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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,652 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,652 Likes: 3 |
About time for this topic...
Every time it pops up a new group of idiots has moved in... It is good to know that the fire has you to show us the error of our ways. It's the way of disagreeing friend...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653 |
About time for this topic...
Every time it pops up a new group of idiots has moved in... It is good to know that the fire has you to show us the error of our ways. It's the way of disagreeing friend... It maybe your way of disagreeing, however I may disagree with what you say but would not call you an idiot because you have a different point of view. Just say'n. Wayne
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Here is one reason. Speed impresses deer more in my observations. ![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/deerrr/Yellow.jpg) Your turn JO I've said this before and your post affirms the speed issues.... I don't run speed just because... but faster usually drops em quicker... teh anecdote... teh old man here..... shot 220 swift, was a gun nut, 40whatever HP bullets, and probably way over pressure, shot all his deer in the flank. Read that guts. Family claims that he didn't lie.... not a one ever did anything but DRT. Not my personal choice but I"ve seen guts hit with slow, and guts hit with fast.... fast usually dumps em..... Fast in the vitals never did anything negative unless you were the deer. Other than destroy lots of good meat if you didn't pick your projectile correctly. A buddy has been running a 257 Roy last fall/winter.... said its the only round that he has ever shot when he doesn't need to trail deer basically... all rib shots and all ran, but just wonder over that direction and within 30 yards they are piled up...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945 |
I have let children use my 223s to shoot deer,mostly does and a few smallish bucks.
I moved my eight year old so up to a 243 and he killed a nice 4x4 whitetail with it this year.
In general,I think it's best to avoid extremes in deer cartridges.The two longest tracking jobs I've had were from a 35 Whelen with 225 grain partitons and a 243 with a fragile boat tail bullet.
The big whelen bullet zipped through like a solid,and the little boatail blew to smithereens on the shoulder of a little buck.
This leads to me mostly using guns 257 caliber through 30 caliber firing good bullets anywhere from 120 grains through 165 grains at a velocity of range of 2700-3200 fps.
This seems to be the sweet spot in terms of what works for me.
Not that you can't do it with bigger or smaller stuff,but I think avoiding extremes and staying with these deer cartridges and bullets is a pretty good plan.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,652 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,652 Likes: 3 |
About time for this topic...
Every time it pops up a new group of idiots has moved in... It is good to know that the fire has you to show us the error of our ways. It's the way of disagreeing friend... It maybe your way of disagreeing, however I may disagree with what you say but would not call you an idiot because you have a different point of view. Just say'n. Wayne Huh? Did you think I was calling you an idiot or something? If you're one of those who have never used a .223 on game yet opine about it's effectiveness then you may be correct in reposnding to my post like you did...grin... If you're not one of those folks, then we have no beef...grin... Adios amigo...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 23,064 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 23,064 Likes: 7 |
Spotshooter: "I" have never said that a 223 Remington round "works better than larger bores on Deer".
But I am quick to counter anyone who says the 223 Remington is NOT an efficient Deer/Antelope killer!
Like others here have posted I have seen MANY dozens of Deer and Antelope killed "in their tracks" with the 223 Remington AND various other 22 centerfires!
Now, I will get to the WHY portion of the 22 centerfires sometimes unappreciated or unacknowledged efficiency in lethality on Deer sized game.
I attribute this efficiency in lethality of the 22 centerfires to the explosive effects of the 22 centerfires projectiles in the heart/lungs area of the game.
They place/expend virtually all of their energy INSIDE the "boiler room" of Deer sized game.
Often times the projectiles of "larger bores" will pass through Deer sized game and the wounds incurred thusly atke a little longer to "kill".
I have gutted and cleaned dozens of 22 centerfire killed Deer and Antelope and when the bullet passes into the heart/lungs area the results are just catastrophic for the game!
They often die in their tracks.
Ease of shooting (or lack of recoil) may also play a part in the shooters ability to place their bullets in the proper place (heart/lungs area)!
Be on the lookout for ANYONE that tries to deny that the 223 Remington is a VERY efficient caliber for Deer - any such person is ignorant (turdlike!) and is to be viewed with great skepticism and disdain!
