Speed ?

engery dispersion ?

Ease of shooting ?

I don't think anyone has preached it works "better". It works "just as well".

someone has to believe it's better, I've killed deer with pointy sticks so thinking a 223 couldn't kill a deer is just foolish.

I'm interested in the view though

Shot Placement?

LOL !!!!

The "logic" goes something like this:

I own a .223, so it HAS to be the best deer rifle since I am a "master" deer hunter.

Also I have shot three (count 'em....3) deer with my .223....hit the spine each time... and all were DRT. The other 6 deer I shot at that ran away....must have been clean misses.

The one deer my friend shot with his .30-06 ran away and we never found it. It WAS gut shot, but that shouldn't make a difference, so obviously the .223 is far superior to the .30-06 for deer.

I don't!!!

[quote=cole_k]I don't!!! [/quote

Must be the 30 rd mag that makes the difference. Magnum Man

A 223 is better than a larger bore? For deer? Better than a 270 Win? 308? 30-06? Really?

I would take my open sighted 32 Special Model 94 over any 223 on the market. But I hunt larger bodied Northern Whitetail subspecies. Perhaps the Brock deer...

Don't know for sure who originally coined this phrase "You can kill a dink with a stick"..JM maybe, but still funny and so true!! Deer aren't hard to kill with anything !!! And yes I have never heard anyone say a 223 works Better than larger bores..just that it works period..

I don't know too much about the 223, since I've only shot a few sub-150 lbs. whitetails with them, but a quick(er) twist 22-250 paired with either the 60 grain Partition or 64 grain PP sure is easy to shoot, no meaningful recoil, and the deer go down, just like they do with any well placed shot and a proper bullet.

JEff

It works....not better, or just as well...just works.

The .223? Never my choice, I have far better.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

I killed a few with a 222 Rem Mag (same thing basically).

Kill them? Sure did.

"Better" than my 7mm-08? Hardly.

Will I use it again, by choice? Doubtful.

Just me...

Killing deer is easy, no real magic to it. I do know I've seen more deer drop within a few stops when plunked with a little slug going out of a 223AI than I have seen when shot with a 30/06. Everything has died, just that 223AI has dropped them quicker.

The above is written by a guy that only owned/hunted a 30/06 for a dozen years or so and thought you needed a big caliber for deer.


Deer seem far more impressed with velocity.


PS: This ain't a Brock deer....

Almost a Brock deer and this one went the furthest of any deer I've shoot. Of course it was shot with a 35 Whelen.




Yes, I believe the 223AI works mo better than the slower/big bore rounds on deer.

It's no wonder it ran, look how far off the shot placement was........

That's it.....

Is that an 8 year-old, from the swamp?

Maybe that had something to do with it.

Roe deer from the Highlands...

Since I have zero experience with the game killing ability of the 223, my opinion is only theory. Bullet construction and shot placement puts it in the ranks of a "deer" cartridge. I am old and set in my ways though and feel that all things being equal, bigger is better. As some on this board have stated many times, shoot the most powerful cartridge that you can shoot well. Or, don't send a boy to do a man's job! grin!

Well as compelling as the ZERO EXPERIENCE is, I have experience with both and find bigger ain't always 'better'..

That's not what the ladies say! LOL! Or you can say it ain't what you've got, it's how you use it.

I only have to make myself happy....

Speaks volumes...Im eager to try the .223 this season..let the .308 rest a bit.

Don't confuse me with facts when I've already made up my mind!
I know a guy who killed a nuisance bear with a .204 Ruger but that doesn't make it the rifle of choice.
PS It didn't drop in its tracks either
whelennut

There is a lady who hunts with my inlaws who can't kill a deer with a 30-30. Maybe she would have better luck with a .223?
I'm betting she is flinching but it's only a guess.

Id not go after a bear with a .204...point well taken.But plenty of 180 Partitions 'round here for the 30-06..

Folks do realize a bear ain't a deer, right? Course I'd have no issues sticking a black bear with a 223AI either.

I won't argue that a .223 isn't an effective deer killer, used within it's limitations.

I just don't accept those limitations.

Tough to argue what you have no experience with. Well tough for someone that ISN'T an idiot.

