Please relate success and failures with smallish bore rifles on elk. Curious.

I've got a 700 CDL .25-06 that has proven to be almost a magic wand on mule deer from 20 - 400 yards. Thoroughly enjoy hunting with it. It seems to drop bucks so well, I get tempted to take it elk hunting. The Noslers just punch right on through too. It's very accurate, and I shoot it well - which can be two different things.

Your thoughts & experiences re smallish bore rifles, .24's, .25's, 6.5's etc for general purpose elk hunting?

Thanks, Guy

I have only shot one elk, used a 257 wby and a 100gr ttsx. It worked fine for me and would do it again with the right bullets.

I normally use a 7mm but I know a lot of guys that drop them with 243's so my best advice is use what you are comfortable shooting. As long as you hit the kill zone they will go down.

I've killed several elk with a 264 win mag, works pretty well. Always used stout bullets though. Did lose a cow that I shot with 130 accubonds with seemingly good shot placement and good blood trail.

Have hunted elk several time with my .257 Roberts. No shots taken. Same thing with my .30-30 and .44 Mag.

one of my friends has hunted elk with a 257 Roberts for decades, like hes said many times,
place the shot correctly and the results a dead elk, but don,t be surprised if you get little reaction to the bullet impact

A 70 year old woman here in Jackson Hole only uses her 257 Roberts. She continually hassels me for using "too much gun", meaning my 308. My 300 win mag sends her into absolute fits!

Killed my first elk with a 250 savage. Then went on to kill a pile of them with a 243. Know several folks that used the 257 and 25-06 right up until the time they got to old to go to the high country and hunt anymore.
Put your bullet where it needs to go, and then get ready to start the business of packing the meat out...

Simular topic taken off another website.
http://shootingworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5270

I personally believe i you know your cartridge,know it's limitation and know the anatomy of the animal it can absolutely be done.
The guy that claims he can shoot his 300Mag as accurately as his 270 is either a heck of a marksman or a heck of a liar....i'm thinking the latter.

Having guided for several years, I'd a lot rather jave a guy show up in elk camp with a .25-'06 that he CAN shoot than a .375 H&H that he CANNOT.

In fact, I saw an outfitter take a .338 away from a hunter that had wounded two unrecoverable elk. He had the guy shoot the cook's .250 Savage ten times off a stump and they went elk hunting.

He got his elk ... took a dirt-nap with a single 100-grain Silvertip.

The next year, he showed up with a .25-'06 and proceeded to get his elk. And for several more years.

Anatomy, hitting the elk in precisely the right place, is vitally important when using any cartridge and/or any bullet.

Take your time, set up the shot, hit the elk right ... and the war is one with the FIRST ROUND. Ignore any of those steps and you are in for a long blood-trail and a bad experience.

God Bless,

Steve

PS. Have I used the .25-'06 on elk? Yep.

Used the Hornady 100-grain Interlocked on a few and double-lung shots killed wonderfully. I also shot a few with the 100-grain Nosler Partition ... they killed fairly quickly, but the Interlockeds killed faster and better.

Both bullet types exited the several elk from the angles I set up. Don't need heavier bullets when that happens.

I've killed elk w/ about everything from a 243 to a 375 H&H. Lots(7, maybe 8) w/ a 6.5x54 M-S. Currently have a lot of love for a 35 Whelen. It just works! As has been stated, it IS the first shot that counts! The little Mannlicher got a lot of laughs until I needed help gettin' the elk from the woods to the truck.
Cheers

I can't even tell you how many guides i've heard say this exact thing.
If you shoot the big magnums as well as you can shoot a 25-06 (most cannot)then i would say to use them,IMO it will give you an advantage.

Son used a 25-06 and a 115 CT on one and a 7mm Rem Mag with a 120 Sierra or Speer loaded light for another. Neither took a step.

A 100 grain Partition bullet from a 243 Winchester rifle through the lungs of an elk means DEAD.

