Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Elk bullets - calmly

With apologies to the original author of the word "calmly" in the title - I think it was part of a title from John B that I'm recalling.

I read the 24 Hour thread on minimum elk cartridge and the link to the Rokslide discussion on using target bullets on game, all 250+ posts. Very interesting post. Form D provided much of the discussion and his opinions backed by data – a rather refreshing approach.

It seems there is 2 camps: those that want maximum damage and possibly bullet fragmentation, and those who want maximum bullet integrity and penetration. I found the thread on use of target bullets very interesting and led me to consider my own thoughts. Quite unintendingly, I’ve migrated to monos – 150 etips in my 308, 129 LRX in my 270, 185 TTSX in my 338 Fed. This wasn’t entirely intentional. I tend to default to 2 bullet holes in the hide and penetration side of the debate, especially for things bigger than deer.

What I’m chewing on is the concept of permanent wound channel. I have my own empirical evidence of this. I’ve killed a few animals with monos and some are still alive when I get to them 5+ minutes later. Last years cow elk was still alive when I got to her and shot her again for good measure even though she wasn’t getting up. I had a much “worse” incident 15 years or so ago with a WT doe and a 25-06/100 TSX where she simply stood there for a couple mins, then laid down, finally died but likely took 3-4-5 minutes. I’ve also tracked more than a few deer for my dad using a 7 SAUM/140 TSX. Internal trauma is usually less than I'd expect. I’ve had 3 animals run uphill quite a ways, 100 yards or so, after being plunked through the lungs with a mono. Last years cow ran up a steep hill for ~ 100 yards, then hung a left a ran parallel to the hill before laying down.

Thinking through this a bit, I’m a bit unnerved by it frankly. I’ve shot a pile of deer with a homemade recurve, wood arrows, and 2 blade cut-on-impact broadheads (Zwickey FYI). It ain’t foot pounds of energy that kills animals, its massive trauma to blood carrying vessels and/or central nervous system that kills them. I’m also not convinced a large caliber, high velocity rifle is the answer either – I’ve shot enough things with various 300 and 338 magnums and haven’t noticed a big difference in how quickly things died with a hole plunked through both lungs. All this to say, animals seem to react about the same when drilled through the lungs with a broadhead or a 338 WM. Bones are a different story.

We have a bunch of excellent bullets these days, which in my mind has lowered the floor on what constitutes a minimum elk/similar game cartridge. But I think a key take away from the rokslide thread is the concept of permanent wound channel. Which begs the question of narrow, deep wound channels. I’m not sure I agree that a small hole through the lungs is equivalent to a larger hole. A fieldpoint through the lungs of a deer is a piss poor killer – I’m not going to elaborate other than to say it wasn’t me.

Instead of thinking about cartridge/bullet minimums, maybe the better question is how big is the permanent wound channel and how deep does the bullet penetrate. Is the combination of permanent wound channel and penetration adequate for my intended application at other than optimal angles (i.e. quartering to/away)?

I am curious what camp you all fall in with respect to animals bigger than deer - fragmentation or 2 holes/penetration? What bullet do you use given your fragmentation/penetration philosophy?

2 holes/penetration. I would use Nosler Partitions, Swift A-Frames, North Forks in my elk rifles.

Being fortunate to hunt elk for over two decades, I have been a part of the post mortem of over 50 elk, of which 90% were cows. Like many, I began with magnum calibers because authors and fellow hunters said it was necessary. This meant I hauled out either a 300 Win Mag, a 300 WSM or a 338 Win Mag.. But after watching other cows goto to the meat shed from hunters using 308's and 270' with cup and core bullets, I began to change my mind. After my own streak of 19 cows and 3 bulls, I am convinced that a reasonably constructed bullet, well placed will do the job. Personally I hand loaded most everything with a Partition and cannot fault its performance at all. The last bull was taken quickly with a 6.5 CM using a 143 gr ELD-X at 115 yards. This year I plan to use a 7x57 with a 140/150 grain Partition. As often repeated here, success comes with proper placement. But use what you are confident with as a mountain rodeo is never a good thing.

