Lacking experience that most here have, I’m looking for a bit of guidance as to what are reasonable expectations.

All of my rifles have always been scoped. I’m wondering, using iron sights, out to what range are you confident of making a clean shot? Include your age, that matters! 😉😋

That's a really loaded question... lots of factors in play there, like your target, shooting and weather conditons, cartridge and load.

Off a bench, I can plink steel plates all day at 200yds with my any of my 99s as long as it's not a real windy day. With something like the 45 Colt, 100 yards is reaching just because there is so much bullet drop. On a windy day, those distances shorten considerably.

Out in the field is an entirely different ballgame... from field positions, 40-125 yards depending on the cartridge, target, and weather.

With a good receiver sight, I feel like I can shoot up to 200 yards.

Iron sights more like 100.

I don't know that age matters. If you are 65 and have good eyesight that's better than being 25 and blind.

100 yards

Offhand? Sights, iron or glass make no difference at all. It's all on the man's ability. I will admit with the iron sights in full sun and the deer in the shade can be a challenge...but you will instantly know that when the glare on the front sight obscures the target. Of the years that I shot competition in NRA Sporting Rifle High Power, I'd guess 5% of shooters could hold 8 shots in a 7 inch ring at 200 yards. Maybe 70% of the shooters could put 8 shots in the aiming black which is about 13 inches. I'd say put up a paper plate, whang away at a hundred, if you can keep 4 out 4 on the plate move it out until you can't. I shoot a .300 Savage 1920 bolt with aperture rear, offhand, in good light, I would consider roughly 150 yards as my limit. I am 76 now and I don't hunt to kill, I hunt for meat and will not take hail mary shots. Quick, clean, one and done.

With peep sights, I sometimes shoot better groups than with high end scopes. Not always, but when it happens, I love seeing tiny groups with iron sights.

I am 64, open sights are still workable for me, but I would draw the line at 100 yards max now. That said, virtually everything I hunt is around 100 yards or less these days.

This season, I am going to try out 2 new Aimpoint Nano red dot sights. On paper, and messing around, they appear to be a solution for aging eyes and easily get on target at 100 yards rapidly. I do not think longer shots would be out of the question.

Well let’s me honest, most of us lose our strong eyesight as we age..most of us, not all of us. In my 50’s mine started degrading, at 60 a little worse.

I can shoot the 1899 in 38-55 with it's 26" barrel 150 yards no problem in daylight. Short barreled guns give me fits w/o optics.

I can still line up pretty good with any sight arrangement

Depends on the gun/sights and lighting as others have said. As a general rule 150-200 yards with an optimal receiver sight/front bead combo on a 24" barreled hunting rifle, in glaring daylight. Probably only 100 yards or so on a rainy day. Open sights? Dunno, I haven't tried shooting with one of those since the last century, except for 1903 Springfields but that's a topic of conversation for those with a masochistic bent.

The longer the distance to the front sight, the easier it is to see a relatively sharp front sight bead along with a focused target. A 26" barrel has an advantage over a 24", and a 30" barrel has an advantage over that. It's why most top tier target rifles had 28-32" barrels 120 years ago, that and the added weight forward balance needed for accurate offhand shooting. The rear aperture does a lot to help keep the all-important front sight and target in focus, but it's always a compromise in terms of lighting adaptation and need for more focus.

I don't know about other old dinosaurs, but surprisingly after 40 yrs of aperture rear...I find myself getting better groups with leaf sights, wide and deep with lots of light spilling around the edges, mounted well forward on the barrel, and a great big front post similar in dimension to the M14. IOW, something very similar to a Patridge pistol sight pattern or the old "California Sights" found on muzzle loaders built in the 1840's, 50's and 60's. Combining that with a high contrast Vee target, I can reach a level of precision suitable for evaluating load development. Might be worth a try if you are having trouble...you need not modify the rifle just to see if it will work for you...one of those neonidium magnets makes a quick and dirty sight base with a little JB weld to hold a leaf in place and a blob on the front sight to file to custom width with a dead true flat rear face. Under ideal light and dead calm I am getting fairly consistent, maybe 40% chest size hits at 600 yards with cast bullets in a trapdoor (never exactly the benchresters first choice of rifles).

Whew. Those buggers can shoot, actually. I watched a guy make some astonishing groups and scores at 200 yards in a blackpowder military rifle relay at our three day Schuetzenfest this past weekend - with a M1884 trapdoor .45-70 and Buffington rear sight, with black powder and plain base 500 grain cast bullets. 2 1/2" groups and scores in the 240-ish out of 250 region, on the German 25-ring target, benchrested.

