I watch these shows on TV and they see a buck they like until they realize "it's only 3 1/2 , it needs another year". I'm probably just old fashioned but when I see a buck I want I don't even try to figure out how old it might be. But you see it more and more. The TV hunters spend a lot of time talking about how to age a buck on the hoof. The whole thing just doesn't appeal to me.

ok

I've never tried to guess a deer's age. I'm a meat hunter, and it just doesn't matter.

ME EATHER IF IT IS LEAGLE AN I WANT TO KILL IT I WILL F SHOW HUNTING

I live in the Adirondack Mountains, where you're lucky to see a buck during the whole season. I'm with you on the subject, and you'll receive a lot of backlash from the food plot hunters, but you seem to have made this post to just piss people.

Farmers turning deer into livestock. If they hunted public land here they'd change their tune quick or they wouldn't punch many tags.

best eating deer is a 1.5 y/o spike in my opinion. i got a wall full of 6 inch spikes in my camp going back 70 years. these fuggen tv shows with the bone collectors and age appropriate bucks make me sad for the sport. ya i'm a dinosaur and don't give a fugg. to each his own i suppose.

No I'm not looking to piss anybody off. I'm not even saying I'm right. Sometimes I start threads on here just so people can come on and tell me why I'm wrong. It lets me see things through a different perspective.

I can see that a lot of hunters don't care about such things, but I'd fall into the category that does care about maturity in the animals I hunt. I hunted MT this past fall and probably glassed 3-400 mule deer bucks before finding a deer that was "mature" enough to interest me. I do a lot of brown bear hunting and have passed a lot of 9' class bears because they were immature bears. When I lived in the L48 killing a buck wasn't a challenge; killing a mature buck was another thing altogether. As for eating, aged venison is a different beast and mature deer can be very flavorful if cared for appropriately and hung in a meat locker, but I realize that most deer aren't aged properly so younger deer are no doubt much more tender to the average hunter.

I should add that hunting shows are slightly less interesting to me than watching Oprah reruns...

74 TV shows are canned... No one sees that many deer in a normal year, I seldom watch deer hunting shows .. Coyote stuff once in a while..

Mike, I'll add my observations of SO CALLED hunting shows.

You CAN NOT age accurately by sight. Yes there are indicators of age but indicators are all they are.

I've seen very mature WT called 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 when it's obvious they are OLDER. First off, I think the TV shows are trying to convince WATCHERS that 'mature' is really what we call old or older bucks. I killed a big, heavy horned 6 pt. (not a big rack but HEAVY) in 2013 or 2014 that was an OLD buck. Mass does NOT come before age.
He had a LONG face (nose) and gray hair on his head. I don't recall his weight but I weigh all bucks whole, because I want to know their live weight.

I have pix but am unable to post them currently. You can clearly see his LONG head (nose to crown).

On UNCONTROLLED land what you or I let walk, the NEXT hunter probably will shoot. I have NOTHING to gain except to lose killing a nice buck if I let him walk. 406_SBC is right on about AGING and HANDLING as it relates to taste.


The ONLY accurate way to age a buck is MOLAR examination and then it is not EXACT.

Per age, the only rule I have is Don't Shoot Fawns (dinks), Every button or very short spiked buck you kill is an Antler buck you'll never see nor kill. I tell anyone who hunts w/me-- Don't Shoot Fawns.

Jerry

I am lucky enough where I live there are a lot of whitetail to watch.

They have such little pressure they are not terribly nocturnal.

It is fun and informative to try and age them.

However it seems very few are older than 3.5 years.

The older ones must become nocturnal. I don't use game cameras......better start I guess.

I dont watch many so called hunting shows as I think for the most part they are a joke, there are very few actual hunters on these shows. As far as only shooting older bucks, I only shoot trophy (to me) bucks that I think will score 150"+ but I have nothing against the guy that wants to shoot the first spike that walks by.....If your happy I'm happy......Hb

its all about the way the hunt unfolds to me. I kill what ever I want. going meat hunting in a few.

Good luck......Hb

Aging can be tough sometimes. We try to let the small basket racks and spindly racks go, as well as the ones with lean racehorse bodies (the traits generally coincide). If there's much obvious mass on top or a chunky body profile, odds are good we are going to try to get him in the scope and will probably pull the trigger. We don't see a lot of "mature" bucks each season and they generally only give us one or maybe two chances in the daylight. That being said, a person should shoot the deer that makes them happy. I still love tagging a big-bodied doe for the freezer, even though there are no horns to look at.

I really don't have much time to check ID.
If I get a 3-5 second window I am lucky.

Hunting should largely be about what makes you happy. If that means a 1 1/2 year old "meat buck" then more power to you but don't complain about someone that wants to let a deer get some age on it.

The regs where I live allow two bucks a season and three does a day for 60 days. I find it hard to swallow when someone shoots a young buck because "his freezer was about empty".

As for the hunting shows-for the most part they are ridiculous. No sense getting riled up over them, just don't watch.

Shoot what makes you happy and move on.

My apologies for getting the wrong vibe.

No problem.

I don't pass up legal bucks. And I don't agree with the horn hunters forcing their agenda on everyone who just wants to eat some venison. I don't force you to shoot a spike-don't force me to pass one up and we'll get along just fine.

My state makes everybody pass up spikes and forkhorns.

Mike -

Arkansas Law says MUST HAVE 3 pts. on 1 side. So a 4-5 pt CAN be legal,
Also, "Button Bucks MUST be registered as ANTLERED--- in most zones.

Jerry

So, if you hunted where you saw a lot of deer you wouldnt want the challenge of taking one which had had the chance to reproduce? Ok.

I am interested in mature bucks, shooting a young buck doesn't do much for me. I've killed my fair share of young bucks years ago but my tastes have changed. I can kill 7 does a year, I usually only kill 2, and I usually kill a nice buck every other year or so. That gives us plenty of meat to eat and I enjoy letting little ones walk.



If shooting spikes makes you happy have at it, you're buying the license so you need to enjoy spending your money. A buddy of mine kills 2 small bucks a year and is shickled titless every year and I'm happy for him.

I agree hunting shows are a joke, for the most part. I watched one the other day and they had about 12 bucks in front of them that many people would consider the trophy of a lifetime, but they were looking for "something bigger." Many shows are filmed in locations, read 'game farms,' which most people will never have access to. It gives a false sense of reality to younger hunters.

And how 'bout hunter nowadays calling everything smaller a "cull buck." A guy at work who I've known for at least 7 years, and in that time I've never known him to kill a buck, shot a 1 antlered buck and told everybody he shot it because it needed to be "culled" from the herd. Yeah, pretty unnecessary to cull bucks from the National forest.

I hunt public land. I try and put myself in a position to kill big bucks and I do pass smaller bucks, sometimes. However, that is a personal choice and I encourage young, or new, hunters to shoot the first legal buck they see.

This year I shot a buck towards the end of season that I wouldn't have shot earlier. I'd actually already passed up several bucks slightly larger to include that one. However, after watching him through my $1700 binoculars, I looked down and realized that I have a $1500 rifle, in a $600 McMillan stock, topped with a $1500 scope, that I'd never killed a deer with. I ranged him at 237 yards, and made a perfect shot. There's a saying in the army, "train as you fight."

