With apologies to the original author of the word "calmly" in the title - I think it was part of a title from John B that I'm recalling.

I read the 24 Hour thread on minimum elk cartridge and the link to the Rokslide discussion on using target bullets on game, all 250+ posts. Very interesting post. Form D provided much of the discussion and his opinions backed by data – a rather refreshing approach.

It seems there is 2 camps: those that want maximum damage and possibly bullet fragmentation, and those who want maximum bullet integrity and penetration. I found the thread on use of target bullets very interesting and led me to consider my own thoughts. Quite unintendingly, I’ve migrated to monos – 150 etips in my 308, 129 LRX in my 270, 185 TTSX in my 338 Fed. This wasn’t entirely intentional. I tend to default to 2 bullet holes in the hide and penetration side of the debate, especially for things bigger than deer.

What I’m chewing on is the concept of permanent wound channel. I have my own empirical evidence of this. I’ve killed a few animals with monos and some are still alive when I get to them 5+ minutes later. Last years cow elk was still alive when I got to her and shot her again for good measure even though she wasn’t getting up. I had a much “worse” incident 15 years or so ago with a WT doe and a 25-06/100 TSX where she simply stood there for a couple mins, then laid down, finally died but likely took 3-4-5 minutes. I’ve also tracked more than a few deer for my dad using a 7 SAUM/140 TSX. Internal trauma is usually less than I'd expect. I’ve had 3 animals run uphill quite a ways, 100 yards or so, after being plunked through the lungs with a mono. Last years cow ran up a steep hill for ~ 100 yards, then hung a left a ran parallel to the hill before laying down.

Thinking through this a bit, I’m a bit unnerved by it frankly. I’ve shot a pile of deer with a homemade recurve, wood arrows, and 2 blade cut-on-impact broadheads (Zwickey FYI). It ain’t foot pounds of energy that kills animals, its massive trauma to blood carrying vessels and/or central nervous system that kills them. I’m also not convinced a large caliber, high velocity rifle is the answer either – I’ve shot enough things with various 300 and 338 magnums and haven’t noticed a big difference in how quickly things died with a hole plunked through both lungs. All this to say, animals seem to react about the same when drilled through the lungs with a broadhead or a 338 WM. Bones are a different story.

We have a bunch of excellent bullets these days, which in my mind has lowered the floor on what constitutes a minimum elk/similar game cartridge. But I think a key take away from the rokslide thread is the concept of permanent wound channel. Which begs the question of narrow, deep wound channels. I’m not sure I agree that a small hole through the lungs is equivalent to a larger hole. A fieldpoint through the lungs of a deer is a piss poor killer – I’m not going to elaborate other than to say it wasn’t me.

Instead of thinking about cartridge/bullet minimums, maybe the better question is how big is the permanent wound channel and how deep does the bullet penetrate. Is the combination of permanent wound channel and penetration adequate for my intended application at other than optimal angles (i.e. quartering to/away)?

I am curious what camp you all fall in with respect to animals bigger than deer - fragmentation or 2 holes/penetration? What bullet do you use given your fragmentation/penetration philosophy?

2 holes/penetration. I would use Nosler Partitions, Swift A-Frames, North Forks in my elk rifles.

Being fortunate to hunt elk for over two decades, I have been a part of the post mortem of over 50 elk, of which 90% were cows. Like many, I began with magnum calibers because authors and fellow hunters said it was necessary. This meant I hauled out either a 300 Win Mag, a 300 WSM or a 338 Win Mag.. But after watching other cows goto to the meat shed from hunters using 308's and 270' with cup and core bullets, I began to change my mind. After my own streak of 19 cows and 3 bulls, I am convinced that a reasonably constructed bullet, well placed will do the job. Personally I hand loaded most everything with a Partition and cannot fault its performance at all. The last bull was taken quickly with a 6.5 CM using a 143 gr ELD-X at 115 yards. This year I plan to use a 7x57 with a 140/150 grain Partition. As often repeated here, success comes with proper placement. But use what you are confident with as a mountain rodeo is never a good thing.

Personally I think an exit wound is optimal as it provides for two sources of blood evidence. The quicker the animal loses blood pressure the better. The goal should be a quick clean kill to ensure fast recovery and optimal meat condition.

I used to shoot accubonds. The last six or seven animals, two of which were elk, I used 140gr amax's or eldm's.

I've seen the difference with my own eyes. Put me in the match bullet camp.

Your experience mimics what I have seen. I’ve used about every kind of bullet made and the animals that expired the quickest were those with massive internal damage. There is something to be said for exit holes and external blood loss, but severe damage to the heart or lungs certainly puts them down in a hurry. I still use mono’s in some rifles, but looking back over too many years, heavy for caliber c&c bullets have performed awfully well.

The majority of my elk kills have been with bow, first elk tag I ever had was archery in 1984. My rifles have killed about 60, more cows than bulls, I've taken a bunch of family and friends using my equipment.

Started with my 3006 and original barnes 165s, then TSX when they came out. It's killed up to 4 elk in one season. Only 2 poorly hit animals have moved from the spot, a couple were still alive but not going anywhere.

I did a concrete job for a guy that had a ruger 338, he was a big guy but afraid of the recoil, we made a deal for the rifle as part of the payment. I put a muzzlebrake on it and it was a shooter. First year it killed 4 elk, 3 cows and a bull, closest was 40 yards and longest was 275. I had bought winchester power points, they shot great... not one of those elk went down at the spot, the 40yd perfect standing lung shot acted like it was missed and trotted off. Loaded the brass with TSX 185 and back to DRT but no different than the 3006. My nephew killed his first elk with it when he was 12 and another at 14, I gave it to him when he was 21 and graduated the police academy.

Last 15 years it's been the 708 with 120gr BT, it's just an elk killer, vitals or shoulders, puts them on the ground... I want to see the animal on the ground, not chase after it.

I did kill a cow in January and went back to the 3006 and now loading TTSX, 320yds DRT through the lungs. Sometimes nostalgia rules.

When I had a 270 for my coues gun I had a few youth hunters shoot cows with the 150 NPT, it was meh...

I also killed a cow with my savage 99 308 and 150gr GMX, another nostalgic moment. My first rifle I bought with my summer ranching money and killed all my deer with for 15 years was a 99 in 308.

Kent

I can't speak for elk but holy cow I'm happy I haven't had those experiencnes with monos on deer, OP.

Hunting elk 57 years, I have killed elk with a .308, 44 mag, 30-30, 45-70, 7 Rem Mag, 30-06, and 50 cal ML, all except the 30-06 and 50 cal ML with standard C&C bullets . Probably about 50 total. I really can't say I saw much of a difference in how they died, both bulls and cows . Most with a 30-06 using 180 gr Game Kings, 220 gr Sierra Round nose, and 180 gr Nolser partitions. More with the 220 gr RN and they gave the most consistent kills with the bullet found on the off side under the hide. I have never used a mono bullet.

My biggest bull was with the 180 gr GK, base of neck shot, and it dropped on the spot. I have had few pass thrus with the Partition, although I have killed probably less than a dozen elk with them. I used them because SPS was selling overuns for $13/box.

As a comparison, using a 50 cal muzzle loader, 348 gr Power belt, 80 gr of BH 209, I have found them under the hide on the far side also. With a ML,I strive for a double lung shot.

Comparing a 165 gr GK in a 7 rem mag and a 180gr GK in the 30-06, both had about the same amount of destruction lung tissue. Many had core and jacket separation.They did not die any faster than elk killed with the 180 gr partition or 220 gr RN.

I prefer the finding the bullet on the off side under the hide rather than a full pass thru. Other than giving two holes for more blood, that bullet as it continues on it's way gives you nothing. A fallacy of that is if the hit is high or even midway, the body cavity still has fill with a certain amount of blood before it leaks out of those two holes. JMHO

Two thoughts: First, for the fragmentation crowd, how do you feel about less than broadside shots? Shoulder bones? Second, the 7mm-08 raises it head again. I know several other Campfire folks whom I respect also use the 7-08. Same question: what is your experience with major bones and 120-140 grain bullets?

To me, this is the acid test question. Alot of bullets will work on dead broadside shots, but angles and bones add another element that need considered. For me, I've killed 10-11 elk and most have been classic broadside or close to it. At least a couple have not - 1 full frontal, 1 quarter to. 270/150 Part on the frontal, 300WSM/180 Part on quarter to. Two dead elk.

I had a similar experience with deer and monos, and I'm subscribing to the theory of good expanding bullets doing damage to vital organs/CNS. My elk experience with mono's was very positive but I'm not that sold on them. Kudos to those of you who are. My eyes and own experiences don't lie to me.

Where are you hitting these deer, and with what?

Expansion, at least with the monos I've used and the speeds they are used at, hasn't really been much different from lead cored bullets. And stopping the heart is stopping the heart. Same with collapsed lungs.

Lighter 30 cal and 6.5mm seems to kill really the same as anything else. Last one I hit with a lead bullet that wasn't a spine shot was a 308 Win with a 165 Fusion that took out the bottom of its heart and it ran 100 yards leaving a giant blood trail and bone chips floating in puddles.

Ive taken a hard quartering towards shot. Aimed for the point of the shoulder. Impact was very near muzzle velocity. Shoulder was completely shattered, and elk died within 20yds. 140gr eldm. The scapula is not what I would consider a difficult barrier.

Few years back I shot a nice mule deer buck with 30-06 and 165 gr Barnes TSX, the shot was 180 yards away, after the first shot the buck just stood there, I shot again and he barely moved, I reached for friends 6.5 loaded with soft point bullets and aimed just behind the shoulder, at the shot the buck dropped like a rock. When we got to the buck he had a decent hole right at the shoulder and huge hole on the other side of the opposite shoulder made by two Barnes 165 TSX. Both of my shots hit where I aimed broke both shoulders but went clear through without doing any internal damage. The soft point bullet killed it on the spot. After that I started using Nosler Partition bullets. I have a planned elk hunt this fall and due to my shoulder injury I was intending to use 7mm-08 with Barnes 120 TTSX, have any of you used this combo on cow elk. I was wondering if TTSX expand better than TSX.

I agree on the scapula itself but the big knuckle at the humerous-should blade joint is not dainty. You shot through that big knuckle? Did the bullet penetrate through that joint and into the lungs, or bone shards?

Thanks for humoring me.

For me, I don’t care too much about the two holes part, but I like a widely expanding bullet which destroys a pile of stuff. Although I haven’t had too much drama with anything I’ve used from Accubonds, PT’s, Bitterroot Bonded, Hornady ELDx, Scirroccos, and some others.

Fun question that will raise a lot of opinions. I prefer 2 holes for easy blood trailing. I have killed elk with a 280, 7mm-08, 30-06, 338Fed, 338WM, 375HH and a 54cal ML. I have used both C&C and monos. I really have not seen much difference on double lung shots no matter the bullet or cartridge and is the reason the magnums got sold. The only one that went down immediatly was a rag horn with my 30-06 and a 180gr Failsafe (miss those bullets!) that took out both front shoulders. I still have that bullet as it was recovered just under the hide in a picture perfect mushroom. That experience has recently changed where I aim on any game animal. I tend to use monos or bonded bullets and aim so I take out at lease one shoulder. I know it will damage some meat but I should get two holes and hamper the animal's ability to go a long ways after the shot.

The largest number of elk I packed out were shot with 30cal 165gr Hornady Interlocks. The elk I've shot were with 150gr Rem Corelock ammo in 270win and 180gr Fed Hi-Shok in 30-06 as well as 50 cal 320gr Maxi-Balls.

I have no idea if the center fire rounds passed through or terminated inside the elk. The big 50cal bullets absolutely passed clean through. Except for the spine hits, all animals ran 20 to 30 yards and fell. The center fire hit elk took a few minutes and a final shot to die. The elk I shot with the cap-lock fell dead.

Such is the limit of my experience.

You mean we are 2 pages into this thread and not 1 pissing match yet? Lets keep it that way - this is informative. <G>

I shot my first elk back in 1966 with a borrowed .30-40 Krag and whatever factory bullets my Uncle gave me with that rifle. 13 hits later that bull was finally on the ground...2 bullets through the antlers, 3 bullets creased the hair on the top of his back, and 7 more in various places until he finally stopped broadside about 50 yards from me and I put one just behind his shoulder. The best thing that I learned from that "hunt" was to not aim for the head when the animal is so far away that the bead front sight completely covers the elk.

I shot my next 8 elk with my scoped .30-06 shooting 150 grain Hornady or 180 grain Sierra cup and core bullets. All were shot just behind their shoulders and most were one shot kills. None of those bullets completely penetrated the animals.

