I'm looking for both "PROS" and "CONS" of baiting deer from those people who live in states where it is already legal, practiced and have experience on the subject.

I have been baiting deer for years but I don't live in a State other than constant confusion...does that count?

Well, one "con" is the highest corn prices we have ever paid here in TX. And coon and feral hog numbers have never been higher that eat those precious kernals!

stumpy

I've always fed deer. It's how I grew up hunting. We have little food source in many areas, so we simply provide food sources. It's no different than hunting food sources in other states. I hunt in the midwest a bit and always see deer eating corn in the corn fields. No difference in my opinion.

We don't do it to shoot game over a bait pile like some think, we do it to hold game on our properties. We mostly have pine thickets here and there's not much food for the game animals. If you want to hold game, you have to feed or they will move to the neighboring properties where they feed.

If you hold does with food plots and feed, the bucks will be around.

We plant food plots and place feeders in the plots. I've also seen feed improve bucks antler growth. In one area we only fed corn for a couple of years and had mostly spikes and 4pts on the game cam. We then switched to Purina deer chow mixed with corn and in just two years the 1.5yo bucks are mostly 6pts and small 7 & 8s. The 2.5s are nice 8s and next year it will be interesting to see how they are at 3.5yrs.

loder

My problem with feeding deer is that occasionally a neighbors cow or horse will get out and find my feeder. I haven't found that it to helps with nocturnal deer.

+1

It's rare for me to shoot a buck eating corn, but they follow the does. Some of my permanent rifle stands have feeders, but now all have food plots. I'm at 40 consecutive hunts without being skunked. In years past, I had spells where I might be hunting bad conditions and go 3-4 hunts in a row without seeing anything. Also, the feeders on my rifle stands are positioned so that they can be hunted for archery via treestand. Two birds with one stone.

Some folks cry "foul" when the subject of baiting is brought up. Then I ask them why they use bait for fish.

+1 to both Reloader7RM and JPro ... I don't know anyone in Louisiana that works it any differently than what they said ... we have feeders full of a 50/50 mix of deer corn and roasted soy beans ... and we have a lot of food plots planted each season ...

it's something we have to do, when you have boundaries for your property, and 90% of the trees are pines. Deer might not be that smart, but they definitely know to go where the food is ... a habitat without food is NOT a suitable habitat ... that's pretty much the long and short of it.

as for the cons ... well, some people don't like to hunt the areas where the feeders are because they feel like it's cheating ... they do cost a bit to maintain, as the price of the corn and soy isn't cheap ... but if you're truly trying to manage a herd of deer, and make sure they stick around your place, you gotta do it ...

One key thing ... you really want/need to run the feeders year round ... the protein uptake during the off season is very key to good antler growth ... if you're only feeding during the legal hunting season, you're truly just trying to 'bait' them in ... but if you feed them year round, you're promoting good health/growth, as well as making sure they know that your property (their habitat) is the place to be ...

The single biggest con here in Michigan is that much of our hunting is on public or public access land. Once baiting starts some hunters start thinking of a particular patch of public land as "their" spot just because they have been putting bait there. Even before bait this could be a problem, but the bait multiplies it severalfold.

Another con is arms race of baiting that starts. Some bait piles are just obsene by nearly anyones standard. I talking about like a 40 yard box.

Another con is that the deer spend fewer daylight hours feeding and moving, just because they can.

Another con is that hunters, as a group, forget or never learn any other way of hunting.

The only pro I can think of is that it keeps most of the other hunters nailed down to their bait piles.

Arizona is now in the public comment period where the G&F is considering outlawing the use of bait and salt to attract big game for hunting. Baiting of bears is already outlawed.

I started hunting in S.Texas where corn flickers and oat patches are common. After a few years, I gave up the stands as waiting on a stand was boring and it did not seem like hunting to me.

Doug~RR

Ther is no food in the woods at all this year...absolutely no acorns. All the deer have to eat is winter wheat and my corn piles.

I am hunting suburban deer where baiting is a necessity to lure them from the neighbors yard.

Doc

The dumbest thing the DNR ever did was to allow baiting.

Grinning...

It sure gives the stillhunter more spots to circle.

Nice.

I have some pretty strong feelings about this. Alabama does not allow baiting. However, from September thru January, any country store you walk in has 50 pound sacks of corn stacked to the ceiling. The conservation officers only target certain people. What I mean by this is, if you're a big landowner, with a high fence, you can do whatever you want. It's all about money here. I personally know of a lease that 2 judges are a part of. Corn and corn feeders everywhere, nothing is ever said or done to them. Let some 18 year old that's trying to kill a deer on his grandma's 40 acres dump a sack of corn and hunt over it, they'll ticket him every time. I see nothing wrong with hunting over corn. I know people who sneek around and do it, and most of these guys might harvest one buck per year. They see plenty of deer, but are selective and responsible. In my opinion, nothing is wrong with this type of hunting. I do have a problem with somebody sitting on a corn pile and blasting everything that walks up. The long and short of it in Alabama, baiting is everywhere, but not legal. You almost have to do it to keep game on your lease. Not trying to start an argument here, but it is amazing that some of our Northern friends see nothing wrong with hunting over a 200 acre corn field, but scoff at our desires to use corn. Of course, all this is just one man's opinion

South Carolina is like the "Vegas" of deer hunting. Virtually anything goes! 4.5 month seasons, no limit on bucks, and of course, baiting is legal. Not only is it legal, it's practiced with a passion here.
I'm one of those "Rouges". I despise baiting!!!
Yes, corn piles WILL attract deer, but back when I was younger and did bait, I RARELY saw a big, mature, buck on the corn.

Typically, the deer we did see over bait were as nervous as a W#$%E in church. They also seem to move later in the day than those that are feeding in a food plot, or a planted field.

I put all my efforts into food plots. I plant as much area as possible, and I try to make sure there's year round food in the fields, and plots. I just spent all weekend from daylight to dark, planting oats. I do also add supplemental protien in the form of pellets and cotton seed as soon as the season is over, and will keep this up thru late spring.

If foodplots are not feasable on your area, and baiting is legal, then do it. Corn is KING when it comes to bait.
One tip if you are going to bait. Don't make a "pile". Deer seem to be more wary of a pile, vs broadcasting the bait over a larger area. No matter if you're using ear, or shell corn, scatter the heck out of it. Just like you were trying to over seed your lawn. Deer prefer to move and feed over standing in one spot to eat. Make'em work at it, just like they were feeding on acorns.

Iowa does not allow baiting, but since the whole state is covered in corn I guess its legal.

same as MN, no baiting and I can't stand the thought of it. Baiting isn't the same as a foodplot or a farmers field, not even close. I can see in some regions it might be useful but I'm glad to hunt in a state that doesn't allow it.

I'm not taking sides but I think the difference is that a 200 acre corn field has many more places for the deer to enter. You have to pick the right spot instead of 'making' the spot. In addition, most likely, you have no control over what gets planted in that field or when it's harvested. Once the deer have cleaned up what little corn is spilled, there's no more.

Dale

Pro's,

Feed'em during the winter and they'll congregate and hang around and you can hunt them. You get pictures of what's there in terms of racks. It's kind of fun too.


Con's they'll go nocturnal on ya and you won't see 'em.
Con Corn's expensive, and it's work, feeders aren't free.

In the end if you want to modify patterns a bit - it's good, especially if you need to in order to have a shot (pun intended) at getting a deer.

Only half, the other half is in soybeans. >grin<

I did not feed this year due to the high price of corn. Worst year have had since the 1980s! At one point I went over one month without seeing a deer in an area where I see deer about 50% of the time when I have corn somehwere on the property. Baiting sucks because of the cost and effort involved but it does work.

Not with ethanol and all those guys feeding deer

We probably do lose an acre or more to deer every year. So I reckon I do condone that feeding stuff. Turkey and beaver take their share too. The beavers will drag it off to the creek, turkeys just knock it down the same way deer do.

Yep.

Some areas deer do more than an acre.

There are five of us who hunt 1st season. We took 11 deer with antlerless tags included in the area we hunt.

For all our "bait" there are more than a few that won't make it through tonight.....

minus 8 right now...

Old Rufus is mighty glad he's got a heat lamp to lounge under out in the shed.

But it's a dry cold...the critters will be okay.

Yep, that dry cold.

Dry cold don't freeze your nostrils, does it?

Don't freeze beer either I hear....

They are good for culling does and trash bucks. I've never seen a mature buck at one. They will filter through looking for does though, but you better be set up to see well behind the feeders and mostly ignore the feeders.

Some places its about the only way to see deer at times. I have to find open bottoms in E Texas to find deer on public land, if not its so thick you can't get through without a racket etc... Clearcuts help with new growth and feed.
Down south on many places that Doug referred to, you either find something open, or put out feed, you'll never crawl through a lot of that stuff.

I don't like feeders that much either, but at home here they seem to have come a long way in helping the herd recover, especially the self feeders that they can eat as much at any time.

Jeff

Baiting is fairly useless but legal where I hunt, in the Ohio Valley. There is way too much better mast available in the Fall.