I'm a deer hunter. Sometimes I have to remind myself this is a hobby, and I'm just out to have fun.

If I remember right the Hanson buck was 4 1/2. Knowing how these celebrity hunters now like to only shoot 5 1/2's and up, I wonder how many of them would've been willing to pass on the Hanson buck and "give him another year"? LOL.

My local processor charger per deer, no per pound...so big is a better value. Just so happens that big deer frequently are older and have more headgear. Show me a doe equal to a 4.5 year old buck and I'll shoot her.

One of the funniest analogies to this topic.

When mule deer hunting above timberline. It usually involves 4 am wake up. 2.5 hour ride in the dark on mules. Tying them off at 8000 ft elevation. Then climbing 500 to 1000 vertical feet to get to the summit.

I hear it from my buddies and I think it my self " if I am gonna shoot one in this hell hole, it has got to be a whopper!"

Very counter intuitive........ a dink would be easier to get out. Heck you could pan fry a squirrel and call it good!

I will not shoot anything with spots, empty freezer or not, but it is my intention to fill the freezer. I use antlers for only 2 things, we screw 'em to the cabin walls as hanging hooks for all sort of things, and I supply antlers from time to time to a Indian knife maker for handles. Last delivery I traded a paper box load for a #100 anvil from the 1850-1870 era.
I have never had a mount made, nor would I waste the money. I haven't found a good recipe for antlers yet.

Side note: my father-in-law gave up hunting, when the lead of thier hunting party declared no one could shoot less than a 6 point. And no does until each had thier own buck. Pissed him off enough to hang up his hunting gear for all time. (Gifted and sold some of it to me)

Killing a deer 4.5 yrs and older gives me a sense of accomplishment, but is not how I judge the quality of the hunt. My hunting style has evolved to where I seek and peek hunt in the timber for the most part. The action can be fast and furious at times, but does offer the occasional time to attempt to judge an animal. In our area, the amount of horn that a deer can add between 3.5 and 5.5 years is incredible. I believe it more important to age a deer to get an understanding of the age structure of your herd, both bucks and does. How many of you check the teeth of your doe?

I seldom watch deer hunting shows any longer. They have changed the culture of deer hunting...excuse me, I think it is called "harvesting" these days. I thought we were deer hunters, not deer farmers. My opinion is not to tick anyone off, it is just my opinion...not saying I'm right or wrong. I enjoyed the days before leasing where I could walk the woods, find deer sign, and figure out how to kill him. Now, where I hunt you are not allowed to hunt anywhere except in your stands as you might be too close to another stand; even if you wanted to hunt on one of your shooting lanes but not "in" your stand.

But I stopped watching when scouting on the shows (and now by people everywhere, including my best friend) was done by trail cameras, pulling cards, and going home and putting them on a computer to see what deer was coming out where and when or for those who can get a signal now don't even have to go pull their cards from said camera, they can just sit in the warmth of their own home and figure out where they need to be at a certain time to kill a certain buck. The majority of our young people wouldn't know how to hunt the old way so if the state came in and outlawed corn, food plots, trail cameras, etc. I'm afraid many of them would not have a clue as to locate a good buck and kill him. Again, that is my opinion.

I hunt because I enjoy being in the outdoors. Don't use trail cameras so I don't have a clue what is going to come out or when or if. I still hate to hunt this way, but if my family and I are going to eat venison, I have to endure it.

I didn't read past your first post. But spikes are trash and need to be shot if you want better older bucks...

there are many hunters this day and age that assume just because they don't shoot a particular deer
that it will be alive year after year and forget to factor in natural death, or disease, or predators, or parasites,
or poachers, road kill, injuries, etc. etc.
of course, the particular deer may not have the genes to make a "trophy" rack, or the nutrition available to
grow one even with the right genetics to do so.

just me, i'd say hunt the way you want to and accord the next guy the same courtesy.

I hunt with my brother back in Ohio. The shotgun season is a week long. My nephews usually only take a day or two off work to hunt. We shoot the 1st legal deer we see----buck or doe.

I'll shoot a dink----How else do I have a chance to win ingwe's "Dink-a-thon"

When I'm hunting locally, its usually on my own place. If I or my kids don't shoot a buck the chances are good that he'll be around next year, or next week if someone changes changes their mind. Getting a decent buck isn't really much of a trick, and letting a really big young one go if he obviously has all sorts of growing potential isn't some great display of self restraint. Doing what you want is easy and what I want is an older heavy buck preferably with some character. That sort of sets the bar, because why shoot something elsewhere that I let go at home?

If someone else (or myself 30 years ago) wants to shoot a young deer, a small deer or the first deer they see what business is it of mine? Maybe they are lucky to get anything, or maybe they don't care. Still none of my business. Conversely; why should they care what I do, or hope to do?

Hunting shows are 100% infomercials.
Not a grain of information that isn't scripted with the sole intention of selling some product hawked by a sponsor.
Every gun is the best, every scent, call, camo, truck, knife, yada yada yada... Cutting edge , blah blah blah.... Bell and Howell tactical this and that.

I grew up hunting in a family that shot just about every single legal buck they saw. I'd have to say we had a pile of fun killing all of those deer and I still have a pile of small antlers from back then as well as many fond memories. A lot of those guys would pass up a pile of doe to shoot a 1.5yo fork horn and be elated about the "accomplishment." After 15-20 years or so of that style hunting, it started losing interest for me, so I started shooting does for meat early & late season and hunting the core of each season for older bucks. I do think that those early years and the enjoyment we had hunting "deer" instilled a fire in me for deer hunting in general as I still get really shook up even when shooting a doe. I've been around many hunters that don't get much excitement out of deer hunting and many of those hunters are really caught up in "score." It's much more fun sharing camp with those that get utterly thrilled out of any deer period regardless of antler size.

I do feel like the TV hunting takes away from the sport in many ways, especially for what some feel like are trophies based on antler size alone. When you've hunted in many states/areas, it's pretty easy to determine that "trophy" status is more about area than what a tape measure reveals. I've hunted in some places where an older deer may only score 100-110" yet they are of the same maturity as some of the TV show 160" plus type bucks and some guys consider the smaller bucks dinks just based on score. I can also bet good money that some of those smaller deer took a heck of a lot more effort and time than some of the unpressured giants you see on the TV.

TV style, trophy hunting isn't for me.

I've shot them, big & small, based solely on what I want !

The one common denominator in all my family's deer hunting, is that every deer we shoot is legal & will be processed, vacuum packaged & eaten by us.

I truly loath the trophy hunter that shoots a big deer in multiple states/provinces & supposedly "donates" the meat from their animal to "the needy" !

You shoot a deer, you should respect the resource & eat it.

YMMV

Interesting, Every hunter in our deer camp has 4 deer tags and many go unfilled for a variety reasons. Some hunters, including yours truly, donate a deer to the Wisconsin DNR food pantry program. My family's needs come first and we eat what we shoot, but I choose to share the bounty of the resource available to me with the less fortunate.