My next elk was a big 6x6 bull that I shot in Montana's Absaroka Wilderness while I was on my first DIY, solo Unlimited tag bighorn sheep hunt. My rifle on that hunt was my .257 Ackley that I had built for deer size animals. This bull stopped broadside about 75 yards from me and simply dropped dead where was standing when my little 117 grain Sierra Gameking bullet hit him. That bullet hit a rib just behind his shoulder and bullet and bone fragments litterly shattered his lungs and heart, and didn't cut the rib cage on the off side.

When I built my .257 Ackley I also had my .30-06 re-chambered to .30 Gibbs. With the increased velocity of the Gibbs I switched to 180 grain Nosler Partition bullets, and I shot my next 20 or so elk, and 2 Sirias bull moose, with that combination. All were broadside, just behind the the shoulder shots, and most were one shot kills. I found most of those Partition bullets just under the bulls hides on the off shoulder.

In 1973 I also killed an elk with my Herter's recurve bow and a Fred Bear broadhead. It was a 10 yard spot and stalk shot with the arrow entering just behind the bull's shoulder and the point exiting just behind his off shoulder. When he ran through the thick oak brush both ends of the arrow broke off, leaving about a foot of the shaft in his lungs. I wouldn't call a broadhead slicing through an animal's lungs "massave trauma" compared to the large, bloodshot wound channel that a high velocity, high energy bullet would make with the same shot. My arrow shot elk simply drowned in his own blood.

It's energy that drives the arrow or bullet deep into or through the animal.

In recent years I've killed 2 elk with my .300 Weatherby and a Barnes 168 grain TSX bullet and a 168 grain Barnes TTSX bullet. The first bull was about a 100 yard broadside shot that entered just behind his left shoulder and exited behind his right shoulder. He ran 3 steps spraying blood 10' from each hole and collapsed, dead. I was supprised at the small amount of blood damaged meat compared to damaged area from the Partition bullets of my previous elk.

This first pic shows the TSX bullet entrance hole through the hide and into the chest cavity, and the second pic shows the exit holes of that bullet.


When I shot the second bull with my .300 Wby, I didn't follow my personal rule of "not shooting an animal that I want to eat in the shoulder". Because TSX bullet made so little meat damage on the bull that I killed with it, and the only shot that the second bull gave me was a front quartering shot, I shot him on the point of his shoulder. It was also only about a 100 yard shot. The TTSX bullet hit and shattered his upper front leg bone just below the shoulder blade, completley bloodshot about half of his shoulder meat, continued through most of his body, and stopped just under the hide of his off side ham.

I continue to use cup and core bullets for hunting with my .257 Ackley and 7mm Rem mag rifles, but just about all of the animals that I've shot with my .300 Weatherby and my .375 RUM were with either Barnes or Hammer mono copper bullets.

IME with Barnes you need to hit bones or CNS for DRT. Hitting behind the shoulder (classic heart/lung shot) is not going to anchor elk or deer because monos expand less than conventional bullets. With a smaller frontal area you have less permanent wound channel. However, monos offer more penetration.
You can still get the same lethality but just have to realize that you are using a different tool and place your shots accordingly.

I like Ken's way of thinking on this. 2 bullet holes, or complete pass throughs. I also used the 180gr Nosler partitions in both the 30-06 and 300wizzums, bullets always found in the offside hide. No bueno. Stepped up to the 200gr partition and got pass throughs and destruction (internal damage), resulting in elk on the ground on the spot. Even one small bull I shot that was walking toward me, took a 200 to the chest and the bullet made its way through 1/2 the elk and penetrated. Bull dropped on the spot. That bullet also works great on deer.

I can think of about twenty head of game Ive taken with the TSX and TTSX bullets. They ranged from 7mm (284) to 30 cal (30/06) to 340 Wby to the 375 H&H and from 140-gr to 168-gr to 210 to 270 in the 375. Muzzle velocities ranged from 3100 (284 Win) to 2850 (30/06) to 3100 (340), and about 2750 (375).

Game from smallest to largest was a nice whitetail buck to 6x6 bull elk and probably a heavier Burchell’s zebra. Included in the sample was a black bear, a heavy old mule deer buck, a kudu with most of the other plains game antelope, and a bunch of bull elk.

As I remember back, all were broadside shots except two. The exceptions were the big mule deer buck that got up from his bed and was taken right under the chin. The 140-gr TTSX coursed the length of his body and was found by his scrotum. So maybe 4’. The other was the black (blonde) bear that was a quartering away shot.

That mule deer bullet was one of three ever found out of the twenty. The second was under the off-side hide of a waterbuck, have first broken an unnoticed finger-sized branch about ten feet in front of him. It stay on course but flying sideways still penetrated the bucks chest. The third was from the offside hide of the big mare zebra, having broken her “shoulder blade” on entry.

Ranges ranged from ~ 100 yds to near 500 yds, lasered or walked off

These bullets were uniformly the most accurate bullet from my assorted rifles. The 284 hand loads would go under 3” inches at 400 yds for three shots and I shot several 100 yd less than half inch groups for three with the 375. The 30/06 was likewise accurate. The 340 lagged behind these a bit but but was easily good enough to 500 yds.

There are a lot of good bullets out there but when I found these Barnes’ bullets I was finished looking.

I was calm while I wrote this…

For elk and other bigger sized game I want a tough bullet that holds together and gives me 2 holes. I’ve been using the TSX/TTSX for years and of the last 4 big game animals I’ve shot not 1 took a single “real step” after being hit. 1 froze for several seconds which, if it wasn’t 15 feet away and spilling blood, would’ve led me to think I missed (I never miss 😀) until it’s legs just went out from under him. The other 3 literally just collapsed and kicked for 20 seconds. I’ve yet to track a big game animal that’s been hit well with a mono of appropriate size.

Comparing the effects of a 130gr TTSX from a .308 to a 100gr .257 is not an apples to apples comparison or indicator of terminal effectiveness of the bigger monos.

We all have developed our own thoughts and preferences based upon our experiences with various bullets….ultimately there are very few wrong answers anymore concerning bullet choice since most all big game bullets are pretty damn good these days.

For big boned, big muscle game like elk, moose and big bears I want a tough bullet and a better than not chance of complete penetration and a better blood trail. My 338wm gets either 210 TTSX or 225 Trophy Bonded Bearclaws or Swift A-Frames…. I got a complete pass through on a 537 yard shot on a cow elk in NE Utah using the 225 Trophy Bonded Bearclaw. Out of my 20” 338 I’m getting around 2675fps so not blistering speeds but with deadly results.

Do any of you guys purposely shoot for a shoulder hit on bull elk to anchor it on the spot? Talking .30-06 168 TTSX. Yes, I know there will be some meat loss.

8mm 180gr Barnes TSX & 338 200gr Nosler Ballistic Silvertip

Recovered 284 140-gr TTSX mule deer bullet:



Recovered zebra 375 270 TSX:



375 270-gr TSX bullet from waterbuck:

YES! There have been times, most recently on a BIG heavy bodied mule deer, where I wanted to anchor it so that it didn’t go over the edge. The big mule deer and I were at spitting distance but a couple feet behind him was a “cliff” that dropped more than 1,000’ straight down….there was no slope whatsoever, it was STRAIGHT down into the clouds. I actually had to dance with him a little so that I could angle the bullet to take out both shoulders hoping he wouldn’t kick himself off the ledge. The shot surprised me and was ideal, it took out both shoulder sockets and he dropped instantly, kicked once and expired. I had to struggle to move him further from the edge because it gave me the heeby jeebies being close to the edge. 😀. That was another one down to the .308 with 168gr TSX but the distance was only maybe 10 or 12 feet. In fact I recall the last 3 or 4 deer I’ve killed were at less than 16 feet and the last 2 elk were under 30 feet…

I’d do (and have done) exactly the same thing if it was an elk that needed to be anchored instead of a big mulie. 👍🏼

Yes for the same reason Aces said and on both deer and elk. I dont use Barnes bullets however.

What bullet do you prefer? With modern metallurgy and technology it’s tough to get a “bad” HUNTING bullet. I emphasize hunting because I am not one that uses target bullets for hunting big game. I’m sure that many target bullets will kill if put into the right spot but with the great choices of hunting bullets today I see absolutely NO reason to use target bullets for hunting. All my hunting rifles are sub MOA with their favored rounds which is more than adequate for big game. I won’t choose a target bullet that shoots into .5MOA over a hunting bullet that shoots into 1MOA because it does NOT matter at all sane distances.

Great thread so far..

I have never lost an animal with Barnes bullets but not one of them died instantly, Barnes will anchor the animal but as you mention shoulder shot will require meat loss so I'll rather shoot Nosler Partition and go for the lungs.

Bwinters: Careful placement of a 160 grain Nosler Partition from my 7m/m Remington Magnum into the heart/lungs area of Elk seems to result in a one shot kill every time!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I wouldn't bet against that combo! I have 3-400, 7mm 160 gr Partitions on my reloading bench. All I need is a 7mm cartridge and rifle.

Dangerous situation big fella!

Ace, I use partitions sometimes Accubonds. I have several nice custom barrels. When they were completed, the gunsmith told me the barrel man would not guarantee his barrels if Barnes were shot in them do to the heavy copper fouling. So I don't bother with them no need with Nosler, now the story may be different these rifles were done over 25 years ago.

Yes, the story is different over 25 years later. The grooved TSX bullet solved the fouling problem, because they don't foul barrels any more than jacketed lead-cores.

I absolutely shoot for shoulders. The 120gr BT has no problem. My brother shot a large cow elk at 220yds in the shoulder at my recommendation, she went over sideways like a piece of plywood.

I have also had the 'freeze' with TSX, but they eventually went straight down not taking a step, shooting through the vitals, dead on their feet.

Kent

On a bull elk, yep. All my life I have been by nature, risk averse. For that reason I cannot comprehend why folks fuss over the “minimum” caliber for elk in the other thread…unless we’re talking about a cow elk hunt. A mature bull is a tough animal. Wound one and as others have said on this website, it’s off to the races then.

For that reason, I keep things simple. Sako 338 loaded with 225 grain North Forks. I feel I am adequately prepared for when things don’t go “perfect”. In postmortem interviews all elk have said they thought they were struck by lightning, or something to that effect.

I was poisoned on early monos out of a 270 for WT. Penciled through. Would turn into tracking rodeos.

Went back to heavy for caliber c&c, then partitions. No more rodeos. Killed my first few elk with bergers, then accubonds and a few with 200 gr eldx. Now onto terminal ascents. They knock the life out of elk.

I guess I probably won't go back to monos.

Big fan of ttsx!
168 ttsx out of 06, 130 in 270. Both have taken elk down with ease. From 25 yards to 400 something yards.
My only con, is they are not the cheapest to shoot in off season. For range time I got some game kings and they are top notch bullet for the price on paper and elk. Took them on a cow hunt, Shot a cow elk in back from close range. Perfect mushroom, stayed together from up close in a hot load, found under the hide.
Pic of 180 grain Game kings . 123 gr.

Elk ttsx

My elk experience is very shallow compared to others here.
But this isn't art, it is science.


Penetration vs expansion?

Penetration is vastly more important.
A FMJ or hardcast bullet will kill through penetration with 0 expansion.
Period.
Well, except it may kill quite slowly.

An expanding bullet will not kill without penetration.
Period.

You have three choices.
Lean one way, sacrifice on the other.
The opposite.

Go right down the middle, get much of both while sacrifice a little on both edges.

I love Partitions.
What they sacrifice on the edges is not consequential.


Will say they are slower killers on deer, but most bullets will fully penetrate
our deer...another thread.

Yeah but have you priced Partitions lately? They make Barnes look cheap.

I don’t require, demand or really even want two holes, so the ultra tough or deep penetrating bullets aren’t terribly interesting to me. I also don’t like highly fragmenting bullets, though for straight lung shots they’re generally OK.
For elk, I like something in the middle. Old style Speer Grand Slams are my absolute favorite. Accubonds and partitions are good too, though I have never been impressed by Nosler’s accuracy. The heavier Speer hot cors are about like Noslers…..awesome killers and accurate enough, but not terribly so.

One day I need to try Sciroccos, Bear Claws, etc.

Some fragments of bullets from critters we shot last year as you can see the TSX stayed together better than most, cup and core, we normally don't recover a lot of classic mushroom bullets, we kill more than a few critters that will weigh over 600# live weight and that's where we catch most of our fragments. YMMV Rio7

I need to try the new Grand Slams I believe. Gunner has been torturing them pretty good and they've held up real well. The price on them is really damned good as well.