As others have said, it depends. 150 yards generally with open sights, further with an aperture, but again rifle and cartridge matters.



400 with a Sharps 45/70 and a very steady rest.

I should amend my statement that my abilities at any distance are dependent on some kind of rest, even if it's just a tree trunk. If I had to rely on my bolloxed up posture to attempt a shot completely off my hind legs, substitute the word "feet" for "yards" in my assessment! I got my shooting eye fixed and can actually see sights again, but my scoliosis remains.

There's a guy I once saw shoot a pinwheel (dead center) with an iron sighted Savage. I wonder if he's still around?

Where I hunt, I want to be at a 100 or less no matter what the optics or sights I am using. The longest shot on my property is 140 yards. At that distance I would like to use the scope.

I could probably do more with the receiver sight than I’m comfortable with now.

But I don’t like losing deer. Ever.

If my gun goes bang, you can bet the mortgage payment I got him.

Back in the day, 200 yards was a chip shot. 600 to maybe 650 was a good probable. That was 35 - 40 years ago. These days maybe 150 unless it's running. Things change. Life goes on.

Without a scope? Wouldn't your front sight completely block out a deer at 600yds?

With my 250, 250 yards, but that’s the longest I’ve practiced with. 2X7 Redfield set on 4X.

Not if you sighted in using a 6 O'clock hold.

Before Lasix……

I could see the back sight, front sight, target.

Pick two!

Never could see all three.

After lasix….

Now I can see them all. I generally shoot my iron sights about 50 to 80 yards off hand.

On a bench I will shoot 100 yards.

Bingo! It's the way I was taught, and all disciplines I'm aware of teach now. When sighting in I place the shot group at the bottom of the bullseye not the center so the bullet strikes an animal right at where the top of the front sight indicates. Center bullseye hits are only useful when shooting scores in competition. Why would one willingly blot out his target with a front sight bead?

600 yard shots at deer, with iron sights? Huh uh. Nope. No way. Way too much room for error, with a huge chance of missing or wounding the animal - unethical in the extreme IMO. Factoring in wind and atmospheric conditions is tough enough with a good scope let alone iron sights, even if the gun was carefully zero'ed in at that distance. As always, a hunter's hind legs are the best substitute for long range schidt shots - get closer and make a clean kill or make it a "one that got away" story.

The 6 hold was an asbolute game changer for me, and I came into it relatively late. I had always struggled shooting irons much beyond 30-40 yards when I was younger because I always obscured the target with the post like a dunce. I was 30, maybe 32-ish before I saw the light 😬 My Dad had always been a scope guy, so most stuff I'd shot growing up was scoped and sights were just a sort of minor secondary consideration or inconvenience.

Once I tried 6 o clock zero, it was a whole new world, and I strongly prefer sights to optics now. Of all my rifles, only 2 have optics, and one is a recent acquisition that wasn't available with sights. Now that I know it shoots, I'm probably going to end up getting a front ramp on it and pitch the scope sooner or later.

Interesting, thanks

6 o'clock hold = pumpkin on a fence post. Good way to go for iron's

I’m missing something, by 6:00 hold, you mean putting the bead of your sight just below your intended target? So you sight in intentionally setting your rifle to shoot a few inches higher than your sight bead?

Cool, I didn't know it was called a 6 o'clock hold. I just thought that's how you were supposed to do it. Another thing my dad taught me when teaching me how to hunt/shoot.

Yes, you put the top of your bead/blade right at the bottom of your bullseye/spot/target so you aren't obstructing the view, and your POI at the zeroed distance is the bullseye.

150 YARDS OR LESS

Well, yes, if you sight in a couple inches higher than the bottom edge of a bullseye (where the top of your front sight bead/post/etc. rests when employing a 6 o'clock hold, put the top of the sight right on the bottom of the bullseye) - say by doing so at 100 yards in case you attempt a shot at 200 yards where the trajectory of the bullet will fall back to point of aim. (Check/know the ballistics of your bullet beforehand to confirm this trajectory.) Otherwise, for general hunting in thick woods for example, just adjust your sight to put your hits right at where the top of the bead/post points. After going through that exercise you will have a cluster of hits right on the bottom of your bullseye.

Hint: use a big darned bullseye to shoot at if your eyeballs have some age to them.

The six o’clock hold …….its really neat……..


