I am a hunting rookie. I have about 15 kills on hogs and deer.

With bullets I went from one end of the spectrum to the other. Most of the stuff I have shot has been with high frag bullets like the Sierra Matchking and the Hornady V-max. My last two kills were TSX bullets.

My question for some of you with more experience is, does one type of bullet appear to down whitetail deer faster? Penetrators or Frags? No difference?

all depends on if you are a shoulder shooter or a ribcage shooter

I agree that it depends on the game and shot placement as to which way you should lean. And while I like fragmentation, I don't go so far as to use varmint and match bullets. I like basic softpoints and Nosler Ballistic Tip type bullets for deer. With what you're doing now, you've at least come the right direction in using big game bullets, even though those TSXs aren't my favorite for deer sized stuff, unless you're driving them like a bat outta hell. Last two elk I used TSXs and TTSXs on were started in excess of 3300 and 3500 fps, respectively. They worked well. But for softer game I like softer bullets.

I don't want a bullet that fragments, period. I have had several bad experiences, others mileage may vary.

I do like bullets that open fairly quick, provide controlled expansion and offer good penetration over a wide range of velocity.

That may sound like having your cake and eating it too, but bullets that give you all 3 are out there.

IME they work well on broadside, quartering away and high shoulder shots. (deer & hogs).

Some are newer premium bullets and some have been around for quite awhile.

While I semi-agree on the shot placement deal, the deer doesn't always cooperate and provide you the angle you're looking for, so you need a bullet that will be effective in most any scenario.

Frags!

Barsness on the topic.

Don't be afraid to state your own opinion and experiences.
It could start with, "I hate bullets that way over penetrate because....."

Or it could start with, "I hate bullets that way under penetrate because..."

The question is which type put down deer quicker, not which type do you like more.

OK....I hate bullets that wayyy overpenetrate because I only have one to post a pic of....

Ingwe

Oh yeah, and I believe fragmenting type bullets put deer down quicker that non fraggers when you're a lunger and not a shoulderererererer

I agree with JohnMoses and some of the guys above. There are premium bullets out there that offer all of the performance qualities necessary. I personally like accubonds. I prefer to shoot shoulders anywhere from 20 yards to 400 yards with a 7mm WSM (deer sized) and 325 WSM (elk sized). These premium bullets such as partitions, accubonds, ttsx, etc. can handle all situations with aaccuracy, penetration, weight retention, and the expansion necessary to do serious damage.

I don't think you could go wrong with any of the bullets listed.

Cacciatore,

Well, maybe--except both Partitions and AccuBonds were designed to be "partial fraggers." When John Noslers designed the Partition, he had hunted a long time and was pretty well convinced that a bullet that fragments to a certain degree kills deer quicker. That's exactly why he designed the front end of the Partition to come apart--something that an awful lot of hunters think is some sort of defect, that John Nosler simply didn't know any better. They don't understand the reason for it, and have come under the spell of 100% weight retention, whether or not it actually kills quicker.

It's also the reason Nosler doesn't totally bond the AccuBond. Instead only the rear 2/3 or so is bonded. It's made that way not because Nosler didn't know how to bond the entire jacket to the core, but because so many people had whined about how Nosler should build a plastic-tipped Partition.

So they designed the AccuBond the act like a Partition--including the fact that lighter AB's (like lighter Partitions) are designed to lose a higher percentage of their weight to fragmentation. This is precisely because they're more like to be used on deer, instead of larger game.

Except for relatgively rare exceptions, big game bullets cannot be broken down neatly into fraggers and non-fraggers. Instead there is a continuum, from bullets tha come totally apart (such as the Berger VLD) and bullets that retain all their weight (such as the TSX, Nosler E-Tip, etc.).

MOST bullets fall somewhere betweem, and are some combination of penetrater and fragger, whether the Hornady Interlock (about a 50% fragger/penetrater, on average) or the Swift A-Frame (about a 10% fragger and 90% penetrater).

Then the whole thing is complicated by the fact that some bullets expand a lot wider than others, and also fragment to some degree. Even the toughest bonded bullets are at least partial fraggers, because they have lead cores, and lead fragments. Many also lose part of the frontal jacket in fragmentation.

2 bullets that I can honestly say I have never complained about are the Hornady Interlock and the Nosler Partition. The "fraggers" do kill quicker, but I have had the most inconsistantcy with them due to lack of enough penetration. The bullets mentioned above alway do plenty of damage and alway have fully penetrated deer.

The "fraggers seem to do better at distance with the speed I am shooting them, but I have also loaded up some SGK in the 7x57 so it will be interesting to see their performance on deer in that cartridge at mid 2000 fps speeds. Besides they are cheaper than partitions and real accurate.

I took fragment to mean the bullet as a projectile is basically destroyed.

Most all bullets with the exception of the monometals will lose varying percentages of their weight and still retain enough mass to deliver good penetration. I never really considered that "fragmenting".

Bullets that I have had fragment on game were old NBT's and older Sierras. I've been told that this does not occur now, but I do not know, as I haven't shot them in years.

JM

You guys are on the right track with this conversation. I dont think you should use a true frag bullet like a varmint bullet. While they may work sometimes, I would be worried about a shoulder shot.

I am starting to think I may want an in between bullet like a NBT rather than the TTSX I have been shooting. That being said I get the feeling a bullet that does expand a shed a little weight will not necessarily ground a deer faster....

It is also going to depend some on just how big the deer you hunt are. On our little Texas deer anyone who can shoot will have no trouble at all putting deer down with 55 gr 223s or 222s with common run of the mill and mine bullets.
On the otherhand I don't think a 223 or 22-250 would be my first choice for some of the humongous northern deer I read about and see pictures of. Unless I could be assured of being able to PICK MY SHOT

BCR

heck, within 250 yds I just load a plain old heavy for caliber, high sectional density Round Nose and don't worry about it..

If it is going to be that big of a problem, then out comes the 338/06 with a 250 grain RN or the 444 Marlin with 300 grain XTPs..

if the range is too far for those to work.. then I just need to get closer...

guess with that, and my scope set on 4 power, I am sort of low tech by your guys standards...

While covered a few times in the past. The subject is still an excellent one and I appreciate this thread of opinions since it too has been a subject of main interest for me hunting this year.

For my 6.5-284 for longer range Im sticking with the Berger VLD hunting 130 grain for the BC and velocities I can maintain at my hunting ranges.

For my 6BR, Ive chosen a few to run and experience their capabilities at the lower velocities Ill be running them.

Ive both 85 and 95 grain partitions, the 95 grain Berger VLD hunting and 90 grain Scirocco (not the II version but the original that Im told is "softer").

Preferring a broadside rib cage shot like most, it's my opinion that something that does either rapidly expand and/or fragment AFTER penetrating will git er done the quickest and cleanest.

I full expect ALL of them to work fine when keeping track of and using them below the maximum distance they still retain more then the minimum velocity required to perform but it will still be interesting (to me anyway) to compare as close to identical shot placement results as I can muster.

It's a compilation of bullet construction and speed at impact and of course, bullet placement that gets it done quickest in my eyes.

Ive yet to use the VLD on deer but enough information has come in that I feel they will do what is advertised and will be dang tough to beat on whitetail in my neck of the woods.

I'll be better qualified to reply as to my "preference" after season this year but for now, my vote goes to a bullet that penetrates enough AND fragments inside.

IMHO, an exit wound would be neither expected nor required but I know the Noslers SHOULD exit and will get the job done as well.

How the recovery distances compare?.........we shall see, but I'm fully expecting the result of those comparisions to be in line with what Mule Deer is also sharing. Both WORK but I fully expect the fragnmenting bullet to put em down fastest but it will still be informative running the comparison on my own.

If you like penetration and shoot a bullet designed to do so, then break bones.

If you like a bullet to shed 50+ % of it's weight then smash lungs.

Both work well if the shot placement is made on behalf of the shooter.

From my experience with Sierra's (130 SGK in 270 Win.), they are soft, I have had them fail to penetrate a deers shoulder at 100 yards and at around 200 yards I personally have had them totally come apart or work perfectly. The few 300+ yards shots I have taken with them shows what I consider perfect bullet performance. Wide would channel and total penetration.

Thus the reason I want to try the 160s in the 7x57.

I figure I'd have to be a cull hunter to draw any firm conclusions and since that isn't in my future plans all I can do is offer my observations and two cents worth

I've never used a pure varmint bullet on a deer,but have used or seen used(and looked the carcasses over afterwards)a good wide variety of bullets,everything from Nosler Solid Base(semi frag ?)Partitions (in lots of weights and calibers), Sierra,Speer, Hornady,X,AB's,Bitterroots,BT's,etc.

I am not a ribcage nor a shoulder shooter but take whatever is offered,because many of the deer I've shot have not given me a ton of time nor much chance to be particular.

Early on I used Sierra's,Hornady,and Speers;later I started on Partitions in various calibers and weights,and still later I started on Bitterroots(which usually retain 95%+ of their weight, and typically expand to pretty broad frontal areas).I've used the Partitions and BBC's mostly since the 80's because I might be hunting other stuff in the course of a year and want a bullet with a wider range of performance than something that sheds more weight,so I don't really look for the ultimate deer bullet.

According to conventional wisdom, the BBC and the Partition should be the slowest killers but that has not been my observation.Chest hit(pure lung shots)I have had large bucks hit with both stumble along a short distance(10-20 yards?)and collapse,and have had an even greater number collapse to the shot(DRT).The farthest I have had a deer go when chest hit with a BBC was about 40 yards;hit through the chest at 300 yards,he kicked himself off with hind legs and rolled downslope,dead when he stopped.Another large mule deer hit through the chest from above and behind at 400 yards(7mm 140 BBC at 3300 fps)was so instantly dead I lost him in recoil.