Stupid $$
Try the spitzer game kings. Well worth it

Deleted post! memtb

As a new elk hunter, I really appreciate this thread! thanks all for the great info.

I wish I had this thread when I first started elk hunting 25+ years ago. If I did, I wouldn't have shown up with a 9.5lb 338 WM shooting 250's as fast as I could make them go - and thinking I may be undergunned.........

TFF…. I don’t think you’re alone in suffering the mindset of youth, I certainly suffered the same ailment as you in my younger years. I do believe that we cared enough about the animals we hunted to use enough gun and that was a contributing factor in our choice of cannons in the early years. As we progress through the process of maturing in our outdoor endeavors our philosophies often change too. When I was younger I wanted enough gun to anchor the bull in its tracks and I would NEVER have considered using a .243 or similar but through the years one understands the dynamic forces involved in killing and our past experiences might convey more patience which might allow us the luxury of waiting for a good presentation before squeezing the trigger….something (patience) that most youngsters don’t possess.

Nowadays with modern bullets and great factory ammo available there are endless choices of cartridges that are at least satisfactory for elk hunting. I think personally I would likely choose a 6.5 Creedmoore as my baseline minimum for an elk rifle BUT if all I had was a 22-250 or a 243 that was accurate and the distance was reasonable I would not hesitate to take the shot in proper conditions and I have no doubt that I’d be eating fresh elk backstraps that night.

Good luck.

Above I neglected to say that I took all my elk with the TSX/TTSX bullets with the exception of one taken with 45 Colt.

Since about 1978 I have used Nosler Partitions, Speer Grand Slams, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, Hornady Interbonds, and Nosler Accubonds roughly in that order thru the years. They all filled the freezer and put horns on the wall.

Started with a 7mm Rem Mag but switched to a .300 Win Mag about 20 years ago.

I have had very good luck the last 8 years or so on bulls with the 230 gr Berger OTM.

Did fill a cow tag two years ago with a 140 gr Berger VLDH out of a 6.5-.284. Worked great at 650 yds.

My little group of hunters has killed close to 200 elk in my life time. The majority have been with Partitions, AB's and misc. Magnum rifles dominate with the 7 and 300 mags, being the most frequent.

The bullet that works at the widest velocity range, that I've found, is the accubond. 2000 fps impact speed gets me out to well over 600 yards, with my 338 rum and 225 grain accubonds. And...that bullet is tough up close. I shot a NM bull oryx at 67 yards, broadside, right through the upper leg joint, coming to rest under the hide on the opposite side just behind the leg, after going through a rib bone. Impact velocity was over 2900 fps, and the recovered bullet weighed 133.5 grains. That's the "hardest" test I've done with one, up close, and it retained almost 60%. Other bullets that I've recovered (less than half of the time), from elk and African plains game, average more like 65-70%.

The elk that I've shot with .338 accubonds (about a dozen) die quickly. Usually, dropping within 10 yards of impact....and, it's one bullet that I can break shoulders with OR punch through the ribcage, and get great results with either location. From point blank to about 500 yards, under ideal conditions.

The wife and I have killed quite a few elk with 200 grain accubonds, while doing combo deer/elk hunts, out of the 300 win. They work great too, but seem to open more quickly, and shed more weight on average.....perhaps having thinner jackets than the .338s? That would make sense to me, because the .308 bullets could be used in slower velocity cartridges...?

Dedicated "black timber" elk rifles that I use, are larger diameter bullets, with heavier constructed bullets. Those shots average about 50 yards, and seldom broadside.

Andy3

My experience is the the Barnes TSX does better then the TTSX The plastic tips on the TTSX sometime come off to one side and cause the TTSX to turn into an L or J and the bullets then tumbles and goes off course inside the game more so then the TSX.
Others I have come to like are the Nosler Partitions and the Swift A-Frames. The Nosler and the Hornady Bonded bullet haver given a good track record too. Norma Oryx is good also.

Now it must be said that all bullets are tools to make holes. The hole should go clear through and in a fairly straight line.
As cartridge's have given us faster and faster velocities bullet integrity has become more and more of a problem. So higher velocity gives the advantage of less drop but can cause problems at ranges closer then about 250 yards which is the range most elk are killed inside of.

I am old enough to have killed elk for over 50 years in 7 different states. Many years I killed several elk in different states in a single year.
To add to this, I was a guide and so most years I'd see and be involved in the kills of 5-10 times more elk then I killed myself. Back when most guns shot bullets at 2400 to 2700 FPS and most elk hunters favored heavy for bore weight bullets the problem of break-ups was there, but fewer in percentage of kills than we see today. Such problems is exactly what led the various companies to start making super good bullets, Nosler has been around since 1949, but most other "premium bullets" are a relatively new developments.

But in the days when 180 and 220 grain 30-06, 150 grain Remington CL 270s, 180 grain 308s, 300 mags with 220 grain bullets and quite a lot of 300 Savage and 8MM Mausers were seen in elk camps, we had fewer problems because men were hunters more then just shooters and also hunting was easier with less land being restricted to hunting, and more game overall.

My very first elk was killed when I was a boy with an iron sighted 300 Savage with a 180 grain bullet and it did the job and exited. My uncle used a 30-06 with 220 grain bullets and never had a problem. One man I knew (Mr Murry) used a K98 Mauser he brought back himself from WW2 and killed all the deer and elk he every shot with 1 round per animal.

But the velocities of these round with the bullets they used was slow as compared to many we see today. 45-70s were also used and several magnum handguns shoot faster then the factory 45-70
So coming back to the OPs question; The bullet needs to fit the game and the range but also the impact velocity. With fast modern guns, a firmly believe in the very best and toughest bullets. But if you shoot an older cartridge and load the gun with ammo that gives slower MVs I believe the use of so-called premium bullet may not be as necessary as many believe. NOT THAT IT'S EVER VA BAD WAY TO GO! That's not what I am saying. But always remember, bullets are tools to make bullet holes. Once a good sized hole goes clear through and exits in a straight line, all the damage you can do is done. The idea is to make that hole. Any tool that does it is as good as any other.

Bullets do not actually kill.
Bullet holes kill!

Having killed elk and moose with both ends of the bullet spectrum - match bullets like the AM/ELD-M and monos like Barnes - it seems to me that if we remove shot distance from the equation and assume terminal performance as intended for each bullet style, using one style or the other is a way to reduce risk while making certain assumptions. Match bullets like the VLD and others seem to reduce the risk of the animal running after the shot (this can be useful when on a mountain cliff) with the assumption that a good shot angle will be available. Deep penetrators like the monos reduce the risk of wounding when shot angles are not ideal, with the assumption that running a bit after the shot (on a broadside, rib shot, for example) is not a problem.

Put another way, it seems that the mentality behind using match bullets is that the animal will go a shorter distance after the shot, with the risk of it going a long way with a difficult shot angle. The mentality of choosing monos seems to be to guarantee that the critter runs a medium distance after the shot, with the risk that a short run can be an issue. One caveat is that, IME, critters hit with monos often go straight down if you’re willing to smash some bone and lose some meat.

Introducing distance into the equation adds another set of trade-offs, in the sense that match bullets reduce the risk of poor bullet placement at long distance, while monos reduce the risk of the bullet not reaching the vitals on steeper shot angles up close. Another caveat is that, using high-SD match bullets like the Berger Hybrid, AM, and ELD-M, at moderate impact velocities, IME with shooting elk and moose up close and at difficult shot angles, these bullets have penetrated plenty to destroy the vitals. But there is a greater risk of the bullet coming apart and not reaching the vitals than with the monos.

Killed my first elk 50 years ago this fall using a 270 loaded with 150gr Nosler partitions. Killed several more with partitions in various calibers as the years passed, plus many others with various controlled expansion type bullets. I’m most definitely in the 2 hole, full penetration camp. This year I’ll be chasing bulls with my 7mm Mashburn, loaded with either an NPT or possibly a 169 Hammer Hunter.

I am in the complete penetration camp and prefer mono's.

Have shot small game to moose with traditional archery equipment. A broadhead is always better at killing than a field point.

Have shot and witnessed hundred's of game animals from turkeys to cape buffalo being killed.
Mono's, C&C, NP's, Bonded, Scenars and ELD-M's, Grand Slams.

Specifically, have seen/killed elk with traditional archery and 243-375 caliber and most everything in between.

To my knowledge we never lost an animal because of bullet failure. Poor shot placement yes, bullet performance no. Have seen some terminal bullet performance that made me go hmmmm though. From soft to hard construction bullet type.

Instances that jump out to me. A 243 shot elk that took three good shots, and took a disconcerting amount of time to give up the ghost, A few shot with 270's that did not realize they were hit. A 210gr TSX out of a 338-06 that destroyed the ball joint out of the shoulder, went through vitals and exited through the liver. A 375 H&H shot elk that went about 20 yards, Was visibly hit hard and rocked, was a tough 20 yards to cover.

Right now I have Scenar, ELD-X, Hornady Interlock, BT, NAB, NPt, GMX, LRX, TSX, and TTSX loaded for my rifles. Will not hesitate to grab any of them for hunting this fall. They will all do the job, if i do mine.

Of course I do not plan on using the 22-250 with Scenars, or the 222 with GMX's on elk. Probably could get the job done, but SD has a 243 minimum on elk.

Sierra Game Kings. Good old fashioned cup and core bullet that performs well. I like to launch them from a caliber that is way bigger than what I need to use. I could never understand the notion of using the absolute smallest cartridge that will kill whatever I'm after if I hit it absolutely perfect. Dead is dead and there is no need to make an animal run 20, 40 or 100 yards before they pile up... Hit them with something that makes them crumble where they stand!

Hornady knows exactly what eldm's do in tissue versus various barriers. They specifically test them. From their LE website "is specifically designed to meet FBI protocol and provide superior external ballistics when compared to standard 308 WIN offerings. The 147 gr. ELD Match bullet with Heat Shield tip delivers excellent terminal performance"

6.5 creed 147 ELDM TAP

Click on that link, scroll down and click on "gelatin". You will see test results with calibrated 10% ballistic gel and various mediums (heavy clothing, wallboard, plywood, auto glass). If you think that bullet won't kill an elk, you are completely misguided. The 308win 168gr eldm is impressive as well, but almost most impressive is the tiny 6mm arc with a 106gr eldm. Look at its results.....

With you. Went on my first elk hunt last year at 50yo. No elk but had a big time and we did get a muley. Have a muley tag this year but will apply for more elk tags in the future for sure.

That said, I had along my 30-06 with factory 180gr interlocks. Felt confident as my last group while dialing in (rock solid on a bench) was 1"....... at 200yds. That Tikka shoots!

That said, I see that Speer offers a 200gr HotCor. This strikes me as a pretty good all-purpose elk bullet at say 2650FPS or so and they are cheap to boot.

Am I on the right track? Not married to this or any other bullet so give me the truth, ugly or not.

I'd say so, practicing with affordable ammo you can effectively shoot and will perform as needed trumps spending money on overpriced ammo that you can't afford to practice with everytime.mb

After having killed somewhere around 20 species of big game with Barnes TSX or ttsx from springbok to eland in size and many many deer I’ve never seen an animal act as if it weren’t hit or fail to react from the shot. That’s perplexing. Maybe a bad lot of early bullets? I have only recovered a few. They ALL expanded and looked picture perfect. One did break all four petals off but it hit a large zebra stallion’s shoulder at nearly 2900fps impact velocity. I’ve also shot a lot of animals with cup and core, partitions, accubonds, gold dots (fusions) and Berger vld’s ( hunting and target) and eldm’s. On a broadside shot on elk I’d use any of the above and really wouldn’t care which one I had. But if it’s a strong angling shot give me a tougher bullet. Last time I hunted elk ( unsuccessfully) I had a 300win mag shooting 230 Berger OTM and I would have taken about any reasonable shot. But that’s a lot of bullet IMO.
Back to the TSX’s. Watched my cousin shoot a whitetail doe at nearly 200 yards broadside with a 30/06 w168tsx at a leisurely 2675fps muzzle velocity. She dropped instantly. I said “you musta shoulder shot her”. But it was a rear lung shot. I don’t remember the internal damage but I was shocked at how quickly it killed her.

I have killed elk, all bulls, with the 210 gr Partition and 185 gr TSX via 338-06, the 260 gr Partition via 375 H&H, the 225 gr TSX via 35 Whelen and the 140 gr TSX via 270 Win. I observed zero difference in performance.

The TTSX has worked faithfully for me over the years as did the TSX a couple times before. Several of my hunting partners switched to the TTSX after several tracking rodeos after observing I had none.