Cuz if you use it ……..U get some meat ! 🥩

Good hunting!

There is a young hunter named Angus
whose exploits are well known among us.
He draws a fine bead,
with a wee bit of lead,
and his deer drops with zero awareness.

600 yards with open sights?

Calling total f’n bullsheet on that.

Carlos Hathcock with his bull barrel model 70 with 8x Unertl

Ok

My bad. I just glanced at it and and thought we were just talking about the longest shot. Yeah, I was using a scope and I wasn't shooting at deer back in the day. Longest shot I ever made with iron sites was about 450 with an M1 I'd never shot before when the designated sniper, for whatever reason, wouldn't take the shot. [bleep] happens.

OK So I want to sight in at 100 yds, so I set the bead for the bottom of the bullseye at 100yds, but still want the shot to hit the center of the bullseye?

300 to 400 yds easily. I spent time each summer, shooting at small ground squirrels out to 200 yds, and like this past summer,
spend time ringing steel at 300 and 400 yds with a bolt action 223....with a powder charge of 10 grains of Unique and 50 and 55 grain bullets.

Guess I went thru around 900 to a 1000 rounds or more between May and September of this year....

out there at 300 yds, with that practice and time shooting ground squirrels, come deer season, a deer seems the size of a dump truck out there.
and a flatter shooting cartridge, that what I practice with all summer, make that a lot easier....

This is probably the rule for deer hunters east of the Mississippi valley including me. Exceptions exist and West is another story.

No. If you are sighting in for 100 yards put your target at 100 yards, put your bead at 6 o'clock, adjust rear sight until your shots land at 6 o'clock on the bullseye not center of bullseye. Hits on the paper higher than that will coincide with being zero'ed for longer distances.

Guess it depends on the size of the target or critter, wind and light conditions, iron or scope sights. Not afraid to reach out and pull the trigger. Just finished up double cataract surgery this month, was nearsighted, now can see distance clear and sharp. So far I need to have those dang readers to see clear up close, but have a Dr appointment upcoming to finalize glasses needed. Those readers area PITA. A friend of mine who we've hunted and fished since the late sixties asked me the other day how well I can see now. Advised him coyotes out to 300 yards are possible, even with iron sights. He advised me I could never hit them at 3 yards.

I was a 19 E in the Army……. a tanker…..or otherwise called a DAT….tread head….yada yada yada

M60 A3

We were advised to use a six o’clock hold on a point bank engagement

They called it battelsight ….

It is what I need to focus on especially with a scope point blank.

I like my scoped rifles two inches high at 100 yards.

This was done with a scoped rifle at 200 yards, but the principle is the same. The point of aim is the bottom of the bullseye, and the point of impact is just above the point of aim. Comme ça:

Six o'clock hold...

That's not the desired effect in the present conversation.

It depends on what one wants to do.


Practice,practice,practice…….

Just braying.

Out west we call it sighting in for 300 yards.

Boy Howdy!

Very helpful, thank you gentlemen.

That may be a six o'clock hold on a black dot type target, but when guys talk about using a 6 o'clock hold, they are generally talking about a target with an X ring in the center of the target. What you are showing is a poa/poi sight in. With irons it is much easier to hold at the edge of the black, where it meets the white at the bottom of the black bullseye. Some guys will leave a sliver of white between the front post and the black too, which is sometimes easier for me to do it that way. Target shooters came up with the term and they generally want to hit the center of the black bull. This is how my 6.5x55 swedish mauser does with a 6 o'clock hold:




AR15 A2 with six o'clock hold:



Other forms of irons, such as what I run on one of my AR's does not require a 6 o'clock hold. They have an aperture on both the front and rear, much like a target 22 does. Center hold on target, POA matches POI just like your target posted above:


Since you are showing a scoped rifle at 200 yards, this works too, but there's no reference for an aiming point:


When I was taught to shoot irons, I was taught to hold dead on if you are shooting game. That is what you are doing as well, but you are using the bottom of the black circle as your aiming point. I grew up shooting flies with iron sights.

Please don't tell me you are a democrap. You are trying to change the meaning of 6 o'clock hold to further your agenda. Calhoun is spot on with the true definition of 6 o'clock hold. No need to try to confuse anyone here..

You are wrong, concerning this conversation. It's a shame you have to go to name calling.

C'mon you guys, don't confuse the OP. What you're showing is absolutely true when the goal is scoring points in a competition, not when the goal is putting one's shots exactly where the front sight is indicating. Do you really want to have to consider bullet impact above point of aim when drawing down on a deer 80 yards away on opening day morning? Especially if precision shot placement is critical?