Right on roundoak. Same here in TX, known as Hunters for the Hungry. Great program. I usually give them 4-5 deer every year. I'm pretty sure the recipients do not loathe us.

I've always shot does. I see very few bucks when hunting and shoot whatever is legal. I've shot maybe 4 bucks in all my years hunting including a yearling that had nubs (thought it was a doe). My biggest buck was a 10 point that had broken off part of his horn making him a 9 point. I enjoyed getting a buck but ultimately prefer the meat. It appears that most of the tv shows are "management" hunting for producing trophies and not actually looking at the meat aspect? It has turned me off to most hunting shows since it is unrealistic.

Sorry Guys,

Not what I meant at all. I'll happily share with friends & family, or anybody that wants to try well cared for Venison.

What I was "trying" to mean was, Shoot a trophy set of horns in multiple states, with no intention of ever eating any of the venison,
& then justify their behaviour/actions by "donating the meat".

It's not the donating I loath, it's the disrespect behind their intentions from the outset !

Again, YMMV.

Hate the adjectives cultivated by deer farmers and lease landlords bleeding over into hunting speak.....cull, trash, management, trophy, etc. Myself, and most all deer hunters I am acquainted with, consider any deer taken legally and ethically worthy of respect.

Hunters against hunger programs I believe originated here in Ohio, due to a major screwup of bowwing to public pressure, that ended in several deaths. (Bambie-Thumpers were the driving cause, and deer fleeing the parks in droves caused several fatal deer/accidents. ). In the end, the parks were culled properly with rifles on stands, but the open shelters were forbidden by law to accept the free meat from the project. It was not Government approved food. Laws had to be rewritten, and methods of disbursement had to be figured out. (Who pays, and how to be .gov approved)

Long story, but bambie-Thumpers screwed up twice running. (Who'd a thunk it?)

How are spikes trash?

Spikes are not trash. That is an old wife's tale. Some genetic traits can be passed, but growth is mainly an age and Nutrition issue. Here is some facts and research on antler.

http://www.iwla-rh.org/html/DGIF_articles/deer_antlers.html

Exactly the spike trash crap had been handed down over the years here too....one of the many incorrect things people pass along out of ignorance and others believe it because of who told them.....

I remember very well in the 70-80s that John Wooters repeatedly said, "once a spike always a spike". I didn't know one way or the other at the time but I've come to know that is NOT always right.

A very young buck may be a spike for his first - short - set but they are not forever a spike.

OTOH, I have killed much larger bucks, 2 1/2, 3 1/2 yo that were STILL spikes. So SOMETIMES a spike will always be a spike but NOT always.

It's also my opinion from 40+ years of deer hunting, that a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 yo spike will NOT become a "trophy" or very large racked buck.


Jerry

I like killing mature bucks with lots of antler! I try to do so every year. I pass up several that would make others very happy. That’s just what I choose to do. But...

....I don’t care what anybody else shoots as long as it’s legal.
....I’m strongly opposed to antler restrictions.
....I tell anybody that hunts with me or on my land to shoot whatever makes them happy.
....I let my kids or any kids shoot anything they want, from button to spike to giant.
....I don’t care how you do it as long as it’s legal - over corn, with a bow, crossbow or gun - I don’t care.
....I fill my doe tags every year. I enjoy shooting and eating deer. We hadn’t bought ground beef in years.
....I let my kids shoot as many deer as they want (within legal limits).
....I like trail cameras. I consider it part of the hunt. Pictures are neat.
....I want everybody to be happy with their kill.

I know “inches” are killing hunting and it pisses me off.

Yep, I'm aware of that as I've seen studies where spikes turn into B&C deer and sometimes they don't.

My favorite buck I've killed was an older deer the taxi said he guessed 6.5yrs old based on teeth, that is a 7pt. Slightly wider than his ears, good mass, scars all over him, been shot in the past, just an old warrior and that's what I'm after. Score doesn't mean much to me, I'd just rather pull the trigger on an older mature deer than a young one.

Speaking of spikes, I can't help but wonder if it is geographical to some extent. In Iowa I could count the number of spikes I have seen without taking my shoes off but literally hundreds of fork horns or basket 6 and 8 points. We just don't seem to have spikes around here.

I am a fan of letting legal hunters shoot whichever legal deer they want to and try not to judge. If looking for meat I prefer to shoot does and let younger-looking or smaller bucks pass in hopes of shooting something bigger and letting them grow but this is never an absolute. I'm not even sure it really works as I have shot a couple of nicer mature bucks but probably nothing many of you would consider a trophy. In most areas 150" deer just aren't as common as some people would have you think and if you can have one in your sights without getting the shakes; congratulations-you are a better man than me. I doubt I could let one pass. As someone else said it is the situation and the experience that makes the hunt sometimes and not just the size of the horns. I worked my butt off to take my first antelope doe on public land in a unit with limited access and consider her a 'trophy' even with no horns at all.

Great plan. As many get older and more successful, i think they naturally want to increase the challenge, which is what prompts most to deer hunt in the first place.

I totally agree.....

As in most hobbies, sports...etc....

If one bases his " success" or " gratification" by the approval of others.....

And furthermore pushes his or her agenda of criteria meeting approval amongst his associates.....

He will be friendless, and empty.

I agree about the respect even regarding ‘inferior’ bucks. I do ‘ cull’ when I can. By that I mean I kill bucks that are obviously ‘handicapped’ or wierdly
unmatched or freakish. I killed 1 last year that had a normal rack on the right side but the left side ‘freakish’. I posted it last yr in this forum but photoPUKEIT has seized it for ransom. They ‘want’ 300.00 / yr to share to other sites. Want is ALL they get.

I’m currently organizing pix with another hosting service. Hopefully I’ll be able to post some here. This past Oct. I saw a real FREAK antlered Buck ONCE, haven’t seen him since. Both bucks NEEDED to be culled. I eat the meat but their breeding days are over and can’t pass their genes in the herd.

We can have some input to the Buck quality w/o being a farming operation. Everywhere I hunt the deer are FREE ranging. Since 2012 I have only seen 1 Buck two times. All the others I’ve killed, THAT was the only time I saw them.

Jerry

Wooters was the guy who really got the ball rolling with the idea of a "Management Buck." The next thing you know, everyone is out there "culling" the herd of everything with a crappy antler. I've got his book Hunting Trophy Deer right next to me on the shelf.

1) There is no way a few guys on a few acres are going to have any effect on wild deer genetics. It's spitting in the ocean.
2) Half the genetics are carried by the doe, Now what?
3) The previous posters were right: Since Wooters wrote his tome, studies have shown spikes can turn into awesome racks later in life.
4) Wooters got all his knowledge working with captive deer inside fences. These weren't free ranging.


Mind you, I'm all for shooting deer with mangled antlers. I've shot my share.


EDIT: One other thing I left out. Wooters was in the ground before DNA testing came around. Since Wooter's time, genetic studies have shown that it isn't the big racks that do most of the breeding. In actuality, while the big guys are wrastlin' about, it's generally the young guys with the spikes, forks, and dinky baskets that are running around getting all the sugar. Whoda thunk?

Darrick, you and I are more in agreement than not.

