I was curious to hear the opinions of using 165 gr Barnes Triple Shock in a 308. I have a new rifle that shoots them better than any other bullet I've tried (i.e sierra BTSP, Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, Etc).

I guess my thoughts are that it may over penetrate and not deliver as much energy to the deer. Although, if I have got to track one, I would like to have an entrance/exit wound.

Thanks for the opinions.

it'll work just fine!

Killed two does last season with a much smaller TSX (100 grain in .257 RBTS). One shot at 55 yards +/- and the other shot in excess of 100 yards (don't exactly remember the actual yardage). Both dead (one right there, one ran 25 yards), both bullets exited the deer on the far side - didn't seem to make any difference in their deadness - like Paul said, "it'll work just fine!"

Ps Be careful how you talk about "over penetration" here - some folks are sensitive about the degree of "over penetration" that is allowable.

I'd be inclined to use the 130 for whitetail.

Its going to ridiculously over-penetrate on deer <grin> but if that floats your boat then rock on. You'd probably want to hit bone on the way in with that bullet to really get it working right, and keep you impact speed up there, too.

That's how I'd load a .308 for ELK, to put it in perspective.

You could mos' def' load a better bullet for deer than that in a .308; a 150 or 165-gn Accubond comes to mind, but there's probably 20 better bullets than the 165-TSX for that job.

Ducking for cover; the TSX Nazis just can't handle the TRUTH!

The 165 TSX will work just fine.

you really are an idiot!

Considering the liar has never shot a single critter with an X/TSX/TTSX, compelling really.


I'm thinking she should have spit.

i had thought he left.... guess that was wishful thinking??/

Lots of folks apparently go off to rehab in the summer.

but it normally fails....

My head hurts......


Ingwe

Head like that outta hurt

Here is more of his MAGIC math in motion




The above is ONE in 2008 season










So from June 2008 till April 2010 you've killed 6 more blacktails? Tough keeping up with the lies ain't is asswipe

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2273717/3




So he killed another 6, in 2 hunting seasons. Of course the very top quote says he only killed 1 in the 2008 Season





Now he says he's shot 2 each in the 2008 and 2009 season, and says 1 buck and 1 doe in the 2008 season. He also says he didn't hunt his doe tag in the 2008 season.


The lies never cease from JO, but who is really surprised.

I was really, really, hoping he was gone for good, but oh well, some people.

I've never shot a deer with a TSX, but I have a feeling they'll work fine in that combo, or any combo for that matter.

how can this be? JO is a campfire Kahuna!<grin> He has posted over 15300 times so he must be an expert! <grin> JO does not mind argumentative discussions as he always "wins" them! <grin> whats not to like about good old campfire kahuna jeffO!<grin> I put him up there in the same league with Kilimanjaro Bell, Pondoro Taylor, Jack O'Connor, Pauly Shore, Soupy Sales and Wrong way Golfarb <grin>

Must be Karamojo Bell's brother who hunted in Tanganyika a lot.

yeah, the retarded one that no one talks about....

Herschel-

First, I actually like the TSX for what it's designed for. Accurate as heck and it WILL poke a hole in something!

But to flesh it out a bit, since you asked, and it's hard to get a broad conversation about this subject here because anyone who won't worship at the altar of Barnes gets run over... here's my take.

You could load a .308 with bullets designed to do everything from blow a shallow crater in the side of a deer, to penetrate much, much deeper than, well, a deer is! And, of course, everything in between. Bullets that fragment early... bullets that fragment later... Bullets that the front part fragment but the back doesn't... etc etc.

In my humble and probably ignorant, useless opinion the TSX is about as far as you can tilt things towards the pure penetration end. This is by design. They are designed to NOT fragment. And, a 165-gn in a .308 is heavy enough that it's actually contrary to how Barnes says to best use their product! They say, drop down a weight or two and push them fast. So-you've got a bitchin' elk load there but even the manufacturer would say that's not the best TSX to load for deer...

Virtually ANY standard deer hunting bullet is going to penetrate adequately on a deer from a .308. Fusion. Corelokt. Interlock. Accubond. Ballistic Tip. Game King. Etc etc.

But what works best to put the animal down? The widely-held consensus, even among some notable members here who see tons of game killed and LOVE the TSX, is that a fragmenting bullet kills faster. This is supported by fairly recent research from Fackler, a noted wound ballistician, that JWP475 turned me onto. To sum him up, bullets that fragment some, make a far more damaging wound channel.

So [bleep], I dunno. This sure seems obvious to me. I'm not the saltiest pretzel in the bag and as you can see, saying anything negative about any TSX anytime anywhere gets a guy mobbed here. But even I, in my meager hunting career, have tried a half-dozen bullets in a half-dozen cartridges and, IMHO, penetration simply isn't a problem. And it sure as chit isn't worth giving up quicker kills to me to solve a problem I'm not having! If an Accubond will go the length of a deer.... AND fragment some.... well, you see where I'm going with that.

blah, blah, blah

Rumor is he had a mangina infection that took some serious treatment

To answer the original poster�s question...