If I could get Ty to build a 35 TSX or something like I'd have no issues taking on blacky la teur with it..grin

Dober

You don't need a 6" lift kit to drive thru a poodle of water.

Ive killed more deer with a .243 than I can ever remember. I'm sure a .223 will perform well also.

Read the original post. The gentleman asks "Why do you THINK a 223 works better than larger bores on deer?" I never professed to be an expert on the subject, but since this is an open forum and I am a resgistered user I stated what I think. The OP can take it for what it's worth or not worth. He posed the question and I gave my opinion. Anyone is free to disagree and flame me for an OPINION and guess what, it doesn't make me wrong. Until I see physiological evidence based on scientific findings I'll keep my opinion. Just because a few outspoken guys on this forum have thousands of posts does not qualify them as researchers with scientific findings. If someone is gun shy and can't handle recoil and can hit well with a light caliber it beats the heck out of poor shooting, but there is no evidence, except by a few guys on the campfire that use them that they are "better" killers than a 243, 257, 7mm, 30-06, 30-30, etc. etc.. Only years of testing with scientific studies can prove or disprove it. Sorry guys, dead is dead. I think that if the 223 was such a great deer cartridge, nobody would hit the woods without one. It is in fact, that is not the case. The popularity of the cartridge is due to the military adoption of the round and it's subsequent use by military veterans, varmit hunters, and target shooters. With good bullets it has become an adequate, but I doubt better or even as good of a deer killer. Again, my opinion. No scientific evidence, just like no scientific evidence proving that it is better. The exact location of the hit IMHO dictates how quickly that death comes. As a matter of fact, one of the more outspoken and respected members on this forum said that it was the bullet, not the headstamp that matters most. Which "expert" do you want to believe? Don't forget, the definition of an "expert" is anyone 25 miles from home. All of the experts here are a long way from home here in cyberspace. LOL! Try this stuff for yourself and make up your own mind, if what you are using isn't getting it done for you. If you can't kill them with a 270, and you can shoot it well, that 223 isn't going to help you.

How about .223's that aren't AI'd? How is the performance on deer?

Tender vittles broadside at 100 yards in a hayfield.(close to the house)

Big toad mulie angling away right before dark at 450 yards.(slight breeze....grin)

So many variables.

I honestly think a 270 Win-300 mag hurts a deer way more if the shot isn't a good one but at the same time the 223, 22-250 and 220 Swift have killed a tremendous amount of deer in the hands of good riflemen/hunters.

.270... gaaaack. What the hell have you killed with a .270??

Looking forward to more opinions from you on what you have no experience. Guessing you ask the check out girl about a medical condition, cuzz what do doctors know.....laffin

No, a doctor has credentials. Show me the scientific evidence to support your view. Show me where a deer is "deader" with a 223. Show me your research. The only thing that you can say is you have an opinion based on very limited experience and zero scientific research data to back it up and your favorite caliber is in a vast minority of deer cartridges. So the world should believe you? You have large post numbers, most of them are one liners that you think are witty. Some think you are and I expect them to show up because you seem to be in trouble backing your opinion with any substance so name calling and ridicule to follow. The name calling and smart ass remarks may make you feel better about yourself, I hope, because you apparently are in dire need of it. I am looking forward to more of your juvenile behavior, speaks volumes about you. Did I read correctly that you were an officer in the Coast Guard? I sure hope that it's not true.