I belly crawled with a friends wife to within 400 yards of a nice pronghorn,and gave her instructions on where to hold for a 400 yard shot,she using my rifle,a 270 Win with 130 BBC @3100 fps.The bullet entered near the heart and exited the off side,the buck ran 30 yards or so and collapsed.

Results have been similar with Partitions in everything from the 257 Roberts to the 300 Win mag,and at varous distances from hard off the muzzle to about 500 yards or so.A buck hit in a sage brush basin at 300 yards was lost in recoil from a 270 with 130 Partition.

My largest-ever mule deer(body weight,a true giant)was hit quartering on at about 175-200 yards,with a 140 AB at 3250,bullet striking through onside shoulder,back through lungs, and recovered against the off-side ribe cage.He reared like a stallion,spun,and went 19 paces,blowing blood all the way.

A big whitetail buck hit through the lungs broadside with 150 Sierra from a 30/06 traveled about 75 yards down the mountain before he collapsed.....

OTOH a doe hit by a buddy with a 130 partition,through lungs went about 75 yards,leaving a blood trail my 10 year old son could follow,because he did....

If I were going to pick one deer bullet for deer of all sizes,and distances from off the muzzle to say 500 yards,and wanted a high percentage of DRT's,based on what I have seen, it would be a Nosler Partition.I would bet the Fusion and Reminton CoreLokt UB would be really good as well,but have not used them yet.JMHO and YMMV

My thoughts exactly. You saved me some typing John. Agree 100%.

That's where my conclusions came from. Under controlled situations, often identical stands, bait positions and nearly the same distances from one day to the next. It was not hunting, just culling for science(drop netting unmarked deer was too slow and required too much manpower to do daily) in a series of 200 acre enclosures over 2 years. Between myself and several other grad students, many hundreds(I think 600, the only data I kept was for my fawn and yearling growth project of which I have 245 samples) of deer were killed with a wide variety of guns and loads at first. Eventually we settled on Nosler Ballistic Tips as being the most effective on South Texas deer for us. We didn't quantify the distances run after a hit, it was a seat of the pants observation and we didn't try everything on the market. We were still just beginning to experiment with handloading. Ballistic Tips don't completely fragment, we got wide exit wounds most of the time. They worked well for us for 100s of pigs also. Only rarely did we ever see a particularly large pig(over 200 pounds), and they did well with them too.
Of all of those, I only recall one instance of a Nosler Ballistic Tip "failing" that I witnessed at that time, and that was from short range shot with a .24 cal 95 grain Ballistic Tip leaving the muzzle around 3250 fps. In that case, it appeared that the bullet broke the buck's humerus, but did not destroy the lungs. He ran off a few yards and then layed down. I shot him with a .30-30 and 150 grain factory loaded Silvertips, and he promptly died. I also had one other similar experience with that bullet on a mule deer buck while hunting in Wyoming a few years ago. Anyway, those bullets were being driven too fast for what they were designed for, but only twice did it become a problem.

Oh yeah, and there is plenty of meat damage, which is certainly more severe than with Barnes-type bullets.

exbio: Good post and good info.

Cull hunts ain't easy to find for many of us....

Come here and you can shoot hogs out of farmers fields until your gun barrel melts.

Free of Charge!

JM: Cool!

THAT sounds like fun!

Can it be done over the winter when it's cooler?

Bob, JM, I would like that as well..Nothing like a hot barrel and good company

goodnews: We should go see JM....I will buy and even drink....... bourbon....just don't tell Ingwe.....

I have killed more than a chit load of Texas whitetails using cartridges from the 17 Rem up to the 7mm Rem Mag. My experience is nothing kills them quicker than Sierra Game Kings and Nosler Ballistic Tips.

These are my current deer loads;
.222 Rem = 55 grain Sierra
220 Swift = 63 grain Sierra
243 Win = 95 grain Ballistic Tip
25-06 = one rifle shoots 100 grain Sierras, one shoots 100 grain Ballistic Tips.
270 Win = 130 grain Ballistic Tip
7mm Rem Mag = 140 grain Ballistic Tip.

Lack of penetration has never been a problem for me. Lack of expansion from some brands of bullets was an issue that resulted in several long tracking jobs to recover my deer. All that ended when I started shooting Ballistic Tips and Sierra Game Kings.

I have recovered exactly one 95 grain Ballistic Tip and one 63 grain Sierra from deer. Most of my kills have been bang-flops and I've not had any go farther than 25 yards.

As always, your millage may vary according to shot placement and hunting conditions. As for me, I'm happy with the results I'm getting.

Heck yeah!

But they are a little harder to catch once the crops are in.

I wasted an excellent opportunity to learn more about bullets when we shot pigs in the 80's and 90's. Of course, that info would be obsolete now anyway.

I didn't feel like gutting a bunch of hogs in the summer heat to find 'em, plus the game commission folks didn't want you doing that.

It was good shooting, I learned how to shoot a rifle at night and we helped out alot of friends.

JM

I believe "frags" down them a little quicker.

The 165 gr Hornady Interbonds out of 30-06's have resulted in the shortest travel distance in recent deer shot by our little group. They do bloodshoot meat but don't fragment quite as badly as the lighter weight NBT's.

The 165 NBT out of a 300 Win Mag was making some spectacular kills for a friend until he went to using 200 grain NPTs for everything out of that rifle.

FWIW I personally prefer bullets that are more penetrators; Core Lokts and Hornady Interlocks have seen a lot of use in 180 grain weights from 30-06's and 150-165 grains from .308's

Mule Deer,
I agree fully with what you said, especially the part about the different levels of fragmentation. I was trying to keep it simple. As mentioned by others, fragmenting bullets immediately makes me think of varmint grenades style bullets. I have weighed a good few TSX, Accubonds, XP3, Partitions, a cupncores. Non retain precisely 100%. There are a lot of variables that effect the actual percentage at the end of the day. My goal is to find a bullet that expands and stays pretty consistent and regardless of shoulder or not retains enough to go at a minimum all the way to the offside rib cage.....after that point, it doesn't really matter.

Thanks for expanding my thought though. It probably helps make it more clear.

I prefer a fast expanding bullet over the slower expanding premium bullets. It seems like to me that the rapid expansion blows bigger holes and puts the deer down a lot faster. Some of the fastest kills I've ever seen were with Nosler Ballistic Tips and Sierra Gamekings. It seems like to me, the harder the bullet is, the more likely your deer is to run off after the shot, which still isn't that big of a deer since heart/lung shot deer are dead within 100 yards anyways. From what I've saw, softer bullets drop deer faster at the expense of more bloodshot meat while deer shot with harder bullets tend to run further but you have less bloodshot meat. So its basically a tradeoff. I have settled on plane jane soft point bullets for all of my deer hunting. They seem to give a good balance of expansion with not as much bloodshot meat as the Ballistic Tips.

JM, well it's settled then; Bob and I will come and shoot a hundred hogs each, stay at your place, regale you with lies and eat your food. You get one free legal consult and an anesthetic without nausea and vomiting (assuming no Big Macks before surgery) if you get up here before OBC (you figure that out).

Well you probably will think I am crazy but my favorite for deer is the 100gr Hollow Point at 3600 to 3800 fps in my 264WM drops them in there tracks. It destroys ther lungs or heart or neck and never exits. Shot placement never ruins meat.

It's a deal. Just bring plenty of mosquito dope & ammo. Go to your local John Deere dealer and practice shooting out of a corn picker, as the hogs will run from a pickup but usually aren't afraid of those. Shooting while riding on one is interesting to say the least.

You won't hear me say this much, but this is one situation where an auto is a plus. We'll let Bob dig the bullets out while we head to Natchez Under-the-Hill on the river for drinks and dinner.

JM

Gee....I'm speechless with gratitude...bring me back leftovers..LOL!Will 150 BT's kill them...?

Anything will kill them Bob, as long as you hit them in the ear.

Being that recovery is not paramount or even allowed by the game folks other than removal from the field, I would fling BT's at them all day long. I believe the recovery rule may have changed though.

The issue with hogs is that their boiler room is located more forward than say a deer's vitals. This can get you into shoulder muscle & bone.

And Bob, where is the gratitude? I was going to set you up in a roadside stand selling that hog meat while goodnews and I toured the antebellum mansions in town trying to drum up business. The stand would bring you into direct contact with some of our finest citizenry, and I dare say, would be a cultural opportunity and education that could easily spawn a couple of best sellers.

I can see the title on Oprah's book club list now: Hog Meat Horizons by Bob

Good news and I were even going to hit Fat Mama's on the bluff for margaruitas in an effort to increase sales. Our dedication to Bob's Hog Meat and Stink Bait Emporium is beyond question.

LOL. Just kidding Pard. It would be a good time though, that's for sure.


JM

sometimes you dont get the option to decide, go with the worst case scenario bullet

JM, whoa! I claim title rights to the book and will write the foreword. The title will be "What about Bob?"

JM: LOL! It would be fun!

"Hog Meat Horizons" does have a ring to it.....

From the title, people might think it's the dating journal of a chubby chaser.

Can't say I've had any trouble dropping a mule deer with either a deep-penetrating bullet or one that expands & fragments more. Tremendous damage inside the chest cavity from the fragmenting Berger VLD. Serious penetration from the Barnes TSX. Others were somewhere in between.

LOL! True enough....great name for a new website!

Here in Oregon, some of our hunters prefer Fragmentation...

they don't want to "overpenetrate"

Bob,...we should!

Do you think we could get Ingwe to join us? You know, as sort of a Ninja grandseer?

