusters mostly form one ragged hole. Some can be finicky but most cooper owners can't stop at one rifle and could care less if the ex-owner was seduced hook-line-and-sinker by a known womanizer and winey punk who hates guns and Alaska.

Cooper customer service is different than most in that the people actually like to talk about their guns and good handloads and hunting and stuff. I guess that they are harder to reach during hunting season. They mentioned that they were going to produce magnum length rifles called a model 56 this year and would introduce them at the SHOT show. The first offerings were to be 7Rem and 300 Winchester Mag. Cooper the way that they run would likely produce Weathery calibers and some others like 358 Norma and maybe a 300 HH if you asked them too.

Well Best of the West came on with an extended Trailer with Cooper Rifles coming out of the Ashes with a big Hawk. The Best of the West episode was about Bear Attacks and how it was hard to hit bears when they charge at you.
Throughout the show they actually have commercials for Cooper Rifles that are done very professionally and which will appeal to people who actually like to see the people make guns and have pride in their work rather than some idiot with a big hat saying that this was the best thing made in New York or someplace without meeting the people who actually made the guns.

The Shooting guy John Porter who is mainly a farmer but who guides sheep and elk in Montana and has nailed a moose at 800+ yards with their old set up shows their new outfit. It is a ceracoted stainless magnum action Cooper rifle with a laminated stock that is much in the shape of the tactical long range stocks that Big Stick likes. The gun is cerrakoted and mounted with their Huskemaw riflescope that has the tactical dial.

He claims that it is able to group .5 MOA at 1000 yards with Berger ammo. We don't get to see it shoot but they say that they will have them out at the Dallas Safari Club Expo at the Best in the West Booth.

This could be bad and it could be good.
The Rifle is probably better than their Gunwerks System and if it is for less money than it is a good deal.
They charge more for it and they raise the prices on Coopers than this sucks.
Coopers have been a niche company making a very good product for a pretty good price and they could be easily spoiled if the wrong nitwits screw with the formula that they have going.

This post is probably too long but it explains Cooper to an Alaskan. Presently there are no Cooper Dealers in Alaska. SW did carry them before they crashed and there were two in Anchorage and (One in Fairbanks that I bought on a very good deal after I researched them.) I like it a lot.

Sincerely,
Thomas

If they are teaming up with BOTW, and throwing huskemshits on them...then the nitwits have done screwed the formula.

If they are teaming up with BOTW, and throwing huskemshits on them...then the nitwits have done screwed the formula. [/quote]
What is it that you do not like about the scope?

That was only a lying prop, Dan still pulls the strings there I have no doubt.

Nicely written up though kaboku68.

SU35 there was kind of a strange question that I have. There is a forum member named DINK who knows more about Cooper. I figure the Montana kindred have a better understanding of Montana families and gun companies so maybe the general audience can help me out.

There was a guy with the BOTW crew named "Bob" Cooper and I was wondering who the hell he was. They mentioned that the owner of Wilson barrels controlled the company but I just wonder what is Bob Cooper's role with the company.

Sincerely,
Thomas

A couple of minor clarifications. I believe John Porter guides in Wyoming. Dan Cooper lives in Ohio and has nothing to do with his old company. Wilson has family members at the Stevensville, MT factory. A couple of key Cooper managers have left the company since the sale.

Thxs Toolelk. Cooper, IMO did a good job on showing me what I want with their rifles. I am worried that success many times can ruin a good thing. I know that I personally prefer their classic or excaliber style stock but sure look hopefully for a 300 Weatherby Mag offering.


I am curious if Cooper will soon elaborate on their model 56 mag length action and if they are now offering cerracoting.

THomas

They have the Cooper 560 listed on the Best of the West Longe Range Store. 6 month wait, several calibers at 6k + for the shooting system. http://www.longrangestore.com/product_p/00100700.htm

Interesting to say the least.

Mr. Cooper was a BIG Obama supporter, much to the chagrin of his own employees. People seem to forgetstuff like that in their rush to spend money. Just like people forget that a few years ago HS Precision employed the babykiller Lon Horiuchi who was the sniper who killed Randy Weaver's family at Ruby Ridge. I steer my meagre dollars away from them kind of businesses.

I am not impressed with Cooper firearms, if I was going to spend that kinda money I would rather have a gunwerks gun or a Kirby Allen gun. Kirby builds some extremely nice guns, some day when I grow up and are a slum dog millionare I hope to have about a dozen of his guns.

