Would any of you even consider a whitetail hunt on free ranging deer with an outfitter with a draw blood policy? In other words draw blood and aren't able to recover the deer and you're done hunting, pack your stuff and leave camp. I'm not talking about a high fence operation here rather free ranging fair chase deer that are property of the state.

Yes.

Yes,
What is wrong with that policy?

Yes. No brainer.

No problem for me.

Between the OPs last two posts I'm guessing there's a story from this weekend (probably Saturday) that's not been told.

So you're O.K. if in spite of your best efforts the deer is not recovered you're done?

Absolutely!!

Shoot better.....

I can see if from both perspectives. Sucks if you are an outfitter and you are losing game to wounding loss. Sucks if you shell out money and a freak deal happens and you lose one.

I was in a camp in Saskatchewan one time where the outfit let a guy hunt again after they'd done an exhaustive search and were satisfied the animal lived.

One of the other reasons they do this is they've likely buggered one, if not more, stand locations (if we're talking whitetails) looking for a deer.

Did you know this going in?

Alaska had the requirement on black bears when I lived there. You draw blood but don't recover it counts to you bag limit.

I bet most outfitters didn’t start out with this rule, but after lost wounded poorly shot animal after lost wounded poorly shot animal, the need arose. Great rule in my opinion.

Yes......because you more then likely killed that deer

And you know this how????????????

No problem from here.

No problem with the policy. Had a buddy that lost his archery Elk. Put his bow away and found the animal 2 days later. Recovered the head, the meat was almost gone. Bear and dogs had almost finished it off. I respected his action.

A young man hunted on our property 2 seasons 2014 and 2015

Sucker shot a small buck both years and claimed to have lost them only to kill a bigger on later that same day.

This happened 2 years in a row........on both occasions he found deer #1 and snuck it home to NJ with no tag.

He's not allowed back

No problem at all with it. I wouldnt allow a hunter to keep shooting up game.
GreggH

Only policy to have with folks like you paying to hunt....

You draw blood, you're done. Shoot better or go do a DIY. Don't blame the outfit. Blame yourself.

Yes!

And by the way..............."Long range hunters" should be held to the same standard.

When I shot long ranges I was fortunate and I never wounded or missed anything, but I pushed my luck way too far, and I think most of the "Long Range Hunting" stuff today is only adding leverage to the anti-gun anti hunting people. I "grew up" and saw it for what it was. I don't condemn it because I have no right to do so. I made a lot of long shot myself. But I never asked anyone to work for free either.

If I shot at any deer, elk antelope or anything else and I wounded it, and was unable to recover it, I would feel a moral obligation to punch my tag, and I think the same is true for any real hunter. We see the films and many hunters see them, think to themselves "I'm a good shot, so I can do that". And many can. Until something goes a little bit wrong. I have seen it many times and many shots were from friends who I KNOW are excellent marksmen, but when you push things WAAAAY out there you get into variables you can't control and sometimes can't predict.

Also keep in mind that the films you see are the ones that you are shown. You do NOT SEE the ones that get away. Most of those are erased and deleted. Or they will tell you they missed clean, but at super long range you can't know that for sure. Bullets at 800-1200 yards do not have the same effect as they do at 100-400 yards. But those animals die too. The "anti's" know it and will use it against us.

My remarks are not a condemnation but more a plea for some deep thought as to what we are doing and why. The only "why" I can think of is some kind of bragging right, not a demonstration of marksmanship. Marksmanship could be better demonstrated on targets which don't die a painful death and get away, and don't give Anti-Hunting people leverage to regulate us further. I used to shoot 1000 yards a lot and sometimes I still do, but for the last 20 years or so I have had a policy that I will not shoot over 500 meters at game, and in 95% of the cases I won't shoot over 350 because there is no reason to. I am not such a poor hunter that I can't get closer. I turned down a 437 yard shot at an elk just 5 days ago. The body angle was wrong and the shooting position was a bit unstable. I am pretty sure I could have done it, but pretty sure to me is NOT the same thing as SURE!

