Anyone else know why the more recent "EDGE" fill stocks coming from McMillan aren't so light as they once were? I remember when they came out and weight quoted was around 22-24 ounces (it's even quoted in the "Fill Weights" thread in this forum). I have an edge stock from a few years back that is 23 ounces. The most recent EDGE stock I got weighed in at 28 ounces. Not heavy, but not really light either! It's a bit disappointing to see the EDGE fill is trending up in weight versus down as they've got a lot of options for the non-Remington 700/Clone based actions at a decent price compared to other options. They're also incredibly easy for the average guy to fit their action to compared to the Bansner, MPI, and Pound'r options; glass bed and go shooting essentially.

More of a rant, but sure wish McMillan would work on innovation and come out with Kevlar Super-EDGE that could compete in the ultralight category (<22 oz. including the pad). Or at least get their EDGE stocks on a diet and back to the original 22-24 oz. when they originally came out.

Mine have been pretty consistent at 24-25oz irrespective of barrel and action in letting. But it’s been a couple of years

I’m waiting on an ultra classic from manners right now which I’m hoping will finish under 20oz.

Amen, it’d be nice if they were going down in weight versus going up. I like McM a lot but it’s getting harder to pay for the EDGE action.

does 5 oz bother you?

When building a lightweight rifle where you're measuring the weight of everything, yes, 5 ounces bothers me a lot.

Same here. When figuring it all up 5 ounces here and there doesn’t take much to turn into 8-9 pounds.

Especially when you pay $650 plus

Most diffidently

5 oz's isn't a big deal on an 8.5 lb all up rifle. On at 6.5 lb all up rifle it is.

Interesting this has come up again. Seems I've seen this posted recently about several of their Edge stocks. I'm currently collecting parts for a lighter weight build and was thinking of just going with another Classic Edge, but if it came in weighing 28 ozs I'm not sure I would be all that happy. I am also trying to get to a target weight - so 5 ozs does matter.

Now that Manners and Proof can build 20 oz stocks you would think McMillan could also do that??

Do the newer, slightly heavier Edge stocks have beefed up carbon shells, or has the fill itself been changed?

We’re paying a premium for Edge.

DF

Not exactly sure DF, but they are beefy compared to what they were a few years back. I have a Echols Shrike that is an EDGE shell that weighs in at 23 ounces right now, unfinished. It's not going to get lighter....

When you are paying extra for that ,Yes.

I ordered a Sako 75 Hunter stock Edge and it weighed 29 ounces. It was for a 7mm Rem Mag.

Is there a specific manufacturing claim that McMillan is not meeting?

Anyone know if the standard stocks are weighing in a little more too? Just curious if all the stocks are a little heavier or just the edge fill?

Don't know if they've actually claimed to be competitive in the light weight stock market.

But, if they want to play, it may be smart to actually be competitive.

DF

I wasn’t asking if they wanted to play, I was asking if McMillan was not meeting a specific manufacturing claim. For example, if they claimed ALL stocks would fall between a specific weight. Just curious.

McMillan has been at the trough too damn long..

g

I wonder if McMillan has beefed up the Edge stock a bit to avoid liability due to buyers stocking rifles with recoil levels above their recommended .300 Win Mag.

I'm guilty myself, having a .338 Win and a .300 RUM in Edge fill stocks.

This falls in the category of if you have to ask the question you wouldn't understand the answer.

Paying serious bucks to shave those ounces.

DF

Yep.

In my world (backpacking) losing 5oz's for $150 +/- is considered on the bargain side of the equation.

Brown Precision Pounder is expensive. But, what do they know that McM doesn't? McM is expensive, too.

DF

Thats what I'm wondering?? Maybe they have beefed up the fill in the action area to make the stock stronger??

Wouldn't shock me if that was some it; human nature to push the envelope so to speak. Not really a good excuse by McMillan though as ...