That's the real nuts and bolts of it right there. Practice and find out where you like your POI, then practice some more once you have it dialed in.

Damn, who pissed in your beer? If anybody should be guilty of pedantry it should be the PhD in math, but you took the cake here.

If you read through the whole conversation you'll see the great assault on God's own right and proper definition of the six o'clock hold occurred well before I got involved. Barkoff seems a little green when it comes to this stuff, so I thought an illustration of the sight-in prior posters were describing could be useful. That was my agenda, no more, no less.

And you perfectly illustrated what I was trying to say.

I rarely, if ever, take pics of my targets/groups. The cogent info pertaining to accuracy results are notated in my loading journal - targets are discarded, and why clutter up my files with pics that nobody, including myself, will care to look at? Once a target is fired upon it becomes ancient history.

I usually take pictures of targets when I'm working up loads for comparisons, and so I don't forget what I was doing since I'm prone to losing stuff, but pitch most of them once I'm done.

I generally keep a picture of the best loads for future reference, since I just write the load and not the group sizes in my notes. Easier to look at a picture than try decipher my chicken scratch sometimes, or occasionally I'll get sidetracked before I'm done dialing in a load and go back to it much later to finish.

Good protocol. I'm a Luddite at heart and don't care to keep pics of hundreds/thousands of targets in files, nor the means to instantly access a particular target/group I shot on June 11, 2012 - if I can even remember I shot that target. And please don't tell me how to do it! I'm a Luddite, remember?!

My Sharpie chicken scratch on targets is just a lot easier to read than my pen chicken scratch on paper. Doctors don't have squat on me 🤣

My old man is a target hoarder... he has stuff laying around he shot clear back in the 70s, and a lot of it is groups of the same loads from the same rifles 🤨

Not a little green, a lot green! 😂😂

I’ll re-read it all and process it, and be back if I’m still not sure. I’m 90% saltwater fisherman and 10% shooter/hunter. If anyone wants opinions on setting up a boat, I’m your guy!! 😂😂

I’m pretty sure I get it, one is explaining the 6:00 hold on game in the field, the other, the same principle off the bench at known paper targets.

There you have it. Lord forgive us for abusing the anointed definition in the process of bringing you to this state.

Jimho it's better to be a bit high than low. I have a bad habit of underestimating the hell out of distances though, so ymmv. 🤷‍♂️

Hah! Something in common. I did a second career later in life as a yacht carpenter - remodeling existing boats and building them from scratch. Now I've re-invented myself again as a constructor/repairer of lab equipment here at the college that thinks I know what I'm doing!! The one constant in my topsy-turvy life has been gunnery, and flyfishing, and British cars, and pretty girls, and good beer, and.....

Since this is a Savage forum, I'll stick with those and with peeps, easy 200 yards. That said, Bill Bagwell (aka Sharpsguy RIP) schooled me and with my 45-110 and standard barrel sights, I routinely hit the 500 yard ram. Would I shoot big game at that range? no way, not even with a scoped rifle.

Like ol Justin Wilson said about cooking with wine……


Cook with the wine U like……..


Practice,practice,practice.

Baltimore Canyon, 30' Contender. No, Not a Thompson Center Contender!

You had to shame me! 😡

is that a Grady white.

norm

Parker 2320, thousands of them in CA.

so a head and birth under what power and leg? good deep v hull what kind of seas will iy handel comfortably

250 HP Evinrude, 150 gal of fuel, I’m usually back in the harbor before the seas test what she can do. 😂😂. My days of pounding are over. Because the helm is forward, she can pound some of you push her in the slop. She’ll do 43 knots unloaded, but rarely do we get the opportunity to run over 25knots and with the price of fuel I might be running her on the 9.9 kicker motor! 😡

These are really nice boats.

Not really. My friends boat and when he moved to Florida, he had the nerve to take it with him. My other fishing buddy has a 25’ Sea Cat he just repowered with twin 200 Suzuki’s. He said it moves now. Two of the guys in our club have Parker’s, one I think is a 28’. It’s slower than the Contender, but not a lot. We usually have our riggers up and spread out when the Parker gets there. We often fish 75-100 miles out. I think my favorite eating fish is Mako, but they scare me big time bringing on board. If I know they are a target I bring my 45 Colt.

Just make sure you shoot it before you bring it on board. 😉