Tennessee �

The question for me is not which is faster, as my experience with several good bullets (Grand Slams, North Fork, TTSX and MRX) have all provided kills where the animal went straight down. More often than not, in fact, at least for the last few years. Last year I had an antelope run about 20 yards (.257 Roberts/100g TTSX) but also had two deer drop straight down (.300 WM/180g MRX). My son-in-law dropped an antelope straight down with a .30-06/168g TTSX last year and I did one the year before with a .308 Win/168g TTSX. A couple years ago I dropped two cow elk straight down with a .30-06 and a 165g North Fork. Both got back up went straight down again with a follow-up shot. That same year I dropped a buck with a quartering-away shot behind the ribs that became a shot low to the right ham when the buck turned away and stepped forward as the trigger broke. The buck went straight down and the 7mm RM/140g North Fork was found up against the sternum.

The question for me is not what will work when things go right but what bullet do I want in my rifle when things go south.

The quickest I've ever seen deer die is with a 120gr NBT out of a 7-08. Even faster than a 250gr Hornady out of a .338 Lapua. :-)

That 120 gr 7mm BT is a wicked muther at 3100fps out of a 7mm-08,,, 8 deer and a couple of hogs have dropped right there or within 40 yards since I started using it

Coyote_Hunter,

The question was about deer, so your answers involving elk are are irrelevant.

The examples you give of shots on pronghorn and deer would have had basically the same result with a .30 180 Ballistic Tip from the .30-06, or a 150 Ballistic Tip from a .308. I have shot lengthwise through deer with the 180 Ballistic Tip from the .30-06 and likewise through pronghorn with the 150 Ballistic Tip from the .308. The pronghorn was shot at 250 yards as it faced me, and the bullet exited the right ham.

If you're absolutely convinced that $1 or $1.50 bullets are necessary to kill deer or pronghorn on bad angle shots, then why it's your money. But there are a bunch of other bullets that will do what you describe.

As long as their going on the ground who could care?

Irrelevant? Perhaps. Are you suggesting a bullet that can drop an elk in its tracks is inappropriate or inadequate for deer?

I generally hunt elk and deer in the same season and load for the larger of the two. While my experience is much more limited than that of some, including yourself, I have yet to find a load that works for elk but fails on deer.

Here are photos of three North Fork bullets. From left to right:

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from dirt
(500 yards, 145.0 grains retained weight)

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from second cow elk
(~25 yards, 133.2 grains retained weight)

7mm 140 grain @ 3200fps, recovered from buck mule deer
(~150 yards, 131.2 grains retained weight)







The .30-06/165g bullet in the center was recovered from one of the elk mentioned in my post. The 7mm/140g bullet on the right was the one recovered from up against the sternum of the deer (entry point was lower right ham). Both performed very well as far as I�m concerned and I will continue to use them, interchangably, for elk and deer.

Had I not provided the answer above, could you tell which was recovered from elk, which from deer and which from dirt?




There have been many times when I�ve stated my belief that the heavier the bullet and the slower the impact velocity, the less need there is for a premium bullet. That .308/150g bullet was probably doing 2400fps or less on impact. If it had been doing over 2900fps on impact, as was the 7mm/140g bullet I mentioned, I doubt it would have provided the same penetration and may have blown up shortly after impact. While the result might have been the same on a facing shot, the results on an away shot might have been much different.

Having seen some rather disappointing behavior with a variety of bullets, from cup-and-core to mono-metal, I�m aware that not all bullets perform the same. Still, some seem to perform consistently and well over a wider range of velocities and circumstances than do others. My preference is to use bullets I believe fall into this category � North Fork, Trophy Bonded, A-Frame, TTSX, and MRX.



Deer aren�t that big and antelope are even smaller � most bullets will work most of the time and the heavier and slower they are the less likely the bullet will blow up on impact and the better the penetration will generally be. But that�s the rub � heavier and/or slower means giving up trajectory and the cost delta just isn�t that great. Midway is selling 50-count .308� 165g Ballistic Tips for $16.99 and 50-count .308� 168g TTSX for $34.59. That�s difference of about $0.35 per loaded round. In a year where I fill an antelope, deer and elk tag, the difference in total cost will only be $1 or $2 � not even worth mentioning when the other hunting costs are considered.

For my 257 Roberts, handloaded 120g A-Frames run less than $23 per box of 20, while the least expensive Roberts ammo on the Midway site is Winchester 117g Power Points for $21.89. I could handload 115g Ballistic Tips for $6.50 per box of 20 but then I�d be back in the boat of worrying about bullet blow-up on close range shots. For antelope I run 100g TTSX in the Roberts and pay less than $15 per loaded box of 20. Compared to the 115g Ballistic Tips, the TTSX run about $0.42 more per loaded cartridge. The last two antelope I�ve taken were with TTSX (.257Rob/100g and .308 Win/165g) and Ballistic Tips would have saved me less than $1. Whoopee.

For the non-handloader, Midway is selling Federal�s .30-06 ammo loaded with 165g GameKing bullets for $30.39 and 165g Ballistic Tips are going for $34.99. Partitions in the same weight are only $38.40 and 165g Trophy Bonded are $42.99. The Trophy Bonded work out to $0.40 more per cartridge than the Ballistic Tips. While that might be important when target shooting, when you get one or two deer tags a year the difference in savings while hunting with the Ballistic Tips is insignificant.

You are right, it is my money. As a handloader, I shoot North Fork, TTSX, MRX, and A-Frames for about the same cost or less than factory loaded Ballistic Tips � often far less. I get to shoot the weights I want at the velocities I want and the possibility of bullet blow-up isn�t something I have to worry about when I squeeze the trigger. Call me a spendthrift if you wish.

By the way, if money is the issue, why do you shoot Ballistic Tips instead of cheaper bullets that will work just as well for deer and antelope? Midway is selling 150g Federal Soft Points for the .30-06 at $14.97 a box. Stock up now and save...

The original poster's question was strictly about bullets for whitetails, and since his user name is Tennessee, I would assume that elk are not part of the mix. (Unless, of course, he goes west to hunt elk, or draws a rare permit in Tennessee. But that was not part of the question.)

Why do I use Ballistic Tips? I don't only use Ballistic Tips, but in the instances I noted, the pronghorn was taken with a Ballistic Tip because Federal was one of the sponsors of a hunt I went on, and they provided 3 boxes of their premium ammo. In the other instance, I was deliberately field-testing Nosler's latest version of the 180 Ballistic Tip, which has a much heavier jacket in the rear of the bullet, so it acts more like a Partition. (One mistake many hunters make is assuming that every bullet of a certain make/design acts like every other bullet of the same make/design.)

I hunt with a wide variety of bullets because that's my job. In fact, I have hunted with all the bullets you have, and a large number you haven't. This includes North Forks, and I have my own collection of recovered NF's. They are very fine bullets, but are not needed to kill Tennessee whitetails, or even Alberta whitetails.

I have spent the past decade deliberately shooting lots of big game animals on cull shoots (as well as trophy and meat hunts),with a wide variety of bullets. I also observed the other hunters on such shoots, which provides the same information. One year I saw over 200 big game animals killed. Most years aren't like that, but even in an average year I probably see more animals taken, with a wider variety of cartridges and bullets, than most local hunters take in a decade.

The cartridges used have ranged from the .223 Remington to the .458 Lott, and easily totalled over 100, including both the ones I used and the ones I've observed in use.

The bullets have included Barnes X-Bullets, Triple Shock X-Bullets, and Tipped Triple Shock X-Bullets; Berger VLDs; Federal Fusions, Federal Tipped Trophy Bonded, and the (discontinued) Deep-Shok; Hornady Interlocks and Interbonds; North Fork softpoints; Nosler Partitions, Ballistic Tips, AccuBonds and E-Tips; Remington Core-Lokts and Core-Lokt Ultras; Rhinos (from South Africa); Sierra GameKings and ProHunters; Speer Hot-Cors and Grand Slams; Winchester Power-Points, Silvertips, Failsafes and whatever they call their new premium (MP3?); and Woodleigh Weldcores. There were probably some others I probably don't remember right now. Oh, and a bunch of different "solids," but those are not the subject of this thread.

There are several things I've decided after all this:

1) Shot placement is still 90% of "killing power," even with all of today's Wonder Bullets, and more important than foot-pounds or bullet diameter.

2) Fragmenting or partial-fragmenting bullets do kill deer-sized game quicker. This was determined by pacing off the distance animals traveled after being shot in the heart-lung area. The quickest killing bullet I've ever seen is the Berger VLD, but there are a bunch of other good partial-frgamenting bullets.

3) Many hunters who have a firm belief in premium bullets tend to equate price with performance, which (as with many things) isn't a valid assumption.

4) The danger of a bullet not penetrating to the vitals is highly exaggerated, especially by hunters convinced that premium bullets are The Answer. In all the hunting and observation I've done, only a handful of bullets have disintegrated to the point where they didn't penetrate the vitals of the big game animal in question. A couple of these were on deer, and maybe three were on larger game. Of course, the bullet used for most game was selected either for construction or weight or both.

5) At least 10 big game animals should be taken with any bullet before even beginning to draw any conclusions about performance. Odd things happen now and then, even to $1 bullets.

If you want to discuss this further, fine.

THX JB

Mule Deer,
I can truly say that what you posted here mirrors my experiences and the opionions I've drawn from those experiences. The most noteworthy part of this was the statement concerning worrying about standard bullets not penetrating. I've killed deer with such cup and cores as Hornady, Core Lokts, Gamekings, and Pro Hunters in places such as Montana, Missouri, and all over Texas and I've never had one fail to penetrate more than what was truly necessary to kill the animal.

I'm pretty fond of two leaking holes, and a train wreck in between......

Arns9,

Thanks for your additional info.