1. It P M O for experienced hunters to kill FAWNS . because there is a 50/50 chance they are nubbins. Kill nubbins, you kill FUTURE racks -whether large or small.

2. Some yrs. back Ark imposed 3 pts on 1 side Antler Restrictions. ALL, repeat ALL that did was to let bucks live ONE yr longer. I didn't like the restriction but had NO say in the matter.

3. I tell anyone (Adult - experienced hunter) don't shoot fawns.

4. I agree about kids or women OR newbie hunters shoot anything LEGAL if they want to kill it.

5. I want to fill my Doe tags - 4 or 6 depending on the zone. I don't always get to do that.

Not on your list so -- Hunting Free range deer from all the surrounding property (I can't hunt), I don't kill every legal buck that I could. This yr. alone I passed up a few young - small bodied - small racked bucks, because I know there are better out there. My 'largest' buck is only a 140 class. I have a few that are close to that so I don't have any BOOK Bucks. I like most hunters want to kill the biggest buck I have the opportunity.

As I said above - Since 2012 I have killed ONLY 1 buck that I saw twice. All the bucks I've killed---I saw ONLY one X. Mostly I hunt family property 70 acres BUT Does & Bucks come & go at will. Trail cameras won't help me MUCH, some maybe but not a lot. IF I set a goal of a particular buck - neighbors from 3 sides may very kill it and I'm WAITING on a dead buck.

There are diff things that affect diff hunting areas. We just do the best we can with what we have to work with.(grammar incorrect)

Thanks and I'm glad you are participating here.

Jerry

Reading some of these comments, it becomes very apparent why more and more legally mandated requirements are put in place to protect the resource.

For the meat hunters, letting a deer live to at least three years old usually will produce a deer that has substantially more body weight of a one year old.

You'll start shooting big deer, body weight and/or rack size, when you quit shooting small deer.

Start from what is best for the animals as a whole, conserve the resource.

A doe will Never sprout antlers.......

A doe never has the vast variance in metabolic change.....as she is always lactating.....more consistent meat product IMO

Buck smart.......does smarter.......

Eat does.........watch bucks grow......if you can.

In some areas, doing that simply means "tag soup" for the hunter.
Too broad a brush.
Management varies, and has to, even within a state's regions.

I have shot my share of "legal" bucks over the years. When I first started deer hunting over 50 years ago, any legal deer was fair game. These days, I suppose you could call me a trophy hunter. I don't have the slightest desire to kill a buck unless he's wearing a nice set of antlers.......say 140 B&C or better. Now, that may rub some people the wrong way, and if it does, I offer no apology. I am not a meat hunter, as I don't eat much venison. If I want one to eat, I'll kill a doe. If I kill a nice buck, I give the meat to my Mennonite neighbor.

With all that being said, I am the first to admit that the age thing, and the B&C thing has taken a lot of the fun out of deer hunting.....thanks to the TV shows, and all the people that have become celebrities as a result. A person should be able to deer hunt as he damn well pleases. If he wants to kill a deer for the freezer, then so be it, and he should just do that, and go on about his business. On the flip side, if one is after a trophy buck, then they should have that right as well. But, what gets me is that trophy hunting has been taken to a level that has just about ruined the sport. A trophy to one hunter might not be to another, yet today all we hear about is age and inches.

There are parts of the country where deer can live long enough to grow big antlers, and there are places where they can't. I live in an area in which a buck is lucky to see his second set of antlers. The local Mennonites are fixated with antlers, and shoot anything wearing them. A TV show wouldn't have much luck filming here, if they wanted to focus on trophy hunting. So, most years I don't even shoot anything, and I'm happy with that........and that's how one should look at it....whatever satisfies themselves.

You are mistaken sir. Does CAN AND DO have antlers. (From the link I posted above)
".....What about antlered does. Yes, does can have antlers. If you took a normal doe and treated her with testosterone, she would grow antlers. Hunters typically encounter two types of antlered “does”; those with hard antlers and those in velvet. Does with velvet covered antlers usually have normal female reproductive tracts and can bear fawns. Does with hardened antlers are almost always male pseudohermophrodites. These animals have female external genitalia, but have male organs (testicles) internally...."

(Also from the above link) even Frankindeers are possible with some assistance. Antler growth is determined by the level of testosterone.

The skin or tissue that develops at the top of the pedicel reacts to hormones in the deer body and actually causes an antler to grow/develop. The most interesting aspect of this antler growth tissue is that, if it is surgically removed and grafted to another part of the deer’s body, an antler will grow there. For example, it would be possible to surgically produce a unicorn deer or a deer with 10 antlers growing out of its skull or any other part of the body.

The annual antler cycle is ultimately controlled by day length or photoperiod. The brain contains a kind of clock that measures the periods of light and dark and uses this information to ultimately control the secretion of the reproductive hormone testosterone in males. Testosterone controls the antler cycle. In tests, bucks kept in constant 12 hours of light and dark were unable to shed their antlers and grow new ones, and bucks kept in constant light grew and lost three sets of antlers in two years..

Too many deer will equal low body weight. Only so many groceries on a given amount of land. Camp I’m in saw that when we started shooting more does. Over several years avg doe weight went from 70# to 100# with some close to 120#.

We don’t shot the does during rut. But before and after rut. Game on.


The big time trophy hunting and contests take away from the fun of hunting IMO. It got to around here, the big buck contest gave away a 4-wheeler. I watch a FB page that posts deer killed across MS. No matter how big or little the buck is. Someone always has add “it’d been good one next year”.. WTF? Maybe this guy gets to hunt once in a blue moon and that’s his deer for the freezer for the year.

As with kids, i love for kids to kill deer. Any shape and size. Spikes are legal in MS for youth. Get the kids hooked. Let them be trophy hunters when they grow up. Kinda like fishing for kids. Take them bass fishing and it’ll last about five minutes. Take the bream fishing and them will have a ball.

Mr. Angus - Kellory is right about Does CAN have antlers.

I have a pic in my phone of a friend who killed an ANTLERED DOE in Grant Co. Ark. in 2016. I had not planned to post it but I might.
Her antlers were in VELVET - 7 points and w/velvet they look massive.

I, myself would have shot the deer FOR a buck w/o hesitation. I've never killed a buck in velvet - let alone in Deer Season, Nov.-Dec.
His pic w/the deer was in the State Paper out of L. R. Ark.

I don't know you Mr. Angus OR Mr. Kellory. Remember - Never say Never.

Jerry

Very Good Analogy. Never heard or read it. I'd agree with Kids OR Women "where legal".

Jerry

Good post Big Dave.

It doesn't matter if it's a good year or not. In Ohio, we get one buck a year, no matter how we take it, and average 4-7 does, depending on where in the state you hunt.

Edit: here, a buck has 3" of spike or more. Anything less is an "antlerless deer or doe"

Same regs here too ! One buck per licensed hunter, less than 3" = antlerless. Maximum of 2 additionally purchased antlerless tags per licensed hunter, in the same wildlife management unit.

Some more food for thought; Unfortunately in many cases here, letting an antlered deer walk is more likely to result in a shot coming from one of the neighbours, than the deer surviving another year !

Yep, +1 !