FWIW In the last 60+ years, I've killed more than 200 ungulates, in several states, countries and two continents. With at least 15 different cartridges and who knows how many different bullets. A whole bunch of whitetails were killed with 22cal centerfires...222, 222 rem mag, 22-250 and 22-250AI...most with a 22-250. My late father and son have killed more than a few with 22cal centerfires [along with several other cartdriges] We've used several different bullets, sierra GKs, Hornady, Barnes..but the vast majority were [horrors] Sierra 53gr matchkings. I have a theory [not a drop of true scientific evidence, but certainly a good number of post mortems] If you have ever played contact sports, you likely have had the breath knocked out of you...I mean when you lay on the ground and think I'm dying. You can't breath, can't get a breath. A post mortem on a deer shot in the chest with a 22centerfire reveals almost complete destruction of vital organs..i.e., lungs turned to "soup" heart heavily damaged..it is my theory that the breath is knocked out of the deer and unlike us, the ability to regain breath is gone..While this effect can and does happen with larger calibers, my postmortems suggest that more often the lungs or heart has a hole through it...certainly will cause death, but not always as quickly. The "hole" will and can cause death in several ways, not the least of which is simple drowning in blood. A big exit hole certainly can result in death from simple loss of blood. I'm certainly not suggestion that 22 centerfires are the be all end all, but if you shoot the animal through the chest cavity, the animal is dead and usually right there. They don't do well if you choose to shoot'em in the butt or gut shoot'em..however, my experience with those shots in not too good regardless of cartdrige/caliber. Do I use 22 cal centerfires in the rockies for big mule deer or elk, nope. Do I use em in africa for plains game? nope. But for deer where I can expect good shot angles, reasonable distances, yep, I opine they work very well.

FYI, you [bleep] up right there.

I started killing deer with .22 CF's in 1967, .222 Rem. with 50 grain Norma factory sp's. I've killed a lot of them over the years with everything from .22 WRM to .45-70 and shotgun slugs. What rifle I take on a given day depends on the weather and what mood I'm in. Probably half the time any more it's a .223 with 65 grain SGK's over 27 grains of Varget. It works as well as anything for me. Then again, I lost my desperation to kill a deer long ago and pretty much only take slam dunk shots. The boys who try to hose down running deer in the woods and/or belong to the "just get 'em leakin' so you can track 'em down" school of deer shooting would probably be better served by bigger calibers.

Any one man and his friends I would consider very limited experience when compared to the number of deer hunters and number of deer killed. Scientific evidence trumps one man's experience. Are you here to help the guy out or can he handle the job himself? Just asking.

He can handle himself, as can I.

Then why don't you let him? He needs to have a little more scientific data and a little less bravado and opinion. Now I'm going to get some stuff done that doesn't revolve around a cyber-forum, you go ahead and HANDLE yourself. Good Night.

If you didn't notice, I sent you a FYI to help ya out. Trust me, he will handle himself. I have homework to do myself, so I will check the "cyber forum" a little later.

Sounds like you got sand in your vag. Take care.

Geez...another troll in the making....

Rumor have it a barn cat but some baiting might of been involved...

Dober

Sheesh....

barn cat too amart, muat have been a houae cat wandering

Am I the only one who is unimpressed by short time know-it-alls and rule setters?

Nope..sign me up...

Seems a little bravado based on doing trumps a whole lot of dumbphucking by guessing.

Steely, where is your data..hmmm??? Data man data....give me data. Do you have data to back that data up? You can't possibly be successful without data. Friggen trolls. Flinch

You know I got to thinking (which seems to be in short supply among some) about what you posted here, and I agree. Why should we want facts. We should just blindly believe any nonsense that someone posts on the internet with nothing of substance to back it up. What the heck is wrong with me?????? You must believe the world is flat. Laffin!

The fact of the matter is lots of folks on here have killed a pile of game with 22 CFs and have complete confidence in them. That's enough "proof" for them and me as well.

While I have not looked for it, I doubt you'll find much "scientific data" on the issue, just lots of magazine articles and posts from hunters using 22 CFs for deer and such.

There's nothing wrong with using bigger rounds if that gives you confidence. I have used 375 H&H and a 340 Wby for whitetails as well as a 22-250. I have never seen a difference in their performance and with a variety of bullets. They either fall on the spot or run maybe 50 yards.

About time for this topic...

Every time it pops up a new group of idiots has moved in...

It is good to know that the fire has you to show us the error of our ways.