1. None of the other manufacturers that compete in the ultralight field have caliber restrictions. Plenty of Pound'r stocks on 375's.
2. If McMillan makes the stock heavier than people were expecting, people may put them on a heavier caliber rifle and get a different brand to make weight on their "sheep" rifle.

Hahaha exactly!

Why don’t they offer a lightweight pad? The 1” Pachmayer’s are half the stock weight. Removing that weight from the very back of the stock, would do wonders for balance to where you could slim the barrel profile, shifting the bulk weight between your hands...the action area.

The 1/2" is hardly lighter than the 1"... the bulk of the weight is in the "foundation."

Not that much difference. For sure not where one could explain 5 oz.

DF

Yes, that metal foundation on just about all Pachmayr pads is the source. If one is willing to pay $150 more for edge fill, why not omit the Pachmayr pad and go with another brand that doesn’t have the steel insert and heavy base? Very cheap way to loose weight and improve balance IMO.

What brand pad are you thinking about?

DF

Concerning McMillan beefing them up.....I'll throw this out...it was a big surprise to me last year.

I had 2 Edge fill stocks inlet for M5 bottom metal. The company that made the bottom metal did the inlet.This also required installation of pillars which came with the bottom metal. I drilled out, little by little, the existing pillars in the edge stock....they are pretty flimsy. I drilled out and installed the precut aluminum pillars. While doing this I got to really see what the fill in Edge stocks is like. It's not substantial....at all. It crumbles.

I'm glad to have real pillars in there now. Seeing the fill first hand, and the "pillars" McMillan uses, set me back a little on Edge fill stocks.

That said I can't say that I've had a problem with an Edge fill and I've got/had a lot of them.

I installed a Hogue on my last project.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1151354638

I didnt weigh it prior to installing (wish I would have) but definitely lighter than a Pachmayr decellerator or old english. No steel insert, ground very well. I believe Pachmayer makes some 1/2 models that do not contain the steel spacer as well, but their dense base material is just heavy. I believe there was a thread on here about lightweight pad options a few months ago that mentioned other options.

Edit: Found it...link to a 2.5 oz pad and another link to the flip-flop pad thread (wish photobucket was running), also some common pad weights provided in the flip-flop thread.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...true/thin-light-recoil-pads#Post14369454

I started paying attention to this after owning a P-64 Fwt that had a Pachmayr ventilated pad added (as many have been). The rifle didnt balance quite right for me, which showed up when shooting from unsupported positions. Then I bought another P-64 Fwt which had the original aluminum butt plate. The difference was night and day to me. I have also had some Micky's built on patterns that were offered in the 80's/90's via the M70 winlites. Besides the winlite stocks being of better quality IMHO, they are a good bit lighter as they dont have that heavy Pachmayr pad hanging on the end of the stock.

IF MacM. we're now giving you more carbon/strength
for your money, I'd reasonably imagine they would make
a marketing promotional point about it.

I would say the additional weight is likely
to be attributed to more/ excess resin...
which means little in regards to extra
strength...(lest the orig. Edge could have
had less than optimal design/strength
formula to begin with?)


The term "Aerospace technology" is thrown around in
hunting stock industry, that is true about the carbon
and resins employed, but the 'hand laid' manufacturing
method is rather agricultural. IF ones knows about the
precision used in the aerospace industry when creating
composite technology components they will understand
how strictly they formulate and control the fibre/resin ratio,
distribution and weight, compared to gunstock manf.

In some way one is getting an aerospace grade stock,
but not in the way some might be led to believe.




One don't need Kevlar to be in the ultralight category.
when it comes to weight saving composite tech.,
carbon is superior to Kevlar.

There are diff.types of carbon and Kevlar, but in
general terms Kevlar has a more predictable
and forgivable failure mode compared to carbon fiber.

Kevlar fiber has tensile strength comparable with carbon,
a modulus between glass and carbon and lower density
than both.

Kevlar aramid has applications where lightweight, high
strength, stiffness, damage resistance, and resistance
to fatigue and stress rupture are important.