I can't be 100% certain, but I have probably killed more elk than75% of the posters here. Bulls and cows. Probably less than a dozen with partitions. Anywhere from 10 yards to 400 +yards. No super duper mono has ever passed thru any of my rifles. All cup and core. I have 1/2 pint jar almost full with bullet failures that I dug out of dead critters. Most with a 30-06. 180 gr to 220 gr Sierras.

My longest tracking job was when I drank the magnum Kool aid and thought a 7 mag could do more than non mags..

It is not what you hit them with, but where.

I've killed north of 20 bulls and north of 30 elk total. I used to be in the camp of "penetration" at all costs. First Nosler partitions....then Winchester Fail-Safes...then Barnes bullets.

I've come 180 degrees on this topic the last decade or so. Give me a bullet that breaks ups and causes the most cardiovascular damage possible. Don't care about two holes and tracking anymore. I like to see them wobble about 10 yards and fall over...which is what i generally get with ELD-Xs, Tipped Match Kings, Bergers, and the like.

The more frangible bullets also generally get better accuracy...and definitely get better wind-bucking abilities.

My choice in chamberings has also evolved. I used to hunt with .300 Weatherby's and Winchesters exclusively. I prefer much less gun these days as they generally weigh less, that always kick less, and they cost much less to practice with.

Last year I killed my first bull with an 88 grain ELD-M from my 22-250 and the second with my .280ai and a 162 ELD-X. Saw very little difference honestly.

Just one guy's thoughts and worth what you paid for them.

Dave

This post nailed it

I remember the exceptionally well done write up of that hunt.

Honest question, do you have confidence in these "softer" bullets to break heavy shoulder bones and complete the job?

I ask as a new to elk hunting guy knowing my opportunities will be few.

OGB,

Thanks for the kind words. While I am not the definitive word on this topic, I am indeed confident in the "softer" bullets smashing bones...especially when "heavy-for-caliber" approach is used. You're probably not getting two holes in that situation, but I'm confident in them getting through one side of bones and into the lungs/heart which is all that matters. My experience the last few years tells me that the "soft" bullets of today are tougher than the "soft" bullets I started with 35 years ago. Just a hunch and not one that I can prove.

The 88s in the 22-250 made me a bit nervous for sure, but I hit bones on the deer and the bull with it last year and things worked out okay. Neither made it more than 30 yards. I won't be making a habit of the 22-250, even with the 88s because a quartering-to shot through the front shoulder joint of a bull would probably be asking a bit too much. Step up to a heavy-for-caliber 6.5mm, 7mm, or .30 cal though and I'd not sweat any of the frangible bullets in a "heavy" bullet.

The most for the least is the 143 ELD-X imho. Great BC, good accuracy, inexpensive, frangible enough to wreck the soft parts of a chest cavity but still tough enough to punch through one side of any NA animal walking. I'm not a 6.5 Creedmoor guy myself, but it's hard to argue the effectiveness of that chambering pushing a 143.

Dave

Interlock. Blows apart and penetrates. They don't look fancy, I get it, but most bullets on the market look like Tarzan and perform like Jane. That's my 1 cent.

Yes - I shot my first elk with a 338 Win and 225 gr Hornady Interlock. 125 yds broadside - 1st shot was tight behind the shoulder. He hunched up at the shot and I knew he was dead on his feet. He just stood there on the edge of a steep drainage I didn't want to pack him out of. 2nd shot was intentionally on the point of the shoulder and he dropped immediately.

After breaking the shoulder, the 225 Hornady deflected up through the neck and stopped under the hide close to the offside ear. It weighs 129.4 gr and expanded right to the Interlock ring.

I've killed over 2 dozen elk (not a lot) with my 270 Win shooting 150g Partitions at 3000 fps. Worked flawlessly from 15 yards to past 400 yards. My last elk was taken at 225 yards with a 570g TSX at 2300 fps from my 500 Jeffery. Needless to say it worked too.

Dayummm. Every one I recover is about 30 percent intact. Offside is always blood shot trauma. Love that bullet

Not going to lie, not a fan of 22 cal Match bullets on elk. But if it works for you. More power To you. Sh*t happens and I think the elk deserve little more oomph.

I’m also not impressed with the pic of interlock as it lost 45% of its weight. Seems little excessive.
Carry on

I have generally been a fan of moderate cartridges used at moderate range, firing heavy for caliber bullets for elk. Of the 30 elk I've taken so far, most have been with .308 win/180gr., and .35 Whelen / 250 grain. A few with cartridges as large as .375 H&H and .450-400 3" Nitro Express, and as small as .270 and 7mm. I like two holes with a big permanent wound channel, and little fragmentation. My preferred bullets are the Norma Oryx, Speer Grand Slam, And Barnes TTSX. Lately my preferred cartridge is 9.3x62 or 9.3x74R with the traditional 285 Gr. bullet. It doesn't seem to matter as much what style of those big bullets I use, they just work. Full penetration in a straight line with an exit, and plenty of scrambled elk in-between. Quick consistent kills regardless of angle or big bones in the way. And actually not much meat damage. That's a nice combination.

I don’t disagree regarding the 88s on elk..which I said. It was my only other “backup” gun in camp, and a scope issue on my son’s rifle forced the issue. I gave him my .280ai and took the 22-250 thinking I wouldn’t see anything based on where I was going (mostly a glassing spot). Of course a rag horn proved me wrong on that front. The bullet did great though, slipped just behind the shoulder. Even punched a rib as I recall.

My experience is that bullets that come apart seem to make things sick right now….assuming they make it into the vitals anyway…which isn’t difficult to do 99 percent of the time.

Ymmv.

Dave

You undersell yourself brother. Been reading your posts for a lot of years. There are a few guys I pay attention to when they speak/type - you are one of them. Thanks for weighing in.

Agreed. Same thoughts here. I have never read any of your stuff Dave and thought this guy is anything but right up front.

Says yet another guy I pay attention to......

I should've done this in my first post. I've bolded the parts of iddave's that are the "nail on the head" portions of his post.

Match bullets like the TMK, berger, and eldm provide massive trauma, while also being less affected by wind (ie they have less wind drift). Wind is the one variable that is always present yet always variable. There will always be some degree of error in your wind call (excluding a lucky guess), high bc match bullet reduce the error because they drift less in comparison to most bonded or solid bullets.

I don't worry about close range shots as I've taken them and seen the trauma caused at muzzle velocity impacts, it's impressive.

If only sierra would make a 115gr or 120gr 6mm tmk. That would be THE killing bullet. The perfect combination of shootability, bc, terminal performance. Or an eldm..

I killed over 40 elk with a 30-06 and Hornady 165 grain spritzers. Nothing fancy, but effective. I have since tried a 30-378 with 200 grain Accubonds and 190 grain Hornady Interlocks. The 30-378 is just too much gun.

There are those that think 22 caliber cartridges are fine for elk, I am not one of those. Today I shoot and have been shooting elk for some time now, with a 300 WBY and 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. Blood trails to me are not as important as putting the elk on the ground, so I shoot them in the shoulder.

Based on dozens of elk killed, I haven’t found the need for “premium” or specialty bullets. Between Hornady Interlocks and Nosler Ballistic tips, I have witnessed enough dead elk to comfortably say that they work and I quit shooting them in the lungs.

Once in awhile a good fence will also work…

One thing I had happen to me is when I shoot cows over hay fields there is usually near 50 of them.

It’s usually just legal light, I am usually alone. It’s usually 200 plus yards. The cup and core bullets seem to make a much louder THWAAACK! Compared to Nosler partitions or Barnes monolithic.

This loud report when it hits them is most comforting as I have no spotter.!

“If only sierra would make a 115gr or 120gr 6mm tmk. That would be THE killing bullet. The perfect combination of shootability, bc, terminal performance. Or an eldm..”


Great minds think alike…as I couldn’t agree more with this statement! A 6mm 120 TMK or ELDm would make my parts tingle.

Dave

I enjoy reading everyone’s opinion and most of all first hand experience. One thing lacking in many posts is distance to the Elk. Impact velocity and performance at 300 to 400 yards tells a lot and I consider it an important data point.

I'm a Barnes TSX/TTSX Koolaide drinker, but, I've made the Koolaide myself. Pre-TSX, I was a "Partition-Guy". The Barnes were quite a bit more accurate for me than partitions were, thus the change. Grand Scheme of things I've killed 13 elk, a Moose, 2 caribou, a pronghorn, a black-bear, and a whole bunch of deer.

We had LOTS of deer during the early-mid 2000's when CRP ruled the landscape and every fall I had a pocket full of tags. The scene that really sealed it for me was having 4 deer hanging within a couple of days. They were all taken w/different rifles but all with TSX bullets. 243Win 85, 7-08 120, 270Win 140, and 300Win Mag 200. With the hide off, you couldn't tell which rifle had been used on which carcass because the wound entrance/exits all looked "the same". Caliber sized entry, golf-ball sized exit, excellent damage in-between.

I've recovered 9 projectiles from critters, 5 200gn TSX from elk, 1 from my moose, 1 257 100gn, and 2 270 140's. They're not all "text-book/magazine quality" mushrooms, I've lost petals on a few. About 10yrs ago the guy I hunt with the most started shooting TTSX bullets as well and the results are predictably the same.

All that said, I could go back to shooting partitions, ballistic tips, interlocks, or game kings tomorrow if I had to and I doubt I'd really notice much difference when all is said and done. Make holes in the heart/lungs, maybe try to catch a shoulder going in or out and validate your tag.

Slap any animal on this continent behind the shoulder with a 30 caliber 165 plus grain interlock moving 2900 plus inside 400 yards and it's gonna die. After that you may need the bonded deal, maybe. If you hit shoulder or azz, that's your problem, not the bullet. In my opinion you would have to be extremely desperate to shoot further than 400 yards at anything while hunting. In my experience, I usually have a pair of shooting sticks and don't have all day to make it happen. After 250 yards, I think a big game hunter on elk sized game should stay off the shoulder and target lungs. It's like popping a beach ball with no resistance versus shooting a softball through a cinder block.

Entirely too much common sense on display here... Well put.

Guy

I presume all these 9 recovered bullets were Barnes and not just the 200 grain TSX?

It is so odd that different people have different experiences with the same equipment. Many people preach they’ve never caught a Barnes bullet, or any mono for that matter.

I always think a big difference in people’s varied results/conclusions is their individual definition of “good” shot placement, but I am sure there are other examples.

When I shot barnes 180 grainxlc outta a 3006 I would find the bullets.

Perhaps the mushroom petals thwarted further penetrating the opposite hide?

You actually killed an elk with a 30-06 ? I thought that cartridge was obsolete I mean can you still get brass ? Well I guess you know what you’re talking about but I’ll have to think about this one “ calmly “

Rick

I’m sorta of with Jackson Hand on this. But I don’t use true ‘ frangible ‘ bullets in high speed cartridges cause I’m still looking to bust up big bones and putting them down. So bullets like Hornady Interlocs, Hawks and Partitions do the job. They reliably penetrate, retain enough lead to break bone and most often result in secondary projectiles as in bone shards that poke holes in lungs and heart. Never had them exit on good shoulder shots so the old exit wound equals good blood trail doesn’t apply. Even if there was a good blood trail I couldn’t see it being red/green color blind unless there is snow on the ground

Rick

JMO, you match my the caliber and ammo with the gun. Elk are tough animals, and broadside shots lend themselves to many bullets. But, if that bull of a lifetime needs to be punched through the shoulder, a quality bullet is needed. It won’t kill as quickly as a broadside shot that knocks it on its @ss, but it will be a dead animal within 100 yards. For elk and tough animals I’m a firm believer in Accubonds, Partitions, Ascents, etc.. For light skinned animals like pronghorn, give me a fast ballistic tip that produces a ton Of damage and anchors the animal in its tracks. There is no one “ best of” bullet.

Contrary to popular opinion, elk are not hard to kill.Finding them is. I have killed a lot of bull elk with only one double lung shot and I am sure many others have too.

Yes, all 9 are Barnes TSX (I don’t shoot any of the tipped version):

I have no data, but, I suspect not everybody actually looks for the offending projectile (I do, I consider it a trophy). Folks who take animals to a processor whole are also unlikely to get any recovered projectiles back as well unless their processor is a "loony" or has been alerted to the possiblity and asked for any results.

A buddy shoots all TTSX versions and I know we've recovered several .338 210's via 338Win and a couple of 150TTSX shot from his 280AI Kimber as well. None of his are pictured below.

Saddlesore I believe you have brought the debate full circle.

They may be easy to kill ……….

But hard to find……..(goes 4 both live ones and dead ones).