I like meat. Lucky me we have doe tags and can shoot culls.

I try to do whats best for the herd regardless. Which means rarely harvesting a mature deer, but taking the bad and the excess all the time. They eat fine. If not better than a wallhanger.

Others don't care at all. Thats ok with me. I just don't want you next to me shooting ever buck that walks by, bringin in the friends and in laws etc... on a 20 acre parcel of land... Other than that if you ( in my particular home area) kill one buck a year, and I do, I hope yours isnt' a promising one but even if it is, I can handle that just fine.

It gets really tough I know, where folks have no chance to shoot a doe or spike or cull. But those that have the chance and say they want a bigger one, but not a mature one are just pot calling kettle black really.

Had a guy last year here send out letters to all us neighbors about management etc... and he was seeing this 11. I agreed. The deer really needed 2-3 years more to be prime and hopefully have bred more does. All he did was get the folks around to not shoot it last year so he could shoot it first thing this year cause it was a bit bigger. I'd seen it all summer long and even into season a bit before he shot it. His choice though. But he was pot calling kettle black. He was selfish in the whole scheme of things. Luckily he doesn';t have a clue whats really out there to make that 11 look fairly small because he doesn't run cameras and hunts out of his dining room window behind the house, the mature deer generally don't do that unless a doe is in heat....

We have 3 pt or better on one side here, after 5 years there are some better bucks! but it seemed like a bunch of 3 1/2 year 8pts were killed this season, I had 4 on trail cams and l killed one, I even passed a fair 6pt. 2 buck a year rule, and some doe tags , I also took a doe, we eat alot of vension, and I try to put 3 a year in the freezer but didnt happand this season I also hunted 46 times! the deer are not in Numbers like they were 5-6 years ago, I also saw many does without fawns this year! with the zreo weather, and alot of snow this early, I hope we dont have a big die off as the older bucks will go! happanded 4 years ago! I wish Id shot the 6 pt now, and next season I dont think Ill pass any legal buck I hunt mostly Nat. Forest land! Cant eat the dam Horns!

Oh yeah, comments on TV... I gave up hunting shows on TV when one came to film where I worked.. what a flipping total joke. About money and nothing else. Yep there seem to be some good ones now and then but I'm just soured on the whole thing. Hunting is personal and not public IMHO.

Comments on young bucks breeding. I've seen a LOT of deer over many years. I"d be willing to venture more exposure than a lot of hunters ever will be due to guiding so many years and starting so young hunting and hunting long seasons every year.

Bucks around here rarely get the chance to breed until they are 3.5 years old. Just how it goes. I've never seen a spike breed a doe unless it was like our old non restricted shoot any buck you want rules were in place years ago. Then it was just the fact there were no bucks.

We hunt a lease that we see on an average sit, 10 bucks give or take. maybe 2 does. on a place like that you also see who really gets the shots at breeding. I'm about the same at home, though its more like 5-6 bucks and a doe now and then. So when a doe comes in, there is a lot of activity and the big boys do NOT let the young one slip in while they are fighting plus the doe won't let the young ones breed typically.

High deer numbers will give you smaller deer every time. And you'll have times where you have a die off from weather or disease. Personally I'd rather shoot a few larger bodied does than a bunch of small ones.

Often on antler regs it takes 5 years to see a difference and then it takes anotehr 5 or so for folks to get over having to kill the first bigger but now legla buck they see.

For the first 30 yeras we owned the place I did all I could to have deer, draw deer etc... was still lucky if we saw deer 3 times a year. The ONLY thing that changed that is the antler regs... people were simply killing almost all the bucks every year. When most of the bucks are young, its pretty easy. They eventually are stupid and get shot. Since the regs, its rare that we go a day without seeing a deer. And I have 7 food plots and 3 protein feeders that they eat on year round.

Amazing what some restraint can eventually build.

But I'm aware regs don't alwasy work the same in every location.

This quote is from P 2 - this thread.




HERE he is: He is NOT any book trophy. I consider him a CULL but I'm HAPPY to have shot him, he went into freezer.
He DRT from my 7mm RM - CNS - he was less than 75 yds from property line. You can see that he had HOOKED his antlers nearly smooth above the hairline.

*** This was the FIRST and ONLY time I saw this particular buck.


YAHOO YAHOO First Attempt of posting from IMGUR, Can't believe it on the FIRST TIME.





Jerry

That’s a dandy!

As for spikes. I’ve always believed cowhorn spikes need killing. A 140# deer with 12” spikes will never amount to anything. Put him in the cooler.

We run cameras. Prolly 15 or more. It gives us a good idea of deer on the property. And ID between folks. You can see an 8pt in the morn and i see the same deer in the eve. And we are going to describe two different deer. But cameras also have
Limitations. I’ve sat and hunted near a camera. Say in a food plot. Or Even the woods. I’ll see 5 deer and only one passes in front of the camera. Well, if i wasn’t there to see it myself, by looking at the camera pics I’d say not much happening there.

I see too many folks chasing a deer on camera. All that tells you is he WAS there. Unless h has a regular routine.

During the Rut. All bets are off. Couple years ago. We had the same buck regularly on cameras on properties 2miles part as the crow flies. So he was roaming! And as he left another deer would roam in.

With another year on him..........




*grins*
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Nice buck, Jerry!

SEE here.



Jerry

Thank You

Jerry

Goodness!

I finally got pix to where I can post them.

This is the Freak Buck I killed last year. There was no indication of injury anywhere on the deer and the L antler didn't look broken or altered.



This photo is of damage from Another buck GORING him.




SINCE 2102 THIS is the ONLY buck that I have seen TWICE.

Jerry

Another dandy. That’s what I say needs killing.

Dave, I saw that buck in Oct. and named him Freak. Didn't see him again till Dec. 26 OR 27. He was on my hit list.

I can't control all the land OR deer but I can have INPUT. I have another WORSE freak than that one. Have only seen him 1 time in Oct. 2017.

He NEEDS killin too.

Thank You

Jerry

I damn sure don't when I'm filling tags for three old dudes that can't see, shoot or hear for chit anymore, two VN Vets and one Korean Vet.

You guys are absolutely correct, and I stand corrected.

But my meow is the opposite in fact.

In Montana you are not allowed to shoot a spike elk.

In Idaho...they have open OTC spike hunts! But Idaho is always meowing about bull to cow ratio, so my preposition is a spike can become a bull. A cow never will. ....... so why the OTC spike hunts?

I took it just as you said. But leave it to the google gurus to prove someone wrong.
Pretty slim for doe to have horns. Very slim. But they are *right* it happens.

Mr Angus - here’s to busting Does 🍺

Concur, but "tag soup" is not a good excuse to shoot a young buck, except for those at subsistence level. For them, whole different standard is in play and I have no qualms whatsoever.



Obviously the old saying is too subtle and whistled past the point. Restated - quit shooting young bucks. They cannot grow up to be a big deer, whether body or rack size, if they are killed when they are young.