So if one wants a more resilient LW stock with less
chance of 'snapping'.. steer away from 100% carbon.

If one is building a stock that is a composite of materials , the stock will only be as strong as its weakest component. Kevlar is for strength not light weight. If you want a lightweight stock you would use E,S or S2 glass which is lighter and much stronger then Fiberglass. Of course it has to be applied in a strict environment to use it to best advantage.

Does anyone know how Brown builds their pound’r so light, yet so strong?

DF

Brown has always made the pounders out of Kevlar. They are hard to work on because of that fact. I looked at Bansners new stocks, they look very impressive. I was wondering when they would reappear.

And why McMillan can't do that?!

That's sorta my question...

I wonder if you can order an inletted Pound'r unpainted, do the glass work, send it back for paint like McM.

I've owned one Brown rifle, gave it to a good friend. It wasn't a Pound'r.

DF

That probably has a lot to do with it, but if there ever was a catastrophic failure, im sure the fire would have been one of the first to hear about it. We have a way of weeding things out around here. My thought is there was too many complaints of the graphite resonating too much, during recoil.

Totally different process. Brown uses kevlar, while McMillan uses a graphite shell. You tell me which is best. Or maybe ill lead and say the brown is much better. If McMillan was smart, they would change their whole process. Get their weights down and use better materials. However, there has always been a market for "edge" filled McMillan stocks, even though i dont prefer them. They will shoot themselves in the foot by making them heavier.

There are a few of us who’ve spoken with Echols and he mentioned a couple cases where the EDGE shell and fill was reacting poorly with 300 Wby and larger jugged cases. So he has an EDGE shell and standard fill he recommends for those uses. I don’t know either way but the man has considerable experience building accurate and probably damned near perfect hunting rifles so I’ve stuck with his advice. I’ve used a few of the EDGE shell and standard fills and have been nothing but happy with them. I know for a fact he’s frustrated with McMillan making stocks that aren’t the same way each and every time.

Yeah, i bet.

What’s your Brown weigh on your 338 BSA? I may bite the bullet for a PoundR.

Not BSA, but the last Pound’r I bought the blank was 15.8 ounces. 22 ounces finished.

You know this, but the guy doing your stock work needs to be careful with the Bondo otherwise the brown kevlar can gain some weight. Brown blanks are pretty rough!

That’s good info Rick.

Are they so rough that a couple coats of primer with sanding won't smooth them up?

DF

I emailed some pics of kevlar and fibreglass blanks to Scotty, perhaps he can post them.

When I first got it, it was light as a feather. With glass bedding, glazing putty, paint, and red pachmayr recoil pad, it weighs in at 22 Oz's. Like Rick's stock. It sure mitigates recoil on my 338 though. It is a lot of money, but then again you are getting a lot for what you are paying for. Its a damn near bullet proof stock that you will never have to worry about and it is very light, even at 22 oz's..

On mine, I just used a little primer, spot glazing putty and the paint I use covers up a lot as well. I prefer a texture type paint, but then go over it with clear for protection.

Yeah, I believe I need to try one.

I am wishing now I had taken more photos. The outside of the shell isn’t too bad on a Brown, but the areas that are cut like the action inlet and the floor plate and the end of the butt? They can be really rough with gaps and voids that need filled.

Rick, I bought mine used on the pre 64 338wm. So in all honesty, maybe the original owner did most of the hard work for me. When i went to prep it for paint, it didn't need much in the way of body filler. If I were to use body filler, though, I'd look at the lightweight body filler personally. That stuff is so much lighter than regular ol "bondo". When I was power sanding my Brown PoundR, I hit the kevlar in a few spots and that's where I ened up using the glazing putty. I wish I would have taken more pics as well:


Sorry, I know this thread isn't about the Brown PoundR, but it seems like these stocks get brought into the conversation when we are talking good strong lightweight stocks...

I’ll get Ricks pics up once I get home.


Won’t Brown fit and bed the stock for you if you send it to them?