You seem like a clear thinking person so I will respond in a civil manner. If you will look back on my posts you will see that I NEVER said that the 223 would not kill a deer. I gave my opinion that I didn't think that it would kill deer any better and probably not as well. I offered an opinion which was what the OP asked for. I didn't start the dispute. Steelhead felt the need to give me a zinger over my opinion. He is the one who claims that they kill BETTER. If you want to accept that opinion, so be it. I prefer to use my good judgement and find his opinion questionable. If he can produce factual data I will apologize and yield to him. If not, for many of the reasons that anyone can feel free to read again, I'm not buying what he's trying to sell. I'm not out to convince anyone of anything. For anyone who thinks that he is correct, they better be shooting a 223 or have one on order or else they are carrying inferior equipment according to him. As I expected I'm getting the haters ganging up on me because I had the nerve to call into question a Campfire legend. I believe from what little time I've been on this board they would be called "ball lickers". I'm still learning the jargon but I figure that by the time this thread is over I will get the whole list of condesending terminology. Post counts don't impress me and neither does his aggressive style. But that's just me. He seems to be real popular here. Good for him. Bad for people who don't choose to worship him. As a former veteran myself, thanks for your service to our great nation.

Here is one reason. Speed impresses deer more in my observations.






Your turn JO

PS: You might also want to learn about paragraph breaks

It's the way of disagreeing friend...

It maybe your way of disagreeing, however I may disagree with what you say but would not call you an idiot because you have a different point of view.

Just say'n.

Wayne

I've said this before and your post affirms the speed issues.... I don't run speed just because... but faster usually drops em quicker... teh anecdote... teh old man here..... shot 220 swift, was a gun nut, 40whatever HP bullets, and probably way over pressure, shot all his deer in the flank. Read that guts. Family claims that he didn't lie.... not a one ever did anything but DRT. Not my personal choice but I"ve seen guts hit with slow, and guts hit with fast.... fast usually dumps em..... Fast in the vitals never did anything negative unless you were the deer. Other than destroy lots of good meat if you didn't pick your projectile correctly.
A buddy has been running a 257 Roy last fall/winter.... said its the only round that he has ever shot when he doesn't need to trail deer basically... all rib shots and all ran, but just wonder over that direction and within 30 yards they are piled up...

I have let children use my 223s to shoot deer,mostly does and a few smallish bucks.

I moved my eight year old so up to a 243 and he killed a nice 4x4 whitetail with it this year.

In general,I think it's best to avoid extremes in deer cartridges.The two longest tracking jobs I've had were from a 35 Whelen with 225 grain partitons and a 243 with a fragile boat tail bullet.

The big whelen bullet zipped through like a solid,and the little boatail blew to smithereens on the shoulder of a little buck.

This leads to me mostly using guns 257 caliber through 30 caliber firing good bullets anywhere from 120 grains through 165 grains at a velocity of range of 2700-3200 fps.

This seems to be the sweet spot in terms of what works for me.

Not that you can't do it with bigger or smaller stuff,but I think avoiding extremes and staying with these deer cartridges and bullets is a pretty good plan.

Huh?

Did you think I was calling you an idiot or something?

If you're one of those who have never used a .223 on game yet opine about it's effectiveness then you may be correct in reposnding to my post like you did...grin...

If you're not one of those folks, then we have no beef...grin...

Adios amigo...

Spotshooter: "I" have never said that a 223 Remington round "works better than larger bores on Deer".
But I am quick to counter anyone who says the 223 Remington is NOT an efficient Deer/Antelope killer!
Like others here have posted I have seen MANY dozens of Deer and Antelope killed "in their tracks" with the 223 Remington AND various other 22 centerfires!
Now, I will get to the WHY portion of the 22 centerfires sometimes unappreciated or unacknowledged efficiency in lethality on Deer sized game.
I attribute this efficiency in lethality of the 22 centerfires to the explosive effects of the 22 centerfires projectiles in the heart/lungs area of the game.
They place/expend virtually all of their energy INSIDE the "boiler room" of Deer sized game.
Often times the projectiles of "larger bores" will pass through Deer sized game and the wounds incurred thusly atke a little longer to "kill".
I have gutted and cleaned dozens of 22 centerfire killed Deer and Antelope and when the bullet passes into the heart/lungs area the results are just catastrophic for the game!
They often die in their tracks.
Ease of shooting (or lack of recoil) may also play a part in the shooters ability to place their bullets in the proper place (heart/lungs area)!
Be on the lookout for ANYONE that tries to deny that the 223 Remington is a VERY efficient caliber for Deer - any such person is ignorant (turdlike!) and is to be viewed with great skepticism and disdain!
Long live the 223 Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I'll start doing that when you start adding periods to the end of your sentences. I've grown tired of your juvenile behavior so this will be my last post on this subject. My apologies to the OP for allowing a very good thread to turn into a stupid back and forth over nothing. Sorry.

