Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Penetration vs. Frag

keith,

Thanks!

The odd thing about all this is that there are millions of deer hunters who hunt successfully every year and have NEVER heard of the concept of using the most expensive ammunition in the store, when all they've ever used are factory-load Core-Lokts and Power-Points. It's only among real rifle loonies that $1 bullets have become necessary for shooting 200-pound animals.

What we need for deer is penefragtion.

I've put a couple of non-handloaders at the camp on to Fusions and they've worked really well without costing too much either.

Yeah Mathman,

We started using them last year in my wife's .243. She shot a big doe & a 2.5 year old buck, both broadside, double lung, under 100yrds. I was so happy with their performance, I've already bought their 165's for my .308 this year.

Paul.

It's a damn wonder anybody can kill anything these days.

How in the world did we make it all those eons without the CF Rifle......

Fusions are very good deer bullets, and the Speer Deep Curls should be as well, since they're basically the same thing. I've also had very good results from the Core-Lokt Ultra, though not necessarily any better than from the regular Core-Lokt--or the Power-Point.

One of the most spectacular deer kills I've made was with a 180 Power-Point from a .30-40 Krag. I was hunting in timber and shot a muley doe through the lungs, and she took off on a literally dead run, because within 20-30 feet she ran head-on into a big tree trunk, breaking her neck. I was only 55 yards away and could hear it crack!

Cheers Mule Deer,

That's the kinda story this 'fire needs !

Paul.

Shooting a mountain goat if things go well and have decided to run a 140 berger for the first time ever. Hoping for drt and no rolling and cascading down rock slopes. Have some more tags and plan on using them all fall to see how they do.

Was that a 1895 or a Krag?

It was a Winchester High Wall reproduction by Shiloh Sharps, a really nice rifle with a 26" octagonal barrel and Axtell tang sight. Like a big dummy I sold it a couple years later. It would shoot Power Points into an inch or so.

Then again, it probably helped pay for some hunt somewhere, which is OK. A friend of a friend owns the rifle now, so maybe I can buy it back someday.

I think I remember seeing a 30-40 or a 38-55 in a Shiloh at Bob Wards in Bozeman this year. To be honest I can't remember if it was a High Wall or a 1874. It was nice, but I am a college student, so even if the stars aligned it wouldn't have walked home with me.

I like 1895s in 30-40s. My grandma has an old one that has been in the family for a long time, one of the shorter carbines. It is pretty beat up and has a bolt through the wrist, holding it together. There is a nice picture of a distant relative and a small black bear up on the mountain near the family ranch. That picture was taken in the mid-30s, and it even had the bolt in the stock then.

There is something about an 1895 in .30-40 that appeals to me too, and I probably will end up with one someday.

I have also owned a couple of Krags, a rifle and a carbine. Both shot very well, but eventually somebody else wanted them more than I did.

My present .30-40 is an O/U double rifle, built on a Ruger Red Label shotgun, that I got from a friend. Some unknown gunsmith made it (my friend bought it used at a gun show) and has the 20-gauge barrels as well. It shoots pretty well, and is a nifty little rifle. I haven't taken any game with it yet, but should!

I've shot one of the Browning reproduction 1895's in 30-40 Krag and it was a hoot. We were shooting 220gr Hornady RN's at about 1850fps; they made a heck of a thump when they hit the backstop.

They make a pretty good thump when they hit game as well!

That's what I thought, always wondered how the 240gr Woodleigh would work in the 30-40 Krag, at a sedate 1750-1800fps in a strong action.

Mule Deer �

I think we agree far more than we disagree.

If a bullet doesn�t provide ***reliable*** expansion I don�t consider it a �super bullet� no matter what it costs � which seems to be in agreement with what you are saying. As an example, I expected Barnes XLC�s to be good bullets until I tried them on live game. An unfortunate antelope required a finisher that hit the heart some 20 minutes or so after taking two 7mm RM/160g XLC�s through the lungs. The rest of those XLC�s got used for target practice. Although there is a correlation between bullet cost and design, for both manufacturing cost and marketing reasons, the correlation is imperfect at best and exotic designs are no guarantee of reliable performance. It would seem we agree on that point.

It would also seem we both value quick kills. You claim a fragmenting or partially fragmenting bullet can result in quicker kills and I agree they can be very effective. We agree that placement is 90% of the solution and that the need for deep penetration is relatively rare. I believe we even agree that bullet design can make a difference in terminal performance.