I think Bob used Alex Sittman if I remember right for his P64’s.

Alex Sitman @ Master Class stocks does do great work. I have had him bed several of my rifles and also do some other stock work. 1st class gentleman and does a really fine job for a reasonable price.

Good word, thank you. I’ve never had him do a rifle but I believe I’d like to try him out. Bob had nothing but great things to say about him.

Yes, last I heard Brown will fit your barreled action. Price is pretty stiff though. I found some more pics of my Brown. Rick is right, they are pretty rough on the inside, but I really don't care about what people can't see. As long as its solid and the bedding/platform is excellent, who gives a chidt? Here are some pics...:



Pretty rough, but the mag box doesn't complain. Yes, I painted the inside of the stock too, after glass bedding. It still shoots pretty good though..


I think what I'm trying to get at is I care more about how the rifle fit up looks on the outside and how stable the glass bedding/foundation is:




Sorry about the crappy pic, but this was the weight of the rifle after all the work was done: Paint, cerakote, recoil pad, glass bedding, aluminum "fwt" bottom metal, etc... That's a pre 64 H&H action with 24" stainless 338wm barrel, for those that don't know..

That’s a great looking rifle.

My only caution would be not so much that they are rough and don’t look so pretty when you get them, but by the time you fill some voids and what have you the ounces can creep up.

Edited to add: the last BP stocks I ordered, a Kevlar and a fiberglass, my leaky memory recalls that they were about 5 ounces difference in weight as blanks. The Kevlar definitely takes more fill and more time to finish. Keeping in mind that we are paying a premium for the Kevlar stock, not to mention higher finishing costs if you hire a stock guy, if the stock guy is not careful and starts to make up that 5 ounce difference in weight finishing the Kevlar, it raises the question of is it worth it to go Kevlar in the first place. Kevlar is definitely stiffer, but you could argue that being stiffer it doesn’t soak up recoil as well as fibreglass which theoretically flexes a bit. All sorts of mental masturbation on this issue!

That's good to know Rick and true. Something guys need to be aware of, for sure..

It will. I just sold one and it was 18oz in the nose. Incredibly light! Mine was a short action.

not precisely true.



IIRC, Kevlar Pounder is layed up differently,
being single layer construction.
McM. carbon and glass use multi-layer.

Kevlar gets it's strength through continuous fibers
and I believe Brown's technique employs continuous
Single layer.

So Kevlar (done correctly) , delivers something unique.
in that it provides a combo of lightweight, strength-durability
and stiffness, that you won't get from carbon
or glass in single layer or at the same weight.

NULA stocks are Kevlar reinforced with carbon,
just like Brown uses carbon to stiffen their stocks.

Yes, they are.I have some earlier ones that weigh 32 -34 oz.Now they are 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 pounds.

Getting them to finish and paint puts it out of my comfort zone.

Getting the inletted blank, doing the work myself keeps it in my price range.

Paying a premium for that last 5-6 oz.

DF

I was looking to buy a Pounder in 1989 for my
.300 Roy, and 30 yrs later nothing has changed
in that BP still only offers the two options of;
a rough blank or totally finished product.



D'Arcy has McM do the inlet for a customers order,
but experience has taught him to have them sent to
his shop for inspection prior to being sent to the customer.

Totally finished is too much for me. I may could justify an inletted blank.

I’ve had a good bit of experience with McM. I get them inletted, do the glass work, return for paint. Just costs shipping one way.

DF

As well it should. A good friend recently paid to have his barreled action inlet when he ordered his stock. Got it back and it left a lot to be desired! For what it cost, it should have been perfect!

This is the way to go on Micky’s IMO. I also no longer order finished stocks. I always ended up having to do something to the barrel channel or bottom metal inlet to get it right, then trying to match their paint. PITA. Inlet the bugger, I’ll tweak the fit and bed, send back for paint.

Whoever inletted the Legand stock I used for my 404J Williams bottle metal did a perfect job. Didn’t know he used McM, but it was perfection. Dropped in with zero gap. Top side inletting was as good.

