With the new regs allowing shouldered cartridges over .357" looking like they may stick around for the foreseeable future, I'm considering ways to extend my reach beyond the ol' .45-70 lever gun.

Considering widely-available bullets in a non-super-magnum cartridge, I'm finding that the .366" (9.3mm) and .375" have a pretty significant advantage over the .358" bullets. Though there are boutique makers that can close that gap.

Given that, I'm considering the following cartridges:
9.3x62mm
.375 H&H Mag
.35 Whelen (fast-twist, custom bullets)

What else should I be considering on the new-rifle search?

The 250gr Accubond out of the 9.3X62 would likely be where I started, 'twer I in your situation.

Not sure what kind of deer you're dealing with in Iowa, but I'm pretty sure the 35 Whelen doesn't give up much to the larger bores.

I've got a 22" Remington 700 Classic in 35 Whelen. With the latest data from Speer (https://www.speer.com/reloading/rifle-data.html) I've gotten a 225-grain Sierra Game King just under 2,700 fps. I originally set this rifle up with a 4x scope, but then I made a couple of 1.5 MOA groups with that load and the 4x scope at 200 yards. I see it as an honest 400-yard proposition, even without a fancy barrel or bullets, so I replaced the 4x Leupold with a 3-10 Nightforce SHV. I haven't shot it for groups with the Nightforce yet.

I'm leaving 100-150 fps on the table but this rifle and load are so accurate that I'm not going to mess with them. The 1:16 twist is all wrong on paper, but targets don't lie.


Okie John

Just dealing with the good ol' run-of-the-mill Whitetails here, but hunt several areas where I can see a half mile or more. I don't have any aspirations to put a bullet in a deer at 1,000 yards, but am looking to work up the the 400-600 range.

I'm planning to run a 2.5-8x Leupold with a 14.5moa ZL turret.
.358 200gr bullets at 2600 @ .29 G1 seem to make it just past 500y zero'd at 100y
.366 286gr @ 2400 .332 G1 charts at just shy of 500y
.375 300gr @ 2600 .480 G1 gets 600y

I suppose any of the three should do the job. Why does general internet wisdom say there are no long-range bullets for the .358" bore?

...and I missed your load data that says .358 225gr at 2700 @ .384 G1 should get me out beyond 575.

And you're getting 1.5 moa with a 1:16?

You can do that with a lot less than what is currently being discussed above. Something in 6.5 or 7mm is more than enough to do it nicely. A 300 of any flavor would the max needed for this task if you just want to burn powder. JMHO

Ol

I'm in iowa. Rem 7600 22inch barrel 35 whelen and 750 carbine 35 whelen. Load both 180 barnes 2900 fps. Your mileage may vary

In a 35 Whelen, 200 or 225 Accubonds will stabilize just fine in Remington’s factory twist. With H4895 in a 24” barrel you can safely get 2700fps+ with either bullet.
The Nosler 200 gr AB has G1 of .365, the 225 AB is .430 while the 225 Partition is .421. It’s easy to get 2600 fps with a 250 gr Partition with .446 G1.
Run the numbers on a ballistic program and try targets at 400 and see how they do.

45-70 can lob the out there further than you most likely can.

Is it a 35cal minimum?

Except those 6.5 and 7 or even the 300 are not allowed in the OP's area.

10mm Uber Mashburn

From the 35 Whelen you can get; 3000 fps with 180s, 2900 fps with 200s and 2800 with 225s. My last trip to the range with my 700 Classic that has a 1/16 22 inch barrel I got the following:

CFE223 67.0gr. Barnes 225gr TSX avg velocity of 2780 fps. Sub inch accuracy at 100 yds. There was a lot more room on the throttle with that powder.

Here is a link to a Campfire article on modern loads with the Whelen.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13617368/1

Yes, I am. 61.4 grains of TAC. Per the Federal Ballistics calculator, it should be going just over 1,800 fps at 400, with 1650 fpe.

I’ve found that with a 1:16 barrel, the faster you push the bullet, the better it shoots. My Ruger M-77 would put three 250-grain Hornadys in 1 MOA but not until you got them up to 2,500 fps. That was considered the top end 25 years ago when I still owned that rifle.

Nowadays, a 1:16 35 Whelen is kinda like a 1:12 30-06.