I think Coopers nich is accurate rifles in pretty wood stocks. If they are gonna go stainless and synthetics I think there are plenty of other options at better price points.

freebird, One could buy at least three Coopers for what Kirby's rifles start at in price. mtmuley

Three really! I didn't see any $700 coopers on there site.

Sorry but this post begs for the flag

hey, it does qualify for free shipping!

OK, Correct me if I am wrong. Cooper rifle 1500-2000 bucks. Kirby Allen Magnum starting 4000 plus. Not exactly 3-1 but close. mtmuley

Ok your wrong!!! I have three rifles built by Kirby and none of them came close to $4000

Plus cooper rifles and Kirby's rifles are kind of like comparing apples to oranges. with a cooper you get what they offer and in only a few calibers.

With Kirby he will build it the way you want it, any caliber, any contour / length barrel, brake ,action, stock, trigger.

You don't say JB................

Not sure where he came up with the prices

I looked at the rifles at the ISE show in Glendale last week. They appeared to be nice rifles. I had to laugh as the one they handed me had a turret on it for 13,000'. I asked him if that was right- he said it was for a sheep hunt in Wy that he went on. He said that they were good for plus/minus 2000 yds. I told him that was great as I do most of my hunting between 11,000- and 15,000'. He laughed and said that I had made my point

All this said, I am worn out on this whole Best of the West, Grey Bull, Gunwerks, Red Rock, G7. et al... It seems like it has just snow-balled and now everywhere I guide, I find guys taking crazy long shots at game and either wounding them or not being able to find them. I think we are enabling too many very mediocre shooters into thinking that all they have to do is write a check for $6-$7K and instantly they are the latest incarnation of Carlos Hathcock. I know one guy that supposedly had wounded 4 elk last year. I saw his buddy at a wedding reception last night who told me that he actually shot 9 bulls and never recovered a single one. I just don't get it!

I certainly don't begrudge these guys for trying to make a dollar selling rifles but there certainly is a down side to it, at least in my eyes.

How many more of these outfits are going to spring up? Not sure the history of them as it seems that they are all like either family or ex-business partners or disgruntled employees trying to get their piece of the pie!

Ok, rant over.

Amen. So how much would it cost me to be able to kill my elk at 700 yards?

It takes practice to be proficient. I do not get to shoot long range much where I now live and would not feel comfortable shooting at an animal at long range without proper and consistent practice.

Yes, I agree, but there are many people in this instant gratification society that are convinced that they can. They see all these videos with these 800,900, 1000 yds instant kills and think that if you buy one of these systems that it is magic!!

What they don't see, that I do as a guide, is the gut shot animals, the neck shot animals, the ham shot animals and whatever other spot you can hit non-vitals.

I had a hunter this year that shot BOTH back feet off of a bull! The bull went about 20 yds and laid down but it was sickening to see his feet shot off when we closed the distance and finished him off.

These weren't "long" shot by these system gun standards either! But they were convinced that they had to do it!

That is one of the biggest reasons that I hate these "yardage marked turret" people buy those gimmicks and think that they are ready to go, yet they have learned nothing about the affects of barometric pressure on their shots where they are hunting which may be drastically different than how the "yardage turrets" are marked.

Trying to short cut "knowledge" is a recipe for failure IMHO and experience


One needs a Kestrel weather station and a hand held computer with a ballistics targeting software program for real time info and the ability to set the turrets for not only the distance, but the conditions






If one truly wants to hunt long range a dedicated long range rig is superior to trying to take a general purpose hunting rifle and using it for double duty

Total Bullschit, unless you are trying to hit targets with a Chey-Tac or a Mc-50 at 1200yd or farther.

Maybe you're clued in and I'm a moron JW, but I didn't have a problem hitting all those iron maidens in SOTIC 24 years ago, in the "pre Kestrel/computer days".

Yes, a kestrel is good, I own one, but you need to learn how to use your spotter and read the mirage to dope the wind.

The Army has used a "yardage-marked turret" since 1988. The guys on the SOTIC Committee that designed it, collectively sent about 200 mofos to hell in SE Asia. People they've trained have place many more there.

Yes one must read the wind, but I am located at sea level. All of my practice and data is worthless when I travel out west to hunt a 10,000 elevation. With the tools that I have out lined and use I can now get the proper data for my turret correction at distance. I have proven this to work.