Yes, totally understand about limiting the population to the carrying capacity. In most scenarios, but not all, the most effective way to reduce the population is to reduce does. I've been asked to help cull does on a large property, over 10,000 acres, a few times when they were having a hard time hitting the required numbers to meet the management goals. We'd shoot and fill the back of a pickup bed with does, take them in to be cleaned, go out do it again, and again. Sounds like fun, but it turns into challenging work in a hurry. None of the meat went to waste. It was given directly to families in the area who were quite happy to have it. Same goes for pigs most of the time.

Without question, management criteria need to fit the specific locale, but rarely does that warrant shooting young bucks by which I mean fawns, one and two year olds.

As for kids having fun, the ones that hunt with me follow the same criteria as the adults on the property. They have plenty of opportunity shooting does and every pig we see. If they shoot a buck, they know they met the same standards as the grownups.

Never heard any of them complain and they seem to have lots of fun being treated like a grownup. Have heard a few grown men whining, and I'd prefer that my nephews not grow up to be those men.

My then 11 year old nephew shot his first buck, which was a mature 10 that went 148" and 220 pounds. Right place at the right time for sure, but the foundation for success was the property owner not letting people shoot the young bucks. It was a relatively small property too, just a few hundred acres of mesquite in the middle of a some big ag fields. The deer had lots to munch on at night, and spent the days in this wooded property. So even on smaller properties, letting them grow up can pay dividends.

Spikes are worthy of a thread unto themselves, but the spikes I see all are yearlings and I give them a pass.

If I need to put meat in the freezer, it is whatever fits the management goals for the property with few exceptions, such as shooting a buck with a broken leg this year.

I have hunted on two properties where they wanted any deer seen shot to bring the numbers down, but those were very unusual circumstances.

One of the better criteria put in place on one NWR where I used to hunt was the "earn a buck" rule. Hunters had to bring in a doe before they were given a buck tag. Worked pretty well at cutting numbers.

Mr Bird, thanks for your input and reasoning.

I have had a ‘little’ support here on the ‘fire’ per shooting FAWNS, to be pointed —DINKS.
Whether fawns or young ( small ) bucks they CAN’T grow UP after being kilt ‘.

It makes NO sense to me to kill fawns OR small bucks. You or someone else stated the obvious earlier. Older deer yield MORE meat.

I don’t want to be misinterpreted, I’m NOT a trophy hunter !!!!!! I’m a miserable failure - 45 years of deer hunting and 0 book trophies.
Wherever I hunt I want bucks to be bigger and more of them. Killing nubbins REDUCES the number of antlered bucks where you hunt.

I don’t think that should be hard to comprehend.

Thnx Again

Jerry

Mr jerry, we are on the same line of thinking. Could share a camp.

I’ve only had mounted 1 deer. A heavy horn oddball 7 pt. Scored 126”.

In Colonial times there were hunters. Folks that were good at it,and provided for the encampment or settlement. Woodsmen. Now everyone with the means to participate in "hunting" wants his or her bit of control over the outcome. When I was young it was all about success. If you weren't successful every year,you weren't a good hunter. News flash. Not everyone is. Just like Colonial times. So,through time we have groomed things to make it easier for everyone to be successful. Like it or not,it was monetarily driven.

The video industry was the best thing ever to help drive the new age of hunting. Everyone wanted to be like Wilbur,or have their "Monster buck moment". Cameras,tree stands,video equipment,calls. All being dragged into the brush. Deer have been groomed for size,shape,age base. All to satisfy our burgeoning egos. Millions of dollars a year dumped into the "sport" of hunting.

Now anyone can do it. So all we have left is judging each other. The age of the deer isn't the real question here. It's the approval of our peers. Again,thanks to the hunting video industry.

Being on the back side of it all now,"old". I hunt to be a hunter. Never used an elevated stand or camera. Not going to start now. It's not about deer age or size. It's not about filling the freezer. It's about squeezing some enjoyment and quiet time out of life. Rest assured,if my loved ones were hungry,deer would die,regardless of their size or shape. I know how to do it. Hey,I use to watch hunting videos you know. Deer weren't put here for me to "manage",but somehow I manage to get my share.

Get up. Get out and hunt! Concern yourself with your own ethics and peace of mind. The rest is bull chit.

If you shoot all the Does , you will end up without any deer! our DNR not so much in bow season , but after rifle season folks are finding alot of dead fork horns that guys shot , and walked up to them to find the 3 third point wasnt there! and I guess they just walk away! I talked to one DNR officer she had been called to 11 bucks that were found dead that didnt make the 3 point rule! I had to pass on a large buck 2 seasons ago that I couldnt make out a third point, had him in the scope 3 times, better safe than sorry. Most of the hunting land in my area is Nat. Forest with private land 5 to 100 acres! Also know 2 old Vets that havent shot a buck in the last few years, ones 80 and wishs to shoot one more buck before he cant hunt anymore! just my thoughts.

This "book" that you speak of should never be a measure of success.
In many instances, it's a measure of whether lady luck has sided with someone or not.

That's been going on in PA for years because of the 3 point rule.

Thanks Scott

My point is in this thread - I'm NOT a trophy hunter. Yes, I want & look for the biggest buck I can find/shoot.
I'm not driven to achieve B & C status. No one can kill what ISN'T there.

You know there are "Ranches" that are NO MORE than deer farms. I'm NOT referring to where You, Paul & Bob have hunted. I appreciate that the owner there does NOT ALLOW, feeders, cameras, etc.

In another "big" State the fee for a "management" or "cull" buck is astronomical let alone the fee for a record SIZE buck. I'm very GLAD that B & C doesn't recognize high fenced bucks.


I'm only trying to reinforce the philosophy - DON'T SHOOT small deer. That does NOT mean only shoot the 'biggest'.

Thanks Again

Jerry

Follow Up



Here are my 2 largest bucks.

A. This is the 140 'class' killed in 2007. We had a LOCAL gun/hunting shop and they were familiar with scoring size. NO ONE officially scored this buck. I know these guys personally and I trust them.
This pic was taken with an OLD phone I no longer have.



IIRC he weighed 182 # (?). I had FUN finding/shooting him. Deer were not moving on our lease. We had a very large REgrowth cut over. Everything was about waist high so I was STALKING into the wind. AKA "rabbit jumping" deer that were bedded down. This guy was bedded WITH a Doe. I got w/in 30 or so yds and they both jumped up. I 'missed' the first shot--DRT him w/the second.


B. This is my Heaviest Bodied Buck, 10 pt. Nov. 2008. I shot him from a stand at a known crossing - 180 yds. *** My FIRST day hunting my Black Shadow 300 WM*** Wonder why I like my 300 ? lol





He weighed 194 # at least, I was reading the scale from below looking up. He probably was a little heavier - NO MATTER.
I have a few racks that are 'close' to these two but NONE were better--SO FAR, I ain't thru!

Jerry

Some big, old deer there Jwall. Very nice.

Personally, If I can't shoot old, very mature bucks, I'd just as soon shoot a doe rather than an immature buck. That goes for whitetails only, as mule deer does are off limits entirely.

Great Bucks Jerry....

The area I hunt is private land bordered by national forest I target specific bucks I get pics of off my trail cams and I dont shoot does if I see a gigantic spike Ill shoot it other than that Its ear width or better unless Im desperate for meat

Thnx J G & battue. Sometimes I get lucky.