-42 degrees this morning. a dry cold and yes your nostrils freeze. The wind was fifteen miles per hour and your face skin contracts. I have an outside wood fired boiler and it takes five minutes on the coals for the wood to heat up enough to burn well. Now that is cold. I have not put out feed but wonder how the deer will make it. I have never come accross winter kill on my property, but severe winters seem to keep fawn birthing numbers down. Has any one experienced this?
Randy

-42? Showoff.

At 5:30 this morning the thermometer on the barn read -19 as I was during chores. Waterer froze up....freak!

I live in Northern Wisc, and we have had legal deer baiting for many years. IMO it is an absolute waste of time and has caused many problems, Youper has touched on many of them. The biggest problem I see, is dumping corn has led to an explosion of bears and then they raise hell with the fawns. Studies have shown bears kill 25% to 50% of the fawn crop. In our area the deer kill was down 49% this year. There are no pros to baiting deer. Also our DNR estimated our bear population at 6000-6500 and an independent study proved their are over 26000!!! The study was so good the DNR cannot refute the numbers. Bears eat the corn and have 3 to 5 cubs instead of the normal 1 or 2, and it takes 11 years to get a kill tag for them.

The problems seem to be on Public Land.I think the DNR has no buisness telling Private Landowners ,what they can do on their property.The Wi. DNR cant find their Azz with two hands and a flashlight and are not much better with game management.Many of their laws have nothing to do with Game management or Biological needs.They are now a Political organization and make their decisions based on who screams the loudist.I am not for or against baiting.I am against Goverment Intrusion.They over react to everything.CWD for instance.Yes I live in NE Wi. and for years the DNR has got their estimates of Bear Population from a Computer program.They do very little field work any more and have no idea how many Bears are around.Screw them .Here is the Crux of the matter.If you dont like baiting,dont bait.Dont force your will on people who think other wise.

FYI, DNR wasn't comfortable with the estimate of ~13,000 bears and sponsored the study by Univ Wisc that shows numbers at 35,000 +/- 10,000. In fact, many DNR biologists helped with field work on the study.

I did bait deer - Once. My 84 year old dad wanted to shoot a deer from a particular blind we had built for him. So we put out some oats. I'm kinda glad that the deer ignored the bait. He got a shot later at a different spot anyway. I just don't believe it's necessary to bait deer to have a good hunt. Seems like a short cut to me. I don't have anything against those who do, but it doesn't seem quite like fair chase to me.
Now for some shaky logic, I think that the only viable way to hunt black bears in our area is over bait. I've tried many other ways, never even saw a bear unless bait was involved some how. So I'm OK with baiting bears but not deer. Doesn't make sense but there you are.

Mogwai; I appreciate the post. Their numbers were really off.
Huntz; The question was pros and cons of deer baiting. I gave mine, and I'm sure their differnt from yours and lots of others.

i wonder what if any negative effect on deers teeth hard corn could have.

My grandpa lived by the motto, "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story." But sometimes, they can help.

I doubt it, acorns are pretty hard too.

But I have always wondered if a heavy diet of corn would be kinda hard on the deer's inards. We feed our calves out to fat on a strong corn diet along with some protien and hay. Several months of that will start working on them pretty hard. Granted our calves are eating up to 25lbs or more a day, but they're 4 to 5(maybe more) times heavier than the deer at your feeder.

Deer are like Cows.They are ruminants.They have 4 parts to their stomach.They don`t have to chew the corn to pieces.They eat it, let it partially digest and bring it back up as cud to finish it off.PS they digest it very well,ever see corn in deer crap????

My point is every one has an opinion.That does not make it right or wrong,just an opinion.Some people think that their opinion is the only one that counts.Do not take this personally as I am generalizing. How bout Them Packers !!!!

Ruminants need a certain percentage of long forage in their diet. For cattle, I've always figured 30% will keep you out of trouble all the time. If you're careful, you can get down to about 20% but you gotta watch em close. I saw some university research at 10% forage but that was really pushing it.

Deer can free choice on browse, acorns, grass or your corn. And like muleshoe said, it takes time for their digestive system to get out of whack.

Dale

OK, I tried to stay out of this but I just can't.

Baiting is a chickenchit way to hunt. It pits hunter against hunter, brother against brother, landowner against the average joe.

Baiting in WI is out of hand. The DNR has a 2 gal. max for bait, I don't know ANYBODY who baits that follows that rule.

Banned in MN, kind of funny too. I shot two does a few years ago there that had corn in them when I field dressed 'em. Yep, you guess it, not a corn field within 25 miles.

Parents in WI use the excuse all the time that they do it so their kids can see deer when they hunt or they won't go anymore. I call B.S. I hunted for 2yrs before I even SAW a deer in the woods while hunting. Did I get bored, nope, just wanted it even more, so bad I could picture how it was going to happen.

[quote=tzone]OK, I tried to stay out of this but I just can't.

Baiting is a chickenchit way to hunt. It pits hunter against hunter, brother against brother, landowner against the average joe.



Nope, it is just another way to Hunt that you dont agree with.That does not make it right or wrong.Just a differnt method period.Its just like any other choice you make in life.The purpose of Hunting is the kill period.Without the Kill ,even if just occasionally,You would not Hunt.If you just like being in the woods,you can go with just a Camera.I remember when Tree stands were not allowed in Wi.They were called Unsportsman like,a unfair advantage,unethicall.You can pick apart anything in Hunting that you do not agree with and call it bad.Pita just loves that kinda schitt!!!!!

I always have and always will use deer feeders.I don't think I asked for anyones opinion on what I do.

Right on brother!

Sometimes I just shoot as many as I feel like. I mean WTF? I don't like having anyone telling me what to do. Its about me and my hunt.

Rifles aren't legal here, but hey, I gotta shoot sumthin' dammit.

When I get about a dozen piled up I just cut the straps out; only thing I like to eat.

You want me to go on? Unless you OWN these animals every one who buys a license has a say in the hunting practices, whether you like them or not. To equate another's idea of fair chase with anything PETA does is silly.

Friend, you can pick apart anything in LIFE and call it bad; its the extremes that need avoided. I'd call PETA one end of that extreme, your fellow hunter in the middle and some guy that raises his deer in a pen and feeds, breeds and shoots them in said pen at the other.

Baiting must really work (no schit); some are venemous to defend its usage.

Last guy that did what HE wanted to shot some people up there....

All of my comments are limited to whitetail deer as I never baited anything else. I grew up hunting in PA where baiting is illegal and looked upon as cheating. I now live in TX where corn is actually a verb. From "ethics" standpoint, I don't really see much difference between baiting or hunting over a planted field of some sort. Actually, I believe a planted field or natural bait is much more effective than a corn feeder or something of that sort. That being said, here are what I consider Pros/Cons:

Pros:
Can give you a chance to really look at an animal. This is important to me because of state mandated antler restrictions. Also nice to help age deer.

In TX, where everybody baits I believe it helps keep deer on property vs leaving for somewhere else that is baiting.

Can augment food source for wildlife during hard times of year or drought conditions.

Gives you a good place to put up a trail camera to see the mature bucks that never come out in daylight hours:)

Cons:
Something else to maintain/worry about. If you are using a feeder count on it not working so make sure you put it in a place where you are not soley relying on it to "lure" deer in from somewhere else.

Can be expensive whether it is a food plot or loading a feeder

For some guys, they can be overly reliable on it and not hunt other areas.

Lou

I don't use a treestand eithter...well not often anyway.

To me hunting is WAY more than just killing. Plenty of times I let game pass without killing it.

The guy asked for pros and cons, picking it apart...I guess you could call it that. I just don't any pros to it.

If a guy can't shoot a deer in a state with a million deer in it without a corn pile, it might be time to reevalueate some things. I'm not telling you not to do it, just said what I thought about it. It is legal so not much I can do about it.

I sure hope that post wasn't directed at me because I never told anybody how to hunt, what to hunt, or where to hunt, or what to do. I just said baiting is a chicken chit way to do it.

In the area of WI that I hunt it, baiting brings on a lot more trouble that it is worth.

As I said before, it's legal here. Problem is not many that bait, do it the legal way. Go walk the woods 2 weeks before deer season in WI and you'll see what I'm talking about.

No zone, wasn't directed at you. I pretty much agree its a "my pile is better than yours" competition.


I just find it laughable that there are "no right or wrong" ways to go about hunting. Last time I checked there are regs posted, all opinions, mostly a consensus.

I am glad we can all agree to disagree ,and leave it at that.No body wins in pissing contests and ya get all wet to boot!!!!!

Some of us are just more civil about it.Ones vocabulary says allot about their upbringing.

Pro might just get a deer.

Con you could be gay.

South Carolina is divided with baiting being only legal in the Coastal Plain over which the SC Department of Natural Resources has no agency authority.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/baitinglaws.html

Conclusion of the SCDNR Wildlife Section biological staff concerning baiting in the Piedmont:

It appears to me that the venom and the psychos are on the anti-baiting side. Just sayin'. I mean, read your own post, for Chrissakes.

Your right Steve, how could I be so blind. Do what ever you wish; it is only my opinion, and who am I to judge.

May the fences run high, the ground be small and the feeders flow. Its all good.

I was just sayin' too...

Nate

i dont hunt in a state where baiting is legal but have hunted over bait in other states... If it was legal I would do it because it increases my odds and i am all about odds because I dont have the time to hope and guess....

comparing differences of opinion/tradition/state law on baiting to a psycho murderer is just asinine. just sayin'.


people who haven't been around much tend to think their way is the only way....