ruraldoc,
Can you describe the bullet placement of the the 35 Whelen bullet that caused you such a long tracking job please?
It must have been a poor hit IMO. Any deer I have shot has been awful easy to find. The trail is very short and lots of blood,
even Hellen Keller could find them.
whelennut

I've killed quite a number of deer with the .223 as well as the .222 and 22-250. They are all quick killers and quite lethal at the shorter distances where velocity is still high. Get out past 150 yards where velocity has fallen off and their effectiveness definitely falls off. Beyond that, I'll take a larger cal. every time. Most effective deer cal. overall ? Not hardly !

The deer was quartering toward me and I hit him where I intended,at the junction of his neck and shoulder at about the middle of his boddy. The bullet went through both lungs and exited ahead of the diaphram through the short ribs.

Small hole in,small hole out,with a small wound channel between the holes.

Too much bullet on a 170 pound whitetail buck IMO.

The blood trail was mighty skimpy but we did find the deer who went about 100 yards.

I much prefer the 200 grain Hornady in the Whelen on deer.

There are times when you may be caught out with a 222, 223 or 22-250 - and with a good bullet and correct placement, they will certainly take a deer cleanly. All you need is confidence in your abilities.

I would normally opt for a larger calibre when chasing deer , but like I said - the 22 centrfires can do the job when there isnt anything else on hand - unless you like throwing rocks at them!!

7mm

Larger bores or larger boars?

I don't. 'Nuff said.

Only move you had...................................................

doubt it....

I have seen little difference on deer in terms of terminal performance when shooting them with the following:

30-30
270Win
223Rem
30Rem (old slide-action rifle from the first decade of the 20th century)

None. Nada. Zip. Zer0.

Then again, I never had to shoot a deer twice with any of them, and I don't take shots I can't make.

YMMV, as it isn't the arrow, it's the indian......

(FWIW, the only real "tracking" I've ever had to do was after shooting a decent sized buck through the heart at about 10 yards with a 270. Finding the deer was rather easy, as it blew out the far shoulder exiting and the deer was spurting blood far enough that I passed on the 2nd shot and just waited a half hour in the stand then went and got him)

I'm just sayin on account of my A.D.D. I can get hung up on little distractions like this.... Larger boars on deer....

I've ruined this topic for myself.

Plus one.

If "speed" is the thing an '06 will push a 130 mighty fast... just sayin'.

I do think it's cool that folks use and report on them, and I'll concede that they appear to work more reliably than I'd have thought possible. And Scott's point about seeing the hit is a good one.

But there's too many ways that virtually any regular deer cartridge beats .223.

What ways would those be GUESSER?

Some of us hunters make mistakes, some of us during the course of taking a shot encounter unexpected events, some of us make sure we carry a bit more than bare minimum for when the inevitable happens. But that's just a little bit of every day genius(common sense). But I guess planning for perfection, everytime, is what passes for real world around here. I really like this site most of the time, but some of these pissing matches are just tiring. Don't change your mind, no matter what, and argue till God cometh.

I'm that guy also, hence the reason I generally throw Barnes X bullets at [bleep]. I always aim for bone and with the exception of a 64gr PP I haven't recovered a 224 bullet in a deer.

223AI ain't bare minimum, but what folks don't know, they don't know. Ignorance is a Badge of Honor around here with MANY.

Point taken on the barnes, but I do think you need to make that clear on the argument, because otherwise it doesn't hold much water.

Seems killing [bleep] with a 223AI holds water, as I've posted about it many times.

Seems the idiots that have never used it and post on this thread are the ones that are holding piss water.

Well, if you ALWAYS aim for bone and HIT IT, you wouldn't have deer running off with the bigger cals. either. Dick head.

But they do wetspot, that's the whole ever loving point that you are again to obtuse to follow

Not if you hit em right schitthead. BTDT more times than your stupid ass can count.