270 Win with 150g Partitions at 3000 fps has been my goto elk medicine for a long time.

Ive enjoyed following this thread. I've killed elk with a number of cartridges from 243 to 45/70. Bullets have been cup and core, partitions, and TTSX's. All the bullets have worked well. The chamberings I've used most are the 338 WinMag with partitions and the 270 with mono's. I've no experience with Bergers, Scenars, bondeds (on elk), or mono's designed to shed petals. I might also note that my experience with TTSX's has been with using them relatively light for caliber and driven fast. I'd like to try 168 grainers from a 308 or '06. Anyway, I'll share a few opinions:

Number 1 - Saddlesore is right, finding elk is where the conversation begins.
Number 2 - Bullet placement trumps all.
Number 3 - If the question involves hunting big game, "Partitions" is always a good answer.
Number 4 - A solidly constructed cup 'n' core works well especially at velocities below 2800 or so fps and when they are on the heavy side for caliber.
Number 5 - Mono's excel with speed. They're great for neck shooters or for the high shoulder shot. They seem to be the kings of penetration.

Thanks to all who've contributed to this thread, good info.

10 pages and not 1 passing match - a new record!

Seriously, this is a good thread. I wish this existed when I was trying to figure out elk and elk cartridges/bullets. But back then (20+ years ago) we didn't have the selection we now have. Somehow I killed stuff with Sierras and Hornadys. Gasp!

4 thumping hayfield cows.

I like the hornaday FTX 160 in a 300 savage.

I personally think hornaday has got the momentum to become a serious player in the shooting industry.

Gonna use a 308 marlin express this year unless I get fortunate enough to stick one with an arrow.

My go to bullet for a very long time was Nosler Partitions in just about everything- from 25-06 up to .338 WM and 300 Weatherby Mag. They killed very well and we were able to take a lot of elk and deer with those combos as I reload for myself, my brother, and my son. However, a few years ago I started to get tired of the damaged meat I was getting with the Partitions so I went shopping. I had loaded a bunch of A-frames for my African hunt and was very happy with their performance and I had a few in different calibers laying around so I tried them in my 338 and my 300 Weatherby (actually a 300 H&H AI- potatoe/potato)... they worked fine and I recovered a few that had a perfect mushroom. When those ran out I tried the Nosler Accubonds and I am presently loading them pretty exclusively in all my hunting rifles how except my varmint rifles. They are extremely accurate and I'm definitely in the bullet placement camp, regardless of the game. But so far the few animals I have shot with them have been pretty quick kills and the bullets have been perfect if I have been able to collect them... I would like to try the Hornady ELD-X but I have a hard time changing once I find something that works...

Some great info in this thread...

Good old 180gr Interlocks about 2700fps from a 30-06 worked fine for me.


Will most likely be using 143gr ELD-X in 6.5 Creedmoor for this years elk hunt. Not that there are any flies on the 30-06, but my CM weighs about 2# less and getting myself up and down the mountains ain't as easy as it used to be.

In my experience the 143 ELD-X is a great bullet in the 6.5 Creedmoor. Haven't killed any elk with it (yet), but a hunting partner and I used it on mule deer in northern New Mexico a few years ago. I killed a 300-pound buck that was standing broadside in a patch of Gambel oaks only 100 yards away, and the only vital part of his body exposed was the "high shoulder." The buck collapsed at the shot, and the ELD-X broke both shoulders and the thickest portion of the spine, ending up under the hide and retaining 74% of its weight.

My buddy killed a bigger-bodied buck at 311 yards, which stood angling away. The bullet ended up in the far shoulder, retaining 86% of its weight.

Which is why I bought a lifetime supply of 143 ELD-Xs shortly afterward.

JB what do you consider a "lifetime supply"?
.mb

The 6.5 CM is at the confluence of a great number of human factors.

I’ve killed 20 elk mostly cows & assisted on that many more cutting & hauling. I’ve used 7mm, 30-06 and 300 Weatherby shooting accubond, partitions, ballistic tips & Barnes TTSX.

I’m agnostic on 2 holes or maximum internal damage. On deer explosive fragmenting bullets worked best & fastest hands down. I’ve gravitated to monos for elk 180 TTSX going near 3200FPS works for good & bad shot angles up close and at 500 yards. Seldom need a finisher on elk occasionally do on deer.

I dislike animals suffering & dislike having to pass up shots that I can make because of bullet limitations so like the OP I’ve erred on the side of stouter construction. The other benefit of monos is I’m never worried about lead in the meat that I’ve missed or the butcher missed because of fine fragments in the hamburger.

The component inventory list I keep on this computer shows a total of around 275 143-grain ELD-Xs.

As I related around the 'fire before, back during the latest unpleasantness when a bonded bullet couldn't be found anywhere, I loaded up the 143 ELD-X for multiple cow elk hunts because:
1 - they produce very consistent groups in my CM
2 - they were available when everything else wasn't

I've since knocked down a number of 400 - 500 lb cow elk with that bullet, all single shots, however I was very careful to avoid big bone where possible. All have been pass-throughs.

Any of you use old A-max on elk?

Yup, but not the .264" 140 gr version. Mainly the 7mm 162 gr AM. Works well on everything from coyotes to elk and moose.

They reached that point 20 years ago.

I've used the 6.5 CM and 143 gr ELD-X on a caribou (375 yds), one cow elk (125 yds) and a 5x5 bull (135 yards). All were broadside one shot scenarios with little fanfare. This year I will be using the 140 gr. Partition just because I found a box to work up a load. Looking forward to the experience beginning in 30 days.

I have shot a few elk with the 6.5mm 140 A-MAX, including one bigger bodied 6x6. Starting velocity of 2880 FPS and distances not too far out so impact velocity was still somewhat high.

It worked fine, though I’d stay off the shoulder if possible, based on the expansion I saw.

Understanding there are a lot of great bullets out there, I've settled on Barnes TTSX or LRX in all our rifles.
They shoot great, kill well and in my experience save a fair amount of meat vs many other bullets.
I currently load them for rifles chambered from .243 to 300 H&H and have yet to be disappointed.

I have killed elk with the following bullets...

Nosler partition and ballistic tip bullets

Speer grand slams and hot core bullets

Hornady interlocks

Zero 'match' type bullets that a certain company pushes as suitable hunting bullets just to sell more bullets.... this is completely my own opinion on the fad of using such bullets on game..... I don't do it.

No flies on the mono's for game, cause that's what they were designed for. I just have not put any threw an animal yet.

One game ranch I hunted for 10 years had a large qty of Exotics. I killed around 30 Axis (75% Bucks, 25% Does) with a 280 Remington. All were whacked with Remington 150 CoreLokt’s, commercial loads. Never had to track a single one. Those loads averaged 2820 fps. Farthest kill was an Axis doe, headshot, at 300 yds.

Those 150 CL's work well on elk as well? Probably pretty easy on that bullet at that speed.

A few years ago I had to hit a cow twice with a 150g eldx from an 18" fieldcraft 7-08. The first one should have done it as it was quartering away and I hit it center height back of the ribs angling forward. The bullet blew up going in and looked like it only penetrated 5" or so and never touched the second lung.

Feeling my placement was good and thinking she still looked too healthy a quickly put a second in the neck and she went right down. With elk i always keep shooting until theyre down because ive seen them take seemingly solid hits and go a long ways.

It was just under 200 yards and my muzzle velocity was only 2675 but angling across ribs is sometimes hard on bullets. I've since switch that rifle to 180s at 2550mv.

I'd been a bit spoiled by the way my 300 wsm with 215g match hybrids has been folding everything with 1 shot. Years ago I used 200g accubonds in a 300 rum and those killed really well too. I had one go lengthwise through a small cow at 500 and it really tore stuff up.

Bb

I'd agree with this at all but longer ranges.

Bb

My brother, kids and I have been using monos exclusively for over ten years.
You will never convince me they kill as abruptly as lead and copper bullets.
I get it that guys like two holes. The problem is the exits are often small to the point they don't bleed well at all.
Mono uses suggest aiming for bone for a reason.

Ive got to add my support to the remarks related to the .270 Win and 150gr Partitions. Ive killed fewer bulls but piles of deer & hogs. I’m still trying to get other combos to match the 270/150NPT’s effectiveness. I’ve got near zero experience with monos on Elk other than what I’ve witnessed in others. I just consider the partition as a double action bullet where most others are single action.

Interestingly the second most effective bullet I’ve ever used is the Sierra 85gr HPBT in my 6mm - sorta ridiculous how effective that little bullet is.

Can’t say I’m either a two hole guy or a fragment guy but after reading this thread I guess I’d side with the bullet fans who prefer at least some disintegration before leaving the target.

Great thread all - interesting to read about those opinions built on significant experience that I’ll likely never have.

Pints

Having shot and seen shot a large number of elk I believe the best elk bullet is the VLD.

It simply kills faster from up close to 1000yds.

I shoot for shoulders.

This is my take as well.

Personally I prefer the Nosler Accubond or Partition bullets but have used Sierra Gamekings and Hornady Interlock and ELDX bullets as well.

Somehow killed a bull with a match bullet, 108eldm.....weird.

What were the particular's on that one JH? That 108 is a dandy bullet and as accurate as I've seen from a 6mm. From the little ARC to the 6 Creed its been easy to tune.

IMO, the Eld-x is not a big game bullet. I shoot mostly Barnes lrx and ttsx anymore, but it's hard to beat a interlock or partition for all around performance.

The lack of penetration using a 103gr Eld-x after hitting the shoulder bone is dismal at best.

220yds double lung. Fell down, got up, stumbled a short distance and died. Small 6pt bull. Just as a bull did last year with the 140eldm.

Still looking for the bulletproof elk. Hope to get another killed next weekend with the same peashooter.

Nice. Congrats. Any bullet left to recover?

Cool stuff.

30-06 150 gr SST (Hornady Superperformance factory) tends to leave big internal wound channels at most any range on caribou out to 450 yards IME. Close in, BIG wound channels! Have recovered 2 only - a separated jacket and bullet lodged in the off-side "elbow" at 433 yards, and an insurance shot into a moose skull at 5 yards (that one surprised me- near perfect mushroom)

Can’t speak to AMAX/ELDM on elk, but the 7mm and 6.5mm versions sure work great on deer!

I've used 150g partitions out of my BDL in 270 Win at 3000 fps for decades. Works great, gave the rifle to my son, he's gotten elk with it so I'm happy. Buying myself a vintage BDL in 7mm Mag. Plan to load 175g A-Frames at 2900 fps.

I just checked out all of the testing, thank you for posting that info.

Took my first elk this year. Debated what rifle to use but settled on the .30-06 and loaded some 180 gr. TTSX for it. At the shot the bull stiffened and I went ahead and hit it again but it was not really needed. Both shots were pass throughs on a broadside shot. Didn't take more than 3-4 steps. My father used the same handload last week on a couple of deer which accounted for a couple of one shot kills. Can't complain about performance and the load shoots well.

No problem.

FWIW, 2 years ago I used a .300 Wby and 180 TTSX's to shoot a cow at 175 yards that was quartering away from me. Shot went in behind the near shoulder and out through the opposite side. She went down immediately and stayed down. I was very impressed with the results.

This conversation comparing light/fast/soft bullets vs. heavy/slow/tough bullets has been going on for a long, long time.

In the early 90's, I had a friend in Paradise, Ca who was a hunter. He had more than a dozen sets of elk horns on the walls of his den. He had never owned any rifle but a Sako L579 in .243 Win. He told me he loaded 85gr Sierras "as fast as they would go", and described how they would blow up inside the elk when they hit bone, spreading shrapnel throughout the chest cavity. That rifle and that load also accounted for more than 100 deer.

Other people believed in the small bullet/high velocity concept at that time, also:

From the Jackson Hole Outfitters newsletter, Dec 1999:

"In .243 or 6mm, use the 80 grain. I personally hand-load my .243 with 42.5 grains of Dupont 4895 behind a Hornady 75 grain hollowpoint. I've had it chronographed at 3510fps from my Husqvarna, and between my brothers, son, and I, we've killed more than 20 elk, 30 deer, two bears, and two moose with that load - in a .243!! Large caliber and heavy bullet is not the answer. If that were so we would still be shooting 500 grain punkin' balls in a 54 caliber muzzle-loader. Straight shooting and a very fast thin bullet will do much better. When that 75 grain pointy hollow-point smacks a rib cage, it penetrates about three inches and then it goes all to pieces, SPLAAT!, just like a shotgun shell going off in the boiler room. Does a lot of damage."