I was pointing out the logic behind what a poster (earlier in the thread) had stated regarding certain game laws. If you think the comparison is asinine, I won't lose sleep.

Some think baiting is the only way; I have much more respect for my fellow hunters to think that.

As to where I have been: I know enough about feeders and the places they are used. I know that I do not want them here because they cannot be equated with a field or whatever. To say they are the same WOULD be asinine.

Paint me whatever, but I just don't see baiting anything outside of depredation or culling as a good thing, in the long run.

As to being the only way. Let's just bait everything, since there are no qualifiers. Bait whatever you want, I just cannot defend it. Sorry.

Nate

sound like some of you are real masters at baiting...must be masterbaiters.

Baiting also gives guys with small parcels of marginal land a chance for a good hunt.

BTW all the guys who think hunting over bait is like shooting fish in a barrel should look at the results for the deer season of 08 in MI. The lower peninsula had a baiting ban and success rates where about the same.

not even close to shooting fish in a barrel. Yes, that means I have done it, that is how I know I don't like even a little bit.

I haven't done it since WI banned baiting about 5yrs ago, it started right up the next season though.

I NEVER saw a buck while I did it. Didn't see many deer in the am either. Saw quite a few does and fawns from about 4pm to the end of hunting hrs. It does affect deer movement, mostly in a negitive way, IMO

Thats because anybody who can sit still for 4 hours in southern Michigan can shoot a doe.No need to bait Find a few main runs that intersect put up a tree stand and watch all the does go by.Sooner a later a buck will stroll down the trail.

Try that in parts of the northern lower or the UP and you might sit for weeks and not see a thing.

Same in norther MN. It's just all part of the game. I've sat for whole season and not seen a deer in MN and WI. Boring as hell, but gives a guy a chance to scout, still hunt, take a nap...

I don't pretend to be any expert but, I have hunted in states that allow bait & those that don't. In Virginia we can't bait during deer season but, can use food plots. What is the real difference since both attract deer? I & others put up feeders in the off season to both hold deer in our areas & provide needed nutrition. Where I hunt(& many others) are tree farms without hardwoods to produce acorns & no crops. The biologist that consults on the property suggested off season feeding. In many states where I have hunted over bait, except during the rut, seldom is a trophy buck seen during shooting light. In Virginia again, where no baiting is allowed during the season, all sorts of minerals, ground acorns, etc. is sold at all hunting stores. It is of course illegal(unless natural) to use & the game wardens have told me its illegal. Many hunters pour this "bait" everywhere, dig holes for minerals, & put out mineral blocks. There appears to be a wink & a nod from game wardens on selling & using these products, so why not just allow feeders? I know hunters that get fighting mad when feeders are mentioned, but spent lots of money developing & hunting near & over food plots. They counter, its hunting "natural food sources". When did all the expensive seeds developed for food plots occur natural? I have a plow I use with my ATV, buy these fancy seeds, fertilize, & develop food plots that I have hunted days over without seeing a deer. The same with corn from a feeder. There are no guarantees in hunting.

pretty big difference between baiting and food plots. Bait piles are usually a pile of corn dumped in a spot where a guy can see.

A food plot is an acre or so most times, doen't usually alter deer movement because it has been there for several months, not two weeks before the season.

Sure both are for attracting deer, but quite different in the way they do it.

Moot point.Same end result.

not really. corn field gets the same result. brings deer in. their pattern is not altered because it wasn't there yesterday.

And if you dont think food plots alter the way deer move your nuts.
When MI bans baiting everyone will have food plots and the result will be the same.

If you plant winter wheat and rye, it really comes into its own right before season if there isn't too much snow....:)

They switch to carbs to bulk up and its a beautiful thing.

I don't plant to bait though, am in it strictly for the aesthetics...as they stay green under the snow...:)

Good luck with your food plots on public ground. Here anyway, I'm not sure the laws in MI.

You would not be able to do the necessary work involved with food plots legally here.

I agree with the first part. I started baiting last night. I've lured them to my small parcel of land, have found their trails and need to get a trailcam on them to find out when they are coming in.





They are coming through the un-picked cornfield across the road from a hickory and oak grove. I was amazed at how little feed it would require to get that much traffic.



I am a little uneasy about the last comment. I guess since it doesn't matter harvest wise, I am wondering why I should do it?

Yea, I feed the deer corn. Above the house here I have a feeder thats going year round, but I don't hunt around it. Its for the deer,turkeys, squirrels, doves and any other wildlife that comes around. In 2007 there was not an acorn crop and animals were in bad shape so I started feeding above my house and have not stopped. Where we lease our hunting land is about 235 miles form my house. We do put corn feeders up there near 3 stands. I have to say in 2007 due to the non existant crop of acorns, I felt like we practically fed the whole deer herd there. In 2007 I fed over 2500 pounds of corn. In 2008 there was a bumper crop of acorns and I think maybe I fed 800 pounds at the deer lease property. Man I was glad because that stuff is high. I have to tell you I don't shoot every deer that comes near the feeders. I have noticed in the past that the small deer will come in and eat and alot of times the older does will stay off at a distance. If I just happen to shoot one of those does then so be it. I know there is a discussion on whether feeding deer is right. One reason people feed deer and plant food plots is to attract deer and to keep them around on their property. Also this helps get them through a tough winter, avoiding a painful death of starvation. The discussion about feeding deer (baiting if thats what you call it) will rage on until the end of time.

I would totally disagree. Where I have used feeders & occasionally scattered corn it takes a lot more time than 2 weeks to attract numbers of deer & for then to become comfortable with the set up. I doubt that you have actually used feeders. I know a successful bow hunter that gathers several bushels of acorns & places them in shooting lanes. Natural baiting. Don't think for one minute that both feeders & food plots don't alter deer movements. Both are very effective in holding deer on a property. Its another situation where each of us can choose how we hunt based on specific game laws & desires.

I just filled my feeders with antler max and corn. Rifle season closed 2 weeks ago, Do ya'll still consider this baiting

loder

I put corn in the big old cabelas 440lb feeder and let it trickle for months - until things start turning green.

Frigg'n coons are getting huge, I had 520 pictures of deer in the last 2 weeks.

Spot

Is that for you, or the deer?

tbear,

This is no schit, but the wifey just filled up the feeder last night. We've had the snow for a while. That's just about 24 hrs..

I'll take another pick 2 morrow (it'll have more tracks), I gaurantee!

Did I mention the unpicked corn field?

Agreed

Maybe because many said fug it and baited anyway. All the doe's taken at camp had corn in their stomachs. There weren't any corn fields around.

I know many private landowners who said to hell with it.

Hawk, you should know it's only for the deer

You know those bucks would get their feelings hurt if their antlers weren't at full potential next fall.

loder

Yep, you're right. I've never used feeders. They are not legal in any state I've hunted in.

The 2 weeks comment was for WI. Most of the people that bait come out two weeks before the season, dump their corn pile and repeat each weekend until the season starts.

WI law is 2-gallons of bait, no matter what it is per 40 acres. Mineral/salt blocks included. The warden that talks at our hunters saftey classes, says there are 8 gallons of corn in a 50#bag.

My second night of baiting

T-Zone, we hunt Canada every year and because of distance only bait the first day we get there, then hunt the next day. Never not seen deer the first day hunting. Course we typically bait in places that hold deer.
If your using the right bait and place it properly deer will hit it and fast. Now, if you put it where there are no deer, or where deer dont want to be it can take some time before the hit it.
Its not like it doesnt take any skill to bait.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, just a couple of thoughts...

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Every hunter is hunting bait of some kind - food, water, cover, breeding activity, etc. I've hunted in Texas all my life, and it is super rare for a mature buck to come to a feeder, IME.

It is just as rare for a truly hot doe to be there, and that is the only "bait" that attracts mature bucks. If you want a mature buck, you have to figure out where they take the hot does. These bucks take control of them, and cut them off and take them where they want them, and camp on them and won't leave them...to the point of absolute idiocy.

If we want to talk about bait that is just flat unfair, we'll have to outlaw hunting the rut.

Food plots are far more effective than any form of baiting/feeders, IMO. No contest.

I don't mind feeders. I don't hunt them, but we've got a couple behind the house and it's fun to watch deer (mostly young deer) come to them. I also don't worry about them - the guys hunting them are not killing the deer I'm after, and I hunt a lot on a small ranch surrounded by properties with feeders.

I'd a lot rather have bedding cover and a food plot and the ability to see what I can do with it, than feeders. The last few years we haven't planted any oats at all, so we've just hunted what we had in natural forage - some Oaks dropping acorns and clover and winter grass.

I think we get too worked up about it sometimes, and it seems there's sometimes a little hypocrisy in feeder/baiting criticism from those hunting other kinds of bait just as faithfully.

DJ

Dj got it right. If you have food, water, beding cover, no need for "bait" piles. The bucks will be there. You just have to wait them out, or go in and get them. Which ever flavor you choose, fine with me.