Like I posted above, the only deer I had to go find was hit through the heart from about 10 yards with a .270 and the far shoulder was destroyed by the exiting bullet.

I usually donate the hearts of deer to a lady I work with who's science teacher daughter lets the kids dissect them. This one was destroyed and un-usable.

So, anyhow, I guess my point is that you are wrong, sometimes you can hit them "right" with less than bang-flop results.

Just say'n, since I've BTDT as well.....

I've no doubt you've had plenty of [bleep] dicks.

Heart shot ain't "right" for bang/flop results with anything.

Lol....

"...out past 150 yards where velocity has fallen off their effectiveness definately falls off..."

Yeah, like the one my buddy shot at a measured 380 yards. The effectiveness dropped off so badly that the deer instead of being DRT, made it 30 yards. That's terribly ineffective.

But hardly as ineffective as you trying to get a clue.....

Wow, a sample of one ! I'm so friggin' impressed ! Your buddy was lucky. His luck would run out if he kept shooting at deer 380 yards away with a .223. You're the one who needs to get a clue, or maybe just a little more experience would help.

I don't think it works "better", and probably marginally not quite as well. Here's one study done in SC (a bit smaller deer than further north), which found very little difference between .243 to .30 caliber weapons:

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

Sadly, the .22s weren't included in the study. One thing that's more important here in the often heavy undergrowth of the South is a good blood trail, and for that I personally think 6.5mm and up is the way to go. An expanded 6.5mm has almost 40% more surface area than an expanded 5.56mm.

I'd honelstly not say it works "better" either, but it can certainly work adequately and is a "better" tool for the job in some applications. Judging from the results I've seen on hogs and deer, a 62gr X at 3200+ can make a dandy setup for a young shooter or even an older shooter who doesn't like recoil. I'd not want to stick an animal at 300yds or more but don't feel handicapped inside of that range.

Most of the deer I killed with my .223's were under 150 yds. and it killed like lightning there. Never had a single one go more than 40 yds. and most dropped where they stood. I only stretched it's legs a few times and found it had lost that lightning bolt effect on the few I shot past 225 yds. The one I shot at about 350 ran 175 yds. before going down, despite a well placed shot through the lungs.

The blunt little bullets do bleed speed.....

PreciousLiberty, I personally agree with you and Ruraldoc and feel better shooting deer with'deer' calibers - so everyone go buy a 260 Rem and STFU!!!!! Unless whatever it is you are using works for you now.

Guys, it ain't the caliber that kills, it is the design of the bullet and the speed it impacts that does the killing. X bullets rule in the .22 CF rounds. "Some" of the soft points aren't bad either, like the 55 grain Hornady spire point flat base and the 64 grain Winchester power points. Precious few others will hold together and that is when things get ugly.

The same can be said for just about any caliber. I have seen .243 bullets .260, .270 and 7mm bullets go to pieces in less than 4" of deer. 99% of guys would blame the cartridge, when it was the bullet that failed.

Pick the RIGHT bullet for the RIGHT task, put it in the right place and punch tags. Pick the wrong bullet for the wrong task and stick it in the wrong place and get out your tracking tape.

I know what works in .22 CF's based on experience. I know what works and doesn't work in .260's, 7mm's and .30's as well, based on experience. I have seen them all fail miserably when the wrong bullet was used. The failures weren't based on scientific data, but LOTS of field experience with hundreds of dead critters I have been privy to. Flinch

Difficult, ain't it......

I am surprised that a few Kiwi's haven't jumped on this one.

.224's (.22 Hornet and .222 Rem) were the chosen caliber for the professional deer cullers of past generations who killed tens of thousands of fallow, reds and sika deer. You could carry more ammo for their long stays in the bush.

John

I know first hand that an autistic 12 year old can whack the schitt outta a bison with a 223 and TSX. Bullet exited... rib in, rib out. Dead buffalo in maybe 30 yards.

Now I gotta ask, if a 12 year old rain man can do it, what the [bleep] is wrong with the rest of you?

Ungulates ain't exactly bullet proof or armor plated people.

Shot placement, and the correct amount of car bomb effect on innards I think has something to do with it's success.