Okie John

With our 35 caliber rule use a Whelan

If I gun hunt this year it will be with a BLR chambered in .358 Winchester. It may not have the range that you are looking for, but it beats the snot out of a 12 ga. foster style slug and is a fun rifle to carry.

The 35 whelen would probably be the flatest shooting cartridge of practical use for those of us in Iowa. Where I hunt in the hills close to the Mississippi a 35 Remington does equally well, but I did run into a situation where I wished I had the Whelen, but was carrying the Remington when the deer were on the other side of the field.

A 200gr TTSX at 2900fps is the flatest shooting load I've developed for the Whelen, but I haven't used it in the fields yet

I see, I over looked the greater than .357 clause in the original post my apologies.

Given that detail
Gaschekt’s 200 TTSX in the Whalen sounds like it could be a good combo of speed and weight. There should be plenty of energy left at range for the TTSX to expand and do it’s job well. I know the op said no super hot rods but the 358 STA would have some cool factor here too with that 200 grainer in a 14 twist at 3250 or down load to 2950 and keep the 12 twist.

Yeah, the .308 & the Creed are getting kinda dusty since moving back to IA, but the powers that be have decided that we need to use up our lead supply faster -- .357" & up.

If I end up going short action, the Creed will probably get a new barrel in .358 Win or something of that flavor.
- Maybe .375 Raptor?

"Lob" is the key word there. I've read the stories of how they tested them out to 2 miles back in 1879.
With my scope, I run out of dial at 375y & the bullet is approaching subsonic by then.


Yep

I just discovered that I can multi-quote. Stinking newbies...

Thank you - I have some more reading to do.



I'm getting the impression that:
- the factory Whelen loadings are leaving quite a bit on the table.
- internet commandos (& gunwriters?) aren't giving the Whelen its due.

Cool factor & nostalgia are why the .375 H&H is on the list in the first place. A .358 Norma or STW would fill the same slot if the right rifle presented itself too.

I had a range trip planned this morning, so I took my 35 Whelen. After zeroing a 308 and testing seating depths with a 30-06, I pulled out the Whelen and shot a group for you.

This rifle is zeroed to keep the bullet within an inch of line of sight, which turns out to be about 140 yards for this load. Drop at 200 yards is just shy of three inches, and the group is 1.24 MOA per the BallisticX app.

Vertical dispersion is acceptable. There was no wind and I wasn't using a rear bag, so the horizontal dispersion is on me.

Let me know if you have questions.


Okie John

Clearer view of the group here:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/17651428#Post17651428


Okie John

You're right.

Factory Whelen loads have to allow for all of the badly-converted rifles that have piled up over the years, and for actions like the low-numbered Springfield, 1895 Winchester, or some of the earlier Mausers that could be problematic with 60k psi loads. Current loads are more powerful but still on the cautious side.

Lots of people think that nothing has changed since Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith typed their last words, and that just isn't the case. We live in a Golden Age of powder and bullet technology. Levels of power and accuracy that were once out of the question are now common, and it's all perfectly safe.


Okie John

Go to Hodgdon’s or Nosler’s website for current loads. In my three Whelens, I’ve gravitated toward H4895 for accuracy and temp stability but I need to investigate CFE 223.

I sight in to put Whelen loads about 2 1/2” high at 100.

You may find you run out of shoulder before you reach the top end. 😊

How about a .378 Weatherby?

Correlation?

This certainly isn't going to be a range-blaster, and fortunately (?) I usually hunt 2nd season, so I'm wearing plenty of extra layers in mid-December -- but it's something that I'm trying to keep in mind.

I just loaded up some .358 Whelen ammo for a buddy who is going to hunt deer in central Iowa.

kwg

Yeah, seems like .378 Weatherby would be just the nuts for a LR deer rifle where you're not allowed bottleneck cartridges under .35 caliber (for what reason I'm not sure???) Best of all, several choices of Weatherby factory ammo for less than $10.00 a round.

.375 250 TTSX has a BC of .424 and will go ~2800 FPS from a .375 H&H. For a well known "long-range" entity, the .375/250 @ 2800 will have a trajectory very similar to a 308Win w/168gn Sierra Match King. They're almost exactly the same drop @ 600yds and the 250 TTSX will drift about 2.75" more @ 600 < 1/2MOA wind drift difference between the two.

Food for thought.