The TSX bullets have been very accurate in every rifle I�ve tried them in, including the 168�s in a .308 Win, .30-06 and .300 WM. My experience with a 7mm RM, 160g XLC�s and an unfortunate buck antelope, however, kept me from using the TSX loads I�d worked up on big game � The XLC�s didn�t appear to expand and I simply wasn�t convinced the TSX would work any better. When Barnes introduced the MRX bullets I worked up 180g loads for my .300WM. Later, when the TTSX�s appeared, I worked up 168g TTSX loads for my .30 Win and .30-06s, 120g and 140g TTSX loads for my 7mm RM and 110g TTSX loads for my .257 Roberts. All were as accurate as the original TSX bullets had been.

My son-in-law has taken one antelope with a .30-06/168g TTSX and I�ve taken two � one with a .308 Win/168g TTSX and one with a .257 Roberts/100g TTSX. I�ve also taken two deer with a .300WM/180g MRX. So far no TTSX or MRX bullets have been recovered and there has been minimal meat loss. One antelope went about 20 yards, the other four animals have gone straight down. Not a big sample but pleasing results nonetheless.

In a nutshell, I won�t use the TSX but am quite happy with the MRX and TTSX.

I think you're an azzhole. But I bet Jesus loves you!

You might have to get unhappy with the MRX, industry scuttlebutt is that it will be discontinued....the TTSXs are cool though... ( wish they made them in a .22!)
I guess maybe the MRXs "ridiculously over-penetrated"...

IOngwe

They did. Right through all the cash in your wallet and deep into your ass cheek!

TFF!!!

Like usual, Speaking from experience??? na! just talking out your ass!!!

Wonder if..

The OP would actually listen to a person's thousands of words about something he's never used, pounded out in a haze of smoke..

Or the many other people who have actually used the bullet he asks about..

i surely hope not! Granted, you don't NEED them to kill deer but if they shoot crazy good then why not? you'll have a load for Elk and Moose too! the more i shoot the more i like the idea of one load for each rifle! it makes bullet buying sooooo much easier!

the TSX works best when driven fast to initiate expansion. I wouldnt make this load my 1st choice in my 308. i think the TTSX is an improvement in design over the TSX... i would try 130's first

If it shoots great, as the OP has stated, it will kill deer dead at .308Win speeds.

herschel134, you have a box of these bullets? no? They shoot well as you said above, deer season is upon us my friend, load them up, put them in rifle, have the confidence that an accurate load will give you, and go "try" and kill a deer with them. Smoke one of those suckers thru the lungs and see how far it runs...report back...

Herschel34,
I'm with jimmyp here. If you have the bullets, and apparently have loaded & shot them to determine that they are accurate enough in your rifle, go shoot a deer!
All this talk about "delivering enough energy" is worthless mumbo-jumbo if you shoot it where you SHOULD shoot it and it dies.
WTH is "over-penetration" anyway? Is one hole to let blood out better than two?
Does it matter if the body cavity fills with blood or leaks out onto the ground?
A hole in the vitals is a hole in the vitals.

JMHO

Ed

The TSX & the TTSX are extremely effective bullets on Deer or anything else that one decides to shoot with them


This Coyote was hit with a 225 grain TSX 338 bullet and the damage is immense






Chunk of Coyote in Spruce tree 3 to 3.5 feet above the ground

The TSX will work just fine. They will also open just fine on a ribcage; as anyone who has actually used them can attest.

Don't think twice, it is a great deer bullet.

herschel34;
Welcome to the 'Fire from southern BC.

To be clear, I've not been around when any animal was shot with a 165gr. .308" dia. TSX.

That bit of disclosure out of the way, I have been present or responsible for 1 whitetail buck taken with our youngest daughter's .250AI shooting a 80gr. TTSX (25yds), 2 mule and 2 whitetail bucks shot with our eldest daughter's 6.5x55 shooting 130gr. TSX (50-250+yds), 1 whitetail buck shot with a .270 shooting 140gr. TSX (80yds) and lastly 1 mule buck and 1 whitetail buck shot with my .308 Norma shooting 168gr. TSX (75yds & 250? yds)

Of the animals taken, we have recovered 1 TSX/TTSX so far, a 168gr TSX that still weighs 167.7gr found about an inch under the hide on the left rump roast. It was a front on shot that broke 2 vertebrae in the neck, then took out the top left lung lobe and passed through the very full paunch to where it came to rest.

We cut our own meat and help a few other folks do so as well, so part of the process for us is doing a bit of a necropsy on the animals to see how the bullet/cartridge combination worked to send said animal onto our cutting boards.

Based upon the results we've seen on between 120-150 animals, I wouldn't hesitate to use any TSX/TTSX product on deer/black bear/sheep sized animals.

Further I am confident enough in them that I load both of our daughter's hunting rifles with them. As I am the "retriever" as well as trying to make hunting a positive experience for them, I would emphatically not load the TSX/TTSX if I didn't have 100% confidence in them working - as long as they are placed correctly by the shooter.

Hopefully that was some use to you. Good luck on your upcoming hunts and again, welcome to the Campfire.

Regards,
Dwayne

Ah, so, but you see, you can get two holes easily with many bullets OTHER than a TSX. And, they will spin off fragments, which are both empirically and anecdotally shown to kill faster.

As a side bonus, something like a Accubond will be cheaper and have a better BC... which means that it will extend the maximum effective range of something like a .308- IF that matters, which it won't to most folks.

JWP475 sent me a link to this research. Fackler is widely regarded as perhaps THE wound researcher/ballistician. Read what he has to say about fragments.