I think we have all had a few encounters with folks like that, I don,t let it bother me in fact its fun at times to play along, when I purchased my 458 win mag I figured Id take it out and use it on an elk hunt (loaded down to 1800fps with a 405 gain remington bullet) for sneaking thru the thicker lodge pole and conifer thickets, where ranges tend to be well under 200 yards,and yes if your interested it works great.
I got a really good deal on a Remington 700 custom 458 win mag rifle after the previous owner decided almost instantly after firing a few times off the bench rest that it was just a great deal more dangerous to his shoulder, to own the rifle than it would be to his checking account balance if he sold it at a significant price reduction.
I mounted a leopold 2.5X scope and felt I had a decent timber rifle that might raise a few eyebrows but certainly would not be lacking in punch or knock-down, even if the recoil was a bit bore than ideal.
if your a bit of a rifle loony, you have at least wanted to try a 458 win or you might own one.
for many years it was about the only really common ELEPHANT RIFLE caliber familiar to most American hunters who failed to read a great deal , as it was always listed on those rifle charts the magazines published and gun-shops had posted, on their walls.
well I succeeded in finding a good deal on a 458 win rifle at a local gun-shop, when its previous owner decided that it was beating him half to death with recoil, after less than 12 shots were fired.
the gun-shop owner was a friend and knew how much of a rifle nut I was so when I was offered a Remington 700 custom shop 458 win, for $700 it found a new home.
and carrying a 458 win in the field is usually a good conversation starter if nothing else.
I started out with some Remington 405grain bullets I had in inventory, loaded over some imr3031 as suggested in one manual, and I found the accuracy was good but the recoil was formidable.
and its fun watching guys faces when they ask you what caliber your using when you reach into a pocket and hand them a cigar size 458 win cartridge, it makes for some silly but entertaining conversations, especially when they show you they have a 243 win, for example,... and don,t get the idea a 458 wins necessary or required, it may be a great choice under some conditions but a skilled hunter with a 25/06 or 270 win can kill deer/elk just as effectively, but as a conversation starter a 458 win works rather well.
now obviously you don,t need to load to its max potential in bullet weight or velocity , as hot 45/70 level loads will drop anything in north America convincingly in skilled hands, with decent shot placement.

I got no reaction to a solid hit from a .280 Remington either...maybe this is also a small caliber?

Have an old Bud that uses the 264 WM and 160 gr Woodleigh PP bullets to kill all sort of NA game, Elk and Moose included.

He wont even discuss another cartridge/caliber. LOL

Gunner

I saw some stats a couple of years ago from Colorado DWF showing elk lost by caliper. It showed all were within the margin of error starting with .257 and up. The only one to show a significantly higher loss was the .243.

I was a believer in larger calibers, thinking 243 was too small for elk, but 2 wweks ago my 15 year old nephew proved me wrong with his first elk ever - a 5pt bull with 2 shots from his 243 with 95gr bullets at about 130-140 yards. Shot placemement!!

Shot what you are comfortable with. I have taken elk mostly with my 300WM with 180gr bullets (Accubonds since2004). I have taken a few with my 270WSM with 140gr Accubonds-very impressed with this combo!!

Anything can be killed by small caliber rifles if the shot is perfect. The thing is, not every shot is perfectly placed, and sometimes several more are necessary. This is when the small bullets are folly. If a raking shot is necessary as follow up and a lot of animal needs to be shot through, a bigger bullet with more energy is always better than a little pill.

Elk also have thick hides that greatly influence a bullet's effectiveness.

IMO a 270 with a good bullet is about the reasonable minimum. Others won't agree.

Guy, I'm with Dogzapper on this totally! I love the 25/06 and if I were to have to use one the rest of my life for all big game hunting (that I'll likely do) well I'd be totally fine with it.

IME the 25/06 is one heck of a killing machine!

I'd like to get a Forbes rifle or rebarrel one of my 70's and wrap a Bansner around it and chamber it for 25/06. Pastor Dan from the Fire sold me 4 boxes of 117 Noz semi's and I'd load them and 7828 and get to filling arks.