If the proper data is entered proper data is recieved. I need first rounds hits not sighters

True enough, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your method, IF you have time to employ all that stuff, and a lot of times if the shot is far enough, you do have "all day". Being able to plug and chug every variable would be an asset, and if the shot if far enough, might just be essential. But, speaking for myself, I don't have any business taking a game shot at 1100-1200 yd, and neither do most of the rest of us. You don't have to have a ballistics computer to hit a pie plate at 600yd. You do need to know how far away the target is and what the wind dope for your load is. If you want to use M1 or M2 dials, just print out extra drop sheets for every 20 degree temp at the altitude you are hunting at.

Oh, JW, you really need to level out that cheekrest on your rifle, on those really, really long shots, that will bite you in the a$$.

Don't see how it is slower. I take a barometric reading early before first light. Once the animal is spotted and ranged the turret is turned or I can use the reticle. Do yardage marked turrets turn faster? Do you still not have to range the animal if it appears at an unknown range, with yardage marked turrets

The problem with yardage marketed turrets is not as much with the turrets themself as it is with the way they are marketed toward peolpe that are not savy in long range hunting and getting them to think that the turrets turn them into "long range marksmen in the hunting fields

This is my biggest beef too!

You don't 'need' the Kestrel and computer etc but if you don't use something like that, you better have a LOT of practice and experience shooting long range- most of the people buying one of these systems do NOT have that kind of experience or they would have put their own stuff together long before! It is a LOT easier to get a wind velocity and pressure off a Kestrel then it is to learn to read mirage and wind on the leaves etc.

JWP,
Not to be a smart arse or disrespectful to anyone that practices and can manage long range shots and who can do so with consistency but there is no question that there are those among us that as a previous poster said think because they just spent $7000 on a rifle and optics they can kill game at long range.
The TV shows that show those long range kills I don't even watch anymore however it appears said shows and all of the rest of the long range hype have done in some cases exactly what others have spoken about.
Bad hits, wounded animals, wrong animals, complete misses and endless searches for animals that are never found. Nothing wrong with a guy that is capable and can make the shots but my guess is they are in the minority.
Get in "sheep shape", practice,utilize the right equipment, know the area being hunted, and know the hunted and his habits. I had a real nice Muley @ 794 yards in a 30mph 9:00 wind. He was bedded but there was no way that shot was even considered.
4 hours later @ 350 yards give or take a few yards I harvested him. I wonder how many guys shooting a 7MM RM w/168 Bergers and a Huskamaw scope would have tried the 794 yard poke?
Being able and confident in the ability to take a long shot if necesary is good but IMHO an ability employed when it is the only option. Again I am not knocking those that choose to hunt LR that are capable and have prepared properly and can make the shot if that is how they choose to harvest animals. Those that haven't prepared properly need to leave the LR rig in the safe, quit eating chocolate chip cookies, get on their bicycles and get in shape and get closer IMHO.

Dave

That is exactly what I am talking about with the pimping of the yardage turrets

We have a WINNER. Someone that gets it.

No you don't if your practice location is the same as your hunting in terms of elevation. Either way one must be able to read the wind. If I am not sure of a wind call I do not shoot it's that simple

JWP,
I find it way more challenging to plan a stalk and get closer. I can't read the wind well enough anyway and know my limitations. Those that know all of the particulars about their loads who have a computer and a program like the Sierra Infinity or some of the others that are just as good or better can do an info sheet based on where they are going to hunt and get pretty close but knowing doesn't make a LR shooter. I would think with good equipment banging plates and getting good at whatever ranges are anticipated would be key ingredients.
I find it tough enough to carry the stuff that is in my pack now without the Wind meter, pocket computer, weather station, and inclinometer. Way to complicated when all a guy has to be able to do is get closer and within the range he is comfortable with.
Info sheet and/or simply knowing the rifle and scope combination well and knowing what shooting at 30 and 45 degrees does to your shot and getting closer and a guy doesn't have to worry too much about reading the wind.
For me stalking to within 400 yards or less is the scenario I like with the ability and the confidence to go out to 500 yards if that's all I got. Scopes with bullet drop reticles and practice set up for any situation 500 and under.
Many times the shot isn't hanging around waiting for a guy to get situated even if it is a LR poke. No time to get the Kestral out. In my case it is much easier to lay off the home made brownies and potato chips and get in shape.
One more issue worth mentioning IMHO. If a guy is in shape it is much easier to get an animal out too.