"Thus projectile fragmentation can turn the energy used in temporary cavitation into a truly destructive force because it is focused on areas weakened by fragment paths rather than being absorbed evenly by the tissue mass. The synergy between projectile fragmentation and cavitation can greatly increase the damage done by a given amount of kinetic energy."

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

How much?

Jeff?

Of course you fail to grasp on to Facklers point that penetration is king and fragmentation is maningless if penetration is lacking..

he fails at a lot of things, lets just put this one on the ever growing list of chit he can't get right!

I'm waiting on some numbers showing how much more effective range the accubond has over the TSX.

168gr TSX .300 Weatherby...don't see a problem with performance

Me too...

I might hafta switch......


Ingwe

he's busy putting more paperclips in his tinfoil hat!

My head hurts...


Ingwe

Lots of off topic twaddle from the boys choir but the Barnes X, TSX and TTSX have killed everything that the guys and gals in our club have shot at it with ONE shot. From the 70 gr 224 starting out at 3600 to the 350 .411 starting at 2000, they have never failed to bring home the meat, and I'm talking several 100 animals from Antelope, to Deer, to Elk to Black Bears. The only joke is is trying to recover one as they bust up everything and keep on trucking. Lots of good bullets out there but isn't interesting that both Nosler and Hornady now have out Barnes knockoffs (and don't try to say it's because of the nutcases in California).
When our el-cheapo Marlin XL 270 with a $350 Bushie will shoot 1.5" 5 shot groups at 200 yards with a max load of A4350 and the 130 TTSX, there hardly seems any reason to switch.
They work and dead is dead.
Dead cow Elk (recovered from dirt bank behind her) with puny 338 Federal and TSX that broke both shoulders. No tracking needed.




dvdegeorge has it right. The same bullet as he used took two Mulies last year and one Antelope from the "obsolete" 300 Savage in a 99R at ranges from 80 to almost 300 yards ... bang ...dead, starting a mere 2800 fps. It will also put 3 in 7/8" @100 with an ancient (good) Burris 1.5-5.

My feet stink...

Jeff_O,

I've shot and witnessed the shot on well over 60 (probably over 100 by now, but I haven't kept count, so I'll keep it conservative) deer, sheep, caribou, bear, coyote, badger, etc, shot with TSX/TTSX bullets, and 90% of all those kills were 1 shot kills where the animal went less than 10 yards before falling dead. I've also seen deer and sheep shot with the GK, MK, AB, HC, and many other CC type bullets. Some of these animals have gone straight down, while others have ran off at least 100 yards, and others have stood perfectly still for several seconds before a 2nd bullet ended the game. Regardless of the bullet used, the common denominator in an animal going straight down is that the bullet hits the right spot (typically shoulder joint/shoulder blade/spine). The common factor in the cases where the animal ran a ways is that the bullet hit a fatal spot, but not ideal for DRT (heart/lungs). The animals that ran 100-200 yards were not hit very well (the rear edge of 1 lung, for example).

Now I know that you have said many times that there is no penetration problem on deer with bullets like the AB, BT, GK, etc, which means that you don't see a need for a bullet that penetrates more than those ones. IME, there is no problem with getting quick kills with the TSX/TTSX! Like I said, 90% of the animals shot with the TSX/TTSX that I've witnessed have gone straight down, or not more than 10 yards. So you say, "why use the TSX if there is no penetration problem to begin with?", and I say "why not use the TSX if there is no DRT problem to begin with?"

There is no problem with there performance and nothings kills better IME&O

Nicely done!

Well... I'd counter that firsthand reports of TSX failures are not uncommon right here on the 'Fire, so it's simply not true to say that they work right 100% of the time. They don't. We've seen plenty of unexpanded ones; we've heard tell of long tracking jobs and penciling. JJHack is about as big a TSX lover as you'll find, and sees hundred of kills a year, and even he says the bonded bullets kill faster. An exit wound is a very high priority for him due to the nature of African hunting and laws, and many of the animals he'd shoot or guide hunters to are considerably stouter than an American deer, so it's a reasonable tradeoff: as close to a gaurantee as you can get that it'll exit, but it's not going to drop the animal as fast on average. Mule Deer says something very similar and has seen a kill or two.

Let's not lose sight of the OP's question here. Clearly, if the question is "will it work"? then the answer can only be: of course it will. So would an FMJ. So would a piece of pot-metal in the shape of a rat turd. It's a freakin' .308 shooting a deer for Pete's sake! But if the question is, is a 165-TSX from a .308 the best choice, then I'm sticking to my guns. No, it isn't, and even Barnes would agree with me! Much less Nosler <grin>.

In the interest of fairness, the same can be said of ALL of our hunting bullets- they all have a failure mode. I think that's a much bigger issue with BIG animals and high-velocity cartridges though.

Let me take a different angle here. Behold the bullet I'd have him use- a 150 or 165-gn Accubond. Can you make a case for how this bullet, which WILL penetrate at .308 speeds; it ain't blowing up, costs half as much, is easier to get, has a very cheap practice bullet analogue in the matching Ballistic Tip, has a better BC if he chooses to stretch his rifles legs a bit, kills faster according to, well, everyone and creates a wound that even a curmudgeon like Fackler has SHOWN to be more lethal... is a WORSE choice than a 165 TSX?

If I could make that case I'd use a TSX. In grizzly country, 165 TSX. For elk, 165 TSX. But for deer?! Really? REALLY?

As always, appreciate the debate Jordan!