Ya can't shoot fish here in MN. Ya can't bait deer either. My food plots are all froze out and the deer mostly ignore them by the time rifle season rolls around. I feed the deer after rifle season: all they can eat- feed is unlimited for them (going through 150 pounds of corn and sunflowers per day now- about $30). Come to think of it, with my food plots, habitat (woodlot and brushland) improvement, and winter feeding, the only time I don't feed them is during the hunting seasons. And my only hope for reward is that a few older bucks might make it through the hard winters. Of course, I still get accused of baiting deer by some.
Just venting.

A retired net maker can cough up $900.00 a month to feed deer?

Craig

4-skin,

Yes, we were paid well. Please don't screw up this thread with your trolling.

I'm done.

Craig

Now that's funny

Could not have said it better.........

Baiting is not hunting......It's shooting.

Here we hunt deer and pattern their travels based on natural food sources (90% of the deer diet). We improve the land by fertilizing native browse and planting Duranna Clover year round high protein food plots....Not to hunt over but to increase the health of the wildlife.

A typical 1 acre food plot produces 20,000lbs of 20% high protein forage per year and costs $500 or .$025 per pound...The food plot is there 365 days per year.....Squirrels and Coons don't eat it....Lasts for 5 years when planted in Duranna.

20,000lbs of Corn costs $4,400 this year only or $.18 per pound and contains less than 10% protein. Coons, Hogs and Squirrels love it as much as the Deer and Turkey.

Baiting with Corn makes killing deer easier without improving the health of the herd. It's less work and planning than planting plots or fertilizing native browse.

Robert

very well said.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Water, browse, crops, corn, food plots, does, minerals, cover, seclusion, it's all desired by the animal. You do what you've gotta do, and I'll going on "baiting" with something, might even be a grunt call.

This is a touchy subject but I must chime in. Here in deep S.Texas I use feeders because of one main reason. Not bashing anyone, but try to comprehend. We can't go 'pussyfooting' from one tree (or woodlot) to the next looking for game. Just try stalking thru thousands of acres of dense, thorn and cactus infested brush and you'll understand. Set up on a 'trail' and wait for Mr.Horns? Forget it. Why? Well, there are thousands of trails-is it a wild hog trail,a javelina trail or simply a cow trail. Sure, you can look for tracks but one deer print doesn't make it a deer highway;in fact, hogs seem to cover every square inch of land so they obliterate everything. Sure, I would like a food plot but a John Deere tractor is just not in my budget. Kix

You don't need to fit a tractor into your budget. You just need to make friends with a guy that has access to a tractor. (grin)

As I said. Baiting makes it easier to kill deer.....Regardless of how it's rationalized.....We end up at the same place.

BTW: Before I had access to a tractor I put in food plots with a hand tiller and lawn spreader. I also walked around carrying bags of 10-10-10 and fertilized green briar,honeysuckle,Oaks and Muscadine Vines....It works. Granted it's much harder than going out and pouring a pile of Corn and setting up to "Hunt"..... but baiting is not legal here......?Thank goodness.

Robert

Food plots in S. TX require more than a tractor. Rain would help, also a fence to keep them out till it matures. And cows out. BTDT

stumpy

"Baiting" in South Texas is not just dumping a pile of corn on the ground, it involves timed feeders set to throw only a small amount of corn once or twice a day. Not only will hogs, coons, and squirrels get it, but a flock of grackles will wipe out anything on the ground if they come though. Kix is right on the money about the thick brush and cactus - this is why it's called the "Brush Country", also why it's good to kill them DRT - instead of losing them. Feeders attract does and young bucks easily down there, but a trophy buck is much harder, doesn't just step out in the open. I used to hunt with hounds in East Texas - same principle, traditional hunting methods have been developed because they work in their respective areas. This said, however, trophy deer hunting in Texas has become a big business that even has a lot of influence in state government, and the problem isn't feeders. Much of it is out-of-state hunters wanting to pay big bucks to hand a geneticaly altered buck on their wall.

Which is why I don't agree with it anywhere. One thing can/may lead to another, especially when some are out to make a "buck".

Not legal maybe, but that is EXACTLY what your doing legally. You can paint it however you want. But you are doing NOTHING different and something that is TEN times better "bait" than any corn feeder.

I've hunted both types of "bait" many times my whole life, I'll take a oat, wheat, bean, or "deer magic food plot" over a corn feeder ANY DAY!!!!!! MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more likely to take a mature deer over a food plot any day.

Bill

Bill,

In the interest of healthy discussion.......Everyone I know who hunts over Bait throws out the "Food Plots are Bait" "Oak Trees are Bait" "Green Briars are Bait" . You can of course even go as far as stating that hunting where a Hot Doe is located would be considered baiting....etc.....

This is where the distinction lies for me......
Is it normal to find Agriculture in Deer habitat?YES

Is a food plot,Fertlized Oak Tree,Green Briar or Honeysuckle beneficial to the deer and other wildlife?YES

Are These things available year round? YES

Are these things Healthy for the Wildlife?YES

Is Corn poured from a bag or thrown from a feeder intended to benefit the deer herd and other wildlife? NO, in fact most baiters I know complain of Coons,Squirrels,Hogs etc...Eating THEIR DEER CORN.

Is Corn more economical for a year round supplemental feed?NO, In fact in order to supply the same 20,000lbs of forage grown in a 1acre food plot for $500.00 you would need to spend almost $5,000 for Corn. So the only advantage to Corn is buying a little during hunting season for the purpose of drawing in deer to shoot....Not Hunt.

Are the timers on feeders set to go off at dark or at daylight for the purpose of killing deer near the feeder? Daylight

Are the benefits of Corn equal to Food Plots or even fertilized native browse? NO, Corn contains less than 8% protein while native browse averages 11% and a quality Clover plot can exceed 20%.

Will deer walk through a food plot to get to a pile of Corn? Yes, I've seen this first hand during the Summer here in Georgia in my back yard. I can set up my camera in the food plot and get 10 pics a week and then pour out a bag of corn and get 300 in 2 nights.

Who is behind legalizing Corn Baiting in most cases? The Insurance Industry.

Why? In order to decrease the number of deer and therefore decrease the number of vehicle collisions with deer.

Bottom Line. If you want to Bait and it's legal where you are located then so be it. Just don't try to compare it with food plots or fertilizing native browse.....And call it what it is.....Population Control.....Not Hunting.

Robert

Bruzer,

I'm not talking about oak trees when they are dropping acorns, etc. that is natural to the area. I agree with you there.

Yes some agriculture plots are "native" to certain areas. I grew up on a ranch and still ranch/run cattle as a side job so I know just a little bit about this........

In your other post you mentioned hand tilling before you had access to tractor. So that means that where you were planting your plot there was not "natively" one there, right.

You really have no arguement for this part, if it was a regulary tilled and worked agriculture plot that the deer were accustomed to than you would not have had to be tilling it by hand or with a tractor you had access too, right? So you were BAITING, nothing more. Granted you are providing some extra nutrition and that is a great thing IMHO, corn provides only carbs that helps keep them warm in the winter time, and thats about it. But if you planted it solely for nutrition for the deer and not to bait them then you would not have a stand anywhere in the general vicinity.

Yes corn feeders go off in daylight hours, but I can't even begin to recall pics of bucks at corn feeders in the middle of the night that have NEVER been seen there in the daylight hours.People that do not live in areas that feeders are legal can't seem to somehow grasp this, but its a fact.

Bottom line is you are baiting my friend, yes it is a more nutritional bait, but it is still BAIT!!!!!!!!! And much more affective than any corn feeder for drawing in mature deer. Given the choice to hunt near a oat, wheat, or "deer plot" field or a corn feeder and I'll pick hands down the field every time! As I said before I've hunted both a bunch, something you have not.


You can paint this however you want if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy at night. But if you still say I'm totally wrong and your totally right then you are a hypocrit. Sorry if thast seems harsh but didn't know how eelsee to word it.

Bill

AMEN

Bill,

IF what you say in your above post is true. It would then be logical to assume that using Corn is a bad decision....Right?

IF as you state.......

1) Food Plots are more of a draw than Corn.
2) Food Plots are more beneficial than Corn.
3) Food Plots are Cheaper than Corn. (On a yearly basis of course)
4) Food Plots are also Baiting.

Why do you hunt over Corn? Seems to me that you would take the necessary steps to plant as many food plots as possible as hunting over Corn just doesn't make any sense on any level.

Robert

The insurance industry wants to reduce deer populations by encouraging feeders? That's a new one. Why don't we blame it on George Bush, like everything else?

Try a food plot in cattle country, or where hogs can get at it. And I'm talking about on a lease, not public or private land.

What ever made you think we don't plant food plots? Corn feeders just happen to be popular too here. Texas has tens upon tens of thousands of acres in oat and wheat.

Bill

Bill,

If you have plots and they are so much better than feeders then why would you go through the expense of using Corn?

I would really like to understand.This is coming from someone who hunts in a state where using Corn is synonymous with poaching.

Robert

Texas,

The insurance lobbyists here in the East are responsible for extended Deer seasons and Baiting being legalized in several states....Maybe it's different in Texas.

Robert

I'm next door in Alabama and will have to disagree with the insurance companies pushing baiting. The folks pushing baiting are the feeder companies and alot of hunters, me included. If done properly through a tagging or permit method, I don't see what it would hurt. I also saw one recomendation that suggested any feeder would have to be placed in at least a 1/4 acre food plot. I have no doubt, however, that Alabama will screw it up and we'll end up with the most hairbrained and backwards law you can imagine.