I found the ONLY 2 pix I have of another buck I'm particularly FOND of. 11- 2010
First - look over the deer's head. This was another part of that same lease and what we call a Pine Plantation. I happen to catch him crossing and he did NOT expect me to be there. Neither did a friend and pard who was hunting THIS buck.



This is the only other pic. It was between 4:30-5:00 pm, by the time I got back to camp it was dark so no more pix.
He had good length & width but not so heavy. Another Black Shadow kill ! An appropriate name.




Jerry

Some very nice bucks!

I go by the "Book of Dan" if it sets my ticker to ticking fast it's a shooter...2 entries this season
My archery buck didn't have the largest rack but was a huge mature buck that weighted 230lbs and aged at 5 1/2 yrs old after he was dead
The Big browed 8pt I shot came after hunting hard for 29 days in a row both are not nearly the biggest bucks I've killed but both trophy's entered in the "Book of Dan"

You're very welcome, add me as one of the supporters for your thinking.

Nice looking deer, congratulations.

I've never even had a buck's rack measured.

Neither have I ever had a rack officially scored.


Thanks Guys

except - dvdg

Yeah Yeah your buck is bigger than mine !



My hat's off to you twice for Archery kills. Usually that's more difficult.


CONGRATS

Jerry

I score my own.

Mike -

""A 30-30 is all you need, if you use a 30-06 you'll just hit a tree" -My Grandpa"
________________________________________


I have been proving that wrong since 1974. The last time I hunted OR shot a thutty- thutty was 1973.

My sig line WILL say, " I never wished I had more arch in my bullet path."
I've been thinking about that since the first time you quoted your G pa. I don't know of 1, single, advantage having steeper arches in trajectory. I don't try to shoot over limbs, bushes, or rocks.

I have never seen a flat trajectory to be a hindrance or handicap.

Just trying friendly reasoning.

Your Friend

Jerry

Literate?

Understood Jerry. At no time did I ever imply I agree with my Grandpa but I have his words on my sig line in honor of him and because I think his words are thought provoking.
I might also better explain what he was saying since he said it to me. He meant that in the woods you can't see beyond the range of the .30-30 (approx. 200 yards) because there are trees blocking your ability to see further. So in essence, the 30-06 that I used offered no advantage. I was a 30-06 guy and that's why he said it.

Jerry

Otter-I enjoyed your post and agree with a lot of it. The thing that bothers me is, the ones who want to judge a man for killing a small buck. If it is a legal deer and you hunt on a lease that allows it...it is no one else's business what they shoot. If one hunts on a lease or private land with low or no fence, does anyone have the right to get mad at someone on the next lease or land who shoots "your" deer? Years ago I was watching Roger Ragland on his show and reading questions from viewers. One of the questions was from an irate viewer who questioned Roger's ethics on a deer he had apparently killed on one of his shows. I guess he had killed it after it had jumped a low fence from another property and come to his stand and Roger killed it. The viewer believed that Roger had killed someone else's deer. Roger showed a video then of a deer in OK that showed him jumping 4 or 5 fences in the one video. Roger then asked the viewer, "Whose deer is it?" Good question.

The definition of "hunting" has changed drastically in the 30-40 years here in LA where I live. I don't like a lot of the changes, but as long as one abides by the laws and rules of their lease...what have I to say about it? Nothing. Not my business. It's like country music...lol. When I was younger and liked the music...George Jones, Merle Haggard, etc. was what I listened to. My wife likes this new stuff which does not even closely resemble what I consider CM. However, when we ride together I listen to it to keep the peace!

Mr. Jerry-I believe you told a little white one my Friend...you are a trophy hunter! Those are some nice deer. Might need to see if I can round up some of my kinfolk in Arkansas and see if any of them hunt and want to help a cuz out...lol.

Ruger77, I see similar attitudes here. Have for years. I've had other hunters/friends,tell me "I've got a stand in there", when I mention hunting a particular piece of real estate. Like them hanging a stand comes with some unwritten caveat. Not my problem. Folks here like to lay claim to hunting grounds by spending a weekend hanging stands. One buddy of mine will put out 13 or more a season. If you kill one of the deer he has on one of a dozen trail cameras,you killed "his" deer. It's worse now than ever since PA is turning in some really nice bucks.

Roger rolls the same way I do. If you want to name deer,and call them yours,better put them on a leash. I always liked him. I used to do some field testing of his scents and lures years ago. He's good people.

I'm a Hank Jr kind of guy myself. With a little Trace Adkins thrown in.

..."I guess he had killed it after it had jumped a low fence from another property and come to his stand and Roger killed it. The viewer believed that Roger had killed someone else's deer. Roger showed a video then of a deer in OK that showed him jumping 4 or 5 fences in the one video. Roger then asked the viewer, "Whose deer is it?" Good question. "...
Answer: the state owns the game, and a permit is required in most instances to ask permission to hunt it. From there, it is first permitted hunter wins. People lose sight of the reality of the situation.

Hey Ruug -

"Mr. Jerry-I believe you told a little white one my Friend...you are a trophy hunter! Those are some nice deer. Might need to see if I can round up some of my kinfolk in Arkansas and see if any of them hunt and want to help a cuz out...lol."

Thanks friend. " Let me be clear" , Trophy has more than 1 description depending on several things. In a sense every 'deer' could be considered a trophy. Right where I'm living now but in the 60s-70s there were NO deer. I well remember my Dad saying, "the sight of a deer track would draw a crowd!" Let me tell you any deer killed was a trophy, legal or not.

NOW I've had deer in my FRONT yard and anywhere in the community. So killing 'deer' or bucks is NOT such a rare event.

Earlier when I said, "I'm not a trophy hunter" I was referring to any B & C trophy (45 yrs and 0 B&C racks). OTOH, yes, I have boxes full of antlers from the past and EACH one is a trophy even if it's small. Many of them, I can think back and some friend, or something different happened and it will bring a smile to my face.

Thanks Again

Jerry

Interesting tag soup is what I got yesterday. Wife wanted to leave to be back home the last day of season, before dark. She hunted that morning and so did I, hoping we would see a cull for the tag. I stayed our from 630am to almost 2pm, and saw a particular 3 year old 4 point that needed to go 10 times. NEVER ever stopped when walking through openings 250 to 320 yards out.
In the meantime I lost count of how many middle aged 8s and 10s I saw, all within easy range and standing still.

I just won't kill the promising ones...

As it was I"m sure I could have finally filled the last tag if we hadn't left early.

It is what it is, and I manage the deer like I would a cattle herd or anything similar to the best of my ability, not to simply just shoot and kill.

YMMV and thats always cool. I just want to hunt with like minded people, simple and no insult intended. Sure need to get two non minded people off our lease right now and it would be about perfect..

Jeff

and what does the book mean... nothing... you might live in an area mostly incapable. In a great area a minimum book deer could be had numerous times.

As long as you are doing what the herd needs and YOU are happy, what more could one want? Screw the book. Screw inches. Its all over rated.

Fortunately, using old guns/open sights etc etc, is an excuse for shooting 'young' critters.

You know, 'look, I shot a spike with a 157 year old Winchester in Montana, and I rock. Just ask Mike Venturino.'

