Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Definition of a "grey rat"

This term gets used regularly here and while I think I understand it, is there a proper definition available? I does appear to me (from my reading and my reviews of Modell 99s on the various internet sites where they are listed for sale) that the "condition" of any variant is almost more important than the actual model and chambering. Clearly, rarity and chamberings are a factor in the desirability of a specific weapon but... condition perhaps is even more-important, and "originality" seems to have become a significant factor for these firearms as well. Is a properly refinished gun as good as an "original" gun, or is that a big strike against it as far as value to a Model 99 collector is concerned?

From my own perspective, I'm a "user" and not a collector. My guns are (hopefully) "beautiful" in that they're in good, useable condition, with no damage (i.e. cracks, dings or dents) and the proper finishes in place to protect them from the elements during said use. If a gun is "too-nice" or accordingly, "too-valuable" then it's utility to me is somewhat diminished because I'll worry about something happening to it during use. Clearly, a "collector" will see things differently. Guns to me are "tools" as much as they might be "art" and if I can't use them without worry, then I'm not sure I've got the right one. At that point, I'd almost rather have a nice, practical "grey rat".

The definition of a gray rat is very subjective.

i have lots of grey rats , some become parts guns to help those that can be repaired. Some problems 1 half inch cut off the barrel, sight collectors taking off good original sights and putting on whatever, look at SRC and carbines some long guns ,if they have been in a scabbard on a saddle ,, horses fall love to rub on fence posts and trees so broken or cracked stocks. truck guns barn guns , they all had their uses and served their owners.

Some of these can be repaired some cant , wood dries out cracks , chips ,some need new stock there are great guys that do wonders with wood repairs.
cant fix a short barrel.

So some grey rats make good shooters , some parts guns . some that are hard to replace because of limited availability have value just because their sisters are all locked up in safes, .They just dont make them anymore.

A few things that we do know, up to ser no 1,000,000, there is a number gap from Marlin manufacture to Savage manufacture. another gap in1947 to 48 with the move to Westfield and another hugh gap in the 800,000 range. then take in consideration of parts guns , I have somewhere nearly 20 receivers and have given 5 to my stock maker and i think 3 to David Royal. How many others have been disassembled, lost in accidents ,fires .floods, lost in wars. I may be off base but i will guess that we have less than 700,000 guns left and how many of them are so modified as no longer viable as original .

Calhoun and others smarter guys chime in and correct any miscalculations or information.
Norm

I personally don't like the term and don't use it. Although it's probably just part of the vernacular for most/some by now, my mind equates it with snobbery from people who seem to have a [bleep] ton of money to spend on high end guns, and think only people who acquire said high end guns are collectors. While I have high end guns of different makes in my collection, I have more that were used for their intended purpose. The ones that got used are at least just as interesting to me as ones that never served or served very little.

On the other hand the gray rat thinking works out for me. I love to work on, fix, etc old rifles and people thinking these guns are almost worthless makes it so I can obtain projects and parts. A gun has to be in pretty sorry shape before I'll go monkeying around with it.

Gray rat - one missing most of the original blue on the receiver.

They still work though.

"Grey rat" is a description of the way a gun looks, not the way it performs.

Nobody should misunderstand the term "Grey rat" as a description of it's usefulness....

Calhoun: Nice buck! You Sir have innumerable postings (both here and elsewhere) on this particular subject, and while I have largely found your input to be very well-reasoned and cogent, this one I'm afraid does not fit my pre-conceptions about the general meaning of the expression "grey rat". The rifle in question (your .300 EG?) looks to me to be a very honest example of the species. Perhaps a bit worn, but not displaying the usual tell-tale signs of abuse and neglect. I've seen lots of "boney" and used-up equipment in my time and that weapon is simply-not a representative example, per my present (& possibly inaccurate) understanding.

Am I being too-literal here or are you simply showing me the upper-end of the spectrum?

Probably more what I had envisioned...

Personally, nice shiny new rifles hold no charms for me. No mystery. No wondering " Where have you been? What have you done?"The finish worn but still mechanically excellent, aka gray rats, ooze history and provoke curiosity and wonder.
I once held an original London Armoury P53 Enfield rifle musket. 1862 production, with the proper markings for Confederate issue. My reenactment group, E Co. 1st Texas Volunteer Infantry, was issued such rifle muskets. When I saw the markings, well, I could've grabbed a live power line and got less of a jolt. Oh DARLIN'! Where have you been? What have you seen and done?!
This is why I keep a notebook for all my rifles. Their history will be known.

A gray rat doesn't have to be rusted or banged up, it just has to be missing a lot of the bluing on the receiver. Mine is definitely missing most of the blue, and it does actually have a couple dings in it. It just photographs well.

Here's another gray rat. This one has more discoloration to the receiver.

That is not what people would generally refer to as a grey rat, although technically fitting the description.

I would call a Grey Rat any rifle that shows a lot of signs of use but with no abuse. A well worn gun with honest wear. With that, I'd expect the finish to reflect the definition, a lot of blue loss with corresponding wear on the stocks, i.e., worn checkering and finish. However, I would reject serious issues like pitting on the exterior and bore and serious gouges, dings, dents and cracks in the wood as those guns likely have one foot in the scrapyard. I would also reject radical modifications and refinishes by previous owners. I might not reject things like added scopes and sling swivels if the work was well executed and reflected practical modifications for the period in which they were done. Again, a Grey Rat is a description of existing condition for any rifle that show signs of honest use by previous owners and not abuse. A good honest used gun with a lot of miles left in it but lacking that "shine" that would attract the attention of serious collectors.

Agreed.

While it might be subjective, there certainly is nothing wrong with forming an opinion in the quest of providing an honest answer to an honest question. If I was going to a gun show and asked a buddy what I would be looking for if I wanted to find a good deal on a Grey Rat and he answered by saying its subjective then I would not consider that very helpful advice. Everything under the sun is subjective but somehow we manage to form opinions on the vast majority of it all. And with that, giving words to the defenition of something as minor as a Grey Rat is no big shakes and well worth the effort put into expressing it.

Did we not have a list of different rats tagged somewhere?

Is this an argument on what a grey rat actually is?

Rory basically nailed it, lots of bluing missing, no more, no less, that’s what it is.

There was also a wood rat, hybrid rat, etc etc.

AAHHhhhhhh (just kidding)

Yeah, it was formulated here waaaay back around the time I enlisted here 17 years ago. (I'm retiring when I get my 20 years in, haha!) Thought it had been made a sticky?

...fixed it for Ya Rory,..

Haha! Thanks for the chuckle, Jeff! About 450 years of accumulated gun wisdom (BS?) represented there. "The Gray Rat Society"

Grey rat from my perspective

Hee hee..

Found the darned thing. Miss RAM.