Bruzer ther is one important point I wanted to mention earlier but had to leave for a social engagement with the wife.

Food plots cheaper than corn!!?? I don't think so.

Its quite obvious you are way out of touch with the agriculture industry or you would know that seed oats have gone through the roof in the past few years, wheat I know has increased substantially in price too but I'm not 100% sure how much because we plant little of it here due to it's mouisture intolerance or lack there of.

It takes about 80-100 lbs of oat seed per acre to make a decent grazing pasture for cattle or deer. Seed is HIGH or it was in Texas this year. So you take $25 (for 50lbs) a bag (give or take) of quality seed oat, add fertilizer which reached $600-700 a ton, takes a minimum here of 250# per acre or you are wasting time and $$$. Deisel to plow it, diesel to plant it, plus the hours on your tractor, plus your time.

Oh by the way little 1-3 acre food plots don't work here, we have so many deer that they would have it paved to a parking lot in no time (seen it, been there, done that). Better plan on at least a 5 acre food plot, 10 or more is better and less of a waste of time. I don't feel like busting out the calculator at this late hour to justify my points, I can do it tomorrow if you'd like.

Now you take the average Joe who lives in town, does not have access to a tractor, plow,the time to do it, etc, etc.

Corn here runs about 8.00 a 50# bag. The ave. feeder holds 300#. If his/her feeder spits out, oh say 5# of corn per day that about 150# per month or 1800# of corn per year if he feeds YEAR ROUND 365 DAYS A YEAR. So he has spent about $300 to feed an entire year, vs $100 per acre or so for something that will last about 4-5 months. So food plots are cheaper where??!!

The problem with food plots here is propably 90% of the fellows who hunt live in town, don't have access to a tractor, plow, etc. so they have to live with corn or hope the farmer/rancher who's land they hunt on will plant oats/wheat for their cattle in order for them to have a food plot.

You don't hand till anything in most of Texas unless you have a jackhammer for the rock. Do that for a couple acres then report back to me.

Most average guys here would give their left you-know-what to have food plots all over the places they hunt, but here for most it is not $$$ feasible. They have to rely on the rancher they lease from to provide it if he needs or wants to provide it for his livestock.

I'm too tired to make any more points now, but I hope you are starting to get a clue.

Bill

Bill,

I have more than a clue.....I have facts.

You can verify here.....This is where I buy my supplies.

http://www.cooperseeds.com

The cost of producing 20,000lbs of quality forage with a food plot versus the cost of the same 20,000lbs of Corn.

Duranna/Patriot Clover Plot Costs (1 Acre)

4lbs of Duranna $32
4lbs of Patriot $32
100lbs of Winter Wheat $50
100lbs of Buck Forage Oats $50
50 lbs of Austrian Winter Peas $35
300lbs of 10-10-10 $150
Tractor Rental Weekend $300
Total $650

Corn
Feeder $200
20,000lbs of Corn $3,200
Gas for trips to refill feeder all year $600
Total $4,000

Even with renting a tractor for the weekend it's much cheaper than filling up a feeder all year.......Unless of course you only fill up the feeder when you plan on hunting or just prior....Which I believe is probably the case for most baiters.

Robert

Bruzer, Just curious. You ever been to Texas and looked at their soil. It would be like trying to plant oats or wheat in a parking lot. Some of the land out there just won't sustain a food plot. I've seen deer walk past corn to get a white oak acorn. I've also seen them prefer a green field over corn. Alot depends on the time of year. We shouldn't bash the Texas folks for hunting in a way that is perfectly legal in their state. Furthermore in my opinion the state of Alabama is backwards in their thinking about baiting, unless of course you have a high fence, then you can do what you darn well please. That's an argument for a different day.

I'm not bashing them.....If they want to hunt over Corn who am I to say it's wrong? I'm simply pointing out that the arguments concerning baiting aren't valid. Bill stated that there are thousands of acres of agriculture where he hunts and then claims that he can't get anything to grow there.Doesn't have a tractor etc.....?Which is it?

I'm done here. I will just say that it's not my cup of tea and hope everyone has a good 2009-2010 Season.

Robert

Bruzer, I understand what you're saying. Shooting 4 points isn't my cup of tea, but it's completly legal....
Just saying, he's not breaking any law by hunting over a feeder. I've done it before and enjoy it. If done responsibly, I see no problem with it, and in fact, hope our state adopts a law alowing it. It's going on now, the state may as well sell permits and get some revenue. Baiting is alive and well in Alabama, and I don't see an end to it. Most folks I know who have gotten a ticket (400 bucks) just say "just part of the cost of hunting"

JMJ,

My favorite saying is "Hunt what you want,When you want,How you want with the weapon of your choice as long as it's leagal and encourage others to do the same."

I lease 1100 acres in Cleburne County Alabama myself.(Your land is much much cheaper than Georgia). We good hunting without any baiting.....Just Food Plots and Fertilized native browse.











Robert

baiting is legal in my state. i own 2 farms and live on one of them. one of the crops grown on both farms is soybeans. the whitetail eat acres of beans every year as the plants are growing, so i do what i can to curb the population. i hunt primarily with a longbow, and have several stands here on this farm. i use beans that i raised as it is legal bait, and kill 7-10 does every year (sometimes more) just in an attempt to ease the deer pressure on the spring bean crop. at one time the state gave me 25 doe tags per year, but i couldn't even give away that many deer. i can understand some people not agreeing with baiting, but in my area the deer will destroy your crop without some form of population control, and a bait pile 15 yards from a stand does and excellent job of getting them within easy bow range. my state game folks came out to the farm and said "yep, you have a deer problem. let us give you 50 control tags and you can shoot them throughout the year, but you have to leave them where they fall." i didn't agree with waisting good meat, so i bait and kill them during the season and give many away.

Nice deer Bruzer. I agree, you don't have to bait to kill deer. On our lease (12,000 acres) we hunt clearcuts and food plots. If there's a good acorn crop, we hunt the bottoms. We killed some nice ones this year also.



The second is a shot from the ground blind just after I shot him. Nice 8, but you can't tell much from the picture. All of these were taken on food plots. Legal baiting.

Thats not really a fair comparison, NO ONE I know puts 20,000# of corn in one feeder each year. Perhaps you missed the average of 1800# per yr per feeder I mentioned above. We have 6 feeders on the 750 acre ranch we hunt and we don't even feed 20,000# a year with 6 feeders. Also the feeder is a one time cost, you don't "buy" a new feeder every year. I have feeders that are ten years old.

Obviously you were not paying attention when I said a one acre food plot WILL NOT WORK HERE!!! It would stay so grazed down that the deer would get practically no nutrional value from it. I've tried it and seen others try it, maybe in East Texas it might work but the rest of the state has such a high deer density you would need 5 acres per plot for the deer to get any real nutrional value from it. Yes it will still draw them in (bait them) but they will get little nutritional value froma plot that small here.

Another very important cost with food plots here is an electric fence to keep livestock off the plot unless there is one present already. Livestock is present on 99.9% of land in TX. Have you priced fence materials lately? T-post are about $4 a piece. If you have a 1 acre plot, an acre is approx. 200'x 200' or 44,000 sq ft. So figure 40 t-post per acre (one every 20ft) or $160.00 plus wire, times that by five for a five acre plot. Don't forget the fence charger, min of $100-125 for a decent charger.
Granted the fence is a one time cost like a feeder but it still has to be included.

Bill

I've got a feeder I run from August until April. It spits out 5 pounds in the morning and 5 pounds in the afternoon. That figures about 300 pounds per month. At 16 bucks for 100 pounds (that's what I pay) that's 48 bucks. You figure feeding 8 months thats 384 dollars. I think Bruzer is trying to compare how much corn you would have to feed to equal the nutritional value of a one acre food plot. It's really apples to oranges. Alot of folks can't afford, don't have the means, ect to put in a food plot, but could afford 50 bucks a month. At least the deer would have something to munch on. A little corn is better than nothing, and nothing is the case for alot of folks around here. I have nothing agaist food plots, but neither do I have anything agaist feeders. I consider them both baiting. I am considering some type of year round feeding this year since our little place seems to have an abundance of young bucks this year...

Oh I've been paying attention.....Especially to your last 2 posts....... As you've proven my point.

The 2 mind sets......

1) Corn Baiters - Put out just enough Corn to keep the deer on a pattern for shooting when the season is in and not concern yourself with helping the herd at all because it's just too darn_________ (insert Hard,Expensive etc...)

2) Hunters - Invest/Add value to the existing native browse with supplemental fertilizing. Plant perennial food plots which will provide a high protein food source to sustain the wildlife (not just the deer) through the tough months.

No matter how you slice it.....Food Plots and Baiting ARE NOT the same. I take 4-5 deer per year but I am supporting a herd of deer and other wildlife with my property management. Although Food Plots and Baiting have 1 thing in common.......Holding Deer....That's where the similarities end.

Bruz

Hey Bruzer, re: your figure of 20,000 lbs of forage per acre. Is that 20,000 lb of DRY MATTER or 20,000 lb. AS FED?

20,000 lb of wet clover equals about 2500- 3,000 lb of dry matter (hay). 20,000 lb of corn equals about 18,000 lb of dry matter. And dry matter is what you have to figure when you're calculating feed intake. Water don't count.