Did you say that ?

Jerry

I like to shoot bigger buck and generally pass on anything less than a near or better than 20 inch wide 8 point. I do this to get more days in the field. To me a meat deer is a medium sized doe.

I like to shoot bigger bucks and generally pass on anything less than a near or better than 20 inch wide 8 point. I do this to get more days in the field. To me a meat deer is a medium sized doe.

Same here.
I hunt in some areas where doe tags aren't available (or are a limited-draw type thing) so it's the only option if you want venison.
But I've never quite understood why folks would shoot a toy buck if they have access to a doe tag.

Doe tags are only available to landowners with 50 acres or more in my DMU. If you didn't qualify as a landowner and hunted state land here, you might understand someone shooting a young buck a little better. Overall statewide hunter success rate on bucks runs around 16%. On state land I'd bet money it's less than 10%. Combine that with the fact that you'll be sharing the woods with many other hunters who'll shoot the first legal buck they see {meaning "mature" bucks are damn few and far between} and you'll likely get used to tag soup more seasons than not if you get too picky.

Listening to people who hunt Texas leases talk about how they "hunt" deer, is a whole lot like Rosie O'donnell bitching about sexual harassment! Please !!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, that leave me out. I've never hunted in Tx. I probably couldn't afford it.

Jerry

Texas is a cool place.. They do things differently than other states, but it is still fun.. Can't wait too go back.. Many might think it unsporting to hunt with dogs or drive deer, it is the way it is done.. I would love to try an old southern dog hunt.. Now in many states it is popular to watch food plots from heated blinds.. Hunting???

I have nothing against Texas hunting, or what they claim "hunting is", but for Gods sake watching over a corn fed herd going through a photo album of deer to make sure "ole lighting" is old enough to "harvest" , and then telling someone in Michigan to shoot a doe, instead of a six point is like, putting winter tires on a Prius, and having them mount them at a Starbucks!

Did you ever read Robert Ruark's book, "The old man and the boy" and his first deer hunt with dogs ? I can damn near see that buck crashing by....

A lot depends on where you hunt I guess. Earlier one respondent indicated looking over 300-400 deer before selecting a target. I’ve been hunting 35-40 years and probably haven’t seen more than50-60 deer while hunting seasonwas in effect. There have been many seasons where none of my party saw a deer . Fortunately that’s getting better the last 10 years. But match that with the fact that you may only have a few seconds to shoot you tend to shoot the first legal buck.

come up to Virginia and hunt where there are very few 20" 8pt and your standards will change in a few years.some seasons we're lucky to see over one or 2 nice bucks.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing you glassed 3-400 mule deer bucks in a single season, let alone had to pass that many before finding the one that was "mature enough". I do agree with you on the watching hunting shows. we don't watch TV at our house aside from movies I guess though either.



Around here we have a lot of nonresident hunters that come to hunt, and we have a lot of deer (mostly Whitetails). now I'm going to speak broadly here and you may be the exception and I realize that. I'm making the following statements off of what I have seen and conversations I've had with nonresident hunters. we have a lot of deer in that 2-3.5 year old range and at first glance they look good. now bring in the nonres hunters who bring their standards from where they are from with them. in MN or MI a 3.5 year old deer is a rare trophy (in many areas) and would probably score around 100"-120" give or take. a nice buck for sure, BUT around here deer like that are not uncommon. they aren't behind every tree, but it's no hard feat to see a couple a day. Most of the folks I know local are pretty selective on what they shoot. it doesn't have to be a monster, but we have a pool we can be selective with. our tags are valid for both does and bucks typically unless it is an antlerless only tag. usually if we don't find a buck we like, we'll shoot a doe or a spike buck for meat. nonresident hunters based on what I have seen and experienced will shoot the biggest deer they can find, sometimes on the last day so they go home with some antlers to make the trip worth it. I've heard the same hunters who as a group do this year after year, on the same ground, and then complain there aren't any "big" bucks around. I believe anyone can shoot what they want, although it is frustrating to see promising deer that I have passed on hoping they get bigger, only to have some out of stater come and pop it because that's big where they come from. I understand it, I grew up in MN where you were lucky to get a buck of any size, so a 3 year old buck was a real big deal back in the 80's and 90's. For all I know it still is, but I hear it's getting better. There are lots of factors to consider when it comes to picking what deer to shoot. I have no problem with the meat hunter, or the trophy hunter. I've been both at times and often will be both in a single season. yes I hunt for meat, but I also like to see if I can get a mature deer if possible. I respect peoples decisions and appreciate the same respect in return. For example: when a meat hunter sees two bucks side by side and one is a spike and the other is a basket rack, which one do you think gets shot first?

Thanks you made me laugh

Around here we have a lot of nonresident hunters that come to hunt, and we have a lot of deer (mostly Whitetails). now I'm going to speak broadly here and you may be the exception and I realize that. I'm making the following statements off of what I have seen and conversations I've had with nonresident hunters. we have a lot of deer in that 2-3.5 year old range and at first glance they look good. now bring in the nonres hunters who bring their standards from where they are from with them. in MN or MI a 3.5 year old deer is a rare trophy (in many areas) and would probably score around 100"-120" give or take. a nice buck for sure, BUT around here deer like that are not uncommon. they aren't behind every tree, but it's no hard feat to see a couple a day. Most of the folks I know local are pretty selective on what they shoot. it doesn't have to be a monster, but we have a pool we can be selective with. our tags are valid for both does and bucks typically unless it is an antlerless only tag. usually if we don't find a buck we like, we'll shoot a doe or a spike buck for meat. nonresident hunters based on what I have seen and experienced will shoot the biggest deer they can find, sometimes on the last day so they go home with some antlers to make the trip worth it. I've heard the same hunters who as a group do this year after year, on the same ground, and then complain there aren't any "big" bucks around. I believe anyone can shoot what they want, although it is frustrating to see promising deer that I have passed on hoping they get bigger, only to have some out of stater come and pop it because that's big where they come from. I understand it, I grew up in MN where you were lucky to get a buck of any size, so a 3 year old buck was a real big deal back in the 80's and 90's. For all I know it still is, but I hear it's getting better. There are lots of factors to consider when it comes to picking what deer to shoot. I have no problem with the meat hunter, or the trophy hunter. I've been both at times and often will be both in a single season. yes I hunt for meat, but I also like to see if I can get a mature deer if possible. I respect peoples decisions and appreciate the same respect in return. For example: when a meat hunter sees two bucks side by side and one is a spike and the other is a basket rack, which one do you think gets shot first?


I have to pretty much agree with what you wrote here. As deer have become more available here and I have retired and able to spend more than a weekend or two hunting I find myself a bit more selective, and would much prefer to collect a doethan a small buck. I will admit however that I still get a little thin skinned when I hear a so-called trophy hunter berating someone that shot a smaller deer. I mean for goodness sakes get a life, they are just deer and it makes about as much sense as rabbit hunting and stressing on shooting only rabbits that have ears 3.5 inches or longer. It’s sort of the same thing as someone going fishing and keeping 3 or 4 bass to eat. The tournament fishermen will have a cussing fit.

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