This term gets used regularly here and while I think I understand it, is there a proper definition available? I does appear to me (from my reading and my reviews of Modell 99s on the various internet sites where they are listed for sale) that the "condition" of any variant is almost more important than the actual model and chambering. Clearly, rarity and chamberings are a factor in the desirability of a specific weapon but... condition perhaps is even more-important, and "originality" seems to have become a significant factor for these firearms as well. Is a properly refinished gun as good as an "original" gun, or is that a big strike against it as far as value to a Model 99 collector is concerned?

From my own perspective, I'm a "user" and not a collector. My guns are (hopefully) "beautiful" in that they're in good, useable condition, with no damage (i.e. cracks, dings or dents) and the proper finishes in place to protect them from the elements during said use. If a gun is "too-nice" or accordingly, "too-valuable" then it's utility to me is somewhat diminished because I'll worry about something happening to it during use. Clearly, a "collector" will see things differently. Guns to me are "tools" as much as they might be "art" and if I can't use them without worry, then I'm not sure I've got the right one. At that point, I'd almost rather have a nice, practical "grey rat".

The definition of a gray rat is very subjective.

i have lots of grey rats , some become parts guns to help those that can be repaired. Some problems 1 half inch cut off the barrel, sight collectors taking off good original sights and putting on whatever, look at SRC and carbines some long guns ,if they have been in a scabbard on a saddle ,, horses fall love to rub on fence posts and trees so broken or cracked stocks. truck guns barn guns , they all had their uses and served their owners.

Some of these can be repaired some cant , wood dries out cracks , chips ,some need new stock there are great guys that do wonders with wood repairs.
cant fix a short barrel.

So some grey rats make good shooters , some parts guns . some that are hard to replace because of limited availability have value just because their sisters are all locked up in safes, .They just dont make them anymore.

A few things that we do know, up to ser no 1,000,000, there is a number gap from Marlin manufacture to Savage manufacture. another gap in1947 to 48 with the move to Westfield and another hugh gap in the 800,000 range. then take in consideration of parts guns , I have somewhere nearly 20 receivers and have given 5 to my stock maker and i think 3 to David Royal. How many others have been disassembled, lost in accidents ,fires .floods, lost in wars. I may be off base but i will guess that we have less than 700,000 guns left and how many of them are so modified as no longer viable as original .

Calhoun and others smarter guys chime in and correct any miscalculations or information.
Norm

I personally don't like the term and don't use it. Although it's probably just part of the vernacular for most/some by now, my mind equates it with snobbery from people who seem to have a [bleep] ton of money to spend on high end guns, and think only people who acquire said high end guns are collectors. While I have high end guns of different makes in my collection, I have more that were used for their intended purpose. The ones that got used are at least just as interesting to me as ones that never served or served very little.

On the other hand the gray rat thinking works out for me. I love to work on, fix, etc old rifles and people thinking these guns are almost worthless makes it so I can obtain projects and parts. A gun has to be in pretty sorry shape before I'll go monkeying around with it.

Gray rat - one missing most of the original blue on the receiver.

They still work though.

"Grey rat" is a description of the way a gun looks, not the way it performs.

Nobody should misunderstand the term "Grey rat" as a description of it's usefulness....

Calhoun: Nice buck! You Sir have innumerable postings (both here and elsewhere) on this particular subject, and while I have largely found your input to be very well-reasoned and cogent, this one I'm afraid does not fit my pre-conceptions about the general meaning of the expression "grey rat". The rifle in question (your .300 EG?) looks to me to be a very honest example of the species. Perhaps a bit worn, but not displaying the usual tell-tale signs of abuse and neglect. I've seen lots of "boney" and used-up equipment in my time and that weapon is simply-not a representative example, per my present (& possibly inaccurate) understanding.

Am I being too-literal here or are you simply showing me the upper-end of the spectrum?

Probably more what I had envisioned...

Personally, nice shiny new rifles hold no charms for me. No mystery. No wondering " Where have you been? What have you done?"The finish worn but still mechanically excellent, aka gray rats, ooze history and provoke curiosity and wonder.
I once held an original London Armoury P53 Enfield rifle musket. 1862 production, with the proper markings for Confederate issue. My reenactment group, E Co. 1st Texas Volunteer Infantry, was issued such rifle muskets. When I saw the markings, well, I could've grabbed a live power line and got less of a jolt. Oh DARLIN'! Where have you been? What have you seen and done?!
This is why I keep a notebook for all my rifles. Their history will be known.