The 100 Horn and 7828 is my all time accurate and killing machine load for the 25/06 and 257 Wby.

Long and the short, if the bullets directed properly then the critters going to Croak City Wyoming rather quickly...

Dober

Guy, knowing your background I'd have no problem with you hunting elk with a .25-06, but others might be tempted to shoot outside their range. The .25-06 is a great long range caliber for antelope and coyotes but not elk. A few years ago I drew a special elk tag and it caught me between gun trades. I didn't own anything in a .30. My hunting partner -- and a game warden captain -- suggested I use the .25-06 I owned at the time. I chose not to but only because I didn't want to pack it's bull barrel. I used my Guide Gun instead. But I'm sure the .25-06 would have done the job.

I do,but my minimum is .30 cal ie .308,30-06 and larger.

I'm sure that the Guide gun worked like a charm. However my experience on elk is different than yours and I do feel its a good long range caliber for elk. I've seen a lot of elk taken with the 25/06 and have a couple of buds who've taken a lot of elk with a 25/06 at long, short, close or whatever range.

What is it in your experience of taking elk with a 25/06 that has made you uneasy about it on elk at long range? Personally I feel it's pretty much in the same league as a .270 and that's for sure a fine elk round at any sane range...

Thx
Dober

My first time using a 264 win mag I had a shot skip off the ribs of an elk quartering away. The spotter saw a huge plume of hair and it knocked the bull down.
We couldn't believe it when he got back up.

caliber - I think the 264 was just fine. No blame there. Prolly could have happened with any caliber.
shot placement - Biggest factor no doubt. I have to own that. He was more than quartering away but yet I did have a shot into the upper ribs.
distance - I believe a contributing factor. 490 yds. My personal feeling is a lot of bullet energy lost.
bullet - possibly a factor. 140 gr Berger VLD.

Killed him the next morning at the exact same distance with a better placed shot. Same cartridge.




Took the hide off and found a big black and blue bruise above the ribs where the shot had glanced off. Photo is the kill shot. I should have photographed the external bruise.

Alamosa-I totally love the perro in your avitar!

Dober

Sorry Gravestone, I couldn't pass on that statement. Here's a pic of a target that I shot with my .270 Win and another with my .300 Weatherby. I know, there's 4 shots with the .270 and only 3 with the Bee, but my 2 sight check shots in South Africa and 2 more after I got back home (on different targets) were all in the same place as these 3. I love my .300 Weatherby!!


As for the original question on "Smallish bore rifles on elk?", I killed my second best 6pt bull with a single 117 gr Sierra GamdKing bullet from my .257 Ackley. He literally dropped dead in his tracks. I used to work with a guy that regularly killed his elk with his .25-06, and I was with him one year when he did. I have several other friends (including Scenarshooter, on this forum) who regularly kill their elk with their .22-250s and .220 Swifts.

As others have posted, shot placement with a bullet tough enough to reach the vitals trumps everything else.

Thanks. He goes everywhere with me.

Mark, my concern at long-range is simply bullet placement. If one is experienced with the cartridge and experienced at hunting elk I'm sure its fine, which is what I meant to say in referencing Guy's background.
john

That's nice shooting buffybr but i think that you're more of the "exception" rather than the the "rule". I've been at the range so many times where i see people struggling with a 300WM then pick-up their 308 and get nice groups.

I used to pack a 25-06 loaded with Nosler 120g Partitions. It knocked down a lot of cow and spike elk. I never tried it on a big bull, usually taking a bigger caliber on those hunts.

I broke the stock on that rifle one hunt slipping on ice and decided to try something different and bought a 270WSM that has killed a bunch of elk since I bought it in 2002 with 140g Barnes TSX bullets.

I love shooting the 25-06. And I think it is a heck of a antelope/mule deer gun, But I'm happy now shooting a little bigger slug in the 270WSM.