There's what, 400-500 fps difference between what a .308 will do and a freakin' 300 Wby? Good grief man.

Really? Ok. This is too easy.

Using a 165-gn AB and TSX, and giving them both a MV of 2800 fps, and drawing a line at 1800 fps since I know that's Noslers rated minimum and I believe it's also what Barnes says... are you ready for this? The .308 is a 450-yd cartridge with the TSX.

It is a 575 yard cartridge with the Accubond.

That's hardly trivial. Run the numbers yourself. The BC of the 165-TSX is flat lousy at .380. The Accubond's BC is .475.

You know... just once, it'd be nice to see you guys politely concede a point. Ingwe, you aren't so bad but Rancho is a total anklebiting 24/7 dick when it comes to any kind of attempt at polite discourse, to the point that I doubt he even has it in him to be adult about being proven wrong, and it gets tiresome.

Here's your chance.

IMO the 165gr TSX 308Win would be a dam nice setup! As your 308 shoots this bullet great there is no need to change at all....
You will have little "blood shot meat" and a deer/elk gun with this bullet...win-win in my book.

As far as overpenetrating? Don' worry about it inless you want the bullet as a souvenir....lol... Have a great hunt..

That's my point, Jeff!

- Every bullet fails from time to time, including the TSX and AB
- Nearly any good 165gr bullet would work just great on deer from a .308. You don't need a TSX, but then again you don't need an AB, either. I'd use a 165gr SST, BT, IL, etc, and I'd be quite confident that the bullet would work absolutely fine
- If I was to use a TSX from a .308, I'd use the 130gr (and I've loaded my brother's rifle with just that bullet for deer/elk)
- My main argument is that the terminal effect of a bullet has far more to do with where it hits the animal, than what kind of bullet is used. I've seen many TSX bullets cause DRT results, and I've seen several non-TSX bullets cause the animals (deer, sheep, caribou, etc) to run a short ways. It's about what the bullet breaks, not so much who made the bullet.

I'll agree with that... but you don't hardly need a 165- TSX to break what needs breaking on a deer with a .308. Which is kind of MY point. Without that need, it becomes a solution in need of a problem. A perfectly reasonable one but hardly the best one.

The rather remarkable accuracy of the TSX, and how it works, have drawn me to it as an elk bullet. Now THERE'S a case for it. Or in go-fast guns.

I think the OP stated he chose this specific bullet because it shoots best in HIS gun. A 150gr will do the job, hell a 110gr will too, but for him, the 165's shot best.

I think you're splitting hairs here Jeff, but that just my personal thoughts. It's not like the Barnes is killing deer slowly when compared to other bullets. They kill, and they kill quick, much like a plain ol' Core-lokt. You can argue all day long on what kills faster, but I'd submit that no bullet kills slowly. The difference is minimal at best.

That said, which makes more sense to you? Placing a "more lethal" bullet with a bad shot, or a slightly "less lethal" bullet right where you intend to? The OP said the TSX's are shooting best, that's what I'd go with. Knowing you can place that bullet exactly where you want to is priceless.

How many Deer have you shot with the TSX bullet or the TTSX??

How many Jeff_O?? NONE, right?

you hardly need a 358 win either, but there are some folks that use them for deer. Unless a fluke the OP load is going to shoot thru any animal he might encounter. That animal is going to die if he does not shoot it thru the azz like some have done, your point in arguing against this TSX load is simply to argue or so it would seem.

A curse on the village that returned our idiot...

LOL!!! 450 vs. 575 yards! Not 451 vs. 574.. With a bullet he's never used..

Jeffy, you're a poster child for the effects of too much pot and the internet.

Like I've told you time and time again - post less, listen more.
You can't make up for your woeful and obvious lack of experience by doing bong rips, calculations, and excruciatingly long winded posts on a hunting forum.

no he is just a typical liberal democrat who is enlightened, smarter than you, and knows more than you will ever know. He can speak about things he has never done with wisdom, and then vote for laws to keep the little people like you safe and in line because he knows what is best and what is right and you simply do not. <grin>

Look up "facetious" in the dictionary....I'm hoping I am mentioned by name, if not pictured...

As soon as I find myself out there with a .308 in my hands, looking at a deer at 575 yards, I know I'm gonna wish for an Accubomb instead of a TSX...PM me your cell #..I will call...and you can say " I told you so..."

BTW..I have actually killed deer with a TSX, though the over penetration was ridiculous...


Ingwe

I have the 130 TTSX loaded up for this season in my 308win. MV was approx 3130 fps....should provide quite wallop

I doubt ill recover one but ill try and if do ill post the pretty pics

But if it drops animals just as fast as any other bullet I've seen, then does that not make the TSX tied for 1st place as the best bullet he could use? Like I said before, "Why not use the TSX if there is no DRT problem in the first place?"

Glad to see the good results.

I loaded up the same for deer this year. What kind og speed are you running?

Just on the basis of your claaim that TSXs cost twice what Accubonds do, I gotta ask have you ever even bought a box in any caliber? If you go look, I find about a 10% premium on the TSXs, but not more. I can find Accubonds at more thsan TSXs and I can find TSXs at the same average prices as Accubonds depending on where you want to buy them. Across the board though it looks like a lot closer to ten percent to me.