A gray rat doesn't have to be rusted or banged up, it just has to be missing a lot of the bluing on the receiver. Mine is definitely missing most of the blue, and it does actually have a couple dings in it. It just photographs well.

Here's another gray rat. This one has more discoloration to the receiver.

That is not what people would generally refer to as a grey rat, although technically fitting the description.

I would call a Grey Rat any rifle that shows a lot of signs of use but with no abuse. A well worn gun with honest wear. With that, I'd expect the finish to reflect the definition, a lot of blue loss with corresponding wear on the stocks, i.e., worn checkering and finish. However, I would reject serious issues like pitting on the exterior and bore and serious gouges, dings, dents and cracks in the wood as those guns likely have one foot in the scrapyard. I would also reject radical modifications and refinishes by previous owners. I might not reject things like added scopes and sling swivels if the work was well executed and reflected practical modifications for the period in which they were done. Again, a Grey Rat is a description of existing condition for any rifle that show signs of honest use by previous owners and not abuse. A good honest used gun with a lot of miles left in it but lacking that "shine" that would attract the attention of serious collectors.

Agreed.

While it might be subjective, there certainly is nothing wrong with forming an opinion in the quest of providing an honest answer to an honest question. If I was going to a gun show and asked a buddy what I would be looking for if I wanted to find a good deal on a Grey Rat and he answered by saying its subjective then I would not consider that very helpful advice. Everything under the sun is subjective but somehow we manage to form opinions on the vast majority of it all. And with that, giving words to the defenition of something as minor as a Grey Rat is no big shakes and well worth the effort put into expressing it.

Did we not have a list of different rats tagged somewhere?

Is this an argument on what a grey rat actually is?

Rory basically nailed it, lots of bluing missing, no more, no less, that’s what it is.

There was also a wood rat, hybrid rat, etc etc.

AAHHhhhhhh (just kidding)

Yeah, it was formulated here waaaay back around the time I enlisted here 17 years ago. (I'm retiring when I get my 20 years in, haha!) Thought it had been made a sticky?

...fixed it for Ya Rory,..

Haha! Thanks for the chuckle, Jeff! About 450 years of accumulated gun wisdom (BS?) represented there. "The Gray Rat Society"

Grey rat from my perspective

Hee hee..

Found the darned thing. Miss RAM.

There ya go. And a mighty fine collection too!

It's been pretty well covered. I'll add, just because it's grey, doesn't mean it's not desirable. My 1902 Enoch Tue engraved rifle is "Greyer" than Rory's, but I find it desirable. I bet if the receiver was as blue as the barrel, I wouldn't have it.

I remember that posting but thought it was a Mad_Dog creation. (Ross emailed me the other day to see if I was still alive.)

I couldn't remember whose it was, but was sure it wasn't Mad_Dog's. It wasn't sarcastic enough to be Joe's.

To continue on the peripheral subject of originality:

I have an 1899 that letters as having been back to Savage four times, with nothing on the work orders to indicate what was done, except the first, which indicates a change of sights. The barrel is an obvious replacement, as it is later threads and address. The blue, wood, and bore are all in acceptable condition. What is it worth?

Considerations:
It is a first year 250
It has deluxe wood and checkering, with no cracks.
The bolt and lever are engine turned.
All serial numbers on metal and wood match.
All of the work orders reference the consignee, a prominent Republican politician and business man in Utica
The original consignee was J. DePew Lynch, at the time Corporate Secretary of Savage, and a man instrumental in screwing his fellow stockholders in the Seabury transaction

How do the work orders and apparent lack of originality affect the value of the rifle?

The additional work orders likely explain the non-originality.
Drag 'er along to Savage Fest and we'll have a look.

I'll stop by on Saturday and we can fix it.

Is that when you get your pension round here? 20 years and out?

Ross pops in less than me, glad to hear he’s still on this planet!

I was gonna say it was his post long ago but was only 99%.

You get a pin at 25 yrs and an urn for your ashes at 35 yrs with a plaque the states "Savage Grey Rat".