Grits Gresham wrote in Guns & Ammo magazine, 2002:

"But how about a .243 Winchester for elk? Not for the average hunter. But never? You be the judge. Whiskey Chamberland was my guide on several hunts along the Salmon River in Idaho. I had known him quite a while before the subject of his personal elk rifle arose, and I was shocked. He used a .243. I probed deeper and my surprise increased. At the time, he'd killed 15 consecutive bulls with one shot each. Losses? None."

Alpinecrick from this forum has written about a scorecard of more than a dozen elk killed cleanly with a 100gr Partition. An Idaho outfitter of some renown that I corresponded with advocated a .243 with about any good 100gr bullet, saying the mild kick helped people hit the mark more often than most hunters would with a harder-kicking magnum, and as a result put elk down without a fuss.

Recent posts in this and other forums have extolled the virtue of .223 caliber bullets from various cartridges on elk.

I don't like going to the extremes of either argument. Everyone has to make their own choices and take their own chances, but if I ever get the opportunity to hunt elk again, it will be with my 7mm-08 shooting a 140gr TTSX - although the 139gr Hornady Interlock wouldn't be a bad choice either!

I switched to Barnes TTSX when a 7mm 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip exploded on a nice Bull’s ribs producing a palm sized entry killed the elk with shrapnel in the lungs after 500+yards run through the snow. They have been effective on several elk since with exit holes. These day I’m shooting 180’s out of a 300 Weatherby and results are even better.

But for deer they are not nearly as impressive as my old soft NBT’s that dropped them like a hammer instantly dead. I’m prepared for worst case shot angles with the monos but understand double lung shots aren’t as spectacular or instant sometimes I’ve dispatched more deer with a knife or 2nd shot than the soft expansive bullets. They don’t tend to die as quickly but it’s not a consistent thing.

155 Scenar’s &/or Accubond’s keep my freezer full, mostly Scenar’s.

I shot my last cow right at 100yds, 300WM with the Barnes 175 LRX, started 3080 or so. To see for myself how "soft" the nose was I shot her broadside, tight behind the shoulder. she was up on the mountain, so entrance was low right and exited high left side. she made a death run 30yds downhill. Good 1 1/2" entrance/exit holes, massive damage inside. I could have killed her easily with my 30-30 Ackley, ha but it proved to me the LRX is the "berries". I have never killed anything yet with the Hammers, but assume they would kill the same, what with the claws tearing off. Can anyone add their Hammer story?

A Barnes 168 ttsx works as a elk bullet. 638yds and the bullet was stuck in the off side hide after smashing a rib. I'm interested in weighing what's left of the bullet, because there's no mushroom or petals.

I have killed elk every way possible, except chasing one down and screwing it to death. Luckily I have a cow tag this year.

Nothing matters more than a well placed hit.
There is not a big game bullet on the market that will not do the job in the hands of a hurter with skill and understanding of the task.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

TRUE DAT !!!

Rio7

Right, I have shot elk with bullets from 140 gr through 260 gr. I gave serious thought to where I place a BTBT but placed correctly they kill like a bomb. I have also use lots of partitions and Accubonds. The last is my favorite. Barnes was not recommeded by my barrel maker, but those barrels are now 25 years old. Things change.

That sounds like good results!

What was the approximate impact velocity?

Impact velocity was somewhere close to 2050fps. The recovered 168gr ttsx bullet weighed 157gr. The bullet worked alright, but it wasn't a classic mushroom or the petals folded back that I expected to see.

They say 1600, but man I wouldn’t wanna push it there myself.

That's disappointing. I hoped they would expand better at that velocity.

I was thinking the same. But man, you cannot whoop their track record. One of, if not the most talked about and used Barnes I hear of.

Here's a post from a thread about a year ago on this very bullet:


From the looks of TrueGrit's bullet, it certainly doesn't seem in keeping with what Barnes says.

Regardless, if you want animals to consistently drop quickly, or you shoot animals at long range, I think there are much better bullets than a Barnes. OTOH, if lead in your meat is a concern (a valid one IMO), or you live in California, then Barnes is your huckleberry.

About a month ago I shot a 5x5 bull at 30 yards using a 168 grain TTSX out of a .30-06 at about 2900 fps. It was a high shoulder shot and the bull dropped at the shot and slid back down the steep hill about 10 yards. I found the bullet under the hide on the far side with all the petals gone. The bullet passed though quite a bit of bone so that's probably why the petals were lost.

The TTSX worked great at close range. If I expected to shoot at 400-500 yards I would probably choose another bullet that expands a bit more easily.

Probably most here have killed more elk that I have but I prefer hunting for cows. Bette eating meat IMO. First one was with a .300 Win. mag, 200 gr. Speer Hot Core. Bullet was a complete pass through. With the exception of one, the next five were with the .35 Whelen and 225 gr. TSX. To say results were impressive would be classic understatement. Three were DRT. the other two required a finishing shot but those elk well literally totally paralyzed. Try as they might, neither could get back on their feet. The odd elk out was shot with a 30-06 and the 165 gr. Nosler Accubond The scope on my .35 had turned toes up when checking the sighting so the 30-06 back up became the primary. Shot that cow at just about 100 yards and she ran maybe 30 or so feet and collapsed. She was on of the two that required a finisher. I looked but never recovered any of the bullets from those elk.
PJ

If you're going to choose a bullet that maximizes a cartridge's potential wounding capability (ie a eldm, tmk, etc) you can achieve great terminal performance from just about any short action cartridge.

Why choose a magnum and then use a bullet that doesn't maximize terminal performance (bonded or solid bullets)? More recoil for less performance makes zero sense.

I've been using 150g Partitions out of my 270 Win at close or just over 3000 fps for longer than I care to admit for just that reason. They expand reliably out to 600 yards, and up close (15 yards) they are devastating with the back half always penetrating deeply. For larger calibers (375 Weatherby, 500 Jeffery) I prefer A-Frames or TSX's because the shots tend to be closer and the game is sometimes dangerous.

Hard to beat a Partition for deer, or elk. They always expand at long range, and cause hella damage at close range with the rear half still penetrating. For bears, i'm partial to A-Frames or in the case of my 500 Jeffery the 570g TSX.

I have shot four cow elk with a 300 savage at over 300 yards. I was using 160 grain FTX bullets.

My model 99 would get “ sticky” past mid book on the reloading chart.

They were dispatched in a very timely manner and you KNEW you had a hit due to its loud “ thwack”!

I would imagine the velocity would be similar to a 3006 / 300 mag. 500 to 700 yards?

Question is would that type of bullet hold up point blank at the increased velocity of a larger cartridge.

Heavy for caliber, Nosler Partition, 200gr ,30cal

That’s my decision for the 3006 NP 200….

Trying to decide what to use in my .308 Norma.

I have killed several truckloads of elk along with deer and antelope using these 200 Partitions loaded WARM in my 30-06. About the perfect elk bullet IMO. Completely superior performance over the 180 Partitions I have used in my 30-06. The handful of recovered bullets were collected after raking shots on game and deep penetration.

So, now that you have/had the cow tag, did you kill one with your last possible way?

Got any pictures?

While they are not de rigueur, they still work, and often far better than the current crop of alphabet bullets. Farthest BG animal I ever took was 548 yards with a 180 Partition. Since I'll never shoot beyond that at game, and won't take windy shots either, slippery bullets mean little to me.

Dave, don't sleep on the 108 ELDM out of the 6 creed, my friend....

Or the 105 hybrid. IIRC a few years back, Pat and his pals filled a truck bed with a bunch of elk all killed with a 6 creed/105 hybrid combo...

Brad,

I tend to agree--and partly because like you I have frequently hunted elk in grizzly country. In fact killed my first maybe 25 miles from where a high-school classmate killed a big boar on his family's ranch, at age 12. This was back when Yellowstone Park bears were dispersing after the "feeding dumps" were closed down. He shot it between the eyes with a .25-35, which of course did the job.

Have hunted elk mostly in Montana--and mostly in grizzly country, which these days includes the mountain ranges on either side of our valley. But have also hunted elk in northern British Columbia, where I took both a 6x6 bull and a good-sized bull moose. Had a big grizzly try to come in while my guide and I were taking the moose apart--and we finished the job by taking turns, the other guy standing guard with a rifle. When we rode out past the spot a couple days later, a BIG boar was sitting 100 yards off the trail, next to what remained of the moose--much of which was apparently in the bear's distended belly. He was so stuffed he just watched us ride by....

Killed the elk very late in the evening in an area where one of the other guides had to kill a charging grizzly a week or so before, but luckily did not encounter one on the hour-long ride in the dark back to camp.

Would rather not hunt elk in griz country with anything less than something like a .30-06 with deep-penetrating bullets--whether the 200 Partition, or my latest favorite in the '06, the 175 Barnes LRX.

The other factor when I started hunting was most elk in that area were found in thick timber during rifle season, partly because there weren't nearly as many elk back then, and most had learned to head for dark timber when hunter activity (including tent camps being set up) started to accelerate prior to opening day. Which is why my first several elk were killed within 100 yards--using the .30-06 and 200 Partitions, the first few with the old lathe-turned "semi-spitzer." Never recovered one--and the elk died quickly.

Since then have not only hunted elk in several other parts of Montana but British Columbia, Colorado, Idaho and New Mexico. Despite a lot of open high country in BC's Prophet-Muskwa country, most elk were found lower down in thicker cover--partly due to grizzlies. Saw 10 of 'em during that a 10-day hunt, as close as 50 yards. And even in griz-free New Mexico many elk were in thicker stuff--killed a big bull at 100 yards in Gambel oak so thick I could only see the top half the of the bull's body. In Colorado the elk hung out more in the open, but it was windy and cold the morning I killed one at medium-long range.

But around here many elk now hang out on valley ranches, rather than up in the mountains. Eileen has killed her last two with one shot using much smaller rounds, the first with the .257 Roberts--but used the 100-grain TTSX, a medium-sized cow. The range was a lasered 123 yards at close to last light, and it worked fine--but the cow was angling away, and it was nice to know the bullet would penetrate sufficiently.

I took a big cow a couple weeks ago during the "shoulder season" in central Montana, using my 6.5 PRC with a 127-grain Barnes LRX. She went right down with minimal meat damage, which these days is more important to me than antlers. While that isn't officially grizzly country, two have been encountered within 100 miles or so of there in the past year or two. These days you never know!

John

Mule Deer, thanks for the insight on the LRX. I've started shooting the 175 LRX in my 30.06 as well for the same reasons you mentioned, hunting in grizzly country. Do you think the Barnes TTSX 165/168 would suffice in similar circumstances wrt dealing with big bears or is the quick expansion of the LRX design and the 15-20 gr. wt. increase give it enough edge to negate the TTSX bullets?

Tag

Hi John, yes those pesky grizzlies. I generally put them out of mind. Last one I ran into was in 2020. It was a smart bear, and took off at a full run when I yelled at it. Within reason I don't let it affect what I carry, but a 308 with 4 or 5 down is probably my favorite. I still think standard bullets that fragment w/ copper and lead kill game faster than mono's, but those mono's are certainly going to out-penetrate cup bullets of similar weight. Partitions are still my favorite bullet.

One of the carpenters that worked for me had to kill a big boar up in the Bob about ten years back. He was hunting the early rifle season, and surprised the bear sleeping. It charged, and his first shot hit it in the chest. It kept coming. His second shot went in its eye, and the bullet traveled the inside circumference of the skull and was found on the inside of the skull near the opposite eye (7em-em and 175gr Corelokt's). The bear died a few feet from him.

An outfitter acquaintance told me about getting attacked by a sow with cubs he'd surprised. She got him in a "bear hug" from behind and wouldn't let go. He finally was able to swing the butt of his rifle around and doinked here solidly in the nose, whereupon the bear ran off. He said with a grin, "don't anyone ever tell you a 30-06 isn't enough for grizzlies!"

When I was brown bear hunting on Upper Togiak Lake a 7 1/2 brown bear (smallish) started sniffing at my guide while he was doing his bizzness of course in the pouring rain. Next thing I knew he was running (not charging) at me. I was sitting on the raft glassing the far shore with my rifle 4 feet away with my scope covers on. I stood up and yelled at him and told him to get his furry ass back in the woods. He did. My guide just looked at me and shook his head and said "This is going to be a long hunt" lol

The LRXs don't expand any faster than TTSXs, and in fact its pretty much a myth that any expanding big game bullets expand "faster." Instead just about any, except Berger Hunting VLDs and some other similar "target-type" bullets, where expansion is delayed slightly. All other expanding bullets open up completely within their length, which is rarely over 1.5".