Personally I think an exit wound is optimal as it provides for two sources of blood evidence. The quicker the animal loses blood pressure the better. The goal should be a quick clean kill to ensure fast recovery and optimal meat condition.

I used to shoot accubonds. The last six or seven animals, two of which were elk, I used 140gr amax's or eldm's.

I've seen the difference with my own eyes. Put me in the match bullet camp.

Your experience mimics what I have seen. I’ve used about every kind of bullet made and the animals that expired the quickest were those with massive internal damage. There is something to be said for exit holes and external blood loss, but severe damage to the heart or lungs certainly puts them down in a hurry. I still use mono’s in some rifles, but looking back over too many years, heavy for caliber c&c bullets have performed awfully well.

The majority of my elk kills have been with bow, first elk tag I ever had was archery in 1984. My rifles have killed about 60, more cows than bulls, I've taken a bunch of family and friends using my equipment.

Started with my 3006 and original barnes 165s, then TSX when they came out. It's killed up to 4 elk in one season. Only 2 poorly hit animals have moved from the spot, a couple were still alive but not going anywhere.

I did a concrete job for a guy that had a ruger 338, he was a big guy but afraid of the recoil, we made a deal for the rifle as part of the payment. I put a muzzlebrake on it and it was a shooter. First year it killed 4 elk, 3 cows and a bull, closest was 40 yards and longest was 275. I had bought winchester power points, they shot great... not one of those elk went down at the spot, the 40yd perfect standing lung shot acted like it was missed and trotted off. Loaded the brass with TSX 185 and back to DRT but no different than the 3006. My nephew killed his first elk with it when he was 12 and another at 14, I gave it to him when he was 21 and graduated the police academy.

Last 15 years it's been the 708 with 120gr BT, it's just an elk killer, vitals or shoulders, puts them on the ground... I want to see the animal on the ground, not chase after it.

I did kill a cow in January and went back to the 3006 and now loading TTSX, 320yds DRT through the lungs. Sometimes nostalgia rules.

When I had a 270 for my coues gun I had a few youth hunters shoot cows with the 150 NPT, it was meh...

I also killed a cow with my savage 99 308 and 150gr GMX, another nostalgic moment. My first rifle I bought with my summer ranching money and killed all my deer with for 15 years was a 99 in 308.

Kent

I can't speak for elk but holy cow I'm happy I haven't had those experiencnes with monos on deer, OP.

Hunting elk 57 years, I have killed elk with a .308, 44 mag, 30-30, 45-70, 7 Rem Mag, 30-06, and 50 cal ML, all except the 30-06 and 50 cal ML with standard C&C bullets . Probably about 50 total. I really can't say I saw much of a difference in how they died, both bulls and cows . Most with a 30-06 using 180 gr Game Kings, 220 gr Sierra Round nose, and 180 gr Nolser partitions. More with the 220 gr RN and they gave the most consistent kills with the bullet found on the off side under the hide. I have never used a mono bullet.

My biggest bull was with the 180 gr GK, base of neck shot, and it dropped on the spot. I have had few pass thrus with the Partition, although I have killed probably less than a dozen elk with them. I used them because SPS was selling overuns for $13/box.

As a comparison, using a 50 cal muzzle loader, 348 gr Power belt, 80 gr of BH 209, I have found them under the hide on the far side also. With a ML,I strive for a double lung shot.

Comparing a 165 gr GK in a 7 rem mag and a 180gr GK in the 30-06, both had about the same amount of destruction lung tissue. Many had core and jacket separation.They did not die any faster than elk killed with the 180 gr partition or 220 gr RN.

I prefer the finding the bullet on the off side under the hide rather than a full pass thru. Other than giving two holes for more blood, that bullet as it continues on it's way gives you nothing. A fallacy of that is if the hit is high or even midway, the body cavity still has fill with a certain amount of blood before it leaks out of those two holes. JMHO

Two thoughts: First, for the fragmentation crowd, how do you feel about less than broadside shots? Shoulder bones? Second, the 7mm-08 raises it head again. I know several other Campfire folks whom I respect also use the 7-08. Same question: what is your experience with major bones and 120-140 grain bullets?