Long live the 223 Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 667
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 667 |
The fact of the matter is lots of folks on here have killed a pile of game with 22 CFs and have complete confidence in them. That's enough "proof" for them and me as well.
While I have not looked for it, I doubt you'll find much "scientific data" on the issue, just lots of magazine articles and posts from hunters using 22 CFs for deer and such.
There's nothing wrong with using bigger rounds if that gives you confidence. I have used 375 H&H and a 340 Wby for whitetails as well as a 22-250. I have never seen a difference in their performance and with a variety of bullets. They either fall on the spot or run maybe 50 yards. You seem like a clear thinking person so I will respond in a civil manner. If you will look back on my posts you will see that I NEVER said that the 223 would not kill a deer. I gave my opinion that I didn't think that it would kill deer any better and probably not as well. I offered an opinion which was what the OP asked for. I didn't start the dispute. Steelhead felt the need to give me a zinger over my opinion. He is the one who claims that they kill BETTER. If you want to accept that opinion, so be it. I prefer to use my good judgement and find his opinion questionable. If he can produce factual data I will apologize and yield to him. If not, for many of the reasons that anyone can feel free to read again, I'm not buying what he's trying to sell. I'm not out to convince anyone of anything. For anyone who thinks that he is correct, they better be shooting a 223 or have one on order or else they are carrying inferior equipment according to him. As I expected I'm getting the haters ganging up on me because I had the nerve to call into question a Campfire legend. I believe from what little time I've been on this board they would be called "ball lickers". I'm still learning the jargon but I figure that by the time this thread is over I will get the whole list of condesending terminology. Post counts don't impress me and neither does his aggressive style. But that's just me. He seems to be real popular here. Good for him. Bad for people who don't choose to worship him. As a former veteran myself, thanks for your service to our great nation. PS: You might also want to learn about paragraph breaks I'll start doing that when you start adding periods to the end of your sentences. I've grown tired of your juvenile behavior so this will be my last post on this subject. My apologies to the OP for allowing a very good thread to turn into a stupid back and forth over nothing. Sorry.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
ruraldoc,
Can you describe the bullet placement of the the 35 Whelen bullet that caused you such a long tracking job please?
It must have been a poor hit IMO. Any deer I have shot has been awful easy to find. The trail is very short and lots of blood,
even Hellen Keller could find them.
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,270 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,270 Likes: 11 |
I've killed quite a number of deer with the .223 as well as the .222 and 22-250. They are all quick killers and quite lethal at the shorter distances where velocity is still high. Get out past 150 yards where velocity has fallen off and their effectiveness definitely falls off. Beyond that, I'll take a larger cal. every time. Most effective deer cal. overall ? Not hardly !
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945 |
ruraldoc,
Can you describe the bullet placement of the the 35 Whelen bullet that caused you such a long tracking job please?
It must have been a poor hit IMO. Any deer I have shot has been awful easy to find. The trail is very short and lots of blood,
even Hellen Keller could find them.
whelennut The deer was quartering toward me and I hit him where I intended,at the junction of his neck and shoulder at about the middle of his boddy. The bullet went through both lungs and exited ahead of the diaphram through the short ribs. Small hole in,small hole out,with a small wound channel between the holes. Too much bullet on a 170 pound whitetail buck IMO. The blood trail was mighty skimpy but we did find the deer who went about 100 yards. I much prefer the 200 grain Hornady in the Whelen on deer.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 97
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 97 |
There are times when you may be caught out with a 222, 223 or 22-250 - and with a good bullet and correct placement, they will certainly take a deer cleanly. All you need is confidence in your abilities.
I would normally opt for a larger calibre when chasing deer , but like I said - the 22 centrfires can do the job when there isnt anything else on hand - unless you like throwing rocks at them!!
7mm
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293 |
Why do you think a 223 works better than larger bores on deer ?
Larger bores or larger boars?