I’ve built several 358 WSM’s for the IA regs and 200gr at 3000+ is pretty good performance.

Or a 35 Whelen with a 200gr at 2900 fps. Data for this load can be found on the Nosler Load Data site. IMR-8208 XBR is excellent fuel.

Eek.

I think I got some of that dripping sarcasm on me :P

I have been leaning toward the 9.3x62 due to the PPU on the current market at less than $2/rd, but you guys are making my wife happy -- she likes the idea of the Whelen for a big rifle for whalin' on game. It always helps to have her on board for "yet ANOTHER rifle."

It's certainly tempting. Any idea where I could start looking for a rifle well south of $1,000?

The internet says WSMs have poor feeding habits - what's your experience been?

35 Whelen is legal in ioway but 375 Weatherby I don't think so.

What about the Weatherby doesn't follow the "straight-walled or other cartridge over .357" rule?

This from Iowa DNR website....
Legal firearms for the youth/disabled and shotgun 1 and 2 seasons include:

Pistols and revolvers (with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches)
Straight-wall and "necked-down" cartridge rifles shooting an expanding type bullet of at least .350 inches and no greater than .500 inches with at least 500 foot pounds of muzzle energy.
This includes, but is not limited to, the following common calibers: .35 Whelen, .350 Legend, .358 Winchester, .375 Winchester, .40 S&W, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 Long Colt, .45 Raptor, .450 Bushmaster, .450 Marlin, .45-70 Govt, .460 S&W and .500 S&W.

If you’re not sure if your cartridge is allowed, please check with your local DNR conservation officer.



All of them, as long as they have a bullet diameter between 0.350 inches and 0.500 inches.

50 BMG?

Thanks for looking that up.

Nope -- .510" projectile

One can only thank Iowa’s progressive DNR for making possible such deer cartridges as the 50 Fat Mac, a fifty off the 20mm case, while canceling — making illegal— such civilian dangers as the 32 Special, the 30/30, or the 308, or the 260, or the 243 or, even the 30/06 or the 270, and the 6.5 Creed. What, the Fat Mac too much? Step down to something more reasonable like the 416 Barrett.

Or, conversely, are these reg’s a tactic, as the 35’s and up quickly become large, more fearsome cartridges where most Iowans won’t go; whereas, the 35 and below are typical deer cartridges and are ubiquitous in Iowa.

Ok, Seriously. Did a Wash DC Democrat congressional contingent become IA’s DNR. You just cannot make this up.

If I hunted Iowa, I’d not worry about the illogic and simply enjoy the new freedom, while it lasts. Sooner or later, someone on a drive or other airing-out opportunity is gonna put one in the wrong place and they’ll be writing new rules, ignoring the fact that it was stupidity, not ballistics that caused the “accident”.

That's where I'm at with it.

Although in the past 20 years we went from may-issue to shall-issue to no-issue required, we got SBRs and suppressors, and we got big deer rifles - maybe it's another example of a trend of sanity re-entering the mainstream.

Nothing to do but wait and see. And find a rifle in my price range.

I get to hunt the state every other year as a NR. Following the regs, gone from 12 gauge to 450 BM/45-70, 375 Win, and this year probably 35 Whelen. So far, all of these have worked and while it might be nice to reach way out there, after rut ( 2nd gun) opportunities at better bucks tend to be much closer in my experience.

2 further questions:

Where does .375 Ruger fall into this discussion? Essentially an even match for the H&H?

There are Mossberg rifles available chambered for that, priced under $500. That pricing doesn't seem like it would get me to where I want to be, but it's a considerably lower price of admission to the medium-bore game. Do these things have anything better than a "functional" reputation?

My group tends to have pretty good success filling >70% of our tags, but we are hunting a couple of properties where ownership is more interested in population control & we're mostly interested in filling freezers.

We frequently end up setting up an evening stand where we just can't cover all the ground with the .350 Legends and .45-70 Gov'ts, so I'm looking for another tool to add to our options.

The 35 whelen 200- 225 grain Barnes in an accurate rifle will fill any long range hunting role an accurate rifle in 30-06 and 180 grain bullet will.

I think the CVA Scout in 35 Whelen has a lot going for it, especially the price and the 25" barrel. For deer, I'd look at 180- and 200-grain bullets. They're probably screaming fast in a barrel that long.