Jeff_O,

What are you doing, there isn't more than 2 people around here that will listen to you? Honestly find another hunting/shooting forum and keep your political beliefs to yourself and you may make a friend or two. Around here I don't like your chances. Just not sure why you'd put yourself through the pain . . . kind of feel bad for you.

3250fps

thats got some spank behind it.

Various people have suggested a .30-30�s effective range is limited to about 100 yards. Their assessment, not mine, and of course will vary by load, etc. Nevertheless, a 170g FP or RN running around 2200fps at the muzzle drops to around 1800fps and 1234fpe at 130 yards or so. At 100 yards the velocity would be in the neighborhood of 1900fps with retained energy of 1365fpe.

For comparison purposes, a 165g AccuBond launched at 2800fps will retain a calculated 1903fps and 1327fps at 530 yards. By my calculator, Point Blank, it would still be doing 1800fps and retain 1187fpe at 600 yards.


I don�t know about you, but I think a 170g from a .30-30 is still a fairly potent weapon for deer sized game at 130 yards. It seems to me that a 165g AccuBond (or Ballistic Tip, if you prefer) at the same velocity would be just as effective. If that is the case, Jeff_O was conservative in his 575 yard assessment.

back to the OP. Yes your TSX bullets will work just fine!

By now there should be no doubt but that the TSX will kill deer....just to add a little.... I have only limited experience with the TSX, but 2 seasons ago, my father, a good friend of mine, and I all killed deer with TSX boolits. My dad's was shot with a 7-08. Broke both shoulders and punched thru the lungs. Another was a 150grn TSX I loaded for my friend in his 30-06. Thru and thru chest cavity full of goop. Mine was a 168grn TSX out of my 300 RSAUM. Nasty, gooey, jello mess inside.

Unfortunately, I can not tell you how well they expanded, etc, because none were recovered and the deer weren't talking. I can tell you that the 150 load in the '06 was not a hopped up speed freak, and it killed magnificently.

Enjoy

Wayne

Is there anything more fun than bullet debates ? Especially with people who have never shot anything bigger than a 150 pound Whitetail or the other crowd that believes you have to shoot game at 500 yards because they are so unapproachable.
Most bullets work fine, problems are usually the "nut behind the bolt".

Havent we seen this show before?

many many times! and if people would stop feeding the troll (JO) they'd die out quick but alas i'm just as bad about calling him out.. Ruins many good threads...

Man what a thread!Glad I never used a TTSX to shoot anything...but some of my friends do....so with that vast anecdotal experience,I know they will kill deer just fine....

Why use it? I can think of a few good reasons.First is you want to.....

Second is some guys hunt a variety of game from antelope to elk,moose,bear in a given season.If I lived in Montana for example,owned a 7 mag of some type, I would not be running back and forth to the loading bench and range to resight for the "perfect" deer and antelope, and elk bullet.

I'd just load a 140 TTSX and shoot everything.I suspect it would work fine.And if I were an elk, I would not want to be standing in front of a 140 gr TTSX at 575 yards, regardless what the bullistic tables say.

What was the question anyway?

Bob you would sure to be safe at 576 yards!

\

I see that politely conceding a point, even when it was clearly demonstrated to you, is not in your vocabulary. You just spaz out, as if that will obfuscate the fact that you lost the point. Par for the Rancho Loco course. Heck, par for the TSX-lover course, with a few exceptions.

Plonk.

you're a [bleep] idiot! plain and simple! try reading more and typing less!

Good quote.... cept in the real world of shooters its actually "loose nut behind the butt", not the bolt. Nice try though.

I have killed a pile (several dozen) of deer - (bou) with XFBs and XBTs. Of course, anyone who remembers those days knows that those bullets couldn't hit anything, so I must have been simply lucky. The "few" who did use them apparently had "penciling" issues with the. I simply used them in spite of their less-than-stellar, if adequate, accuracy and shot them through as much animal as I could. (A long moderate hole is generally at least as good as a shorter crater-type hole.) This method worked every single time and with devastatingly rapid results as long as speeds were high.

This 100 grain 7mm killed two 'bou:

You have to forgive frammy, he's dealing with an eye condition.

Frammy... Jeff O... Good to see all the bench warmers are back at the campfire.

As in "eye" should just pick a handle and stick with it.

From the "Adequate Elk Bullet" thread, with MD's permission. The below dovetails nicely with Fackler's research, which I linked to and quoted from earlier, that JWP475 sent me a link to a few months back.



And this is at the core of why I have once again chosen to subject myself to the abuse that comes with saying anything negative about the TSX. A heavier TSX at moderate velocity on a lightly-built animal isn't ideal- even according to Barnes- and WILL NOT kill as fast as a bullet that spins off some fragments... which is also going to exit unless you run a VLD or something... and which will cost less and fly further, too.

I've said this about 5 times already but so that it's not lost in the sturm und drang: to the OP, in my humble opinion you've got a great elk load and serviceable deer load right there. Go forth and kill! But, maybe for next year some R&D into different Barnes bullets, if nothing else, is in order since you are using that 165-gn outside of what Barnes recommends and giving up some real serviceable range in the process.

On a broadside shot, any bullet will work almost every time.

When things go south (which I�ve had happen exactly once), I want a bullet that expands reliably but holds together for deeper penetration � hence my preference for the North Fork bullets and the Trophy bonded my hunting buddy uses. Fortunately on that one occasion I was using a North Fork and the deer only went about two feet - straight down.