I have not replayed this one on this thread until now...

I started with a 243. We told the idiot clerk we were mainly after turkeys and so we got 80 grain Win Power Points. Those things blew BIG holes in the deer, and thats probably exactly after the first few deer I ever shot, decided there was no way I was shooting shoulders anymore.
Eventually we worked up too 100s. They were much less destructive.
But either bullet, when shot into the ribcage(no shoulders), rarely let the deer get far, and very often was a bang flop.

Later in life I decided the 243 covered about anything small to middlin size that I needed it for but also decided that at some point I may be fortunate enough to hunt Elk or the like. My step up decided against an 06, and to a 300 wtby. The fibermark with handloads shot well enough, and I took deer, mule deer, nilgai with it over the years.

The one thing that was TOTALLY clear, the 300, I had ONE shot in all its life, that was a bang flop and that was a neck shot that I had no other choice in. IE the 243 would have too...( I am not counting head shots in this tally). All of the rest of the game I shot with the 300 ran. Most of it ran further than the 243 shots. A LOT of them acted like they were not even hit.

Does that make the 243 a better killer than the 300. Some would say so. Of course my take on it, they both do just fine. No flies on either. If I feel that I HAVE to make a long shot or ANY shot that is offered, I generally don't pack light. But often when that is not the case I pack light. Because light does the job just as well.

That being said, I've shot deer with everything from a 32-20 and mild cowboy loads, 45 acp a few times, and all the way up to a 416 Rem Mag and a 50 bmg. So I do have a hair of experience with multiple calibers.

I wont' go out on the limb that the 223 is better, but I certainly don't think that its worse or useless. And I don't hesitate to grab it or use it if its in my hands.... and with some bullets that would make lots of folks squeal with disgust.... put it int he right place, it'll work most of the time. But ANY bullet/caliber can fail. Thats just life.

Most sense I have heard around here in a while.

The .223 does NOT kill better than the larger bores!

Period, end of story, print.

My 'ole Win M70 .375 H&H was used to take a couple of large White Tail deer last season.

Factory Federal 270 GR cartridges were used for both..

Two 'bangs', two 'in and outs', two 'flops', two DRT deer.

Hard to imagine that any cartridge would have killed those deer any quicker....

(Also, in many States it is illegal to use anything smaller than a .24 caliber to take deer and other big game)..

Hard to imagine for those that haven't done it. Tell me about the 'Many states' you mention?


I'll help you ace. 35 states allow a 22cf for deer 7 don't, 7 are shotgun only. Apparently your as good with your definition of MANY as you are at having a clue.




35 to 7 (Legal vs. Not) & 7 shotgun only states

Yes States - AK, AL, AR, AZ, CA, ID, FL, GA, KY, LA, MI, MD, ME, MN, MO, MS, MT, NC, ND, NE, NH, NM, NV, NY, OK, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, WI, WV, VT

No States (rifle bigger than .22) - CT, CO, IA, KS, VA, WA, WY,

Shotgun only - DE, IN, IL, MA, NJ, OH, RI

Where is Hawaii on that list? You'se only got 49 states there Steelie.

[bleep] Hawaii

Damn straight!

HI:

Legal Hunting Animals and Weapons

When hunting with dogs where permitted, hunters may use any muzzeloading rifle with a minimum of 0.45 caliber bore diameter; any rifle using at least a 0.22 caliber magnum load or center fire cartridge; shotguns loaded with slugs or 00 or larger buckshot or spears or knives.
When hunting without dogs, hunters may use any rifle with a muzzle energy rating of 1,200 foot pounds or more; shotguns loaded with 00 or larger buckshot and muzzleloader rifles with a minimum of 0.45 caliber bore diameter (Breech loaders may not be used during muzzleloader only designated hunts).

When hunting with a bow, the following drawing tension requirements are applicable: Long bows must have a minimum of 40 pounds at a 28-inch draw; Recurved bows must have a minimum of 35 pounds; Compound bows must have a minimum of 30 pounds



So it looks like 223 would be in but other .22's not.

Uhhh...someone else want to take care of this one?

I don't think I can handle it....