It is probable that I could hunt the rest of my life with factory loaded 180g Power Points/Core-Lokt/InterLock/Ballistic Tips in my .30-06�s and never lose an animal due to bullet design or performance. I think you would agree with that, too, particularly since I never shoot more than 3 or 4 animals in a year and usually less.

So if deep penetration is rarely required and 180g cup-and-core bullets and a .30-06 would work, why do I shoot premiums? Because �rarely� is not the same as �never�, I don�t always hunt with a .30-06 (didn�t have one until 2006 and prefer 165/168g bullets in them anyway), I�ve seen wounds where cup-and-core bullets didn�t provide the penetration I want (my first elk, taken with a 7mm RM/162g InterLock was one) and the Grand Slam/North Fork/TTSX/MRX/Trophy Bonded bullets have worked very well for my hunting partners and myself. While cup-and-core bullets may provide more dramatic and somewhat quicker kills, the bullets we use have provided a high percentage of antelope, deer and elk dropping straight down - and none have gone very far.

Your personal comment about �some bullets that would be way to cheap for you to consider, including the Hornady Interlock� is as uncalled for as would be my suggesting that because you kill so many animals you might not care if one gets away (which I don�t believe to be the case, by the way). My bullet choice is based on personal experience with their performance, not cost. My one experience with a 7mm RM and a 162g InterLock was not what I expected and I haven�t used them in my bolt guns since. I do, however, load them for my leverguns in .30-30, .375 Win, .44 Mag and .45-70.

If you search through my posts you�ll find I consistently suggest matching the bullet and velocity to the application. I�d be reasonably comfortable taking a THS on deer with a 180g .30 caliber Ballistic Tip but would have strong reservations if using a .243 Win/80g BT, particularly at close range. Although I�ve had end-to-end penetration with a couple different animals (I try very hard for broadside or at least quartering shots), only one was from the �wrong� end � and no bullet could have dropped that animal faster than the 7mm/140g North Fork I was using.

Because I tend to hunt elk and deer in the same season, my loads are chosen accordingly. The TTSX/MRX/North Fork/Trophy Bonded have worked just fine on the deer and even antelope and I have no problem recommending them as a result � the deep penetration capability they provide may never be needed, or only rarely so, or it might be needed the next trip out. I�d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Great post Coyote Hunter! I have reloaded the new Deep Curls in my 30-06, 180grn with H-4350 close to book max. They are very accurate, in fact as accurate as barnes TSX which I have found to be the best for accurscy in a few rifles. I can't say how they will work on Whitetails but 180 grn lead bullets have been good in the past. The bonded bullet will help if I have to take a shoulder. I do know though that I had a very special feeling driving home from the range when I had the target sitting on the passenger seat. One elongated hole .30 center to center @ 100yds. I used a COL of 3.30 in my Tikka T3. This is .50 thousands off the lans in my rifle. The cartridge is also crimped with a Lee crimp die. The finished cartridge looks pretty cool all bright shinny and just a bit bigger looking than your normal factory ammo. I have to see how they hunt, I think I have a good idea they will hunt just fine. I know how they shoot and that is excellant. Also is rewarding to be able to buy a 100 ct. box like the old days when I was a young pup. Buckfever1

First let me thank everyone for all the info.
It's great comparing notes......even when we might view things differently.
It feeds food to digest to the old noodle!

The info above is "right up my alley" in thought process.

Being in Indiana, and even though some bigger bore rounds are legal...they just dont hold any interest for me personally.

Out of any of the maggies or 30 cals (and above) over the 308 just have SO MUCH more input into the critter via bullet diameter/bullet weight (normally used anyway) and more than enough energy from the combination to knock the slobbers out of any deer that walks our great hunting lands.

Thats NOT to say all bullets are GOOD for the bigger calibers but it's just my opinion that for normal ranges, normal shots taken the bigger bores just leave less room for "issues" unless someone chooses to hunt with a bullet NOT meant for big game.

An example: With the long time successfully used 30-06, not a "wonder round" compared to so many that have came out since, hunting what most considered "normal ranges".....I just wouldnt worry a great deal about if I was using premium bullets or not....but again thats just me.

Now switch that scenario out to LONG range (regardless of the cartridge used......there DOES EXSIST a "maximum usage range" for the bullet/velocity combo) and the rules change......to me. Not all are going to agree, obviously and that is not in any way a bad thing.

There is no "magic bullet" for all ranges, aka, all velocities at impact....EVEN IF you only take broadside ribcage shots.

Finding a balance we can live with with our chosen bullet choice with the characteristics of NOT blowing the smithereens out of them at CLOSE range yet DOES both penetrate AND open up (either "enough" or radically) at LONG range.....well, lets just say......good luck!