Now as a man with MANY years of experience as a guide I would not make a "draw blood rule" hard and fast. There would probably be exceptions. But that should the the call of the guide, and it should be final. If for example, you had a scope failure or a gun malfunction, and you didn't try some shot that was unreasonable or risky, the guide might make a judgement call and let you try again with another gun, but it should be his call. It's his time after he does his job correctly the 1st time, so a 2nd time is all time he gives you as a gift, not something you paid for. Demanding any time from any worker for free is not reasonable. If your boss wanted to have you give him 1-4 days of your work for free would you do it? If a carpenter was paid to build a shed and did so, and did it well, with everything done exactly as ordered would it be reasonable to demand another shed for free?

These things should be discussed BEFORE you make a contract. If you and he can't agree, don't hire him. It may be best for you to go it alone if such things are not to your liking. There's nothing wrong with your opinion anymore than there is with his.

But when money is paid it's no longer just opinions. Now it's a contract, and specific performance is outlined both by the guide and by you too.

Talk over the details first and write them down. Ask the outfitter and guide if he is selling you X many days of his time OR if he is selling you an opportunity for a good shot at game. If he agrees to sell you the days then you have reason to want another chance and another and another, until the days are used up
If on the other hand he is selling the opportunity and you get that opportunity and mess up the shot, you'd have no reason to complain.
If a guide tells you to shoot and you are not comfortable with that shot tell him so. And THAT should be discussed in full before the hunt. Any guide that tells you to shoot and then want to quit you if you don't shoot is not a man you should hire. I have had clients hold their fire when I thought the shot was easy, but that's what I was hired for and if the client holds fire I know he's the boss and that's what he paid me for. I don't get to vote and I accept that. He can use up the time I sold to him as He wants.

But would an animal and let it get away........now there is one more animal I can't guide the next hunter to. That's not the same as holding fire.
When blood is drawn the guide is the boss, not the hunter. Ask questions and get references. You want a guide that is good at his job and one of those jobs is tracking and following blood trails. But most importantly, practice your shooting and take shot you KNOW you can make.

Now if we can just get bow hunters to punch tags for non-recovered deer.............

Done hunting yes, leave camp and accommodations...no

If they're on an outfitted hunt, as the OP described, they would be held to same standard.

As far as I know, that's how most outfitters run things. It's the law in most states and outfitters can lose their licenses if they disobey it. Also, the client pays the outfitter to help him hunt. There has to be a standard for the outfitter's performance, and in this case that standard is that the client gets a shot at an animal. You can't hold the outfitter responsible for a client's bad shooting.

That said, I could see the outfitter making an exception out of the goodness of his heart if something unusual happened, say if a pack of dogs or coyotes pushed the animal onto land where hunters had no right to enter in pursuit. I could also see that same guide making you wait until everyone else in camp had tagged out before you got another chance.

Frankly, I'd be suspicious of an outfitter than let clients wound as much game as they wanted.


Okie John

Even if I wasn’t guided i wouldn’t keep shooting if i had already put a bullet in something. That’s poor taste in the ethical and moral department to wound and move on to try it again.
Shot a deer on Kodiak once but before we got to it a brown bear ran thru and grabbed it up. Punched that tag even though never laid hands on it.

Sounds fair to me, wound an animal, it counts as a kill. It’s that way on our lease.

I have never done a guided hunt, but isn't this a pretty standard rule?

I went on an elk hunt with those rules.

Every hunter should have that mindset. Otherwise, I think it's called slob hunters.

Why would you be hunting instead of looking for the deer you shot anyhow?

But, yes, that rule would be more than fine by me.

Never been an outfitter, but have been severely frustrated by some buddies that I helped with their hunts. Such a policy would have saved me days of effort.

I know a couple of outfitters here in Montana that take bow hunters.If they wound an elk or deer,then that is their tag. It may make the hunters think about taking marginal shots.

Done hunting yes, leave camp, no. Do they have to leave camp after successfully tagging out? don't understand that part.

As any outfitter, what's their #1 complaint about client hunters, bet you more often than not, it's shooting ability. If it's a western hunt, probably toss up shooting ability of physical condition.

If you've paid thousands for the trip, you'd better reconsider that 600 yard shot that so many brag about. Be a hunter and get closer. Pass on the trick shot that has wounded so many animals.