McM says mag fill for the .404J. Got it std fill with pillars and cross pins. D’Arcy said that would work. It did, but I did Steel Bed the recoil lug. I used a SS M-70 300 RUM for the donor. Worked out well.

D’Arcy is very easy to work with, is a stickler for details and quality.

DF

Exactly what mine weighs on my 375 H&H M70.

Mr.Brown himself talked me out of Kevlar
by suggesting he could go through his
inventory of glass blanks and find one that
was lighter than normal. (ie: take advantage
of variation in weights that occur in production)
Basically he said you can reduce the diff to a couple
ounces and save yourself the hassle of trying to
finish a Kevlar blank.
I took his advice and also requested 'extra carbon'
option in the forearm.. The blank was impressively
light and stiff. (but had they offered a filled/primed
Pounder option, I would have got one).

The pad I fitted was a Pachmayr 500B
the lightest thinnest I could find at the time.
(approx 6 oz. before grinding)
Now days you can get these 2 Oz. babies!
https://www.hastingsdistribution.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=60

Re: recoil/stiffness, Kevlar is a compromise
between carbon and glass [ less elastic than glass
but more elastic than carbon]
while having higher strength than both.

*****

Although we often discuss different composite fibres,
what is usually ignored are the type of resins used.

Depending on whether one uses vinyl-ester (modified epoxy)
or polyester, mechanical properties like elasticity will vary.
Vinyl ester resins are a polyester backbone molecule with
an epoxy component and considerably more elastic.

composite technology is always improving-changing
but we don't see it in rifle stocks.

Thanks for the Hastings link. Looks interesting.

DF

McMillan aint the only game in town

Yes indeed. I had been looking for these recently and couldn’t find them. Appreciate it.

And in RED!!!

https://www.hastingsdistribution.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=368

That must have been my luck! I have a std. Brown on my .338 Win Mag that I have hunted hard for the past 19 yrs and I have had zero issues. I have had a few rodeos in the mtns a few times and that stock is still rock solid!

My Brown stock painted, bedded with pillars and a 1" Decelerator weighs 26 ozs. I guess I got lucky for once. Here is a couple pics: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/14915584#Post14915584

Yes: “ Stock weighs 22-26 ounces depending on action cut out.”

https://mcmillanusa.com/product/hunters-edge-remington/

Even Greyboe now offers a lightweight stock that they say weighs 25 ozs! You would think the Edge stocks could do better???

https://grayboe.com/shop/lightweight-25oz-outlander/

How would you rate High Tech Specialist / LAW (Legendary Action works) stocks?

In weight and strength?

Didn't McMillan run a statement that there was no edge fill any longer only standard. Or was it that there wasn't an edge fill. Sorry if this was posted previously didn't read the entire thread.

They remind me of a fat brown pundR. I don't like them.. and yes, I tried to use them...


The one I had, was a biotch as far as fitting to my action. Had to bust the dremel out and it took some time to get things to line up right. Sure, epoxy finalized everything, but damn was it a pita to fit... Moreso than any other stock I've dealt with.. One good thing I can say about it was the ergo's were great for shooting off the bench. The design and material/construction really helped to soak up recoil..

Mark Bansner has his new stock available for the m70. After speaking with him it sounds like there will be far less fitting required; almost a drop in. I can’t comment on weight or strength but I’m looking forward to finding out.

I don’t believe this is correct. If it is I am owed a significant refund on my last order!

McMillan site info:

Edge Tech - is our ultra light stock. It is made out of graphite cloth, not fiberglass. Edge Tech is the lightest we can make a stock pattern. The hunters edge stock pattern can get down to as little as 23 ounces. Because of its lightweight, it cannot have any adjustable hardware installed and must be painted. It is not recommended for magnum calibers and this fill cannot be used for any caliber above a .300 win mag.

The statement I was confused about was that you can't get edge fill in the standard stock or the so called Mt. Rifle fill.