Guy,
Local family has had over 60+ head of elk hit the freezer via one of your favorite. The 25-06! If I had to guess I'd wager the bullet of choice is prolly a Hornady. I could be wrong. Regardless its a father and his two son's that pile up elk every year. Their biggest a 380+ bull. My son connected on a cow elk with a .260. Lead cow dead run 100yds broadside. BOOM! Dead! withing 3 steps she was on her chin. She flipped and rolled. Went 20yds. 260rem 140 NP. My son shoots clays at 400yds with his 25-06 and 115 partitions and hits come pretty easy. Very accurate rifle. He'd shoot at an elk to 500 giving the chance. Have seen the .260 and 260AI flatten extremely heavy bodied mule deer bucks(as big as they get) with ease.

I can't pass that statement up either.. Sounds like gravestone is talking out his azz.....

Les Bowman wrote in one of his articles way back in the 60's that most of the hunters coming out to hunt elk would be much better served by a 243 or 257 than they were the magnum rifles they were bringing with them.
Bob Milek championed the 257 and 25-06 as good elk guns.
True then true today.

I'm a much better 30-06 shooter today than I used to be. Thanks to the .260rem.

I shoot my 340 Wby just as accurately as my 25-06...if not more so. Both have killed elk with ease...Just took a mature cow elk last week via 340 Wby at close to or maybe exceeding 300 yards.

As a matter of fact i'm headed to Argentina in March for stag and fully intend on bringing my 25-06. I have no worries, though I do prefer a stout bullet.

The 25-06 is one of those rounds that kills better than it "should".

Last month I watch my best bud and his neighbor both down their 4x5 bulls with 6.5x284 and 140 VLD's. My buds was DRT at 275 yds and his neighbors was the same distance where the bull was very sick at the shot and hobbled about 40 yds before dropping.

Alan

I remember the '60s very well. Back then all the hype was velocity and hydrostatic shock. That was all you saw in the magazines. A lot of guys were shooting small-fasts with pretty lousy bullets, too.

Much of what was touted was BS, and some was accurate.

Not much has changed , look at all the BS in this thread posted by folks that don't have a ton of real experience.....
Best I can tell you is that back in the 60's it wasn't unusual to have 15 or 16 bulls, a couple of moose and a dozen deer on the meat poles by the end of the 3rd day of season. The biggest gun you might find in camp was an 06, unless someones army buddy from California or such showed up with some sort of belted magnum cartridge (they usually went home empty... always seemed to be a "problem" with the scope....) Lots of 243,250,257,270 an occasion 7x57 or 6.5 swede or a liberated 98 or carcano, and a couple of 30-40's. Not much for cripples (except the visitor with the bad scope)...
Put a sub thirty cal bullet thru an elks lungs it's gonna die, shoot it in the ass with a "suitable" cartridge, and it might die, but chances are it'll be quite awhile after you've gone home and bitched about bad bullet performance on the internet forums....

29 yrs back in Montana, I hit a big 6pt bull "Park" bull through the shoulders once and lungs 2x with the 180 NP from my 30-06 at 100 yds. He never even twitched. I thought I was missing him. He finally got rubbery legs when the 4th shot raked up through his left flank and stopped under the right brisket hide.

Alan

Alan, show a picture of your pre 64 9.3x62 in the other forum please. Thanks buddy...

I won't argue with you there. I like to shoot, and I'm at the range almost every week of the year shooting shotgun, rifle, and/or pistols. I've done so for at least 40 years. I probably pop more caps in a week than most hunters shoot in a year. I've also customized/modified my .300 Weatherby and my .375 RUM (and 3 of my shotguns) so that they fit me and they don't kick the s**t out of me. It dosen't hurt me to shoot them, and I reload all of my shells, so I shoot them a lot.

A couple of years ago, one of my antelope hunting buddies showed me a box of his .270 cartridges and asked "Do you remember these?" I told him that I didn't really remember them and he said that I had loaded them for him about 10 years previously. So basically he had shot only about 10 shells in 10 years.