I should have put a caveat on my initial response. I can't see being made to leave camp.

Fixed it for you.....

Absolutely! I'm the same way on the ground I own and will hold my kids to that standard regarding their one buck tag.

I also agree with the folks that one shouldn't have to leave the camp/accomodations, but no more hunting is fine by me.

You going to regale us with the tale that spurned this flurry of posting activity?

I hope your disappointment with the outfitter didn't affect your tip to the guide. He did his job, you messed up yours.
Tips are an important part of their pay, don't screw him because you missed.

Don’t be cheap!

I don't think the OP got the initial response he was anticipating.

. Hmm. still seen more lost deer to gun shots than archery shots. but then I hunted with a higher class of archers IMHO. Arrows kill REALLY well. And when they do just clip one, they don't kill em slowly from infection, they heal quick and clean.

Of course good archers know this.

But I'm good with blood and you are done. I just don't shoot anymore unless I'm over confident on the shot. I'd rather em walk than my wound something.

Do y'all count crippled/lost ducks in your limit?

Yep. I love to shoot my bow, but I don't hunt with it for this very reason. I've got two buds at church that always claim to have made killing shots on deer that can't be recovered.

On my Moose Hunt my Guide ask me what Rifle I was shooting when I told him a 6.5-06 he looked at me funny. I explained it was basically a .270 he asked what scope. I told him a fixed 6 power he grinned and said "We are going to get along just fine" He asked how far I felt comfortable shooting and I said 50 yds. He laughed and said he would see what he could do. I killed my Moose at 50 yds off hand with a head shot as that is all I was offered. He about flipped out he said he has never had a hunter make a shot that quick and off hand he said most want the shooting sticks and take forever. I said I wanted the sticks and more time but it wasn't offered. Later made a 225 yd shot on a wolf off of a rest. He said his biggest gripe is guys spend all the money to hunt buy the best gear and the biggest guns and scopes and then can't make a simple 100 yd shot at a standing moose with or without a rest. Other 2 hunters in camp were using .300 win mags and big Swarvorski scopes that topped out at 18x. One shot his bull in the ass because he had his scope on 18x the guide had to finish it. The other wounded a bull on the last day and they never found it.

A local plantation has a policy that if a hunter pulls the trigger on a buck...and the buck is not found...it costs him $1000 dollars. This plantation is large, is managed for trophy buck and has been for many years, and routinly produces 150 + class bucks. Hunters know that going in...it has been proven to be an effective cure for "buck fever".

If that's the outfitter's policy, then that's his policy. You are free to hire him or not.

Does no good to bitch about it.

yes

I agree with the done hunting but don't have to leave camp group.

If you hunt a lot and pull the trigger a lot eventually you will miss and/or wound game and not recover it.

The animals I know I hit well enough to kill but never found bother me to this day.

There’s more to this post.

Gunwizard musta paid for a hunt. Wounded a deer and it poured rain before he could find it. And had to pay, but thinks he shouldn’t because it washed the trail away.... then went back to camp and got drunk and had to leave. 🤣


Then someone at camp. Successful, felt bad for the raving lunatic ranting about i had good blood, and gave him a hindquarter.

Hence the cost to process thread. 🤣😂

No question about it, draw blood= punch your tag. Then you search for the animal until you no longer can.


mike r

How many deer do you feel like you deserve to shoot? Since this is a what if thread.....what if you shoot two deer that your guid isn't able to recover for you? Bright side is you'll save on paying someone to process your meat for you.

Exactamundo!


Number one complaint with guides Ive been with is clients cant shoot. And if you watch the others in camp, you'll see why....

No problem with that policy at all..indeed I prefer it..It separates some of the wheat from the chaff..

I think it's a good rule as well.

As far as the wounding rate for gun vs archery, one study found the wounding rate by archers was 50% higher than gun hunters. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3781397

Done hunting...yeah....leave camp ....no Somehow, I don't think I'd much like to hunt somewhere where they let bozos shoot up all the deer (or whatever) they want....that's what it would amount to.

"bozos shoot up all the deer (or whatever) they want....that's what it would amount to."

C'mon, man, do you really believe that statement?