Instead the LRXs are designed to expand at lower impact velocities than TTSXs--such as at longer ranges. So far I have not idea how much weight they retain on game, since I haven't recovered any--and the first 175 LRX I took any game with penetrated a angling-away mule deer at 325 yards, penetrating around three feet before exiting. In other words, they seem to penetrate like TTSXs.

N.W. corner outside of Yellowstone park 10 miles from camp had a mama grizzly come out 60 feet from me with 2 second year cubs she looked at me than ran away ,my mule was not happy either guide was behind me laughing and said that was a good bear ,i then asked him what if the that bear came after us guide said that would be a dead bear. we were using 338 Win.mags 225 Nosler Partitions.

I have hunted around grizzlies (and brown bears) long enough to "generally put them out of my mind," but not entirely. My first "guided" elk hunt was actually a drop-camp in the Scapegoat Wilderness, the southern-most of the wilderness areas making up the Bob Marshall Complex. Well-known outfitter Smoke Elser dropped off a couple friends and me at an already set-up wall tend camp right on the border of the Scapegoat. The backcountry rifle season opened the next day, September 15th.

Turned out elk were pretty scarce, as they often are in high-elevation wilderness, because as the late Jack Atcheson Sr. often pointed out, a lot of wilderness is "goat rocks," where there isn't much elk feed. All I saw while hiking dozens of miles during the week was a cow and calf, though did hear a couple of very distant bugles. But on the main foot/horse trail in the valley north of our camp came across both fresh wolverine tracks, and the tracks of a mature grizzly--which were often on top of the wolverine tracks.

Have been charged twice by brown bears, both on Kodiak Island, within a half-hour. Was on a fishing trip in the early 1990s out of then-new Zachar Bay Lodge, and a group of us were hiking the shoreline of the bay on the way to catch salmon and Dolly Vardens in the Zachar River. Some of the group were workers for Nestle, who'd been given the trip as a "bonus," and eight of us (including Eileen) were in a line behind a guide, who carried a pump shotgun with slugs. (He was a very experienced brown bear guide, along with other game and fishing).

The shoreline consisted of an average of 50 yards of sand, with steep, brushy ridges coming down to the sand every 100 yards or so. We soon came around a ridge-bend, and saw a couple of brown bear cubs 50-75 yards away on the sand at the base of a ridge. Mama was a few yards above them, and when she saw us ran down the ridge and started huffing and puffing, bouncing up and down on her front paws.

When the lead Nestle guy saw this, he ran in front of the guide with the shotgun, to get videos of the bears. Mama charged --and the guide couldn't shoot around the Nestle nitwit. Luckily, it was a bluff charge, and mama bear rounded up the cubs and headed back up the hillside. The guide then REALLY reamed out the Nestle guy.

A couple ridges later just about exactly the same thing happened--two cubs on the beach, and mama bear heading downhill toward them and us. Except the Nestle guy did not run out in front of the group.

According to much bear lore this wasn't supposed to happen, since brown/grizzly bears are supposed to be more cautious around larger groups of people. But I have yet to be able to assume what's supposed to happen when surprising a grizzly at close range. Did it another time when hunting black bears in spring at the northern end of the Bob Marshall, when I came slowly around a bend in a trail to a small clearing--and a big boar grizzly was feeding at the opposite side of the clearing, around 30 feet away. We stared at each other for a few seconds, and then he turned away and wandered off through the surrounding trees and brush. But he didn't have to....

JB, isn’t the .308 168 gr TTSX supposed to expand down to 1500 fps? Will the 175 LRX do the same?

Barnes generally suggests 2000 fps for TTSX bullets and 1600 for LRX bullets.

That’s a huge difference. I’d say that’s a minimum of 200 extra yards if bit closer to 300 in additional hunting range

Barnes bullets are always best when ran light for caliber. Think 180 in a 300 rum 165 in a WM and 150, 06 and down.

I’ll have to disagree on the 150 in 06. In 308 yes.

But 168 in 06 for me it’s a good balance and retains velocity longer.

I dug this out of the internet, from 2017 on long range hunting forum:



Hello Ty,

I have read that the original TSX was designed for a minimum impact velocity of 1800 FPS, and that the TTSX was designed for a minimum impact velocity of 2000 FPS, and that this was true pretty much across the board for all calibers. Is that true? If so, what is the advantage of the plastic tip increasing the BC for a TTSX vs a TSX of the same weight since the TTSX takes more velocity to expand, and the max range for reliable expansion will likely be about the same?

Specifically, I'm wondering about the .308 cal, 168 grain TSX and TTSX that I will be loading for deer and possibly elk where my shots might range out to 400-500 yards. Are there different min impact velocities for these bullets?

I'll be loading them in a 30-06. Do you have any load data using Superformance for these bullets?

Thanks!"

he responded...

"Hi Anthony,

Originally that was indeed the case with rare exception. However as we optimize each bullet, many have changed. Originally we found that the TTSX required slightly higher impact velocity in our water tank test, compared to equal velocities in ordinance gelatin or tissue – so we simply made the TTSX test 200fps higher to offset the difference in real tissue.

The .308 cal 168gr TSX and TTSX are both optimized for the 308 Win and 30-06 ammunition by reducing the minimum impact velocity to 1500fps. Compared to the 165gr TSX and TTSX at 1800fps – optimized for the 300 WSM and 300 Win Mag. See the data attached. We didn't test that particular combination – it may be quite compressed. You should be able to extrapolate a load using the 175gr LRX and 180gr TTSX.

Thanks, Ty"

Here is what I got from Barnes when asking specifically about 165 and 168 30 cal ttsx

“The 0.308" 165gr TTSX is a shorter ogive than the 0.308" 168gr TTSX. We offer both for different cartridges to work within SAAMI COAL limits. The 308 168gr works well in the 308 WIN and 30-06 which allow more exposed bullet to be seated out further. The 165gr was designed for cartridges more like the 300 WIN MAG which require a shorter ogive to work within SAAMI limits.

When handloading, you can use either in a 300 WIN MAG just realize with the 168/175gr that you will need to seat it out a little further that the SAAMI max COAL and check proper fit and function in your particular firearm.

They all function to similar velocities. The 168gr and 175gr LRX will open up at a lower velocity (around 1600 ft/s) than the 165gr (around 1800 ft/s). For best performance we recommend keeping impact velocity a few hundred feet above this minimum.

Thanks

Greggory Sloan | Ballistics Lab Supervisor
Barnes Bullets, LLC”

Thanks for adding that Andre

From a few posts back in this thread, it appears Barnes is consistent in their velocity threshold recommendation.

So I am thinking about the 303 savage.

I might run into elk with it but I would use it under 200 yards..

160 Hornaday FTX?

150 Nosler Partitions?

Or ??

Shoot man, ain't there any 190's around for that old bird?

Wasn't that how the 303 made it's way?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020722037?pid=701842

Agree with beretzs, I've got a box of those myself and will work up a 30-30 load to equivalent velocity to try them on deer. Damn 99's in nice shape with a good barrel in 303 you need a 2nd mortgage for..mb

I got all kinds of bullets.

I have great experience with the FTX in 300 savage.

But I got a bunch of 150 NP s ………waiting on Christmas Island like the misfit toys in Rudolph’s deal.

I suppose the chronograph and range will tell me.


#303likespointybullets

If that’s what you have and wanna run em, go for it. Don’t blame you a bit. But if I had a nice 303 I’d have to try the old 190’s. I am not rationale or make sense sometimes but it all feels right in my head!

We all acknowledge bullets have improve over time. My 303 s are over 80 years old.

And velocity sees to Trump sectional density in terminal performance?

The thing that spooks me is how poorly the less expensive cup and core 180/200 grains do when shot point blank at a beef knuckle if I I remember correctly.

And I am concerned I won’t get enough velocity to use heavier premium bullets effectively.

I have 165 grain hollow points.

150 cup and cores

Lots of heavier cup and cores

No monolithic.

Shoot, you have me thinking I should try and load some of the 190’s in my M94, just for fun.

The world record elk was harvested with a 30/40 krag.

Weren’t those designed for 220 s ?

Yep, I believe so.

Lots of good bullets on the market these days . I’ve used Partitions, AccuBonds, Tsx Ttsx,GMX with good results mostly in 30 cal , 7mm , and 270 cal.
Last 2 my nephew and I got were spike bulls he was using his 270 win and a 130 gr interbond. And I was using my 300 Weatherby with 180 gr interbond.
Very disappointed to hear Hornady is discontinuing the inter bond line . They seemed to work really well with picture perfect mushrooms on the ones I recovered.

We've shot a lot of deer using TTSX, TSX and lately the LRX with excellent results at all ranges. This year we went elk hunting for the first time since 1992 and ended up recovering a couple of 168gr TTSX bullets. After seeing the results first hand and not reading or seeing pictures of the results of water or ballistic gel test. Honestly, I don't know what to expect from Barnes TTSX anymore. We're going to keep shooting TTSX, LRX bullets and killing stuff with them like we always have....but damn.
Using the Burger bullet calculator site, it says a 168gr bullet started at 3250 fps is supposed to be moving along at 2238 fps at 600yds. These bullets were recovered from elk shot between 610 and 630yds with a starting MV of 3250+ fps.

True Grit, I saw your thread where you posted those photos, and I agree - I'm unimpressed as well.

At least they are consistent?

Same here. To me it looks like their velocity window to make them really come alive would be north of 2200 myself.

Closer to 2400, based on the two bullets shown, IMO.

Which blows if you wanted it for a do-it all in a 30-06 or .308.

I'd love to see that photo and description sent to Barnes to get their input/reaction.

Indeed.

The Plute elk. Took a pic of the elk this summer while I was in Crested Butte. It is was impressive when you are standing there looking at it.

WOW!

I used to work in crested butte sorry I missed it!

What building is it in?

I lent it out to the local vfw.

Downtown at the museum. If you look it up, it will lead you to the visor center. It's not there, it's in the museum downtown.

I went to Crested Butte just to see that elk. Trust me the pics don't show how massive that rack is.

I even hiked up both ends of Dark Canyon just checking it out. Good elk country - back in that era. It's not that hard to get to.

Thanks for the response. I took note of your "myth that any expanding big game bullets expand "faster" comment and realized I had read in the past about just that in one of your books or articles. Probably would have been better to say "more easily" because of the lower impact velocity design. I've only shot one animal with the 175 LRX, a whitetail buck at about 30 yrds out my back door. The buck was angling sharply uphill and to the right and the bullet went through the rear part of the right shoulder blade, impacted the spine and cut through the forward section of the left shoulder. My daughter happened to find the bullet lodged in a lodgepole behind the where the deer was standing. The petals were gone and I didn't see any evidence of them in the tree so figured they came off in the deer. Personally I have no problem with the petals breaking off since the shank should still have enough mass to keep going and the petals will just add to the damage.

How far did the elk travel after the hit before they expired and what damage did you see on the insides? I haven't shot enough animals with Barnes bullets to make any kind of judgment so asking out curiosity.

I've seen a lot of Barnes X bullets of various types take big game since around 1990, and have never been able to tell whether they retained or lost their petals make difference in how they killed. The last one where the petals had disappeared and the bullet was recovered was a huge cow elk my wife Eileen killed maybe five years ago.

It was standing quartering toward us at around 250 yards, and Eileen aimed for the near (left) shoulder with her .308 Winchester--and that's where the 130-grain TTSX landed, just above the big shoulder joint. The elk stumbled 20-25 yards before falling, obviously dead on its feet. We found the bullet under the hide over the ribs on the opposite (right) side of the chest. It had lost all its petals and retained 62% of its weight.

Have several similar examples of other animals taken with both the original (pre-grooved) X-Bullets and both TTSXs and TSXs. If I recall correctly none of the animals went over about 35 yards before falling.

During a mule deer hunt with Randy Brooks in 2005, the subject of X's losing their petals came up. Randy said he thought when he came up with the X's in the 1980s that losing petals would result in more interior damage, and he designed them to lose petals, at least most of the time. But as their popularity grew more and more hunters started bragging about how X's retained 100% of their weight. Since Randy also believes the customer is "right," he changed the design so they would retain their petals most of the time.

One thing that does tend to happen when they lose all their petals is the front of the bullet flattens and "expands" slightly, which makes a bigger hole--and acts something like a flat-nose solid, but with a "flat" that's wider than bullet diameter. The first one I recovered that had lost all its petals was a 120-grain original X, from one of my 6.5x55s that shot that bullet really well at around 3000 fps. The animal was a big axis deer in Texas, quartering toward me at around 130 yards. I aimed for the near shoulder, and the buck ran about 30 yards and keeled over.