Here in Pa, average yield for alfalfa is about 5 tons per acre on a DM basis. I know your growing season is longer than ours but doubling our production seems like a stretch. Plus your summers are hotter, I'm sure you have a summer slump when nothing grows well.

Dale

Dale,

I got the yield numbers for the University of Georgia study on Duranna Clover production. The dry yield is 4,000lbs in year one and then reaching 4-5 Tons per acre based on the report I read. The 10 tons was not "dry weight" as clover is eaten directly from field stand that is the number I was told to use by Dr. Kent Kammermeyer.

I will try to find the article and post a link.

Here are a few shots of our plots in the 2nd year. Each plot averages about 1/2 acre in size (converted loading decks on a pine plantation). As you can see the first Summer the Clover was spotty and we believed that we had wasted our efforts....By the second cutting in October it was thickening up well and we applied 0-19-19.

Summer Pics







October Pics







Hunting Pic.....Trying to get my nephew his first deer.

[img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g114/Bruz69/IMG_1178.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g114/Bruz69/DSC_0014-8.jpg[/img]

Robert

Here's a link to a good article on Durana.

http://www.buckmasters.com/bm/Resou...ole-Truth-About-Durana-White-Clover.aspx

Bruzer, I plant food plots (about 40 acres total) and I use corn feeders, so what does that make me a hunter or a shooter? Often times I don't hunt on either but hunt draws and passage areas, so what does that make me?

Bill

Bill,

If someone is hunting around a Corn feeder then they are a baiter in my opinion. In Georgia the definition is a limit of 200 yards and out of sight. In Alabama it is defined as bait anywhere on the property.

You know how you hunt....I don't. I'll leave that determination up to you. I'm not trying to judge anyone who is taking game legally....My issue is with the terminology.

I have just been issued a Hog Permit for one of my farms. This permit allows me to bait the Hogs,Hunt at night, From a vehicle and use a 12 volt light. The farmer needs Hogs removed so that his peanuts and Corn have a chance to survive. I will not claim to have hunted these Hogs......I am strictly population control. I will eat the meat but you won't see one going on my wall....The bait just makes it too easy....In my opinion.

Of course the "Bow Only" hunters will say rifles make it too easy and then the "Traditional Archery" hunters will say that "Machine Bows" make it too easy....and so on and so on.

To each their own....Whatever makes everyone happy as long as it's legal. Just don't shoot an animal over a pile of Corn and call it a trophy.....I don't get that.

Robert

BTW Bruzer nice plots in the pics above.

Obviously we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't see how hunting over a fertilized food plot that put there for the main purpose to attract deer is any different "BAITING" than using corn. And don't give me the nutritional thing excuse, if that was your main purpose then you wouldn't have a nice cozy box stand sitting right on top of it to shoot (not hunt) deer out of.

To state in an earlier post that your a "hunter" because you shoot deer off a food plot put there to attract deer and someone who does the exact same thing but with corn is a "shooter" is one of the most hypocritical things I've heard. That has nothing to do with the nutrition factor, BOTH of the above persons are actually "shooters", they are just using different bait.

Planting food plots here is much different here than in Georgia, much more labor intensive than what you have to do, trust me. If you ever came here and tried it you would understand what I mean and I'm sure your attitude would change slightly. It's very easy to sit in your personal locale and say "oh its not that hard here, so it must be like that in the rest of the country". I can do it because I own my own tractors, plows, grain drills etc. But the average Joe living in the big city working 50 hrs a week and a house full of kids, etc., etc. it just isn't quite that easy.

To end this, believe it or not, I'm not actually a big fan of corn feeders, but if a person stands a chance of holding deer on his property here he better have one or two because every other swingin' joe within the area will have several. Not saying thats right or wrong that's just the way it is.

Good luck to ya',

Bill

It can be alot different, especially for a bow hunter. One trick is to put the bait on the ground behind a stump so the deer can't see you get in position. With bait you can do a lot to set up a shot that can't be done with a food plot.

I don't bow hunt. But I can see your point. With a firearm it is no different though.

Bill,

To be precise that stand is a 2 man tri-pod. The primary purpose of the stand is to give young hunters a chance to see some deer. The food plots on this property were placed based on the location of the loading docks. I had this stand here prior to the food plot being installed because when we initially scouted the property we found a huge trail and bedding area on the rifge across from it. The plot gets a lot of use but as with most plots the activity is generally at night.

There were 5 deer killed from that stand last season and none of them were taken by me.....The food plot is off to the left about 160 yards through the woods but what you are actually hunting from this stand is a travel route from a bedding area 140 yards in front of the stand as seen in this pic.



The deer come off that ridge and walk down toward the stand and cross behind it into a thicket....Not to the food plot.

In fact this is the only time I've seen deer in the plot in 4 years......and No I didn't shoot them. They were fawns and they ate in the plot for about an hour.





This year is the closest I ever came to killing a deer in this plot. I took 1 of 3 mature Does that came running out of the bedding area and crossed the road behind me along the edge of the plot.

I also took a buck from this stand on the ridge in front of the stand that chased a Doe from the bedding thicket.

Robert

You have to tell me where you are getting seed at that price????Up here in Northern Wi. Red Dyno Clover is $13.50 a Lb ,20 lbs per acre,a 50 lb sack of Rye seed is $35.00, Lime 10.50 per 40 Lbs X 2,000lbs an acre you dont even want to know how much Biologic is.We havent even discussed My Tractor$25,000,Fuel, cost of used disk$2,500.00 ,used seed drill $5,000 and I have not even brought up how most seed and fertilizer has doubled in cost since last year.Take a guess at what 2 acres of alfafa cost to plant.Much cheaper to bait.

Funny you should mention that. One of the best ways to hunt a corn feeder here, if you want to kill a mature buck, is too hunt 200-300 yds away from the feeder on a main trail or draw/canyon the deer use going to the feeder. The reason is mature bucks usually avoid permanently placed corn feeders like the plague except at night. Sure young bucks and most does will stroll right up to a feeder, but your big mature deer will hang back well out of sight of the feeder. I have seen this several times and have taken some of my best bucks that way.

Even if their is a hot doe at the feeder I have personally witnessed a buck come out the brush chase her away from the feeder and out of sight of the feeder. He usually running the whole time until he is out of site of the feeder. If he can he will keep her blocked away from ever going to the feeder.

BTW on our place our tripods or stands are placed 130-175 yds away from, but in sight of the feeder. Many of our deer are killed a hundred or more yds away from the feeder, even the complete opposite direction in the stand from where the feeder is. We in fact discourage shooting deer right next to or under the feeder unless it is a kid hunting with us, because it offers them a clear broadside shot at an animal standing still. Less chance of them making a gut shot etc. due to their inexperience and excitement.

So if we kill a deer 200 yds away from the feeder that wasn't even coming directly to the feeder, does that still make us "shooters" because their was a feeder in that general area? Be honest now, how is that any different than you "shooting" a deer that was 160 yds from you "food plot"?

Bill

Huntz,

If you look at the link I posted you can go online see the prices we pay.

www.coopersseed.com

As far as the tractor we used to rent them with attachments for $300 a weekend or use our 4 wheelers. Now we give a free membership in exchange for doing the tractor work.



This is my 4 wheeler set up, 900lb Tuffline Harrows,Electric Spreader and Chain Drag....The one overseeing the operation is my youngest.:)



Robert

Bill,

We will have to agree to disagree. As I've said several times....I don't have a problem with someone shooting near bait as long as it's legal...It's just not for me.

Robert

Bruzer,that does not lead to a site ??????? Huntz

Huntz,

Sorry....Here's the link.

www.cooperseeds.com

This one should work.

Robert

Yep, and its no different than hunting a field.

For that coin I'd go dumptruck of apples....you could keep them in a tidy acre with sore bellies for most of the season.

Bruzer,That got me to a site,but all they sell is vegetable seed????????No kind of grass,alfalfa or clover.

Huntz,

When you click the link you then need to click the "Wildlife Seeds" link with the picture of the deer on the home page. Once there you click on Summer or Winter Deer plantings and it will bring up the descriptions and price lists.

Robert

Not for you? Thats exactly what your doing!

Bill

I've shot feral hogs over bait and have hunted deer in a state with more feed than Jackie Bushman's or Ray Scott's warehouses.

Sorry, there IS a difference, unless you call a whole state a feeder or bait?

I'm thinking trail convergence on a feeder versus a 50 acre field is more than 200 yds...actually I know it is.

I can't wait until Buckmasters starts the phenomenon of "feeding" pronghorns in Wyoming. That would make me want to go west again...its all good.

That's what I thought. Therefore, you can't directly compare 20,000 lb of wet forage to 20,000 lb of corn.

Quick math shows a 150 lb deer will eat 3.75 lb of dry matter in a day. It takes 18.75 lb of forage (20% DM) or 4.2 lb of corn (90% DM) to get that amount.

Had you put your small plots in after you found the deer trail and bedding areas, I would call them bait. Since you said they are old log landings and you had no control over where they were sited, I would call them a food plot.

Dale

Dale,

I just got off the phone with Chris Agee at Pennington Seed. These are the numbers I was given.