I'm generally a conformist, I guess it's the Army in me. But, I have a contrarian viewpoint on this topic.

Unfortunate things happen. Do I think it's fair some outfitter, or worse yet, some internet armchair hunter, to take some morally superior ethical high-ground and pull a hunter from what may be a once in a lifetime hunt? Absolutely not. Seems kind of pretentious to me.

Of course, like anytime you shoot at game, every effort should be made to find the animal. But the onus should be on the outfitter to find the shot game. If he cannot, I would presume that it was merely a grazing shot, of sorts, and allow the hunter another opportunity to fulfill what may be his/her dream hunt.

I also wouldn't hunt with an outfitter who financially "penalizes" a hunter for shooting a racked buck whose worth is valued below some man-made "score." It's your hunt. It's the outfitter's job to provide a service, i.e., to put you on game.

Here's the disclaimer, when I pull the trigger, [bleep] dies.

i'm not paying any outfitter to hunt any animal. sorry but i'm very happy with the animals i hunt at home.

How long does your deer hunting season last (with firearm) there in VA? Isn't it like 7 days?

Depends. ML: 2 weeks Regular firearms: 2 weeks to about 7, depending on the county. Different bag limits and either-sex rules apply as well depending on county and whether you hunt on public or private land. Takes a bit of study to figure it all out. Some areas have Earn-a-buck rules and antler restrictions too.

That’s why you shoot the animal in the shoulders. They are dead right there.

I think every outfitter I've used has a policy that if you draw blood then you pay. Every effort will be made to recover the deer, including a tracking dog (on your dime). I'm sure they would let you come back if the deer lives and shows back up. I've never heard of one saying you're done, get out. Ask them about how well the average client can shoot and you'll get a better picture of the reason behind the policy.

Why hunt with a guide? All your doing is shooting an animal you were led by the nose too by someone else..lol.....No thanks, that aint for me....Hb

rifles season goes for 2 weeks from Nov 18th-Dec 2nd West of the Blue Ridge and last much longer East of the Blue Ridge, hence the very low chance of killing a quality buck.....Not to mention a 2 week early muzzleloader season that runs from Nov 4th -Nov 17th, and with 2 or 3 buck tags for every hunter a buck has mighty little chance of ever reaching maturity in Virginia ........Hb

Yep, the state seems to want quantity or quality these days.
I'm on the southern side of Montgomery County[2 week rifle] but can drive 5 miles south to Floyd co and gain 2 more weeks of rifle.
This was also Montg. co's first EAB season.

It's a big world - you should consider experiencing some of it.

As he has aged, a friend of mine started signing up for deeded land guided deer/elk here in Oregon. I'll admit the guy is not the most composed in the world when game appears, and he got what he thought was a rude awakening. On his first outing he missed a shot at a running elk and the guide immediately cleared out to go work with other clients. Seems the fine print guaranteed him a shot, so the outfitter had fulfilled his end of the bargain. He was allowed to continue hunting, but had to use his rigs and equipment.

I'm surprised that folks were allowed to continue on their own given the potential of getting in the way of other paying clients.

Given my experience with him on standing game, my response was "one should never have tried on a running elk to begin with."

Still no full accounting of how this all happened from the OP...

I have that policy on everything from $2500 antelope hunts to insanely expensive sheep hunts. We have a limited resource that we manage extensively and we make it abundantly clear that drawing blood means that’s your animal and we will hunt for that animal for the duration of your hunt.

I’m curious as to what the story is behind the post....

You and me both!

seems chitty marksmanship and butthurt go hand in hand.....

Hmm.. we trailed for 3 hours with my dog on a shoulder shot deer last sunday night.. that deer is still walking... had he punched him in the lungs in the crease the buck would have been dead and we would not have even been called...

I do. Most don't. If I wing one and it sails off, thats a dead bird whether I find it or not. Same with other birds.

I"ve seen a warden issue a ticket to a guy for not doing it to. I"m not overly happy with that, I don't think it was right personally.

But ethics are a personal thing.