I'll make one more comment on my experiences. One common notion is that boattailed lead-core bullets separate core and jacket more readily than flat-based bullets. I keep fairly detailed records of each animal I see taken, and eventually decided to look at the data for boattailed and flat-base lead-core bullets.

I found exactly the same number of jacket-core separations, and since very close to the same number of animals were taken with each type of bullet, there was no evidence for "boattails separate more easily."

In fact I have seen two bullets leave theit jackets at the entrance hole. One was a boattail--but the other was a flat-base. In each instance the core continued to penetrate and killed the deer, and apparently instantly. This is because the core in a cup-and-core is most of the bullet's weight.

Mule Deer �

While I respect your experience and read your articles with more enthusiasm than most, the vastness of your experience does not negate mine, however paltry in comparison. And in my world, my experience is what counts.

While no bullet is perfect, some perform more consistently under a wider array of adverse circumstances than do others. That more consistent performance is more important to me than saving a few cents or even a dollar, just as I�m willing to pay far more for reliable transportation than a vehicle that �usually works�.




We are in complete agreement on this.




While there is no doubt that fragmenting bullets can provide dramatic kills, it is also true that such bullets may not provide the penetration needed on a bad angle. I like them for varmints but won�t use them for big game. Others can use what they want but my preference is bullets that stick together.



There is a degree of correlation between price and design, and consistency of performance is a product of the design. I agree, however, an expensive bullet does not necessarily mean the design works as desired. Barnes� XLC�s are a case in point in my personal experience, with very inconsistent performance. Couldn�t bring myself to use the all-too-similar TSX�s on game but have had very good results with TTSX and MRX.



If we are talking about broadside shots on antelope to elk, the limit of my experience, I tend to agree. If I knew every shot would be a well placed broadside I wouldn�t worry about bullet selection. Nevertheless, bad stuff happens � you�ve seen it, I�ve seen it. I prefer it happens to someone else.

If I have to put down a fleeing animal and a THS is all that is presented, a fragmenting bullet is not what I would want in the pipe. The only way to be sure that doesn�t happen is not to load such bullets in the first place. Others are welcome to choose differently.




On this I agree and disagree. Odd things do happen to good bullets but often those �odd things� would be considered rather normal for other bullet types.

If taking a THS I would much rather have a heavy BT than a light one and I don�t need to shoot 10 animals to figure that out. My first big game animal was taken with an InterLock. That was also the last animal I took using a bolt gun and standard cup-and-core bullets. Nearly 30 years later I don�t regret that decision at all.

Some people prefer bullets that are advertised to blow up after impact, like the Bergers. My preference is bullets that provide reliable but limited expansion coupled with high weight retention. Such bullets have worked well for me over the years and I�m willing to pay more for them. If there is a down side to such bullets, other than a minor difference in cost, I have yet to find it.

If there's a downside to using what might be considered super-bullets on deer-sized animals, its that the animals might go a lon ways before keeling over. I have seen this a number of times, and no, an exiting super-bullet does not always leave a blood trail.

In fact I once watched a pronghorn go 250 yards after a perfect lung shot from a super-bullet that apparently didn't expand much, if at all, and the blood trail didn't start until 6-8 feet from where the buck finally fell. If it had been a whitetail in thick cover, it might easily have been lost.

As I stated in my earlier post, in my experience is that any reasonably appropriate bullet failing to reach the vitals on a big game animal is extremely rare. In fact in my opinion it's danger is highly exaggerated. If you have seen it, I'd sure like to hear the details.

I am not talking about "odd things" when I say at least 10 animals should be taken with any bullet to start reaching a conclusion. I am talking about the same probability that you're touting as "more consistent performance." Unless a bullet is used on a number of animals then you have no idea what the range of performance can be.

I am also not talking about only broadside shots on pronghorn and deer. As I mentioned previously, many of the bullets that you dismiss as unreliable will indeed RELIABLY penetrate even on angling shots, and some of them even on rear-end shots.

Though I will also state that the most reliable going-away shot is NOT trying to drive a bullet all the wayu through the butt of an animal into its heart. Even many super-bullets will waver off-line enough to "fail" there. The most reliable rea-end stopping shot is to put a bullet right in the middle of the pelvis. This will drop any animal instantly, though a finisher will usually be needed. A super-bullet isn't required.

One of the reasons some bullets cost a lot is because the manufacturing process is much slower than with bullets that are made in larger factories with faster machinery. Just because such a bullet costs twice as much as another bullet doesn't mean it's twice as good--and sometimes it isn't even as good as some bullets costing less. If you prefer to pay for inefficient manufacturing, fine, but don't try to tell me cost is the absolute criteria of any bullet, because it isn't.

I used to believe, somewhat, in the super-bullet theory even for shooting pronghorns and doe whitetails. Then I gained more experience and decided it was BS. Contrary to what you insist, there are a lot of bullets out there that will pentrate and expand reliably, killing such game quicker than many super-bullets.

In my experience the best deer bullets are those that combine some degree of fragmentation and penetration. This list includes some bullets that would be way to cheap for you to consider, including the Hornady Interlock. I have yet to see an Interlock fail to reach the vitals on any deer, and I have seen dozens of them used in sizes from the 100-grain .25 to the 225-grain .338. And I have yet to see a deer (or pronghorn, or caribou) shot in the heart-lung cavity with an Interlock go nearly as far as they have with some super-bullets. That may not compute in your world, but it does in the real world.

Obviously, it's free country and you can use anything you want, but I am in the business of giving advice to other hunters. After a LOT more experience than yours, I almost always suggest some sort of partial-fragmenting bullet for deer, because they work better than anything else. And by "working" I mean they kill quicker, which seems to me to be the real criteria of a game bullet, not how much weight is retained, how many feet they penetrate, or how pretty they look in a photo.

Mule deer, thanks for spelling out the truth so elloquently.

"1) Shot placement is still 90% of "killing power," even with all of today's Wonder Bullets, and more important than foot-pounds or bullet diameter.

2) Fragmenting or partial-fragmenting bullets do kill deer-sized game quicker. This was determined by pacing off the distance animals traveled after being shot in the heart-lung area. The quickest killing bullet I've ever seen is the Berger VLD, but there are a bunch of other good partial-frgamenting bullets.

3) Many hunters who have a firm belief in premium bullets tend to equate price with performance, which (as with many things) isn't a valid assumption.

4) The danger of a bullet not penetrating to the vitals is highly exaggerated, especially by hunters convinced that premium bullets are The Answer. In all the hunting and observation I've done, only a handful of bullets have disintegrated to the point where they didn't penetrate the vitals of the big game animal in question. A couple of these were on deer, and maybe three were on larger game. Of course, the bullet used for most game was selected either for construction or weight or both.

5) At least 10 big game animals should be taken with any bullet before even beginning to draw any conclusions about performance. Odd things happen now and then, even to $1 bullets."




I must warn you, I am sure that you are aware of the fact that a Popular Lie, is more acceptable than a very unpopular truth. Even Jesus was crucified for attempting to dispell an unpopular truth vs a popular lie.

Current thinking today among some shooters and hunters is that some premium bullets make a bad shot good(ie. shot placement is no longer key), particular calibers also seem to have the distinction of making a bad shot good. This kind of thinking may lead to long tracking jobs through myserable terrain and lost game.

Your 5 observations are the light in the middle of a pitch dark night.

keith,

Thanks!

The odd thing about all this is that there are millions of deer hunters who hunt successfully every year and have NEVER heard of the concept of using the most expensive ammunition in the store, when all they've ever used are factory-load Core-Lokts and Power-Points. It's only among real rifle loonies that $1 bullets have become necessary for shooting 200-pound animals.

What we need for deer is penefragtion.

I've put a couple of non-handloaders at the camp on to Fusions and they've worked really well without costing too much either.

Yeah Mathman,

We started using them last year in my wife's .243. She shot a big doe & a 2.5 year old buck, both broadside, double lung, under 100yrds. I was so happy with their performance, I've already bought their 165's for my .308 this year.

Paul.

It's a damn wonder anybody can kill anything these days.

How in the world did we make it all those eons without the CF Rifle......

Fusions are very good deer bullets, and the Speer Deep Curls should be as well, since they're basically the same thing. I've also had very good results from the Core-Lokt Ultra, though not necessarily any better than from the regular Core-Lokt--or the Power-Point.

One of the most spectacular deer kills I've made was with a 180 Power-Point from a .30-40 Krag. I was hunting in timber and shot a muley doe through the lungs, and she took off on a literally dead run, because within 20-30 feet she ran head-on into a big tree trunk, breaking her neck. I was only 55 yards away and could hear it crack!

Cheers Mule Deer,

That's the kinda story this 'fire needs !

Paul.

Shooting a mountain goat if things go well and have decided to run a 140 berger for the first time ever. Hoping for drt and no rolling and cascading down rock slopes. Have some more tags and plan on using them all fall to see how they do.

Was that a 1895 or a Krag?

It was a Winchester High Wall reproduction by Shiloh Sharps, a really nice rifle with a 26" octagonal barrel and Axtell tang sight. Like a big dummy I sold it a couple years later. It would shoot Power Points into an inch or so.

Then again, it probably helped pay for some hunt somewhere, which is OK. A friend of a friend owns the rifle now, so maybe I can buy it back someday.

I think I remember seeing a 30-40 or a 38-55 in a Shiloh at Bob Wards in Bozeman this year. To be honest I can't remember if it was a High Wall or a 1874. It was nice, but I am a college student, so even if the stars aligned it wouldn't have walked home with me.

I like 1895s in 30-40s. My grandma has an old one that has been in the family for a long time, one of the shorter carbines. It is pretty beat up and has a bolt through the wrist, holding it together. There is a nice picture of a distant relative and a small black bear up on the mountain near the family ranch. That picture was taken in the mid-30s, and it even had the bolt in the stock then.