Dave

Knowing when to pass a shot is the most important thing you learn by practicing long range shooting. Some people will never practice enough to learn this with the store bought longrange in a can kits.

And so if you want to get closer and thats your desire, I have but one question, WTF are you doing in the long range forum?

General comments about wind meters vs reading the leaves/mirage etc....

I shot competitively and if it were not for our sport requiring offhand shooting, at which I more or less suck at, I was proficient enough to be a fairly well ranked competitor, offhand holding me back from being, IMHO, a candidate for a civilian national champion at some point.

Anyway, the wind meters will beat the guesses ALL day long. Mirage is worthless past about 15mph for all practical purposes. NOW I never ran strictly with a wind speed meter because mirage does affect the windage call MORE than just what wind is worth... its an optical illusion, so mirage or the lack of it is an EXTRA input into the aiming formulation.

Now if you were just going to shoot to say 500-600 and need to hit a target anywhere, the above is probably not worth my time of typing, but if you are aiming small, and even small at 600, then you need to consider all the factors it takes to stay inside an MOA or less group at distance.

Well said, I shot 1000 YD BR for a number of years. I concur with you. The thing about target shooting is that we got to shoot sighter so SEE if the wind was what we thought - we only had to try and match the conditions as we went along. With hunting, it is very difficult to see where your bullet hits sometimes and no guarantee that the deer will stand around for a 2nd poke!

Good stuff, IME, under all but the best of conditions for viewing mirage, it disappears at about 15mph, especially with hand held portable optics. For any paratroopers out there, this is the origin of the 13 "naut" no-jump rule.

The Leupy B&C reticle has built in dope for 10mph winds, this should be a clue to most of us when it is time to pass on the shot.

Rost,
Jackin you up what else. Nice comment. Also, I am still not sure what the definition of LR is. Maybe someone as smooth and as obviously intelligent as you are would be so kind as to define it for me.
How about this (if a guy is shooting a 22 Magnum) 200 yards is Long Range. Is then 400 yards long range shooting a .223 or a .243? Why don't you tell us and hold the obsenities.

Dave

I am very big on my Ruger #1 in .270WBY for long range. Lots of others out there. Good luck.

You shot BR... I shot service rifle. NO sighters at any yard line in CMP matches.... and once I learned what a crutch sighters were, I never used them ever again if allowed by rules not to. You learn a LOT more that way. When the first shot is do or die. And that wasn't a slam at BR either. Just commenting that my particular chosen favorite sport was no sighters. Of course our ten ring was a "bit".... larger than yours ever was.

So if I was shooting a 22 mag at 200 you'd come in and say, nope I like to stalk up to 50 for the 22 mag.....
If I came across strong... well I meant it actually. I get tired of those coming here and telling others what they can and can't do.
I've said it before and will again, some days 200 could be the long side, other days 1000 is gravy. If you have the intelligence, you'll know when and when not. There is no fixed line, so maybe you and I are on the same page, but this LR forum gets bashed enough by folks preaching what others shoudl do instead of a long shot.

Truth be told there was a time in my life that if you didn't hunt with archery gear you were just not talented enough and used a rifle as a crutch... but I got past all that.

Some hunt for differeing reasons. If you don't like long shots cool, don't come here and preach though. Be like a Republican ragging on a democratic forum

100 yards is long range for me with my compound bow, 30 yards long range with my long bow or recurve, Long range for rifle on paper for me would be anything out past 600 yards and as far as 1000 yards. Long range for hunting would be 600 to 800 yards with the right shot presentation.

Guys this has been a remarkably civil thread lets try to keep it that way. I dont think anybody was peeing on the idea of long range, I think everyone here is just trying to be aware of their limitations. I have plenty of respect for a man that knows his limitations and holds himself to those limitations in the field regardless of how big the buck or bull is. I dont know why there would ever be an issue with someone not being sure of their shot and working closer and I sure dont see that as being anti-long range.

I was very pleased this weekend at a match to put a 500yard cold bore shot only 1 1/2" from dead center and the next three rounds went into a tad under 3". Jumping to the 600 the wind started swirling all over the place and the pretty 3" group jumped to 11 inches of horizontal spread. As sure as I was at 500 I knew I would have not tried the 600yard shot in the field at an animal. Moving on to the 800 yard stage the wind started to settle down and I put three rounds into 3.75" about 2" off of dead center. Again based on conditions I would have taken that shot in the field. Ten minutes later the wind was all over the place again and I would have passed.