Wonder how many folks have found a dead bird ... duck, probably close to 3/4 mile away, but with the help of my lab obviously, actually it was wounded but we recovered it. My buddy says you'll never find him... LOL watch us. We've managed geese even further out. I"ve wasted hours of time according to one buddy, looking for bird a few times, ones I KNOW had to be in a certain area..... Warden even complimented me once, as they had watched with a spotting scope...

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

LOL !

If you never found him, How do you know he was hit in the shoulder?

if you didn't recover it, how do you know it was hit in the shoulder?

Yes.

My brother has a co-worker who bow hunts our family farm. Every year he woulds at least one buck and just keeps hunting. Makes me ill.

Could only imagine how happy you would be Scotty if you killed something someone else did point out for you.

Rat-killer; I think I know what you're trying to say, but, ***SHOCKER ALERT*****, you phugged it up.

Not much of a waterfowl hunter but I count upland game birds that I drop towards my limit.

You knew what I meant and that’s all that matters. Can’t kill with out tipping the guide LOL. But I’m sure your deer stand is in a good spot.

LOL. Do you wish to compare photo albums on DIY deer, puddin'? Because that's pretty much all I do.
And for posterity, I was referring to animals you can't hunt without a guide - particularly AK (or Canada - you can ask Judman about that). So let's see your DIY brown bears and sheep too while we're at it.

C'mon sweet pea, you can start.

On a whitetail hunt.

Trying to find em will disturb the area way more than shooting at them

Especially an exhaustive search

Versus an archery shot.

Ok I will start here with I go outside at least once a day. (How’s the HOA ) LOL. No guide was needed and the dog was laying by the woodstove.
PS Judman is rich! us poor white trash hunting hicks could not even dream of having money to hunt with. LMMFAO
Scott you are the coolest guy on the fire. Keep up the great work.
If I payed a guide. 🧐. Laughing

Just as I suspected. It's all you've got, buttercup.
Maybe you can run over to the gunwriter's forum and go passive-aggressive on JB again - you know, like you did before you edited your post last night.
Your long-running campaign to claim top billing for campfire's biggest prick is admirable - at least you're consistent.

Difference between you and JB is he has gun knowledge. You just wish you did.
He is also a pretty decent guy.

Back to you scooter what is in your opinion the most comfortable tree stand.
Do it yourself sitting in trees. Lol. Keep up the good work.

PS
You keep calling me a prick I might end up not hating you. LOL.

Freddy had a tough time growing up in an incest household.

Seems to me outfitters that have that policy in place would get a better quality hunter which equals better bucks which equals better opportunity and the list goes on and on

Says the guy with a 1/4” between his eyes.

What is the bag limit where you were?

I would hope the outfitter made the policy clear during the booking process. If so, then I'd be fine with it. If not, what does state law say? Bottom line for me is knowing what the rules are going in.

Draw blood, punch your tag. That should be the rule for all hunting.

I never took Gunswizard to be a dick but apparently I was wrong. Sent a PM looking for the backstory as I’m always open to hearing differing opinions or viewpoints and as somebody that makes a living in the industry I certainly want to hear what customers don’t like so I can apply that knowledge to my own operation. He would have none of it

I asked what the backstory was and he replies with “ I asked a question, no story nothing to see here as they say so move along.“

I then asked what his policy is for wounding deer as I responded to his question on this post and I was curious. His response... “what part of move along don't you understand?”

Wounds ain't no big thing. Killing and not finding is. Deer are plenty capable of wounding themselves quite often out in the real woods...

Gunswizard needs to be on ignore for most IMHO.

Now I’d just like to know who the outfitter was that kicked that douchebag Gunswizard out of camp? His complaint is now a ringing endorsement of the guy

Guided hunts gives you access to hunts you would otherwise not have access to.

In some places it is not even legal for a non resident to hunt unguided, In some places it would just be impossible to create your own infrastructure, In some places it would be too risky to hunt solo, ... etc.

For me, I'd rather have hunted the Caucasus, Taurus, Alps, Carpathians, Tien Shan, Pamir, Altai ... mountains, guided, than not hunt those fabulous places.

But I notice that some people tend to look over the shoulder at hunters that go on guided hunts, not seeming to understand that these hunters may hunt solo as much or more than they do, and then hunt guided as much or more than they do unguided, too.