What is "long range" for my 6BR isnt even in any way for my 6.5x284 for deer hunting.

I guess my point is repeating some things most of you are saying and agree with. Sorry about that but feel its worth restating.

The velocity at impact matched to the bullet performance at that impact velocity.>>>TO ME........is the key factor when considering "smaller" diameter rounds. It is for larger too but just feel it's "less an issue". When the remaining energy is pushing the envelope it's just that I feel even more concentration is needed on the bullet's performance. Where that line is drawn is a personal choice but the larger the frontal area of a bullet (larger diameter) the MORE "resistance" will "push back" and does indeed effect bullet performance.

Like all of it, bullet choice, cartridge choice, weapon, range you will shoot one.......are all subjective to your own confidence in YOUR setup and what you have seen as results from it (or others using it)and I doubt a single one of us dont "experiment" with other choices at times.....learning all along the way.

Regardless of the bullet type or design, weight or BC......there EXISTS a velocity range that it will "do what it's supposed to" and will work just fine and dandy.

It's all a simple (ha ha) matter of combining our situation and choices of bullet to one suiting our beliefs NORMALLY gained from either personal experiences or some seen.

It's habitual for us to all "think differently" and every bit as habitual for us to sometimes "change our minds" or simply try out something knew.

All part of the fun and games!!!

CONFIDENCE KILLS......feel confident in your shooting ability with your choices and feel confident in the bullet's performace for ranges used and the result will habitually be DEAD deer.......everywhere from bullet designs from 50 years back to the newest, state of the art, premium bullet.

Bottom line is if we were only allowed one bullet type.....Id find out where it works FOR ME, and use it. Even though we are not so limited, fantastic results are reached with about any of the bullets, within a caliber/bullet weight/velocity/range combo, that provides results where we couldn't ask from much more.

Take your pick guys........they all "work" if intended for hunting, at some range or another, for your choice in bullet placement, range you shoot, and caliber chosen.

The same type of discussion goes on annually in the archery hunting circles on "two blade solid broadheads vs mechanical expanding ones".

Pick your poison. Put where it belongs at ranges it's meant to be used at and .........TAA DAA!

SUCCESS!

My own personal decision to "test" the Partitions vs VLD hunters at differing ranges, out of both calibers, is one more way I get to enjoy our sport, make memories and have fun! They both will "work" if I do my part.

God Bless!

Coyote_Hunter,

Gee, thanks for backing off from this statement directed at me:

"Your personal comment about �some bullets that would be way to cheap for you to consider, including the Hornady Interlock� is as uncalled for as would be my suggesting that because you kill so many animals you might not care if one gets away."

Given all your previous insisting that ONLY premium (and the more expensive the better) bullets are suitable for the hunting you do, I believe my comment about cheap bullets is completely justified.

But your crack about me not caring about losing an animal here and there is completely unjustifiable--even though you weaseled out of it.

You also keep insisting on bring up instances of bullet performance on elk when (ONCE AGAIN) this thread is about whitetail deer. Believe me, we understand why you use premium bullets where you might run into both elk and deer, because you have stated that over and over again.

BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. And we have yet to hear an instance from you about a bullet that failed to penetrate the vitals of a deer.

After this last post of yours I have come to the conclusion that you are a hard-headed horse's ass. I don't lose my temper very often on the Campfire, but you made it happen.

bullet placement trumps bullet construction all else equal

Mule Deer �

First, I have never insisted that �ONLY premium (and the more expensive the better) bullets are suitable� for the hunting I do. Do I have a strong preference for certain bullets? Yes � including North Fork, Barnes TTSX and MRX, and Speer Trophy Bonded, all of which have performed very well for myself and those I hunt with, even on deer and antelope. Although I no longer use them, Grand Slams were my choice for 20 years. Are these bullets more expensive than cup-and-core bullets? Yes. Do I care? No. Do I chose them because they are more expensive? No, rather in spite of it. Do I use them exclusively? No. (But mostly.)

When I have recommended cup-and-core bullets I have also suggested going heavier than I would with the bullets listed above and/or keeping the maximum impact velocities lower. This year, unless I get my butt in gear and get the throat reamed so it can take my handloads, I�ll likely be doing exactly that with my latest .30-06 acquisition. I�ve been shooting Winchester 180g PowerPoint ammunition through it and doubt I�ll change.