That said, my experience with the Barnes TTSX and MRX has been very satisfactory. Three antelope (one belonging to my son-in-law) and two deer and all went straight down except for one antelope that made it about 25 yards after being hit with a 100g TTSX from my .257 Roberts at 300 yards.

We will likely be using .30-06/150g AccuBond and 6.5-06AI/130g Scirocco IIs this year. The antelope can�t drop much faster unless they anticipate the shot and start to drop before the trigger breaks�

Why TTSX (and MRX in the .300WM)? They have been accurate in every rifle I�ve tried them in. So far they have worked very well even for the little critters (antelope). Meat loss has been minimal in every case. Penetration is more than adequate � I can�t say how far they will penetrate as I have yet to recover one. On-game performance is more important to me than cost, although I don�t use these bullets for casual plinking or even the bulk of my more serious practice.

In short, no need to fix what isn�t broken.

YMMV

CH, nothing to argue with there, but I will say that at least with the guns I've used (.32 WS, 30-30, .358, 7mm-08, 30-06, .325) on deer and the bullets I've used (Corelokt, Partition, Accubond, Ballistic Tip, SilverTip, Speer, Interlock, etc) even shots that weren't broadside, weren't a problem. Full penetration, every time.

We have both shot a deer in the butt accidentally. Mine was with an Accubond and also went straight through the hip joint, and the range was close. It went the length of the animal.

So based on my observations, I would broaden your statement a bit. I would say, on DEER, most any bullet will work at most any angle, almost all the time, from most any reasonable cartridge at most any reasonable velocity.

Given that penetration is now off the table as a problem, one can start to look for other things in a bullet than pure unadulterated ridiculous WAY over-penetration- such as a high BC, lower cost, a quicker killing mechanism, etc.

Jeffy, again, how many critters have you shot with a TSX?

Jeff,

Please review my counter-argument. And round and round we go...haha

There is absolutely no proof for that claim. The fact is that once the wound channel is large enough to inflict massive trauma death comes extremely fast, more trauma doesn't necessarily mean faster death


You've taken exactly HOW MANY DEER WITH THE TSX OR TTSX? Oh yea I remember NONE, that's zipola

some folks just know what they know...its like being clairvoyant. They just know what they know never having to ever have tried it or have first hand experience.

That doesn't jive with my experiences and it also seems to go against the guys that are getting quick kills with Berger VLD's.
And just to make you happy, I am using 130gr TTSX's out of a 270 on elk this year. The first load I tried ran 3100fps with 3 shot groups just over a 1/2 inch. I will be sure to take lots of gut pile pics for you...
I would still rather use a BT or Game King on deer though.

You may like what they do 99% of the time when they strike at 2800 fps or 2300 fps; you may like what they do 70% of the time at 1900 fps. Consequently, you may choose not to use them 100% of the time. It seems like a no-brainer to me when there are other choices which may fit an individual's circumstances better.

If you would rather use a BT or Game King, then use them.
I have had more DRT kills with TSX than with any other bullet. TSX, GS Custom, etc all kill very very well

Jeff �

No problem with your first statement � deer aren�t that hard to kill and I�ve only recovered one bullet from deer, a North Fork that had gone the distance lengthwise. Still, I don�t trust cup-and-core bullets at high impact velocities � they can be very effective in dropping deer quickly but they can also cause a lot of unnecessary meat loss. The Grand Slam, North Fork and MRX I�ve used on deer may �way over penetrate� but are effective so no concerns in that department.

�High BC�? A higher BC is one reason I tried the MRX and TTSX after developing loads for the TSX, which I had never used on game due to concerns about reliable expansion � based on a bad experience with XLC�s. The polymer tip improved BC but more importantly successfully addressed my concerns about expansion. Accuracy was more than adequate in all rifles I tried the MRX and TTSX in, although admittedly it took some work with the 120g and 140g TTSX in my 7mm RM (just needed to use a different powder and all was good.)

�Cheaper�? Cost is not a big concern when it comes to my hunting loads. That might change if I ever live in a state where the number of deer you can shoot is limited by the number of license you can afford to buy, but here in Colorado an exceptional year would allow me to have two deer tags, an antelope tag and two elk tags � something that has never happened, and three tags are more common. This year I have two Wyoming antelope tags and a cow tag. The money I�d save shooting cheapo bullets wouldn�t buy me a cheap glass of wine with my dinner out. All considered, bullet cost doesn�t reach a meager 1% of my total hunting costs and if cutting costs was a goal it is certainly not where I would start.

�Different loads�? Some people would argue that I should use different loads for antelope or deer than for elk. Except for my .257 Roberts, my loads are the same and are working just fine � I have no need for multiple loads and the problems they cause (more load development, rezeroing when switching, more inventory on the reloading bench, etc.). Thanks, but no thanks � I have different loads for plinking/practice and hunting and plan to leave it at that.

�Pure unadulterated ridiculous WAY over-penetration�? When the animals go straight down more often than not and the others don�t go far at all, what do I care if the bullets exit and expend some of their energy in the landscape behind the target? At least I�m assured of deep penetration when it is needed, which is considerably better than not enough penetration.

�Meat loss� IS a concern. I generally hunt the females of the species, in part because the licenses are often easier to get and sometimes cost hundred$ less. (Note: Want to save some money? That WAY more than pays for the difference in bullet cost.) The females are generally smaller to begin with and wasting a shoulder due to explosive bullet performance is not on my list of priorities. The Grand Slam, North Fork, MRX and TTSX I�ve used have been very good about not wasting meat.