The bullet broke the shoulder joint, and under the hide on the opposite flank, just behind the ribcage. It retained 77.5% of its weight, and the front end had expanded to .41 inch--over 50% wider than the shank of the bullet. Would the buck have died quicker if it had retained its petals and 100% of its weight? Dunno, but it died quickly.

Have also found broken-off petals at both the entrance and exit wounds, and very occasionally inside the innards--including one in the heart of a big whitetail buck.

Our elk didn't go far, less than 40yds, excellent results like always when using Barnes bullets. Internal damage was impressive considering the the bullets didn't mushroom or shed petals. The average weight retention of the bullets was close to 95%. I highly recommend Barnes LRX and TTSX bullets but they're not magic. Barnes bullets won't fail when you need them to break a shoulder bone, or need penetration for a frontal or going away shot to reach the vitals.

Good to know enough damage was done with that expansion. To this day regret not shooting a legal bull moose at 550yds with a Barnes a few years ago. I was worried about a circus. Thought it would come closer, but it disappeared.

Barnes lists the minimum expansion velocities, and for safety sake, I add a couple hundred fps to their value! I make certain that my longest shot is within that parameter. That’s not a problem for me……with my cartridge/load, that velocity window is 300 yards beyond my self-imposed 600 yard limit!

Though, even with expansion only to bullet diameter (Barnes claims 1600 fps)…….I still making a minimum hole size of 3/8” @ 1200 yards! 😉 memtb

Do you actually know what an "!" is for?

Barnes and any other mono is the worst choice one could choose.

What is the proper choice?

Like most of your opinions and statements…….incorrect! memtb

Like most of your opinions and statements…….incorrect!

And yes……I do know what an exclamation point means! If my use of it offends you…..tough titty! memtb


Exclamation mark
Punctuation mark to show emphasis
The exclamation mark is a punctuation mark usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feelings or to show emphasis. The exclamation mark often marks the end of a sentence, for example: "Watch out!". Similarly, a bare exclamation mark is often used in warning signs. The exclamation mark is often used in writing to make a character seem as though they are shouting, excited, or surprised. Other uses include:
In mathematics, it denotes the factorial operation.…
Wikipedia

It doesn't offend me, it's just really annoying.

😂 ! memtb

What type of bullet performance did you observe this year?

Did not hunt with success…..no shots fired, this year! But previous seasons where shots were fired, and Barnes bullets used…. the bullet performance has “always” been very good! I can’t say that with cup and core bullets!

I do hope that my use of quotations does not also annoy you……not! memtb

My apologies to the OP for being a participant in derailing an otherwise great thread! memtb

memtb, HJ is very confident of his vast knowledge. I once asked him how many elk he had taken. His reply was I will show you a couple this fall. I don't follow him much just when I come across his tidbits of knowledge. lol. No all of us were successful this fall in all our hunts, but this guy makes me wonder what and where he has done anything.

Thanks partner! I’ve had him on ignore for a long time…..but, caved to my curiosity as to what his comment was!

Definitely a weakness on my part!


I again apologize to the group! memtb

Actually I take advice from people that actually know stuff (not memtb). Then I go put that advice to use in a real life setting. It's really simple.

And no, unfortunately I didn't double up on elk this year. Only a bull. Bummer.

I am sure it is. How dozen elk does that make you?

Why so angry? Because I disagree with you?

Not angry I just would like to know how much experience you have, not your pals.

I've killed enough animals to know monos suck. I'll keep using "match" bullets and keep killing stuff. You keep sitting on the couch and reminiscing

I really don't sit on the couch reminising. Seem touchy there. Just what I thought.

Back on bullets please.

Back to bullets

I usually post this with the title of Data Points.

The last 7 years we have been fortunate to draw tags to hunt cow elk in late December. This year I used a 7mm-08 with factory Barnes 120 TTSX bullet.
i just posted in the Image Gallery, and it was a pass through at 381 yards

With the caveat that this has been strictly cow elk, the following were used:

2- 7mm-08 ( 140 grn Trophy Cooper and 120 grn TTSX
2- 308 ( 165 grn Accubond and 150 grn TTSX)
3- 270 ( 130 grn TTSX)

Ranges between 270 and 400 yards and all pass throughs with one exception being the 150 grn TTSX found under the skin on the off side.

270 @ 3100fpsMV cow at 315 yards one shot.

Staggered about 20 yards and went down.

Which version of X is that?

130 TTSX

Thanks.

At the risk of having my "rifle looney" card revoked, makes you wonder why we bother with anything else for 99% of our big game hunting.....

I am sorta thinking of making it a Hammer bullet try out this year. I might load up a few in my main guns and try them out for myself. A few good folks I trust have done really well with them last fall. So far I have picked up some 189 and 196's for my 300 RUM/H&H and 172 Absolute Hammers to try in the Mashburn. Need to get a bullet for the 338's and maybe a small one for my 7-08.. Figured it might be cool to give them a solid run in a few guns I use for elk and deer.

I'd be really interested in how they work out.

Bill, there are a few lurking about on here that have used them on deer and elk and reported excellent stuff. I think the fragging front end maybe the missing link, but who the heck knows. I know from the few I have worked with in the Whelen and the RUM previously, they shoot without fuss. Just load them to mag length in most guns and get to shooting.

Anyone killed elk with the Speer 165 Hot Cor from any 300 WSM or close to it? I'm wondering how they do, I can load them short enough through this new to me Kimber.

How about any 300 Mag and the old Speer 180 Mag Tip? I have a friend, an Afrikaner in South Africa) that uses/well used, the 180 Mag Tip out of his Remington 700 .308 and a 300WM he built himself ( a Bofors* machine gun barrel, chambered for the Win Mag and screwed into a Musgrave Receiver) for culling operations. Shoot game all night, reload ammo all morning, sleep all afternoon he said, ha. He tried to head shoot, of course, but sometimes had to shoot at the biggest part he could see in the kill area. He shot alot of Cape eland with both rifles. Maybe still does, lost track of him 20yrs ago. Afrikaner's are "different, Mrs Gump".

* He was soldier and the part-time Armorer in his Army unit that fought the ANC (Mandela's buddies) Commies on the Border and later Cubans in Angola. He said he had access to equipment to turn that Bofors barrel down to manageable weight. It looked like a Varmint barrel. Crude but this was during the Sanctions, a Hunter left him the Remington 700 before the Apartheid sanctions I mean. He shot alot of "elk sized critters" and used alot of bullets ( wherever and from whomever) so he learned alot. I "know" what he told me about how they did (very well) and I wanted to "ask" how you guys liked them on elk. I just thought this would fit here, (since I have always been obsessed with elk) if not, please excuse my ignorance? lol

Used their Grand Slam bullets years ago on deer and one elk, they worked pretty well. Don’t know if the mag tip was much different than those. These days with all of the excellent premium bullets we have like the Swift, Nosler, Barnes, North Fork and Hammer I don’t use anything else out of a magnum for elk.

Not a long distance hunter. Longest shot on elk was with my BDL in 270 Win. 150g Partition at 3000 fps. Elk went about 30 yards then laid down and died. Partitions or A-Frames even with their BC being less than ideal are still my bullets of choice, except for my 500 Jeffery which loves the 570g TSX.

Mine too, along with Accubonds and Hammers.

I know for a fact the Speer 165 BT is "soft", I used to load it for my friend's 30-06 for those little Texas deer (about like a Pronghorn). One of them took his best buck a tad over 300yds. We all took behind the shoulder/heart/lung shots on them, not much meat! I just figured a lot of the guys who like to use Match bullets (dump all the energy inside) guys may have tried them. No doubt they would on cow elk. I just wondered about the occasional shoulder shot, if they bloodshot alot?

The old Speer Mag Tip has a beefed up jacket, pretty tough bullet. I'm going to see if this 300 WSM likes them. Its a "spare" rifle anyhow, may never end up killing game with it, but it will accompany me on elk hunts/coyotes/deer/antelope/exotics for sure. I'm going to shoot those 165's around 2950-3000 like a "hot" long barreled 30-06! ha

At those ranges you must be missing the shoulders and spine bones to get pass throughs? With the exception of the AB, I would think the barnes would shed petals and speed if they hit bone other than ribs.

Monos are the best bone crushers I’ve seen.

^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^

And if you don’t go “light for caliber” like many people like to do……you can often get end to end penetration on elk sized game…..even after hitting heavy bone!

As a general comment - accurate, fast, high weight retention, deep penetration …..what’s not to like! memtb

Two of the three cows with the 270 were quartering away shots, and both bullets ran through quite a bit of internals prior to exiting on the off side. I did not check the shoulders for any damage as both dropped within feet of where they were standing. The 150 grn TTSX recovered did shed two pedals.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/19123055/barnes-ttsx-130

The 270 130 grn TTSX posted in the Image Gallery was recovered from my Aoudad this year. Again, quartering away at 278 yards. It did not shed pedals and weighed 129 grns. It mirrors what Blacktailer posted earlier.

All of the elk I have taken with the monos pretty much had a double diameter exit wound and none of the cows have gone more than 50 yards. My friend still uses the 165 Accubond in his 308 with great results as well. The one big difference I have seen is the amount of blood-shot meat damage on his elk.

I was impressed this year with the performance of the 7mm-08 with the 120 TTSX.

I have gone the full circle of using 280, 7mm Mag and 338 Win Mag for elk and now back to using the calibers listed above. If I ever win the lottery and draw a bull tag, I'll reach for the 270 as I have confidence in that rifle bullet combination.

I may try the 270 Trophy Copper rounds next as they are E-Tips which Federal adds relief grooves.

You are one first-class Canadian idiot.

Density physics must be omitted in Canada's grade schools.

Are you related to Jackson Handy, by chance?

Sorry, Winters!

Well, I lost the Bid on those Speer 165s, just as well. After some thought I ordered some 154 Hammers to try. They have a short nose, was told they work swell in a 300 WSM. Make Do Won't Do, lol.
P.S. It can be called a "Mono" but a big 44 and/or a big 45 caliber 300+ gr Hard Cast with a wide Meplat is supposed to be real a "Bone breaker" too. I've shot alot of backstops, etc with 44 Mags, 45 Colts (in revolver and levergun) 444 Marlins, 45-70 and penetration was not lacking, ha. I have shot a couple dozen Plains Game , Texas Exotics, local Game, near and far with Barnes X, and Barnes XBT, XLC and TSX and I like them. I've shot alot of Hammers, but no Game yet. It would take a pretty big bore heavy softnose to take Game on some of the angles I have using them! But Life is short, I like to experiment.

Jim, I’ve never personally used them…….but I don’t think that you’ll be disappointed! memtb

Hey there Uncle Memt, I have shot wads of them when I was living in Texas out of that old 1917 Enfield Sporter. I have only shot Barnes TSX & TTSX 165s from the last two 300 WSMs I've loaded for, and they were wicked for my friend on elk, Red Deer, etc. What I love about Hammers over Barnes, Memt , is seating depth is a non issue with them! Near, far, they don't seem to care, ha. I have to load pretty short on this new to me Kimber. Meanwhile, my very favorite rifle, the Mark V ULWT A-Square is being reamed to the 338/06 Ackley Improved, which is a good looking round to me, and plenty fast enough for how I hunt. I have smaller rounds, but 338 and up are serious elk medicine, Amen? And there is an Aussie who has used that 154 HHT on alot of game of all size down-under in his WSM. Swears by them.

Well, I don’t guess that I’ll have to work very hard to convince you of their worth! So, good luck with this, your latest endeavor! memtb

Jim, I have 3-4 boxes of the Speer 165's if you're still interested in trying them.

Don’t confuse the poor thing. She’s too “dense” to understand that the word “mono” does not imply a particular density value, nor that density is not the most important variable in penetrating hard barriers like bone.

Or skull? lol

Thanks Young Teeder, but I'm going to wait. In fact, I'm not very sure they aren't "too pointy" to work well in this particular rifle. I "think" it has a sorta short throat and it may be just the way I measured it. At the moment, its the only .30 cal in my cabinet and it is a spare. Thank you though for thinking of me!

👍

Grandslams are very short.
One of the reasons I prefer them in my 7mm-08's, along with working great.

215 Hybrids have worked great for me. If there's anything better I haven't found it yet. I also use 180 hybrids in my 7 RM and they are almost as awesome as the 215s on elk.

Well DAYUM!! That's where they all went! Maybe not a bad investment......worth about $75 per box of 50 now and not getting any cheaper.

Don't mind me....just jealous is all. I would have done the same, except I do have a 7mm-08 and a 7mm Rem Mag. Perfect for the mag and not too shabby in the '08 either.

I plan to load 175g A-Frames in my new to me 7mm Rem Mag. Right now I'm shooting 175g factory corelokts for sight in, practice and cases.