There is something about an 1895 in .30-40 that appeals to me too, and I probably will end up with one someday.

I have also owned a couple of Krags, a rifle and a carbine. Both shot very well, but eventually somebody else wanted them more than I did.

My present .30-40 is an O/U double rifle, built on a Ruger Red Label shotgun, that I got from a friend. Some unknown gunsmith made it (my friend bought it used at a gun show) and has the 20-gauge barrels as well. It shoots pretty well, and is a nifty little rifle. I haven't taken any game with it yet, but should!

I've shot one of the Browning reproduction 1895's in 30-40 Krag and it was a hoot. We were shooting 220gr Hornady RN's at about 1850fps; they made a heck of a thump when they hit the backstop.

They make a pretty good thump when they hit game as well!

That's what I thought, always wondered how the 240gr Woodleigh would work in the 30-40 Krag, at a sedate 1750-1800fps in a strong action.

Mule Deer �

I think we agree far more than we disagree.

If a bullet doesn�t provide ***reliable*** expansion I don�t consider it a �super bullet� no matter what it costs � which seems to be in agreement with what you are saying. As an example, I expected Barnes XLC�s to be good bullets until I tried them on live game. An unfortunate antelope required a finisher that hit the heart some 20 minutes or so after taking two 7mm RM/160g XLC�s through the lungs. The rest of those XLC�s got used for target practice. Although there is a correlation between bullet cost and design, for both manufacturing cost and marketing reasons, the correlation is imperfect at best and exotic designs are no guarantee of reliable performance. It would seem we agree on that point.

It would also seem we both value quick kills. You claim a fragmenting or partially fragmenting bullet can result in quicker kills and I agree they can be very effective. We agree that placement is 90% of the solution and that the need for deep penetration is relatively rare. I believe we even agree that bullet design can make a difference in terminal performance.

It is probable that I could hunt the rest of my life with factory loaded 180g Power Points/Core-Lokt/InterLock/Ballistic Tips in my .30-06�s and never lose an animal due to bullet design or performance. I think you would agree with that, too, particularly since I never shoot more than 3 or 4 animals in a year and usually less.

So if deep penetration is rarely required and 180g cup-and-core bullets and a .30-06 would work, why do I shoot premiums? Because �rarely� is not the same as �never�, I don�t always hunt with a .30-06 (didn�t have one until 2006 and prefer 165/168g bullets in them anyway), I�ve seen wounds where cup-and-core bullets didn�t provide the penetration I want (my first elk, taken with a 7mm RM/162g InterLock was one) and the Grand Slam/North Fork/TTSX/MRX/Trophy Bonded bullets have worked very well for my hunting partners and myself. While cup-and-core bullets may provide more dramatic and somewhat quicker kills, the bullets we use have provided a high percentage of antelope, deer and elk dropping straight down - and none have gone very far.

Your personal comment about �some bullets that would be way to cheap for you to consider, including the Hornady Interlock� is as uncalled for as would be my suggesting that because you kill so many animals you might not care if one gets away (which I don�t believe to be the case, by the way). My bullet choice is based on personal experience with their performance, not cost. My one experience with a 7mm RM and a 162g InterLock was not what I expected and I haven�t used them in my bolt guns since. I do, however, load them for my leverguns in .30-30, .375 Win, .44 Mag and .45-70.

If you search through my posts you�ll find I consistently suggest matching the bullet and velocity to the application. I�d be reasonably comfortable taking a THS on deer with a 180g .30 caliber Ballistic Tip but would have strong reservations if using a .243 Win/80g BT, particularly at close range. Although I�ve had end-to-end penetration with a couple different animals (I try very hard for broadside or at least quartering shots), only one was from the �wrong� end � and no bullet could have dropped that animal faster than the 7mm/140g North Fork I was using.

Because I tend to hunt elk and deer in the same season, my loads are chosen accordingly. The TTSX/MRX/North Fork/Trophy Bonded have worked just fine on the deer and even antelope and I have no problem recommending them as a result � the deep penetration capability they provide may never be needed, or only rarely so, or it might be needed the next trip out. I�d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Great post Coyote Hunter! I have reloaded the new Deep Curls in my 30-06, 180grn with H-4350 close to book max. They are very accurate, in fact as accurate as barnes TSX which I have found to be the best for accurscy in a few rifles. I can't say how they will work on Whitetails but 180 grn lead bullets have been good in the past. The bonded bullet will help if I have to take a shoulder. I do know though that I had a very special feeling driving home from the range when I had the target sitting on the passenger seat. One elongated hole .30 center to center @ 100yds. I used a COL of 3.30 in my Tikka T3. This is .50 thousands off the lans in my rifle. The cartridge is also crimped with a Lee crimp die. The finished cartridge looks pretty cool all bright shinny and just a bit bigger looking than your normal factory ammo. I have to see how they hunt, I think I have a good idea they will hunt just fine. I know how they shoot and that is excellant. Also is rewarding to be able to buy a 100 ct. box like the old days when I was a young pup. Buckfever1

First let me thank everyone for all the info.
It's great comparing notes......even when we might view things differently.
It feeds food to digest to the old noodle!

The info above is "right up my alley" in thought process.

Being in Indiana, and even though some bigger bore rounds are legal...they just dont hold any interest for me personally.

Out of any of the maggies or 30 cals (and above) over the 308 just have SO MUCH more input into the critter via bullet diameter/bullet weight (normally used anyway) and more than enough energy from the combination to knock the slobbers out of any deer that walks our great hunting lands.

Thats NOT to say all bullets are GOOD for the bigger calibers but it's just my opinion that for normal ranges, normal shots taken the bigger bores just leave less room for "issues" unless someone chooses to hunt with a bullet NOT meant for big game.

An example: With the long time successfully used 30-06, not a "wonder round" compared to so many that have came out since, hunting what most considered "normal ranges".....I just wouldnt worry a great deal about if I was using premium bullets or not....but again thats just me.

Now switch that scenario out to LONG range (regardless of the cartridge used......there DOES EXSIST a "maximum usage range" for the bullet/velocity combo) and the rules change......to me. Not all are going to agree, obviously and that is not in any way a bad thing.

There is no "magic bullet" for all ranges, aka, all velocities at impact....EVEN IF you only take broadside ribcage shots.

Finding a balance we can live with with our chosen bullet choice with the characteristics of NOT blowing the smithereens out of them at CLOSE range yet DOES both penetrate AND open up (either "enough" or radically) at LONG range.....well, lets just say......good luck!

What is "long range" for my 6BR isnt even in any way for my 6.5x284 for deer hunting.

I guess my point is repeating some things most of you are saying and agree with. Sorry about that but feel its worth restating.

The velocity at impact matched to the bullet performance at that impact velocity.>>>TO ME........is the key factor when considering "smaller" diameter rounds. It is for larger too but just feel it's "less an issue". When the remaining energy is pushing the envelope it's just that I feel even more concentration is needed on the bullet's performance. Where that line is drawn is a personal choice but the larger the frontal area of a bullet (larger diameter) the MORE "resistance" will "push back" and does indeed effect bullet performance.

Like all of it, bullet choice, cartridge choice, weapon, range you will shoot one.......are all subjective to your own confidence in YOUR setup and what you have seen as results from it (or others using it)and I doubt a single one of us dont "experiment" with other choices at times.....learning all along the way.

Regardless of the bullet type or design, weight or BC......there EXISTS a velocity range that it will "do what it's supposed to" and will work just fine and dandy.

It's all a simple (ha ha) matter of combining our situation and choices of bullet to one suiting our beliefs NORMALLY gained from either personal experiences or some seen.

It's habitual for us to all "think differently" and every bit as habitual for us to sometimes "change our minds" or simply try out something knew.

All part of the fun and games!!!

CONFIDENCE KILLS......feel confident in your shooting ability with your choices and feel confident in the bullet's performace for ranges used and the result will habitually be DEAD deer.......everywhere from bullet designs from 50 years back to the newest, state of the art, premium bullet.

Bottom line is if we were only allowed one bullet type.....Id find out where it works FOR ME, and use it. Even though we are not so limited, fantastic results are reached with about any of the bullets, within a caliber/bullet weight/velocity/range combo, that provides results where we couldn't ask from much more.

Take your pick guys........they all "work" if intended for hunting, at some range or another, for your choice in bullet placement, range you shoot, and caliber chosen.

The same type of discussion goes on annually in the archery hunting circles on "two blade solid broadheads vs mechanical expanding ones".

Pick your poison. Put where it belongs at ranges it's meant to be used at and .........TAA DAA!

SUCCESS!

My own personal decision to "test" the Partitions vs VLD hunters at differing ranges, out of both calibers, is one more way I get to enjoy our sport, make memories and have fun! They both will "work" if I do my part.

God Bless!

Coyote_Hunter,

Gee, thanks for backing off from this statement directed at me:

"Your personal comment about �some bullets that would be way to cheap for you to consider, including the Hornady Interlock� is as uncalled for as would be my suggesting that because you kill so many animals you might not care if one gets away."

Given all your previous insisting that ONLY premium (and the more expensive the better) bullets are suitable for the hunting you do, I believe my comment about cheap bullets is completely justified.

But your crack about me not caring about losing an animal here and there is completely unjustifiable--even though you weaseled out of it.

You also keep insisting on bring up instances of bullet performance on elk when (ONCE AGAIN) this thread is about whitetail deer. Believe me, we understand why you use premium bullets where you might run into both elk and deer, because you have stated that over and over again.

BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. And we have yet to hear an instance from you about a bullet that failed to penetrate the vitals of a deer.