30,000-40,000 lbs per acre per year of wet forage.
4,000-5,000lbs of Dry Forage Per Acre containing 25% Protein

Our deer here average 140lbs or so so 3lbs of Dry Forage Per day.

So if the deer ate the food plots only we could support between 4-5 deer per acre per year.

The initial Cost for each 1 acre plot is roughly $500. Each year after the cost to fertilize and cut is $150.00

This breaks down to $100 per deer the first year.......$30 per deer the following years.

The area we are in has a deer concentration of 40 deer per square mile and we have roughly 2 square miles.

We have 7 acres of food plots so we can feed 35 Deer per year for a total of about $1,000.

Corn is 90% Dry Matter. So it would take 3.3lbs of Corn per deer per day or 1200 lbs per year.

Corn costs around $11.00 per 50lb bag here so that equates to $264 per deer per year.

To feed the same 35 Deer would cost $9,240 with Corn at a much lower protein level.

Of course deer are browsers so this would never happen but I just wanted to show how much less expensive a quality food plot costs versus the same amount of Corn.

So if Clover Food Plots.......

Cost 80% Less after the first year

Are more attractive "Bait" to Deer than Corn.

Improve the health of the wildlife.

Are much easier to maintain.

What reason would anyone have for using Corn?

Robert

Got it ,thanks huntz

Bruzer, If you're gonna try to come across as an expert on baiting, maybe you should know the law. Alabama law does not say anything about bait "on the property". We have one tract that's 3200 acres. You're saying one feeder would shut down 3200 acres. That's insane. I can promise you are wrong on that statement. A good friend of mine is a conservation officer in one of the counties I hunt. He told me face to face, eye to eye, that as long as the feeder was out of sight, the state had no problem with it. I've bow hunted this year 300 yards from where another member of our lease was hunting on a feeder (he, by the way, got a ticket). Feeders are not illegal. Hunting directly over a feeder is.

JMJ,

First of all......I never claimed to be an expert on Baiting.....I haven't hunted where it was legal. I can however read and ask the local Game Warden questions.

Your Game Warden and mine need to get together....The law in Alabama states........

It is ILLEGAL to:

1. Hunt any area where baiting/feeding has occurred until 10 days after all bait/feed has been removed or consumed.
2. Hunt any game animal or bird with a gun or bow and arrow except during daylight hours, with the exception of raccoon and opossum which may be hunted at night as prescribed by law.
3. Shoot or hunt a turkey from a treestand with a firearm. All other legal game animals and birds may be taken with a bow and arrow or firearm from a treestand.
4. Take a deer, whether dead or alive, from the waters of this State.
5. Use live decoys except when hunting unprotected birds or animals.
6. Use electronic bird calls except for crow calls. Electronic calls may be used to call predators during daylight hours only during open hunting season for that species.
7. Hunt by the aid of fire or smoke, whether man-made or natural.
8. Hunt resident birds or animals on any floodwaters or backwaters, or islands less than 40 acres created by such.
9. Hunt or discharge a firearm from, upon or across any public road or railroad, or the rights of way of any public road or railroad. You may not hunt or discharge a firearm within 50 yards of the right-of-way of any public road, highway, or railroad with a centerfire rifle, a shotgun using slugs or shot larger than number four (4) shot or a muzzle loading rifle .40 or larger.
10. Willfully throw or cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight or artificial light from any motor vehicle while the vehicle is on any highway or public road and casting said light on any real property, between the hours of sunset and sunrise.

The Game Warden in Cleburne County considers "Area" to mean the property you are hunting on as stated to me in no uncertain terms. His direct quote was "If I find Corn I will write citations".

I am not going to debate the legality as "Baiting" is clearly illegal based on the printed law and unlike Georgia there is no definition of distance or line of sight.....Bait at your own risk...We aren't.

Also, were you aware of the poacher baiting on your club?

Robert

The key word is AREA. Just say Joe Blow has property joining my property. He puts a corn feeder 2 feet from my property line, without me knowing. You're telling me that the Game Warden is not going to allow me to hunt my property that I bought and paid for???????
They can not do that. Whomever you're talking to is either a hard &@S or a dumba$@.
Let him take that case to court agaist one of these big land owners that have the Governor and everyone else bought off.
I respect the job that Conservation Officers do, as I stated, I have a good friend that is a Game Warden. If I were breaking the law, he wouldn't hesitate to give me a ticket. He does, however, use good judgement. What your man is saying is off base. You cannot shut down 3000 acres because somebody that lives on the property has a corn feeder in their back yard. Can't do it.

JMJ,

I'm just stating what I was told by the man with the ticket book.....I also called Montgomery the first year we leased the property and asked for a definition of "Area" and they stated that it was left up to the officer's judgment.....So bottom line...Even if we wanted to run feeders we wouldn't....And we don't because it's just too expensive with the price of Corn and Gas these days.

I've got to go buy 400lbs of Corn this week to stock the Hog Feeders on my Georgia Club and I am dreading it.

Robert

Robert: I understand what you're saying. I guess it's a judgement call by the officer. It's a problem, definately. I guess my beef with the Conservation Department is this: They claim to be agaist baiting because (they claim) it spreads sickness (I can't spell disease). Anyway, if they do think it spreads sickness and is a problem, then feeders should be outlawed completely. Personally, I think the Moultrie folks are pushing it to be lawfull to hunt over corn, and some of the old guard in the Conservation Dept won't go for it. Again, to each his own, I'm not going to bust a guy's chops for paying alot of money to lease property and hunting over a feeder. I know lots of guys who do it. One guy does it all year, and hardly ever shoots a deer. He just likes to know when he goes out, he will see deer. Abuse can be found anywhere. Good luck on your lease

JMJ,

Thanks and same to you....Good Luck this year.

Robert

After reading this thread I guess we are all now "master-baiters"

Your numbers look reasonable and comparable now, maybe a bit skewed towards the food plot. That's what got me started earlier, your 20,000 lb figure without a DM conversion wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

I do have a couple of additional comments/questions.

How long does a clover food plot last? Up here, about 3 years is all we can get from a red clover field, then the clover is gone. If you want more, you have to reseed.

You may already know this, but lime is very important. Clover does better with a pH above 6.0, alfalfa needs 6.5+ for the best growth. The breakdown of fertilizer causes the soil to become acid.

The protein content isn't 25% year round, once the clover matures, protein levels drop to about 12%. The only way to keep it high is to mow it on a regular basis and prevent it from blooming. I doubt you get much growth in winter, I know our alfalfa is dormant from Dec. to April.

If I was buying a large amount of corn, I sure wouldn't buy it by the 50# bag. 35 deer times 1200 lbs, divided by 56 lb/bushel=
750 bu. Current avg. market price as reported by Pa. Dept of Ag is $4.18 per bu for a total yearly cost of $3135. Considerably better than your $9000+ figure.

Of course, 750 bu is about a tractor trailer load, you better have a good sized bin.

Anyhow, to answer your last question

"What reason would anyone have for using Corn?"

I would use corn to lure the deer off the posted property next door and onto the property I have permission to hunt. There is no need to feed year round as the deer have plenty of feed, it is a matter of getting them in a particular spot at a particular time so they can be shot. Which is exactly the reason the Pa. Game Commission recently legalized baiting in certain parts of the state.

Dale

Dale,

Duranna and Patriot Clovers are new "Super" strains of clover developed with the assistance of the University of Georgia and Pennington Seed....There are test pastures that are in their 8th year and the clover has been found to be almost self sustaining.During development the Duranna was the first clover shown to have the ability to overtake fescue and bermuda when overseeded in pastures. My club plots are in their 3rd year at this point and show no signs of diminishing.

Here is a link to a very good article on the Duranna.

http://www.buckmasters.com/bm/Resou...ole-Truth-About-Durana-White-Clover.aspx

The lime is not an issue as the Nitrogen in the fertilizer causes the acidity rise in soil and we use fertilizer without nitrogen such as 0-19-19 or even 0-0-46 as the Clover produces it's own Nitrogen. Duranna and Patriot prefer a PH of 5.5-6.5 and that is fairly easy to maintain once achieved. The issue of course with using loading decks was that the initial PH was very acidic and required bulk lime deliveries in order to bring it into range.

The plan was to manage the clover by cutting and fertilizing twice per year in the Spring and early Fall. The deer and turkey have however kept the clover at around 3" in height in all of the plots which with Duranna promotes even more horizontal growth so the last 2 season we have simply fertilized.


Robert

If you don't bait pretty much year round it isn't very effective at concentrating deer. The idea is to get them patterned to visit an area.....just like a feed plot, or an agricultural field, or an oak grove dumping mast.

Same as so many of the others, hold the doe and the bucks will be around.

I have read this thread from the beginning was not going to comment but cant put it off any longer. After seeing what some people have to do to harvest an animal it sure as hell makes me glad i live where I do. No, we do not have baiting here and we dont want it. Then again we dont hunt our back yards. If I was stuck for somewhere to go so be it ,shoot the next deer you see from your back deck .that is not hunting that is population control. Hunting is your own camp with 100 miles between you and the next camp NUFF SAID!

bearslayer, I am glad that you live where you do and not near me because you are an arrogant azz. miles

We just filled up our 27 feeders last weekend.Yeah,I'm 1 of those sorry assed baiters,non-hunting son of a guns and don't give a rip what you think about me.Shot 3 hogs while we were there.Our landowner THANKS US for keeping the feeders filled up and the hog count down,besides turkey season is around the corner.