Coming up on the pin but I'll probably need the urn sooner. Oh, and I really miss Ramm. His comments could really piss some people off but his posts about 99s were pretty much always spot on. And life goes on. Sorry, I should have started another thread.

And to Mad dog, sorry I sent the cigar and airplane bottle of Scotch in the package. Wasn't trying to get you busted. Just wanted to show you some apprecation. Again,life goes on. And again, off topic.

YOU my friend are NEVER off topic about ANYTHING.

I hadn't thought much about this subject. I would have considered this rifle a gray rat but I believe it is worn or abused beyond this category. Bore isn't too hot either. Opinions on whether or not it's a gray rat would be appreciated.





I think it's cool that the Sweetwater County Sheriff's office had it at one time. The guy I got it from said he got it from a county impound auction. I wouldn't part this one out for that reason. It is also 1899 production, serial number 10.7XX.

I think that one is what the BATF had in mind when they established the C & R license.

David i would say just a RAT !!! But very early 1899

Was Frank Mahoney a local bad guy? Looks like several of the outlaw guns they have in Craig, Colorado at their Museum of the West (well-worth the stop, BTW).

I couldn't find anything on the internet about Mahoney. He had to do something wrong to get his rifle confiscated.

Yeah, I think that one exceeded the threshold. I would have to say that the GR classification should encompass working rifles and anything that didn't work couldn't be included. And I would have to include bad barrels in the "it didn't work" catagory. Grey Rats are users.

He didn't say the rifle was unable, just that the bore isn't too hot. I have rifles that don't have great bores but they will still group under 4" at 100 yards.

No he didn't. I made that conclusion. But I always put bore condition at the top of the list in accessing the usefulness of a firearm. But this is just rhetoric put forth for the sake of arguement in defining what this thing is we call a "Grey Rat", and the bore is just part of my criteria. But I think we are all guilty of acquiring firearms with less that desirable characteristics and gawd knows I've had a few tucked in the back of the "safe" myself. The disease runs deep!

Maybe it's a dead rat. I am not inclined to shoot something that rough.

Put it in a gun vise, tie a string around the trigger, hide behind the car, and let 'er rip. 😏

I did that with a questionable 50-70 Springfield for a friend one time after I had cleaned it up and procured him some ammo for him. It didn't blow up after a few shots, but I still wouldn't have wanted my face close to it. He's still alive and has all his digits, so it must not have been as bad as it looked.

call it a well used well abused grey rat. If only it could talk and tell us what it did for its first 100 years , how many ranches it visited ,how moch game did it bring down ,
, was it left out in the weather or in the barn wet ? did it become a truck gun ?

I have a 38-55 TD ser no 70xxx not as bad as yours, came out of cattle country a well used tool.

what caliber David

Or, if not too far gone, then maybe its time to tickle that fancy for restoring a 99. Heck, it looks like there are a fair number of smiths out there who make good trade on restoring Winchesters and Marlins, so why not a 99? Done right, it would give the old rifle a new lease on life.

Here's another twist on restoration. You are a Hot Rod kind of guy. Get it back in good working order and call it a Rat Rod!

I always chuckle when hearing of "tying a long string on it to fire it". Sure, it may well sustain firing a couple shots that way, but what about subsequent shots out of a dodgy gun with your eyeball 6 inches behind the cartridge? "Do you feel lucky, Punk? Well, do ya?"

As I said in my previous post, I sure wouldn't shoot the thing, but he wanted to know if it was capable of firing without blowing up, which it was that day 🤷‍♂️ As loose as the hinge was and as worn as the locking lobe looked, I think the odds of it going kablooey eventually were pretty high if it gets shot much.

I don't know how much (or at all) he has shot it, aside from a few rounds that day after it didn't explode after those few string shots. That's been probably 15 years ago now.

I can't mess with it. It's probably got a great history. It's perfectly happy sitting between serial # 10.4xx and serial number 15.7xx. Those two qualify as gray rats. 15.7xx has a 1/4" S stamped on the bottom of the receiver and 210 stamped on the right side of the barrel. Possibly a sheriff's department rifle? A search of the area it from per the historian letter didn't turn anything up.
Norm, all 3 are 303's.