To me, this is the acid test question. Alot of bullets will work on dead broadside shots, but angles and bones add another element that need considered. For me, I've killed 10-11 elk and most have been classic broadside or close to it. At least a couple have not - 1 full frontal, 1 quarter to. 270/150 Part on the frontal, 300WSM/180 Part on quarter to. Two dead elk.

I had a similar experience with deer and monos, and I'm subscribing to the theory of good expanding bullets doing damage to vital organs/CNS. My elk experience with mono's was very positive but I'm not that sold on them. Kudos to those of you who are. My eyes and own experiences don't lie to me.

Where are you hitting these deer, and with what?

Expansion, at least with the monos I've used and the speeds they are used at, hasn't really been much different from lead cored bullets. And stopping the heart is stopping the heart. Same with collapsed lungs.

Lighter 30 cal and 6.5mm seems to kill really the same as anything else. Last one I hit with a lead bullet that wasn't a spine shot was a 308 Win with a 165 Fusion that took out the bottom of its heart and it ran 100 yards leaving a giant blood trail and bone chips floating in puddles.

Ive taken a hard quartering towards shot. Aimed for the point of the shoulder. Impact was very near muzzle velocity. Shoulder was completely shattered, and elk died within 20yds. 140gr eldm. The scapula is not what I would consider a difficult barrier.

Few years back I shot a nice mule deer buck with 30-06 and 165 gr Barnes TSX, the shot was 180 yards away, after the first shot the buck just stood there, I shot again and he barely moved, I reached for friends 6.5 loaded with soft point bullets and aimed just behind the shoulder, at the shot the buck dropped like a rock. When we got to the buck he had a decent hole right at the shoulder and huge hole on the other side of the opposite shoulder made by two Barnes 165 TSX. Both of my shots hit where I aimed broke both shoulders but went clear through without doing any internal damage. The soft point bullet killed it on the spot. After that I started using Nosler Partition bullets. I have a planned elk hunt this fall and due to my shoulder injury I was intending to use 7mm-08 with Barnes 120 TTSX, have any of you used this combo on cow elk. I was wondering if TTSX expand better than TSX.

I agree on the scapula itself but the big knuckle at the humerous-should blade joint is not dainty. You shot through that big knuckle? Did the bullet penetrate through that joint and into the lungs, or bone shards?

Thanks for humoring me.

For me, I don’t care too much about the two holes part, but I like a widely expanding bullet which destroys a pile of stuff. Although I haven’t had too much drama with anything I’ve used from Accubonds, PT’s, Bitterroot Bonded, Hornady ELDx, Scirroccos, and some others.

Fun question that will raise a lot of opinions. I prefer 2 holes for easy blood trailing. I have killed elk with a 280, 7mm-08, 30-06, 338Fed, 338WM, 375HH and a 54cal ML. I have used both C&C and monos. I really have not seen much difference on double lung shots no matter the bullet or cartridge and is the reason the magnums got sold. The only one that went down immediatly was a rag horn with my 30-06 and a 180gr Failsafe (miss those bullets!) that took out both front shoulders. I still have that bullet as it was recovered just under the hide in a picture perfect mushroom. That experience has recently changed where I aim on any game animal. I tend to use monos or bonded bullets and aim so I take out at lease one shoulder. I know it will damage some meat but I should get two holes and hamper the animal's ability to go a long ways after the shot.

The largest number of elk I packed out were shot with 30cal 165gr Hornady Interlocks. The elk I've shot were with 150gr Rem Corelock ammo in 270win and 180gr Fed Hi-Shok in 30-06 as well as 50 cal 320gr Maxi-Balls.

I have no idea if the center fire rounds passed through or terminated inside the elk. The big 50cal bullets absolutely passed clean through. Except for the spine hits, all animals ran 20 to 30 yards and fell. The center fire hit elk took a few minutes and a final shot to die. The elk I shot with the cap-lock fell dead.