I challenge you to show any instance where I remotely suggested that �the more expensive the better� when it comes to bullets. Although there is an imperfect correlation where cup-and-core bullets are generally less expensive than �premium� bullets, performance is not determined by cost. I�d rather shoot cup-and-core bullets than try XLC�s again. Disappointing results with the XLC�s and reports and photos of unexpanded TSX kept me from ever trying TSX in the field, although they shot great in every rifle I tried them in. It wasn�t until the poly-tipped TTSX came out that I tried Barnes bullets again. Very satisfactory results with the 168g TTSX on antelope finally prompted me to try the 180g MRX I had loaded some time before the TTSX were available but had been reluctant to try on game. The MRX worked great on deer when I couldn�t find any elk. If �more expensive� determined performance, I guess the MRX should be about twice as good as the TTSX? Nah...

The reason I don�t talk about bullets failing to penetrate to a deer�s vitals is I�ve never had such a failure. I�ve never shot one with a standard cup-and-core bullet, either - just Grand Slams, North Fork, and two last fall with my .300 WM and 180g MRX. My hunting buddy for the last 12 or 13 years has a similar �problem� (no failures), but to my knowledge he�s only used Trophy Bonded on his deer. Between us we�ve recovered exactly one bullet from deer, a 140g North Fork, and it went the distance lengthwise, stopped by the sternum.

I bring up bullet performance on elk because a) that is where most of my meager experience is, and b) because a bullet that expands reliably and penetrates broadside on elk, with exit or not, is likely good enough for a long angle on deer or antelope. That, at least, has been my experience. When the deer start running off I will gladly change my recommendations.

The original poster appears to be from Tennessee based on his name. The last I knew there were over 1,000,000 acres of bean fields in Tennessee and a fellow hunting those fields might want something that shoots a little faster/flatter than a .30-06 with a 180g bullet. The poster also mentions hunting hogs so it is ***not*** �strictly about bullets for whitetails� as you claimed in a previous post. We don�t know what cartridge(s) the poster uses but the fact that the poster mentions using V-MAX suggests to me something smaller than a .27 caliber. (Yes, I know that Hornady makes V-MAX in .277� and .308� diameters.) My guess would be something from .22 to .25 caliber, which puts us in the land of fast and light, an area where I really prefer something besides cup-and-core bullets. Finally, because the poster used TSX bullets for his last two kills and didn�t mention cost as an issue, it is a fair assumption that cost is not the primary concern.

In my original post in this thread I talked about the following:
Antelope with a .257 Roberts/100g TTSX (20 yards)
2x deer with a .300 Win Mag/180g MRX (both straight down)
Antelope with a .30-06/168g TTSX ( a few feet at most)
Antelope with a .308 Win/168g TTSX (straight down)
Deer with a 7mm Rem Mag/140g North Fork (straight down)
2x elk with a .30-06/165g North Fork (both straight down)

Your response was to jump on my case for mentioning the elk, saying they are irrelevant. That is, at best, debatable. Frankly, I think a .30-06 with 165g North Fork bullets is a pretty fine combination for deer.

You then got on my case for suggesting bullets that cost �$1 or $1.50� when in fact the TTSX I mentioned and the TSX the original poster ***is already using*** cost virtually the same amount, about $0.60 each. The 180g MRX are more, about $1.30 each, but I suspect a 60 cent 150g or 168g TTSX would work just as effectively on deer. In fact, I would recommend them � I used the 180g MRX only because I was hunting elk and the .300WM with 180g MRX is what I had in my hands. (The MRX worked just fine on both deer, though, with a stem-to-stern pass-through on one.) The North Fork bullets cost about $1.50 but I really don�t care � they work very, very well, provide outstanding accuracy and don�t ruin a bunch of meat like fragmenting bullets often do. Wish I could get them in .257� for my Roberts...

I am not �absolutely convinced� that premium bullets are needed for deer or antelope, even on bad angles, but I definitely don�t like fast and light cup-and-core bullets for such shots. Nor do I necessarily want to go heavier or slower. The premium bullets I use add a buck or two to the cost of a hunting trip that costs several hundred dollars at best and often much more. In return I get the peace of mind that comes with very consistent bullet performance, regardless of range or animal size or angle, which is worth considerably more to me than the additional bullet cost. They have worked well or I wouldn�t continue to use and recommend them. And yes, the most expensive ones, the North Forks, are still my favorites - in spite of their cost, not because of it.


Finally, and most importantly, it was not my intention to suggest you don�t care if you lose an occasional animal. As I said in my post, I don�t believe that. I could have found a more appropriate comparison, or at least a better way to phrase it, and I apologize for not doing so.


The question for me is still not �What will work when things go right?� but rather �What bullet do I want in my rifle when things go south?�
Just call me a �hard-headed horse's ass�...