Something clever here.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,971 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,971 Likes: 4 |
[quote=Spotshooter]
Why do you think a 223 works better than larger bores on deer ? I don't. 'Nuff said.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
The fact of the matter is lots of folks on here have killed a pile of game with 22 CFs and have complete confidence in them. That's enough "proof" for them and me as well.
While I have not looked for it, I doubt you'll find much "scientific data" on the issue, just lots of magazine articles and posts from hunters using 22 CFs for deer and such.
There's nothing wrong with using bigger rounds if that gives you confidence. I have used 375 H&H and a 340 Wby for whitetails as well as a 22-250. I have never seen a difference in their performance and with a variety of bullets. They either fall on the spot or run maybe 50 yards. You seem like a clear thinking person so I will respond in a civil manner. If you will look back on my posts you will see that I NEVER said that the 223 would not kill a deer. I gave my opinion that I didn't think that it would kill deer any better and probably not as well. I offered an opinion which was what the OP asked for. I didn't start the dispute. Steelhead felt the need to give me a zinger over my opinion. He is the one who claims that they kill BETTER. If you want to accept that opinion, so be it. I prefer to use my good judgement and find his opinion questionable. If he can produce factual data I will apologize and yield to him. If not, for many of the reasons that anyone can feel free to read again, I'm not buying what he's trying to sell. I'm not out to convince anyone of anything. For anyone who thinks that he is correct, they better be shooting a 223 or have one on order or else they are carrying inferior equipment according to him. As I expected I'm getting the haters ganging up on me because I had the nerve to call into question a Campfire legend. I believe from what little time I've been on this board they would be called "ball lickers". I'm still learning the jargon but I figure that by the time this thread is over I will get the whole list of condesending terminology. Post counts don't impress me and neither does his aggressive style. But that's just me. He seems to be real popular here. Good for him. Bad for people who don't choose to worship him. As a former veteran myself, thanks for your service to our great nation. PS: You might also want to learn about paragraph breaks I'll start doing that when you start adding periods to the end of your sentences. I've grown tired of your juvenile behavior so this will be my last post on this subject. My apologies to the OP for allowing a very good thread to turn into a stupid back and forth over nothing. Sorry. Only move you had...................................................
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,893
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,893 |
I can't spell... Deal with it...
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580 |
I have seen little difference on deer in terms of terminal performance when shooting them with the following:
30-30
270Win
223Rem
30Rem (old slide-action rifle from the first decade of the 20th century)
None. Nada. Zip. Zer0.
Then again, I never had to shoot a deer twice with any of them, and I don't take shots I can't make.
YMMV, as it isn't the arrow, it's the indian......
(FWIW, the only real "tracking" I've ever had to do was after shooting a decent sized buck through the heart at about 10 yards with a 270. Finding the deer was rather easy, as it blew out the far shoulder exiting and the deer was spurting blood far enough that I passed on the 2nd shot and just waited a half hour in the stand then went and got him)
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293 |
Why do you think a 223 works better than larger bores on deer ?
Larger bores or larger boars? I'm just sayin on account of my A.D.D. I can get hung up on little distractions like this.... Larger boars on deer.... I've ruined this topic for myself.
Something clever here.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
[quote=Spotshooter]
Why do you think a 223 works better than larger bores on deer ? I don't. 'Nuff said. Plus one. If "speed" is the thing an '06 will push a 130 mighty fast... just sayin'. I do think it's cool that folks use and report on them, and I'll concede that they appear to work more reliably than I'd have thought possible. And Scott's point about seeing the hit is a good one. But there's too many ways that virtually any regular deer cartridge beats .223.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
What ways would those be GUESSER?
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,499
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,499 |
Some of us hunters make mistakes, some of us during the course of taking a shot encounter unexpected events, some of us make sure we carry a bit more than bare minimum for when the inevitable happens. But that's just a little bit of every day genius(common sense). But I guess planning for perfection, everytime, is what passes for real world around here. I really like this site most of the time, but some of these pissing matches are just tiring. Don't change your mind, no matter what, and argue till God cometh.
Tell me the odds of putting grease on the same pancake? I Know they are there, well ice and house slippers. -Kawi
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