After this last post of yours I have come to the conclusion that you are a hard-headed horse's ass. I don't lose my temper very often on the Campfire, but you made it happen.

bullet placement trumps bullet construction all else equal

Mule Deer �

First, I have never insisted that �ONLY premium (and the more expensive the better) bullets are suitable� for the hunting I do. Do I have a strong preference for certain bullets? Yes � including North Fork, Barnes TTSX and MRX, and Speer Trophy Bonded, all of which have performed very well for myself and those I hunt with, even on deer and antelope. Although I no longer use them, Grand Slams were my choice for 20 years. Are these bullets more expensive than cup-and-core bullets? Yes. Do I care? No. Do I chose them because they are more expensive? No, rather in spite of it. Do I use them exclusively? No. (But mostly.)

When I have recommended cup-and-core bullets I have also suggested going heavier than I would with the bullets listed above and/or keeping the maximum impact velocities lower. This year, unless I get my butt in gear and get the throat reamed so it can take my handloads, I�ll likely be doing exactly that with my latest .30-06 acquisition. I�ve been shooting Winchester 180g PowerPoint ammunition through it and doubt I�ll change.

I challenge you to show any instance where I remotely suggested that �the more expensive the better� when it comes to bullets. Although there is an imperfect correlation where cup-and-core bullets are generally less expensive than �premium� bullets, performance is not determined by cost. I�d rather shoot cup-and-core bullets than try XLC�s again. Disappointing results with the XLC�s and reports and photos of unexpanded TSX kept me from ever trying TSX in the field, although they shot great in every rifle I tried them in. It wasn�t until the poly-tipped TTSX came out that I tried Barnes bullets again. Very satisfactory results with the 168g TTSX on antelope finally prompted me to try the 180g MRX I had loaded some time before the TTSX were available but had been reluctant to try on game. The MRX worked great on deer when I couldn�t find any elk. If �more expensive� determined performance, I guess the MRX should be about twice as good as the TTSX? Nah...

The reason I don�t talk about bullets failing to penetrate to a deer�s vitals is I�ve never had such a failure. I�ve never shot one with a standard cup-and-core bullet, either - just Grand Slams, North Fork, and two last fall with my .300 WM and 180g MRX. My hunting buddy for the last 12 or 13 years has a similar �problem� (no failures), but to my knowledge he�s only used Trophy Bonded on his deer. Between us we�ve recovered exactly one bullet from deer, a 140g North Fork, and it went the distance lengthwise, stopped by the sternum.

I bring up bullet performance on elk because a) that is where most of my meager experience is, and b) because a bullet that expands reliably and penetrates broadside on elk, with exit or not, is likely good enough for a long angle on deer or antelope. That, at least, has been my experience. When the deer start running off I will gladly change my recommendations.

The original poster appears to be from Tennessee based on his name. The last I knew there were over 1,000,000 acres of bean fields in Tennessee and a fellow hunting those fields might want something that shoots a little faster/flatter than a .30-06 with a 180g bullet. The poster also mentions hunting hogs so it is ***not*** �strictly about bullets for whitetails� as you claimed in a previous post. We don�t know what cartridge(s) the poster uses but the fact that the poster mentions using V-MAX suggests to me something smaller than a .27 caliber. (Yes, I know that Hornady makes V-MAX in .277� and .308� diameters.) My guess would be something from .22 to .25 caliber, which puts us in the land of fast and light, an area where I really prefer something besides cup-and-core bullets. Finally, because the poster used TSX bullets for his last two kills and didn�t mention cost as an issue, it is a fair assumption that cost is not the primary concern.

In my original post in this thread I talked about the following:
Antelope with a .257 Roberts/100g TTSX (20 yards)
2x deer with a .300 Win Mag/180g MRX (both straight down)
Antelope with a .30-06/168g TTSX ( a few feet at most)
Antelope with a .308 Win/168g TTSX (straight down)
Deer with a 7mm Rem Mag/140g North Fork (straight down)
2x elk with a .30-06/165g North Fork (both straight down)

Your response was to jump on my case for mentioning the elk, saying they are irrelevant. That is, at best, debatable. Frankly, I think a .30-06 with 165g North Fork bullets is a pretty fine combination for deer.

You then got on my case for suggesting bullets that cost �$1 or $1.50� when in fact the TTSX I mentioned and the TSX the original poster ***is already using*** cost virtually the same amount, about $0.60 each. The 180g MRX are more, about $1.30 each, but I suspect a 60 cent 150g or 168g TTSX would work just as effectively on deer. In fact, I would recommend them � I used the 180g MRX only because I was hunting elk and the .300WM with 180g MRX is what I had in my hands. (The MRX worked just fine on both deer, though, with a stem-to-stern pass-through on one.) The North Fork bullets cost about $1.50 but I really don�t care � they work very, very well, provide outstanding accuracy and don�t ruin a bunch of meat like fragmenting bullets often do. Wish I could get them in .257� for my Roberts...

I am not �absolutely convinced� that premium bullets are needed for deer or antelope, even on bad angles, but I definitely don�t like fast and light cup-and-core bullets for such shots. Nor do I necessarily want to go heavier or slower. The premium bullets I use add a buck or two to the cost of a hunting trip that costs several hundred dollars at best and often much more. In return I get the peace of mind that comes with very consistent bullet performance, regardless of range or animal size or angle, which is worth considerably more to me than the additional bullet cost. They have worked well or I wouldn�t continue to use and recommend them. And yes, the most expensive ones, the North Forks, are still my favorites - in spite of their cost, not because of it.


Finally, and most importantly, it was not my intention to suggest you don�t care if you lose an occasional animal. As I said in my post, I don�t believe that. I could have found a more appropriate comparison, or at least a better way to phrase it, and I apologize for not doing so.


The question for me is still not �What will work when things go right?� but rather �What bullet do I want in my rifle when things go south?�
Just call me a �hard-headed horse's ass�...

Coyote,

So let me get this straight, you've never shot a deer with a cup and core bullet. Yet you feel the super premiums are superior to CC's for deer.

Allrighty then....

Bill

Shot placement trumps everything if you are wanting DRT....

Beyond that nothing is ever guaranteed. And I even thought that a 180 Partition out of a 300 mag should EASILY give an exit on a lengthwise shot on a 130ish pound deer, but they didn't... They did kill every time though. But it bothered me and I've not really been bothered since switching to the X type of bullets... Have yet to recover one in game. That way I'm prepared for any shot offered period. With some bullets other than monos I have to be picky.

Of course the other side of the coin is an older friend... 220 swift, some light HP and shoots every deer in the flank broadside and DRT is the result every time.

I must be one lucky son of a gun. In 50+ years of hunting, and putting more than a few animals on the ground I have had the " when things go wrong " scenario happen to me once. That was because of my youthful stupidity. I have heard the old saw about the animal taking a step just as a shot was let off,etc. Again, never happened to me to the extent that the shot placement was bad. I pick and wait for my shots,my freezer has been filled with elk and deer for many many years every year,and the only premium bullet,if you can call it that, I ever used was a few years I shot a 7 mag with partitions. Maybe three hunting seasons in all. Mostly I shot Sierra GK through it and except for a 45-70, 44 mag and a muzzle loader, all my loads are with Sierra C&C in a .308, .06 and 6.5. Back in 69 or so,I did shoot an elk with .308 remington bronze point.

Last year, one of the biggest bulls I have shot and one that took me twenty years to get the tag,I still waited for the shot and put a 30-06, 180 gr GK at the base of the neck. DRT.

Pick the bullet design to do the job for the animal you are hunting, use it at the impact velcities it was designed for and put it where it should go and you will have a dead animal on the ground every time.

Pick a high frag bullet driven at +3000fps and shoulder hit and animal,or even rib shoot it and you will probably have cripple to track.Pick a solid mono bullets and zip straight through an animal too far back in the lungs,gut shoot it or too high to just nick the lungs or spine and you will have the same tracking scenario.
Too many guys and some gals have never grown up where they had to make a box of twenty centerfire rounds last many seasons, and were let go hunting with only 6 rounds for the shot gun and had darn well better come home with at least 5 kills.
You need adequate penetration to get to the boiler room,but also adequate fragmentation to cause sufficientt tissue damage. Bullets on both end of the spectrum will not work in all circumstances,but a middle of the road selection most generally will work in a large majority of the time as long as it is put where it is suppose to go.

Coyote_Hunter,

I was wrong. You're not a hard-headed horse's ass, just a self-important twit who really likes to pontificate on things he knows nothing about.

It's very interesting that you continually attempt to weasel out of things you've posted with longer and longer posts. Why don't you just fold it five ways and put it where the moon don't shine? It would save both you and and the rest of us a lot of trouble.

Dunno about both bullets not working... I've not lost an animal I fired an X at since I've used them. And they don't generally fragment at all. AND I"m not a bone shooter either.... ribcage is my choice unless its teh noggin. Unless my X is a middle of the road projectile which I kinda think of it as.. its not a mono solid forever penetration and its not a fragile HP.

As to folks not making a box of bullets last... I dunno, but the only times I've shot more than once in the last 15 or 20 years have been too long of a noggin shot attempt twice..(followed by a thump in the lungs at the same distance at some 350 ish yards, and last year when I borrowed my buddies rifle(dumb... but wanted to test his bullets for him... and I had shot it earlier in the year...) and find the rifle was off... missed one noggin shot.. connected a neck shot aiming at the noggin.

Of course you may have hit instant reply like I do, instead of directing the post at me..... I"m a one shot type of guy... I just go prepared enough that if I desire to take the only shot offered, and that shot takes a bit of umph... I want that reserve.