�Quicker killing mechanism�? Just how quick do they need to be? Of the last three deer, three antelope and two elk I�ve been involved with (all mine except for one antelope), all went straight down on impact except for one antelope that went about 25 yards. Three North Fork, two MRX, three TTSX, zero complaints. As I�ve said before, the only way they could drop faster is if they started to fall before the trigger broke.

(Note: My son-in-law pulled the trigger on one of the antelope, his first and only animal to date. To those that say second hand experience has no value, as was claimed in another thread, I say �BS� - it is shared experience that keeps us out of the caves. In this case I built the loads, zeroed the rifle with them, was 10 feet away when the shot was taken, and am not foolish enough to believe the results would have been different had I squeezed the trigger.)

I don�t need to look for cheaper or different bullets, I need to find a way to get more hunting time�




[Edited to add..]

A correction to the above - this year I have two cow tags for Colorado, a Snake River Ranch RFW tag and a Unit 3 public land 3rd season tag. Due to differences in the overlapping season dates (Snake River starts earlier), it is unlikely I'll have time to make use of the Unit 3 tag. If I get lucky early on Snake River, though...

This video from Barnes addresses the "overpenetration" issue. Start watching at about the 2:30 mark....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV8ij1gK-ck

I am a Barnes fan but find those clips a bit misleading as most appear to be selected CNS shots. The DRT effect is impresssive but YMMV.

JO no doubt has "won" another arugument here on the campfire and the original poster will probably never ask another question. Sad that he simply wanted to know if a triple shock would kill a deer.

I think it was a stand-off. There is obviously the odd TSX that fails to drop the animal within a few yards, and the odd AB which fails to penetrate adequately, but as a rule JO said (in effect) "The AB penetrates plenty, so why do I need the TSX?", and the rest of us are saying "The TSX kills lightning-quick, so why do we need the AB?"

Which also answers the OP's question quite tidily...

Maybe if someone could mold the 2 together this silly ass argument would end.

Not likely

I have stayed out of this one, but can't stand it anymore, so will address the heading of this thread: "Barnes Triple Shock in Whitetail": I have never been able to find a Barnes Triple Shock in a whitetail.

and as Paul Harvey would say

"That's the rest of the story!"

and the end of the story...

Jimmy.

You are making the classic, classic Campfire mistake here. You are saying that vigorous discussion of a topic is somehow BAD. You are demonizing the person who took a position other than yours. This is similar to recently when YOU ASKED about .260 vs. .358, then proceeded to tear me a new one for doing my best to take a position and flesh it out. WTF, dude? Why even ask if you don't want to hear both sides?

Jimmy, what is it you think we are doing here?

For your edification, THIS is the original poster's question. Now I ask you point-blank: did I, or did I not, seek to address the poster's question?



Here's my first reply to that question. Notice I said, "rock on"!



There was never the slightest doubt that a 165-gn TSX will kill a deer. That would be idiotic. What IS worth debating, and what the OP ASKED FOR, was a discussion about whether it was the best bullet available, and whether the way a TSX works- particularly a heavy one at moderate velocities- was "the best" for the intended game.

Until guys like you learn that just because someone takes another position than you in a debate, doesn't mean the world is ending and it's time to horn up and have at it, this forum will continue to be one big pissing match when it comes to this kind of question.

JO read below:

I was curious to hear the opinions of using 165 gr Barnes Triple Shock in a 308. I have a new rifle that shoots them better than any other bullet I've tried (i.e sierra BTSP, Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, Etc).

I guess my thoughts are that it may over penetrate and not deliver as much energy to the deer. Although, if I have got to track one, I would like to have an entrance/exit wound.

Thanks for the opinions

I just can't stand it anymore myself....the classic mistake that I made was telling a guy who's rifle shoots the tSX better than any other bullet to just go use it and stop listening to foolish pontification from people that don't know anymore than he does.

308 lovers, try the 130 tx with 50-52g of 748 .050 off the lands, tiny, tiny groups at 3100-3200+ fps.

Deer will not stop the 130g tripple shock, why go heavier if you are not shooting distance.

I'd say that the classic mistake you made, and are making, is that you are bustin' chops on someone who attempted to specifically address the OP's question from a perspective different than yours, and in process getting yourself mad enough about it that you take it to a personal level when this was really not necessary, or helpful to the discussion.

He said, and you underlined, that he was concerned about overpenetration and energy transfer. Those concepts are often abused and rightly mocked when they are, but, in point of fact a bullet has the energy it is carrying, no more and no less, and that energy can be used to do work, and that work can be manifested in a variety of ways. It could be manifested in explosiveness- a smoking crater on the surface of the deer. It can be manifested as partial explosiveness- fragments spinning off, with the remaining energy being used by the bulk of the bullet as it penetrates. Or it can be used for pure penetration.

Where energy gets silly as a metric is in comparing DIS-similar cartridges. The 22/250 - 45/70 comparison is a common one. But when comparing IDENTICAL bullet weights at IDENTICAL speeds, it becomes useful. One bullet "wastes" energy by massively overpenetrating. Another bullet doesn't penetrate as much, but uses some energy to propel fragments into the surrounding flesh. Etc. In either case, by the time the bullet is at rest, all energy has been used (practically speaking). In the case of the over-penetrator a significant part of it wasn't used to wound the deer... it was used to put the bullet 6" deep into the oak tree behind the deer. That floats some guy's boats, but it bugs others, and the OP was apparantly of the latter camp since he mentioned this concern explicitly.