My personal best long range shot was with a .410 on a Dove 60 yards give or take 5 yards crossing right to left. I was maybe 17 hunting with a friend. He said his shotgun wouldn't hit anything. So I said well let me give it a try. I thought when the dove went down it had a heart attack. LOL then we looked it over sure enough two pellets one in the breast and one in the neck. LUCKIEST SHOT I EVER MADE!

I know as soon as I win the 300 million dollar lottery I plan on buying many guns. Me personally, my own opinions. I would own at least 25 of Kirby's guns, 24 gunwerks guns, 25 Black diamond rifles and am sure there are some other custom guns that I would include. I would not own any weatherby's or christiansen arms guns, cooper arms. Once can never have too many guns. I don't know if I ever heard a reason for the shake up at best of the west???? I thought they had a pretty good thing going before the shake up. As much as I would like to say I am a long range hunter, my furthest shot at a deer was 200 yards and I would like to think if a shot out to 800 ever presented itself I would feel confident enough in my skills to even consider the shot. I use to know a guy who would regularly take 75 yards shots at elk with his bow and arrow, he wounded alot of animals, only ever hunted with him once as I didn't like that type of hunting and was not proud to even say I knew him. I am sure through out the years there have been more animals killed with the good old 30-30 within 100 yards.

90% of the folks that shoot long range....aren't qualified to do so!!

I will certainly agree with that statement~!!!

Years ago I had an older friend that was in fact a Master Machinist and who was also a gunsmith. I did a little work for him now and then and he took my .300 Win mag in a Belgium Browning and worked on it so I had a very accurate rifle.

Now in those days I only shot out to 500 yards, which by todays standards is nothing to get excited about I guess. However, this rifle shooting 190 grn. Sierra BT bullets would shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 yards.

I watch this long range shooting on the Outdoor Channel and some of those shows make it look like eating cake to hit an animal at 700 or 800 yards. Just use the range finder get the yardage, turn the turret to that yardage and squeeze the trigger.........BANG FLOP~!!! It is just not that easy folks, there is a lot more to learn and know about doping wind and hitting targets that far down range.

Hunting shows are very misleading. Many factors come into play that can't just be edited out.We all also don't have access to as exclusive of hunting locations as TV Hunters.... I don't hardly even bother with hunting shows anymore.

I'd get excited about it! I can't imagine me being able to shoot a big game animal at that kinda distance. Damn. It might as well be 1500 yards for me. It amazes me that guys can shoot deer sized game at the distances that you guys talk about. I shot a blackbuck at 250 yards once, and that was about all I wanted.

I agree......

You hit the nail on the head!

Well practiced long range shooters would do the same. YOu just dont shoot when its not controllable by you, regardless if its 100 yards or 1000 yards. Pretty simple.

But while capabilities vary from shooter to shooter, IMHO those that practice enough, will not be buying a pre made rifle or ammo, and will know when and when not to shoot and not buy into gimmicky stuff...

350 yards could be a negative on a shot in some conditions pretty easy too.

Agreed, I've shot in enough conditions, at enough ranges, to know when I can't make a shot...and I know you know your own limitations.

I learned the hard way this deer season. I switched rifles and setups. With my 760 308, I was good out to 500 yards. With my Savage 7mag, I was good out to 650. I practiced alot with these two rigs and was confident in them.
This year I drew a good tag so I bought a new rifle. I mounted my scope, found a bullet that shot good and built a table out to 600. I shot good out to 500.
Christmas eve, I found a buck I wanted so I cut the distance from about 1200 yards to 503. my rangefinder however kept reading 520 to the closest thing I could get a reading on. So I dialed for 525 and backed off a couple clicks. Well I missed. I shot high. After it was all said and done, I took new readings with the rangefinder and got 503 over and over.

Point I am trying to make is this:
Make sure you have a reliable rangefinder (I am trashing mine and getting a new one)
Make sure you practice a lot with the new rig too, just not get it set up for distances.

For me they were stupid mistakes. However I did learn that with my new rig I better practice more than I did and I need to upgrade my aging equipment.

Just a thought
Kique

Good advice and spot on, the above posts

Best of the West vs the Least in the East?

Looks like John Porter left.. not sure but haven't seen him in any episodes recently.. too bad

Kinda like all the safe companies in Provo UT, disgruntled employees or someone who thinks they can do it better goes off and starts a new company. That's capitalism for you!