Okie John

I've never owned or shot a .375 Ruger so I can't say. Back in the height of Remington making dozens if not hundreds of SKU's on the 700's they has a 700 SPS Syn/Blued in .375 H&H that retailed for <$600. No clue if anyone might part with one for that kind of $$ now though.

Strange times we are living in...can you imagine even five years ago, a discussion of Iowa deer guns with 375 H&H in discussion?

That it's even a discussion point is really crystal-clear proof of how ignorant the lawmakers and regulators are.

Not a slight against the OP at all. Were I in his shoes, I'd be toting my Kimber Talkeetna .375 H&H this fall.

The 375 Ruger is every bit the 375 H&H and is Iowa-legal according to the reg’s, but the fact that this is being discussed as an option for whitetails in Iowa is beyond ludicrous in light of the fact that a farmer can’t use his own, old 30/30 in his river bottom. I’ve carried and used both 375’s; chosen and used in factory form they are completely out of proportion for deer.

Certainly, nothing meant against the poster or his question.

No offense taken, nor slights inferred. I fully understand that a 6.5 PRC or 7mm Rem Mag would do this job with a whole lot less fuss & recoil, but we're playing with the deck we're dealt at this point. I sold off a perfectly decent pair of 6.5 Grendels a couple of years ago just because there's no legal reason to run them here.

That said, I'm glad for the expanded options & opportunities. Here's hoping that a few years from now we can move the boundary a little further toward sanity.

I am in my shoes -- is that an offer to get your Kimber a little workout?

Why would they have picked a metric barrel thread for this uniquely American creation? Who has a can threaded for M16x1? The .350 Legend version is 5/8-24...

Anyway -- I see a lot of these for sale, but don't hear anything about them. How does the 2nd shot work out?

If it were me hunting IA w/ the new regs [which it's not... our farm is 7 miles on the E side of the river... where I have no hope of IL ever making better decisions on firearms]... and if I had a good spot to actually see and shoot big bucks at long range. I would go with a 2 gun solution. A short, handy bolt or pump in 358Rem or 35 Whelen and then build a heavy custom 375 or 40cal w/ a break and a scope that can take the abuse. Run custom bullets if needed.

For a one gun solution, mid weight 9.3x62 w/ Accubonds and a compact Nightforce should get you to 600y w/ enough practice and still be handy for anything closer.

A pair of solid thoughts there too.

Before the "bottleneck" rule change I was thinking of rebarreling to a custom straightwall round. Glad I didn't, now. As just stated, I am in agreement with the OP and will be delighted to use a 358 or 35 Whelen since the state opened up that possibility. Personally, I can't think of better options given the regs.

I have a 2.5-10x32 NXS on the Talkeetna, a shade over 9# sans sling or ammo in the belly.

That's a dandy set up!!

9.3x62 with the new 184gr RWS Evogreen. BC 0.312 and 2,950fps from factory which is genuine.
They have a reputation for being very accurate which is just as well as they are awfully expensive

Those numbers would put my max range around the 600y mark!

I can't seem to find a USA source - any help?

Now that we have a working area pretty well-defined for cartridge, how about a little discussion on the rifle?

$1,000 Ruger M77 vs. $600 Santa Fe Mauser 98 -- is there a functional $400 difference?

I guess i better apply for a Iowa tag and dust off one of the 358 normas in the safe LOL, loaded with 180 Barnes TSX should cover most corn fields rather well.

Would think that a 9.3x62mm Mauser/270 gr. Speer Hot-Cor(BC: 0.361) at ~ 2400 fps...?

Would give you a solid and inexpensive 300 yd. rifle/load(12" drop w/ 200 yd. zero, 1800 fps) that would poleax most any deer w/o beatin' you too bad in the process.




GR

Depends on what aftermarket support you need. The Ruger will have more options for good synthetic stocks than the Mauser.


Okie John

I am behind the times. I used a 20 ga. double barrel for years and the longest shot I ever made was 40 yards. I have a 12 ga. Winchester pump now and I'll bet my longest shot will be 40 yards. (more like 20) Would it be fun to go to a center fire rifle ? You bet. Is it possible I could catch a deer grazing out in a corn field beyond that 40 yards ? Yes, that's possible.

But the Winchester is paid for with 20 some year old dollars and the pumpkin ball slugs are about $1.50 each. That makes for some cheap eating. I know, welcome to 2022.

kwg