Such is the limit of my experience.

You mean we are 2 pages into this thread and not 1 pissing match yet? Lets keep it that way - this is informative. <G>

I shot my first elk back in 1966 with a borrowed .30-40 Krag and whatever factory bullets my Uncle gave me with that rifle. 13 hits later that bull was finally on the ground...2 bullets through the antlers, 3 bullets creased the hair on the top of his back, and 7 more in various places until he finally stopped broadside about 50 yards from me and I put one just behind his shoulder. The best thing that I learned from that "hunt" was to not aim for the head when the animal is so far away that the bead front sight completely covers the elk.

I shot my next 8 elk with my scoped .30-06 shooting 150 grain Hornady or 180 grain Sierra cup and core bullets. All were shot just behind their shoulders and most were one shot kills. None of those bullets completely penetrated the animals.

My next elk was a big 6x6 bull that I shot in Montana's Absaroka Wilderness while I was on my first DIY, solo Unlimited tag bighorn sheep hunt. My rifle on that hunt was my .257 Ackley that I had built for deer size animals. This bull stopped broadside about 75 yards from me and simply dropped dead where was standing when my little 117 grain Sierra Gameking bullet hit him. That bullet hit a rib just behind his shoulder and bullet and bone fragments litterly shattered his lungs and heart, and didn't cut the rib cage on the off side.

When I built my .257 Ackley I also had my .30-06 re-chambered to .30 Gibbs. With the increased velocity of the Gibbs I switched to 180 grain Nosler Partition bullets, and I shot my next 20 or so elk, and 2 Sirias bull moose, with that combination. All were broadside, just behind the the shoulder shots, and most were one shot kills. I found most of those Partition bullets just under the bulls hides on the off shoulder.

In 1973 I also killed an elk with my Herter's recurve bow and a Fred Bear broadhead. It was a 10 yard spot and stalk shot with the arrow entering just behind the bull's shoulder and the point exiting just behind his off shoulder. When he ran through the thick oak brush both ends of the arrow broke off, leaving about a foot of the shaft in his lungs. I wouldn't call a broadhead slicing through an animal's lungs "massave trauma" compared to the large, bloodshot wound channel that a high velocity, high energy bullet would make with the same shot. My arrow shot elk simply drowned in his own blood.

It's energy that drives the arrow or bullet deep into or through the animal.

In recent years I've killed 2 elk with my .300 Weatherby and a Barnes 168 grain TSX bullet and a 168 grain Barnes TTSX bullet. The first bull was about a 100 yard broadside shot that entered just behind his left shoulder and exited behind his right shoulder. He ran 3 steps spraying blood 10' from each hole and collapsed, dead. I was supprised at the small amount of blood damaged meat compared to damaged area from the Partition bullets of my previous elk.

This first pic shows the TSX bullet entrance hole through the hide and into the chest cavity, and the second pic shows the exit holes of that bullet.


When I shot the second bull with my .300 Wby, I didn't follow my personal rule of "not shooting an animal that I want to eat in the shoulder". Because TSX bullet made so little meat damage on the bull that I killed with it, and the only shot that the second bull gave me was a front quartering shot, I shot him on the point of his shoulder. It was also only about a 100 yard shot. The TTSX bullet hit and shattered his upper front leg bone just below the shoulder blade, completley bloodshot about half of his shoulder meat, continued through most of his body, and stopped just under the hide of his off side ham.

I continue to use cup and core bullets for hunting with my .257 Ackley and 7mm Rem mag rifles, but just about all of the animals that I've shot with my .300 Weatherby and my .375 RUM were with either Barnes or Hammer mono copper bullets.

IME with Barnes you need to hit bones or CNS for DRT. Hitting behind the shoulder (classic heart/lung shot) is not going to anchor elk or deer because monos expand less than conventional bullets. With a smaller frontal area you have less permanent wound channel. However, monos offer more penetration.
You can still get the same lethality but just have to realize that you are using a different tool and place your shots accordingly.