No Jeffy Boy, people don't really have a problem with the other perspective, they just expect it to come from someone with ACTUAL experience with the item in question. NOT from someone who read it on the internet, or heard a writer say, or read it in a magazine.

You see the problem is you have NO experience with said bullet on deer, so basically, your opinion means NOTHING on the subject.

I think the real problem is you can't except that.

Bill

here is a youtube video you can see the copper bullets are a better choice than lead on game.

That don't stop dipshitt Jeff, he don't need no stinking experience to tell folks how it is. Regardless, the amount of experience he has an anything is less than he has on Barnes.

I wish i had said "rock on," too. That is sooo hip.

The FRESH pigskin was a nice touch!

They were really pimpin' weight retention and penetration there...

I think the biggest thing in the original question that I would consider is whether you need to be choosing a TSX based on the best accuracy of the choices. At the distances (speeds) where the TSX is most ideal, that accuracy may not be needed assuming we're not talking 1 1/2" vs 3" or something. If indeed we're splitting hairs with loads comparing accuracies of 5/8" vs 1" or something along those lines and we're looking at distances where one might actually need such precision differences, then I think I'd opt for a bullet that has a greater likelihood of expanding well out yonder, while also being sufficiently tough at nearer distances. I really think it is as easy to wrongly choose too hard a bullet because of great accuracy as it is to choose too soft a bullet for the same reason. If all you're trying to do is place a shot at 200 yards though, use whatever bullet you like. The extra accuracy probably won't matter a whit, and neither will the bullet you choose. The original Xs proved that you don't need super-duper accuracy to get the job done.

Nice.

Good news is, everyone (me too) agrees that the fellow is well-set for deer from his .308. He'll poke 'em, they'll die. Rifles are pretty cool that way.

I'm certain the original poster is sleeping well knowing he has the good house keeping seal of approval from a blithering azz shoot' in know nothing do nothing buffoon...

your a complete tool and not worth further investment of time. go back to where you have been.

Klik �

I agree. Accuracy is a relative thing and better than �good enough� isn�t necessary. Most of my rifles will put handloads into an inch or so ant that is much better than �good enough� out to 600 yards, the limit of my regular practice and beyond where I would attempt a shot at game except perhaps in the rare occasion where getting closer isn�t feasible and circumstances are almost perfect.

As to bullet choice, I think it is fairly easy to choose an inappropriate bullet, particularly when going with cup-and-cores. Too hard and too slow can result in pencil-through wounds, too soft and too fast often results in excessive meat loss. It is just as easy, however, to choose a bullet that is appropriate for all common ranges, from muzzle contact distance to 600 yards and further � although such bullets generally cost more.

The limited experience I�ve had with Grand Slams (20+ years worth with multiple shooters, antelope to elk) made me a believer in their efficiency. Same thing with Partitions, although I never pulled the trigger on one personally. Both the Grand Slams and Partitions have been more tha �good enough� in the accuracy department in my rifles. Since 2003-2004 my main hunting buddy and I have been using Trophy Bonded and North Fork. Accuracy has been stellar with both. We have yet to recover a Trophy Bonded, but the North Fork bullets look about the same whether recovered from an elk shot broadside from 10 paces or from dirt at 500 yards.

A bad experience with Barnes XLC�s and an unfortunate antelope kept me from ever trying TSX on game, even though they were exquisitely accurate � in my Roberts, for example, they had a propensity to shoot the centers out of clay pigeons at 200 yards and leave the rest of the pigeon intact. Any expansion issues seem to have been fixed with the tipped versions, the MRX and TTSX. My son-in-law dropped an antelope straight down at close range with a 168g TTSX from a .30-06 and I dropped another straight down with the same bullet and a .308 Win at about 125 yards. One antelope went 20 yards or so after I shot it with a 100g TTSX at 300 yards and two mulie does went straight down to 180g MRX on frontal shots at a little over 300 yards. All were pass-thru shots and meat loss was minimal.

I can�t say for sure how the 120g A-Frames I load for my Roberts will perform, but based on results with the North Fork and Trophy Bonded, which have similar front ends (bonded), it seems reasonable to expect similar performance. The A-Frames have also provided outstanding accuracy.

In a few minutes I�ll be headed to the range to make final adjustment to my three .30-06s for the upcoming antelope hunt. The loads I�ll start with are 150g Ballistic Tips, which I�ve used for load development and zeroing. Then I�ll switch to 150 AccuBonds which so far seem to shoot identically. The AccuBonds will likely be what my nephews use in a couple weeks (although they can use any rifle in the safe, their choice). I�ll either do the same or use my 6.5-06AI and 130g Scirocco II�s. If the AccuBonds perform well I�ll continue to use them but if they perform as their derisive �Accubomb� appellation would indicate, I�ve got a couple boxes of plinking bullets. Same with the Scirocco II�s. Time will tell.

As to the original poster, I�d suggest using TTSX or MRX rather than TSX, problem solved.

I've killed a bunch of Georgia whitetails with 168 TSX's in front of a max load of Varget from my .308 over the last 3 years.
They work.
The attached pic is the exit from a doe this past season.

Waaaay over-penetration, for sure..