I have never used a .223 for deer, but in TN, ANY centerfire rifle is legal...even a .17
.270 is as small as i have hunted deer with...

I guess you missed this part:

When hunting without dogs, hunters may use any rifle with a muzzle energy rating of 1,200 foot pounds or more; shotguns loaded with 00 or larger buckshot and muzzleloader rifles with a minimum of 0.45 caliber bore diameter (Breech loaders may not be used during muzzleloader only designated hunts).

Oh I got that part but am still puzzled.

1st, this looks like a specific states regs. Which state?
2nd, when using dogs, It sounds as if you can use a 22 mag rimfire. Is that true?
3rd, What defines a "magnum" load (pertaining to a .22 caliber "magnum" load).

I'll admit I misread your post the first time, it sounded like you were saying a .223 would be legal because it is over 22 cal, but were excluding other .22 cals such as the .218 bee or .219 zipper because they are "under" 22 cal. I thought you were implying that the 223 Rem was legal because it was a ".223" cal, and that other 22 CFs such as the .218 bee was not legal because it was ".218". I misread your quote, thinking you didn't realize all 22 CFs were .224", and now realize you were referring to the ME of specific 22 CFs. My apologies.

Just realized HI means Hawaii and not "hey guys". I guess that's what happens when you start cracking beers before your 9:00 class.

I apologize to Mike103 for my idiotness.

That combo has me laughing my ass off. What a way to start a weekend...grin

What about the other states remember "O" says there are 57...

States #51 through#57...its OK to use a .223....

Thanks Tom, I was looking at booking a hunt in one of those states. Now if I could just find them on the map...

I will probably try a .223 or a .22-250 this year on deer, for the first time.

I always paid attention to the experts who HAD tried them, and found them wanting. John Nosler tried it, and discouraged their use; see Nosler manual #4, in the .225 Winchester section. A friend swore by his .22-250 on Texas deer, then swore at it after losing some, and bought a .25-06.

Finn Agaard is the first gunwriter of note I remember, who tried the .223 on deer, with the then-new Trophy bonded bullets. He had good results. With modern bullets - in the past 10-15 years, they clearly do well, and these deer frankly aren't very big.

As far as doing better than other calibers - the .270 and .308 have both been 100% bang flops for me, so I don't see any odds of the .22 beating them. Slower calibers, like the .300 Savage, .30-30, .30-40? Yes deer seem to run a little farther when shot with those calibers, even when well hit.

I'm on a kick to find a cartridge that kills deer quickly, yet burns a minimal amount of powder, and a .22 centerfire seems a good one to try.

The 223 doesn't work better than larger bores. The rifle that you can shoot the most accurate is the one that kills the best because it is the one that gets the hits regardless of caliber. I don't care if its a puny 17hmr or a 338. Shot placement is king followed in lock step by the bullets ability to reach the intended target - be it hear, lung, brain, or spine.

Load a good bullet and shoot straight, I think you will like it...

I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I overheard someone say that "boolits matter more than headstamp"...

I killed a nice fat Michigan doe last fall with my 22 hi power Savage 1899. 70 grain hornady .227" at 2800 feet per second. Hit her high behind the right front shoulder and the bullet exited at the base of the neck opposite shoulder. The impact knocked her down, she kicked violently with the hind legs for a couple of seconds and somehow got up and pogo sticked once or twice and fell over dead. I have shot a lot of deer but have never seen that before, I have had several instant kills on deer that I have spined in the neck or high shoulder, but this deer was not spined, bullet took out the longs and went under the spine. It was a pretty amazing kill, that is my only experience with small caliber bullets. By the way they used to call the 22 Hi Power the "Imp", their is all sorts of historical reading on some amazing kills including Tigers in India with this cartridge. Not sure I would tackle something with claws and teeth like a Tiger, but a Michigan whitetail does not have a chance inside 100 yards with this round.

Sorry for taking soo long to look at this post again.

Thanks, I should have spelled out Hawaii instead of using HI.

Just wanted to post the rules of the last state not previously posted.

And yes they are very confusing.

Have carried a AR15 and Mini-14 loaded with Remington 55 grain SP's while deer hunting but never saw anything I wanted to shoot while carrying a .223.

Mike.