My post was not directed at you Rost495. My point was that if either end of the spectrum and the bullet is put in the wrong place, you will probably not have DRT and could result in a long tracking job or lost animals. Generally a middle of the road bullet will work in most cases if put in the right place more often than not compared to bullets on both ends.

If a lot of hunters would learn to become better hunters,instead of relying on higher and higher technolgy, these super premium bullets. and ultra powered rifles,they would probaly go home with less unfilled tags

That's some bullchit right there. Coyote hunter put forth some well thought out posts on this thread. Perhaps Mule Deer thinks he should be the only one allowed to post anymore? WTF?

Calvin,

It turns out in Coyote Hunter's vast experience he has never shot a deer with anything less than a super-bullet, because he KNOWS anything less might not penetrate the vitals of a deer. His posts on this thread have been long batches of armchair theory based on exactly zero experience with "deer" bullets.

We found this out after I asked him to describe the bullet failures that brought him to his conclusions. CH then suggested that maybe I don't care about wounding game animals because I hunt so much that losing one or two here and there wouldn't make any difference to me.

If those are "well thought out posts" then you and I have different standards.

Big time funky thought process if you ask me...

Dober

It's times like these when I really miss Dogzapper and his pics/reports of him killing deer, elk, bear, moose, African game with Ballistic Tips and Hornady Interlocks. I think he even mumbled something about shot placement, or some such thing (grin).

I myself have only killed deer as far as big game goes. The fanciest bullets used were BTs and SSTs. One thing I've found on the BTs (165/30-06/2700fps/handload) is that they really weren't explosive. I've killed six or seven deer with 139gr SSTs out of a 280 (3K fps mv/handload) and while there definitely was some damage, deer went down quick! Last deer I shot with the 280 load was about 80 yards on a large WT doe as it was walking left to right. I hit the tricep area (if that makes sense) and it went through the bone on the opposite shoulder (the front one in case certain folks wonder). Deer went 10-12 feet and dropped. Exit hole was rather small, and I guess that most of the bullet went all to [bleep] and what was left of the base exited. I've seen the exact same thing on deer shot with a 243/85gr Sierra HPBT. Everything between entry and exit was turned to blackberry jelly but the exit wound wasn't really that big, not a whole lot bigger than entry. I can only guess that a good deal of fragmentation took place as I wasn't inside the deer to watch the bullet do what it does. Long story somewhat shorter, deer shot with those combos went down really fast. Currently I run Hornady Interlocks and Remington Core-Lokts in 243, 280, 30-06, and 30-30 as the balance of cost, accuracy, performance just works for me....on deer.

No reason to mock his experience, as he already conceded that you have much more experience than him. But, he does have experience what what he uses, and he is satisfied with it.

Coyote Hunter did a good job of giving the reasons why he is more comfortable using more expensive bullets. If it gives him more confidence to use a premium bullet on deer, (he ain't the only one)then what is the big deal?

Surely you will concede that a NBT can zook on deer, and Coyote has a reason to want to use a premium bullet? I've seen it with my own eyes..

Unless some editing took place, I see no reason to bash Coyote Hunter.

I kinda miss bashing JeffO...

You should see the mess I've been making with that 7saum you sold me...(grin) After a few deer with the "frags" this last week, I'm going back to X's.

Hush bite your tongue....A town without a fool is a much better town

I can only imagine the carnage without them...
How's that Jewell trigger holding up to that Alaskan weather?

So far it's been great. I don't take it out on the boat though.

Calvin,

Let me say I have no problem with Coyote Hunter shooting premium bullets at everything, if thats the way he likes to roll, fine. I've killed a few deer with premiums as well, I've also killed about a hundred animals with cup and cores.

What I think is silly is for him to come on here and make matter-a-fact statements about a bullet design as he did above about which he has NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH!

If thats not arm-chair theorizing at it's best, I don't know what is.

I mean really, he's arguing about something he has NO experience with. Give me a break!

Bill

Mule Deer �

Once again you have it wrong. Grand Slam bullets aren�t exactly �super bullets� but I was loading them for elk before I took my first deer and I simply used the same loads. After that I never went back to standard cup-and-cores in my bolt guns, although I use them in the levers. For twenty years I was a one-bolt-gun hunter and saw no need for separate deer and elk loads � in fact I thought separate loads would be far more trouble than they were worth, a concept I still agree with today.

That said, my experience with �deer� bullets is hardly �zero� as you claim. In the last 28 years I�ve seen a lot of deer and elk taken, many and probably most with standard cup-and-core aka �deer� bullets. Last year alone I saw a nice bull, cow and buck deer, all taken with a .25-06 and 117g bullets by a 12-year-old young lady. I didn�t inquire as to the bullet type, but I�m not aware of anything but cup-and-core bullets in that caliber and weight. Contrary to your claim, what I �KNOW� is that cup-and-core bullets can � and usually do - work just fine.

I�ve also seen shallow wounds, blown up shoulders and animals lost when such bullets were used. Not often, but often enough. Admittedly, smaller calibers and high velocities were usually involved.

If that is �zero� experience with �deer� bullets then your definition of �zero� is much different than mine.

You wrongly claim I never recommend cup-and-core bullets when in fact I often have � although with the caveat that I also recommend heavier weights and lower velocities than with the bullets I use.

I did not suggest you don�t care about wounding animals, although you choose to take it that way. You are wrong, but I can�t help that. I apologized for a poor choice of wording but you apparently refuse to accept the apology. Well, OK, your choice.


You seem to take it as a person affront that I choose a different path than you. Bullet cost is NOT an issue I�m particularly concerned about, and I choose the bullets I use based on their performance. As a rule I don�t build separate �elk� and �deer� loads and see no need to do so. Instead, I build �elk� loads that so far have also worked VERY well for deer and antelope and, based on their performance, I have absolutely no problem recommending them to others for such use. People are free to accept my recommendation or not, as they choose. I fail to see a problem with that.

tx270 �

In grade school we learn to read, then we read to learn. In so doing we learn from the experience of others and greatly accelerate our learning without having to �personally experience� everything.

There is a significant difference between not having shot game with a bolt gun and cup-and-core bullets (something I�ve done with my lever guns, by the way) and having �NO experience� with such bullets. In the last 28 years I�ve seen quite a few animals that were successfully harvested using run of the mill cup-and core bullets. I know very well that they usually work just fine, I just choose not to use them. The bullets I do use work well on elk, which have always been priority 1, and I use those loads on everything. That keeps things simpler in the reloading room and has also proven to work out well in the field.

Heavy thread for a Sat night...well, not armchair engineering here, but experience based on what I have read and work with, one does need to match the projectile to the game. Found that antelope fall better to standard cup and core, deer usually will, but I do feel better with some type of bonded bullet and elk just really go down when hit with partitions and surprisingly with accubonds too.

Favor Hornady offerings but do get into Nosler... and I have never gotten a Barnes to work for me and when I tried, it took forever to get the copper out of barrel. YMMV

What is interesting is that even now with the extensive bonded lines out there, they have to be compared to partitions which are how old a design now?

have we killed the deer yet? I find all of them die when you put a hole thru the right place, what you use is less relevant. Anyway each deer is different some run and some don't.

Calvin,

Yes, Coyote Hunter did edit a couple of his early posts on this thread, a day or so afterward. Some of the things he originally stated (and I challenged him on) are no longer there.

Here's the original question that started this thread:

"I am a hunting rookie. I have about 15 kills on hogs and deer. With bullets I went from one end of the spectrum to the other. Most of the stuff I have shot has been with high frag bullets like the Sierra Matchking and the Hornady V-max. My last two kills were TSX bullets. My question for some of you with more experience is, does one type of bullet appear to down whitetail deer faster? Penetrators or Frags? No difference?"

Please note: "My question for some of you with more experience...." How does Coyote Hunter's experience enlighten us on this subject?

He has told us several time that he uses premium bullets for his deer hunting because he's primarily hunting elk. What does that have to do with hunting eastern whitetails? And what does it have to do with how fast various bullets kill deer?

He does tell us that some of his deer have gone down quickly when shot with premium bullets. Gee, imagine that--but he has never shot a deer with a non-premium bullet (as he plainly stated in one post) so has no basis for comparison. He can't answer the original poster's question, so natters on about "potential" bullet failures.

When pressed for examples of such failures, for a while ignored the requests. Finally, in one of his latest posts, he claims that he has witnessed such failures, but again we get no specifics. He mentions watching somebody shoot some animals with 117-grain .25's, but has no idea of the make.

He insults me--and then takes it back in the same sentence.
I didn't start "bashing" him until that point.

John

PS--As a matter of fact I haven't seen a Ballistic Tip "zook" on a deer or pronghorn--or even larger game. I do know of some that did, but all were early bullets made in the 1980's. Once Nosler ironed out those problems, by around 1990, I started using BT's on big game fairly frequently, mostly on deer and pronghorn, though I've also taken some game in the 500-pound range.

I've shot several animals in the big shoulder joint with Ballistic Tips of various sizes, and in each instance the bullet broke the shoulder and penetrated into the vitals. On one gemsbok in Namibia the bullet ended up under the hide on the rump. Generally I am happy with that sort of zooking.

I guess some folks like CH are legends in their own mind...

This thread has come to be a

Nice post cmq

Folks sure do worry too much about this chit! Cant believe the hours spent "thinking" [bleep] up that may happen, instead of just doing it!

But what do I know, one day I could be hunting deer with a V-max, and the next an MRX, and think nothing of the "what ifs" that fill these pages.

JB, I've had pronghorn do a death run for ~200 yards after taking a C&C bullet to the lungs, that scenario isnt preserved for mono's!

Mule Deer �

I sincerely hope your statement above is an honest mistake because your claims that you challenged me and I removed things are easily shown to be COMPLETELY FALSE based on the post and edit times.