Also, they do not seem to understand that hunting guided does not necessarily mean sitting in a heated blind with a docen deer around a feeding machine and having your guide (?) point at the one he wants you to shoot. There can be much more than that and you can be participative and help saddle horses, set up camps, cook, glass for game, skin, load the meat, ... etc.

I am not sure if these people represent the fox's role in Aesop's fable the Fox & the Grapes.

Just my thinking.

This thread was posted the same day as this thread:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt.../searching-for-wounded-deer#Post12409849

Coincidence?

That requirement spread to Kodiak brown bears quite a few years ago.

I have no problem with the requirement, but I do with having it unequally enforced on all big game.

Interesting context...

To risky to hunt solo? Well I have a wife and a couple of backpacks but I digress.

But my real question... whats your opinion of the draw blood policy.

He's a source of interesting context. Especially his take on what constitutes a proper chambering for deer.

Oh, believe me, I have seen lots of his posts! Most are in lined to crack me up!

Yes, in my opinion, some hunts are too risky to do solo. Not that a pronghorn can shoot back at you... I am basically thinking in late season mountain hunts above 8,000ft. I just got back from the Caucasus and that can be a good example of what I mean: too remote, too treacherous, and too hard conditions to do alone. Even guided, at some stage during hunts like this, one who is there will think what the hell is he doing there!

And my opinion on the draw blood policy is that there is no other way of doing it. It can be unfair at times, and under some very special circumstances I would understand some discretionality in its application form the outfitter/guide, but the undebatable starting point needs to be that once you draw blood the hunt is over. Otherwise, everything woul be at risk of becoming an unorganized mess. May I ask what do You think?

I guess I am strange. If I were to wound an animal and not recover, that tag is spent IMO. Same goes for birds, small game, etc. I call that being a sportsman.

Pahntr760,

Don't they HAVE blood-trailng dogs in SD?? = I see little reason for losing wounded game, as around here there are any number of such well-trained canines/handlers "for rent".

yours, tex

Growing up learning to jump shoot elk in the spruce-fir elk jungles, it was quite frustrating as a guide when hunters could not bring their rifle to bear quickly (as in entirely unfamiliar with their rifle), having their scope on high magnification, and being so startled by elk crashing way in the timber they would literally take a step or two backwards (actually, when elk blow up 30 yds away it can make a guy jump!). Try as I might to "coach" them that they were more likely to encounter elk less than a 100 yds rather than 300-400 yds, clients were often totally umprepared to make those close, quick shots.

I learned to accept it over time.............

That sounds like a fun way to go.

A friend "shot" a black bear, very close and unexpectedly. Trying to wrinkle out where the bear went was tough, in part because he had no idea where he was standing when he shot, let alone where the bear was.

Finally figured out his location from the magazine-load of unfired ammo laying in a neat little pile where it had been ejected while he was "shooting" the bear.

In the business world, they say sometimes you have to fire the customer.

I have no idea. I have never needed said services out here. They could have come in handy in PA a time or two though.

I hunt on an island where the ground is rough, steep, and slippery, so there's a good chance of falling and spraining/breaking a leg. It's usually 40 degrees and pouring rain during hunting season, so if you get hurt, the risk of hypothermia is very high. And while this place is literally in sight of a good-sized town, the water moves too fast for small boats to cross the channel quickly, there are only old logging trails for rescue crews to get to you--not that you'd be near one of them anyway, the trees are too tall for helicopters to land, and the cell/radio coverage is crappy at best.

I've hunted it alone, but it's not a good idea.


Okie John

okie john,

I now have heard of a small/unidentified island that I won't be hunting upon. - CHUCKLE.

yours, tex

Same thing, just completely eliminate any communication short of a Sat phone... and add big bears...

What’s really funny is that I bought something from Gunswizard last year. He sent the pics over the holiday weekend and I was spending time with family. That didn’t stop him from sending me another email letting me know that he “would like the courtesy of a reply”

So gunswizard expects the courtesy of a reply but will tell a guy basically to [bleep] off when a question he doesn’t like is asked

Whoever kicked his ass out of camp is a hero

Any empties?

Two other very good examples

No empties... just a handful of unfired ammo.