Miles, I did not want to come across as arrogant but rather just saying that I am glad I live where I do . If there was some way to bring you up here to my hunting area I would. I am sure you would admit after having been one one of our trips at basecamp 6500ft. and hiking from thereto some of the greatest peaks in Canada you would see what I mean. Black bear ,grizzly ,muledeer , high country whitetail ,moose ,and elk. All the best!

Crittergetter,

Don't be so hard on yourself.......Not everybody can be a good hunter. (Meant to be funny.....Just a joke)

What is your reason for baiting versus planting food plots or fertilizing native foods? Serious question.

I'm really curious.....In my neck of the woods Corn is illegal so we look at folks carrying bags of Corn out of Wally World during the season with the same disdain that most hunters reserve for poachers. Food plots are supposed to be so much better at attracting deer(based on the posts in this thread) and they are cheaper......Much cheaper than filling 27 feeders year round. I really want to know.

Robert

Our land is about 80% rocks and 20% soil.In a few places we tried to plant forbes and such but we don't get enough rain to sustain anything.We only get around 25in of rain a year.We do put some fertilizer on any type plant they eat just in case it might help.We feed corn and protein mix to try to help them out.Mineral salt blocks help out.

What are corn prices now? I paid from $8-$10.75/ fifty lb sack last year.

stumpy

I don't know what they are now, but I paid a little over $6/per 50lb bag this past season. We had to buy by the pallet to get that price.

Just put the cows back on the pasture we've been hunting. Wonder how long my food plots are going to last? (grin)

You may not have meant to be arrogant but it sure came off that way. We have to hunt according to the land available. I am not going to quit until I have to. I wish there were free land available to hunt where I live but there is not. miles

It's down a little per 50lb bag to $7.29 per bag.We paid as high as $8.00 per 50 lb bag.

100 miles from us, you'd be in downtown Houston or Austin or San Antonio.

Consider yourself extremely fortunate to live and hunt and be able to make a living where you do!!! I'm envious. Till then I hunt our food plots/feeders as needed.

Edited to add that I've shot exactly one deer close to a feeder in the last appx 8 years... meaning 8 years ago I did the same also....they sure keep em closer though.

Jeff

Jeff, I just spent the weekend with "rockchuker" as my guest at the lease, hunting pigs. He and his buddy Dave, both killed nice ones and we had a good time in general. I was a really interesting for them to detail how deer were hunted in the mid-west. He explained that agricultural fields(corn, soybean and alfalfa) dominated most of their areas of Missouri and Illinois with some areas of sparse hardwoods (compared to ours). I believe they now appreciate that it's a little easier to hunt game when you can see it. Lots of these guys don't truly understand what it's like to hunt a 60,000 square MILE area where you can't see more than 50' unless your on a road, pipeline or highline. It must be nice to walk down a ditch between two fields and have deer run everywhere, or watch a clump of trees and see deer.

lt,

Its even better when they are 350 yds away and you are restricted to a 100 yard gun...and you have to get to that range or 50 yards to truly be accurate with said weapon.

Their description changes drastically when a river system enters the equation...the hardwoods and thorns and pines are not so sparse.

I do agree on the pig baiting. My bud has them all over in OK. They need SHOT, not hunted. (grins)

Good grief,all this uproar.Again,why do I use feeders? Because there isn't a wheat field,alfafa field or soybean field within lord knows how many miles from where I hunt. So what do I do,quit enjoying the great outdoors because I'm "baiting"? Is the feeder a tool for commercial style slaughter on a wholesale basis? Not in my case. In fact,this year I didn't even kill a deer even though I had numerous bucks follow does to my "artificial" food plot;they were just not what I was looking for. Different regions and locales require varied hunting techniques;get over it and express love for the sport we love-deer hunting. Kix

I feel the same way about squirrels...

Kix,

No agriculture anywhere near my Alabama property either.....but we don't bait. We hunt. Yes we plant 6 acres of food plots on 1,100 acres for a supplement and we fertilize native vegetation but we don't bait with Corn,Soybeans or Protein Pellets. We Hunt.

Robert

Guess I missed it, but how do you "hunt"? Still hunt, stand hunt, combination? I love to still hunt, but on most leases I have to wait until the other guys leave the stand for breakfast - just isn't safe to wander around when people are "locked and loaded". If everybody still hunted, it would be worse. Different areas tend to develop methods that work best, not because the people aren't "hunters" and are looking for an easier way. I'm not much on stands and feeders, either, but accept that in my area, it is what is practical, and works. Maybe that's why it is legal here? From nearly a year with game cameras watching my feeders, here is what I've seen, in order of most common to least common in numbers and sightings:

Squirrels
Grackles
doves
coons
cardinals and various other songbirds
hogs
possums
some neighbor's dogs
somebody's hog dogs
rabbits
deer
bobcat
woodpecker

Seems to me like all the local animal life is enjoying and benefitting from the feeders, and few of them get shot.

Seems like there are alot of TX hunters defending using feeders, so I feel I should chime in myself. Where I hunt in West TX, if you're not feeding, your neighbors are! There are so many hunters around that if you don't do something to attract and hold deer, you likely won't see any, period. You are also competing with agriculture. We farm wheat, and if deer aren't drawn in by a feeder during daylight hours, they tend to only feed at night. We feed protein during the offseason for two reasons: 1. The health of our deer population. 2. To hold deer on our property. Food plots are not an option for us as cattle and massive hog populations would make short work of a food plot even with a fence around it.

Now, there is the argument of bow vs. rifle hunting over bait. Bow hunting is a difficult proposition, regardless of whether it is done over bait or not. The majority of what we do is bowhunting and the amount of stealthiness and preparation (camoflage, scent prevention) truly make it "hunting" in the eyes of some here. We only have 2 rifle blinds on our property and they are both 200+ yards from any potential target. One overlooks a mesquite flat where deer tend to bed with a feeder in one corner. The other faces a 100 acre wheat field with a feeder in the corner. Neither provide a "chip shot" by any stretch.

Now, along the same topic. There are plenty of hunters who take the sport out of it completely. Most "city hunters", as we so affectionately call them, hunt from their taj-mahal blind with heat and A/C (believe me, I've seen it) set up 75 yds from their feeders with their 300 Ultra Sendero or 30-378 Weatherby Accumark topped with a Zeiss 6.5-20x50. For example, I have family who hunts with a 7mm Rem Mag from a pop-up blind 40 yds from their feeder...and they've been known to miss deer. They also wounded two deer with a compound bow at 15 yds last season that had to be finished off with a rifle.

Baiting is extremely effective, you see a lot of animals, but don't for one minute try to argue that it takes as much thought or skill as more traditional methods like still hunting, tracking, spot and stalk, or stand hunting. It works very well when you are trying to hunt a specific deer. I did it a lot when I lived in Texas, but I don't consider killing deer over bait more of an accomplishment than other methods.
Baiting opponents don't like baiting because it is perceived as being less sporting, which is what recreational hunting is supposed to be. Pro baiters always bring up the midwest corn fields, however, I make a distinction between those hunts.
Traditionally corn fields were planted to make money, not hunt over. With a traditional corn field you also do not control where the deer feed at, whereas you do with bait. Bait is also typically timed, and the deer conditioned to compete to get the limited amount of bait before it is gone, so therefore they come out of cover on command. In a corn field, they come and go as they please.
However, without bait, I don't know how anyone would hunt in South Texas. Maybe over water holes and unbaited senderos, but you I'd hand it to anyone who regularly still hunts deer in the brush country of South Texas.

This is my "pro". They are fun to watch. The orange paint it 20 yds from my ladder stand.

I bait deet all year with Corn, Tomatoes, Ocra, Beets, Potatoes, Apples, Pears, Squash, onions, Pecans, Dogwood, Pine(white),
etc...

I've listened to guys who bait. I don't get it. Hunting is about finding game. The baiting crowd have hunting confused with farming. A good friend tells me how successful his hunts are. Questions found that his hunting technique consists of sitting on the porch and shooting deer in an adjacent farm field.

Most of us like the ways we learned as kids from family when we were introduced to hunting. A lot of the hunters I meet now missed the right of passage aspect of participating in grown up things.
Still, those days are gone and I would rather have these guys hunting over bait from their stands than watching tv at home.

The thing I really wonder about is why most of the bait crowd have to have tha latest hot magnum deer rounds to bag an animal.
If you can find a copy... read "Shots at Whitetails". See what you're missing.

How about you shoot what caliber you want to and I'll do the same.I don't try to tell you what to hunt with so don't tell me.I don't have to read some damn book you think is right and I'm not missing a dad gum thing.GET A LIFE.

You really mad or are you "baiting" for an argument?

WHAT EVER. That's for wahoo and his smart ass remarks.

They bait like H*LL in Wisconsin. Even with the so called restrictions on bait site size. I have yet to see a warden watching bait sites. Either way, I don't bait. I don't hunt with guys that bait. We like to hunt, not sit and wait for something to sneak in to get a snack. I don't shoot a deer every fall, but I am able to shoot them often enough that I've not run out of meat recently. I call what I do hunting, you call what you do hunting, different strokes for different folks.