The only thing you got right was I did edit two posts.

Here is the sequence of posting events, which anyone is free to check:

My post # 4287103 :
Yesterday @ 12:44 AM � my original post time
Yesterday @ 07:29 AM � my last edit
Yesterday @ 11:36 AM � your next post, # 4287057, over 4 hours later


My post # 4289678 :
Yesterday @ 11:10 PM � my original post time
Yesterday @ 11:29 PM � my last edit
Today @ 8:49AM � your next post, # 4290238, over 9 hours later

The simple fact is that I ___DID NOT___ remove anything in response to a challenge from you. My edits were completed over 4 and 9 hours, respectively, BEFORE your next posts.

One thing I did do was change my signature to include quotes of your statements about me being a �horse�s ass�, and �self-important twit�. Those changes would have shown up if you refreshed the page. The signature changes only included the quotes for perhaps an hour last night, between about midnight and 1AM Mountain time, after which I removed them. In any case, you made no posts during the time those quotes were in my signature.



If knowing that premium bullets can drop deer quickly is of no value, then you can argue my post had no value as I did not discuss �Frags�. At least I was 100% on target for half the question, with appropriate information regarding my experience with �Penetrators� and the reason I choose them.

By your logic, if addressing half the question eliminates any possible value, your own response to my post lacked any value as you addressed only the �Frags� half of the question and two of your three paragraphs were completely off topic.



Actually, the true statement is I�ve never shot deer with a standard cup-and-core bullet with a bolt gun. That fact is completely irrelevant to my experience with premium bullets.

No, I didn�t inquire about the make of the 117g bullet. It was a cup-and-core unless you know of a premium 117g .257� bullet. I don�t. I was pretty impressed that a 12-year-old girl could do so well on her first hunt and I�ve mentioned her success in other posts. She and her dad were from Michigan, IIRC. They were hunting with Brandon and Tim Barnes, aka B & T Outfitters near Craig. Brandon or Tim might know what bullet was used. If you�re really that interested I can give you a phone number to call.



I had already stated �I agree, however, an expensive bullet does not necessarily mean the design works as desired� when you wrote this:


You may not consider that a slam but I do, particularly given the general tone of your responses to my previous posts.

Contrary to your implication in this and subsequent posts, at no time did I suggest� cost is the absolute criteria of any bullet�. Quite the opposite, in fact. That is an intentional and ongoing misrepresentation on your part.



You may not have ever had a problem with BT�s but others have and you admit to having seen bullets disintegrate �to the point where they didn't penetrate the vitals of the big game animal in question. A couple of these were on deer...�. In fact, I don�t think you need to go any further than right here at the �Fire to find photo examples of excessive meat loss using BT�s.

So far your only real argument against the bullets I use (and I�m not the only one or North Fork, Barnes and Swift would be out of business) is that they are too expensive. On one hand you correctly argue cost should not determine bullet selection, with which I agree. Then you argue for BT�s and other cup-and-core bullets based largely on ... lower cost. There�s some logic.

In the examples I provided, 2 antelope, 3 deer and 2 elk went straight down using TTSX, MRX and North Fork bullets. A 3rd antelope made it about 20 yards after being hit with a 100g TTSX. That�s not a huge sampling, but cup-and-cores couldn�t have done much better unless the game started dropping before the shot.

If I was Tennessee I would find that kind of information about �Penetrators� useful, even if it didn�t provide examples about �Frags�.

Good Lord, give it up already. The thread died Sunday morning.

You getting paid by the word here?

Colo Wolf -

I'll be happy to do so as soon as JB stops intentionally mischaracterizing the reason I use premiums and __OUTRIGHT LYING__ about my removing things from my posts after being challenged by him.

The original poster wanted to know �� does one type of bullet appear to down whitetail deer faster? Penetrators or Frags?�. My response included results for the last 8 animals the people I hunt with and myself have taken. With the exception of the antelope taken by my son-in-law, all were taken by me �personally� and all 8 were taken with �Penetrators�. One antelope (mine) went about 20 yards, the remaining seven animals went straight down. One deer was dropped instantly with ham-to-sternum penetration with a fast 7mm/140g North Fork. I don�t know how a fragmenting bullet would have performed on that particular shot � no one does � but I was not surprised by the performance of the North Fork.

For my response, a bunch of people have jumped on my case because I don�t have a ton of �personal experience� shooting game with cup-and-core bullets � as if that had anything whatsoever to do with the performance, good and bad, I�ve experienced with various premium bullets over the years or in any way affected the results I described in my post.

While I have cheerfully admitted fragmenting bullets can be very effective, many folks here have seen poor penetration and excessive meat loss when using them, too, including JB by his own admission. With the last 8 animals with which I have �personal� experience, no matter how effective cup-and-cores can be they could not have put the animals on the ground much faster unless the animals started dropping BEFORE the shot.

When I hunt deer during elk season, I load my rifles for elk. The same loads I use for elk have proven very effective for deer and antelope and I have no problem recommending them as a result. If I take a lot of grief for doing so, then so be it.

Dude - stop digging.

Expat

So you would just allow JB to lie about you removing data from your posts after he challenged you on something without attempting to set the record straight?

Even if, as happened here:

1. He didn't make any such challenge.
2. Nothing was removed (instead something was added).


Aren't you a little bit curious as to what the hell he was talking about when he made such an obviously false claim, as proven by the post and edit times?

Instead of coming after me, why don�t you ask JB to explain what he challenged that was supposedly removed? Or does he get a free pass?

Ingwe

I think saying that cup & core bullets don't work on deer is about the same as saying premiums can't kill a deer quickly.

Hit them right with either and they will stay parked.

Dude, as the bard says "thou protest to strongly" or something to that effect. In my years on this forum not once have I seen anything from Barnes that would even hint that he lied about something.

Coincidence that John Moses magically appeared after I posted that pic...?


I think not......

Ingwe

There is a striking resemblance.

Everybody know that's Tom264.

I agree with John...many moons ago in my younger days that's all their was..cup/core bullets have probably accounted for more game than any other to date. Were there some not so good ones around...you betcha..but overall they seemed to work just fine!!

Times have changed and so has bullet technology...to the better I must say...so that's why I never question a shooters choice unless to gain more info......FLEM

jimmyp �

Don�t take my word for it, CHECK IT FOR YOURSELF � it will take about a minute of your time. If you want to know the TRUTH, you will do so.

All you have to do is check the original post times and edit times for the two posts I edited and the post times of Mule Deer�s posts. If he did not post between my original post time and my last edit time (and he did not) � his claim is factually impossible.

All the information you need to find out who is telling the truth was provided above, but here it is again:

My post # 4287103 :
7/31/2010 @ 12:44 AM� my original post time
7/31/2010 @ 07:29 AM � my last edit
7/31/2010 @ 11:36 AM � Mule Deer�s next post, # 4287057, over 4 hours later


My post # 4289678 :
7/31/2010 @ 11:10 PM � my original post time
7/31/2010 @ 11:29 PM � my last edit
8/1/2010 @ 8:49AM � Mule Deer�s next post, # 4290238, over 9 hours later


Once again, here is Mule Deer�s claim:



Again, don�t take my word for it � FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.

1. Ask Mule Deer where his missing posts are in which he made those challenges.
2. Ask Mule Deer what information was removed from my posts in response to those challenges.

If Mule Deer is telling the truth, the answers should be forthcoming and made public by Mule Deer. Silence tells another story.

Keep it up, I think your winning!!

nothing quite so ridiculous as a one man pi--ing contest

Well, I was enjoying the earlier part of this thread !

Paul.

Maybe you just lay down for bullies and liars - I don't.


Mule Deer's continued silence speaks volumes. He lied.

And on, and on,and on,and on---------------------.I don't think anyone gives a chit

Mule Deer is no bully. Quite the opposite.

Someone that goes to such obsessive lengths to "prove" they are "right", falls into the same same category of bullies, liars and other blowhards.

But ok, I will bite and play..... keeping in the SAAMI ratings, with the proper velocity and trajectory I can push 6.5 feet. How healthy is your prostate? Don't bother answering, the line is shut down now as it doesn't matter.

Yep, I too, like JB just fine.

Paul.

Coyote Hunter. I thought that you made some good points, more then held your own and proved your point about the edits. Time to let it rest though.

Nothing wrong with my prostate � it came out a couple months ago. Glad yours is healthy now, but time will take care of that.

How about something more fun and interesting than a peeing contest? Let�s go shoot clay pigeons at 600 yards, $100 to the winner.

I'd be willing to shoot at them.

You don't want Ingwe to show up though, he will get all your money.

Years of shooting incredibly small deer have made him a crack shot.

That there is down right funny JM !!

Sure, but you have to dress and cook them. Like mine med rare with pearl onions and mushrooms.

On deer you can have both. Shoot a decent-weight-for-caliber Accubond and get penetration AND fragmentation!

By the way... your question ties directly into something I called "way overpenetrating". This generated some real amusement around here. In essence, most deer are relatively small and fragile animals. Something like, oh let's just pick something at random here.... say, the TSX is putting too much of it's efforts into heating up the ground behind the deer for my tastes- considering that, as JB and others already said so well, it's not like modern hunting bullets UNDERPENETRATE on deer. And a quicker kill- which many luminaries, to include JB and JJHack, have reported with bullets that frag some- ain't not a good thing.

Until I see a problem, personally a mid-premie like the NAB or NPT is about all the harder I want a deer bullet to be. Heck, they've worked great on elk for me too so.....

Wacky thread. Two people I consider to be bastions of reasonable discourse around here kinda got under each other's skin and got nas-tay. Hope it got patched up.

I was hoping this was dead and buried.