I started hunting elk in the late 60s when I lived in NW Colorado. The locals that I worked and hunted with all used cartridges like the .30-06, .270 Win, .257 Roberts, and .243 Win. They said only the city dudes from Denver would bring out big guns like a .300 Win mag, but they often couldn't hit anything because they were afraid to shoot them.

There is a lot of hype in outdoor magazines, on TV, and on the internet that you need a big caliber cannon to kill an elk, and of extreme range hunting shooting. In reality, you need to be comfortable and familiar with your gun and spend a lot of time on the range with it. I also believe that a true hunter will try to get as close as possible to the animal that he is hunting, and make an ethical, quick kill.

This past fall, I helped with one of the "public sight-in days" that our gun club puts on every year just before the big game season. This allows non-members to shoot and sight-in their rifles with help from member shooters. Of all of the shooters that I helped or saw that day, I don't think any of them would have any business shooting at any animal at any range past 200 yds, reguardless of their rifle or scope.

Good post buffybr. Like i said you're more the exception. Most guys aren't gonna be accurate shooting a box of shells a year a week before they go hunting out of a hard recoiling gun.

My daughter killed her elk this year with my .270. Granted, it was a small elk, but it was BANG/FLOP. It literally dropped like a sack of potatoes when she shot it.

I have seen my .270 cause so much carnage and damage in the animals I have taken with it, that I would not hesitate for a SECOND to shoot almost anything in N.A. with it.

That gun is SO dialed in, and I am SO comfortable with it, that when I pull the trigger I have no doubts as to the outcome. I'll take that over a 300-whatever any day of the week.

From Zero to 600yds if you struggle to kill bulls with a 243/105gr combo then adding recoil will only add problems.

You need to be shooting way beyond 600yds to need more gun than the .243/105 VLD combo.

My M99R Savage .250 came out of North Central Wyoming where the guy who had it hunted everything with that one rifle. Old Pete told me he used 87 grain bullets for deer and antelope, but switched to 117s for elk. Said he liked to get close on elk and shoot them in the neck.
Once I got the rifle and started working up loads I found he'd made a wise choice. That partial box of Sierra 117s that came with the rifle and about any powder I tried gave a "group" bordering on 6" with several of the holes showing keyholes. Didn't seem to matter much to him, he'd fed his family with it for years.

When I first started tripping out west to hunt it was before I had killed any elk....but on the ranch where I stayed the rancher and friends (locals) all had elk licenses,so I saw quite a few shot with a range of stuff.

I was stunned into silence by the ranchers "elk" rifle...a Savage 99 takedown in 250-3000 with not a vestige of finish on wood or metal,no scope,and a piece of tire screwed onto the butt as a recoil pad....I kept my mouth shut,which was smart.It was a lesson in many things,and I had been "invited",so best to be quiet and watch what happened.

As the years rolled by I would grab a beer after dinner, go to the game barn and trace wound channels through elk carcasses...I don't recall how many 100 gr Silvertips,and Hornady's we dug out of elk carcasses but it was quite a few,along with a bunch of other bullets of different calibers,but many were 24 and 25 from the 250 and 257, 243 and 25/06,and those that got inside and expanded killed elk pretty well.

I did notice that heavy for caliber bullets did a better job by penetrating farther;and that bullets of larger diameter generally did more damage.That I was digging through an elk carcass was an indication that enugh damage was done to kill.

I think we are hard wired to expect something to happen immediately when we pull the trigger, but elk are phlegmatic animals and I have seen big bulls take shots through the ribs from stuff like 300 and 338 magnums and never flinch;shots landing on bone are a bit different.Others reacted by simply collapsing.Reaction is all over the map.

This lack of reaction leads some to start a progressive climb up the caliber ladder for elk with no end in sight,and seems to top out at 375 caliber for some,and in some areas even bigger;but unless you spend the range time that guys like BuffyBear puts in, going over a certain recoil threshhold gets counter productive as accuracy deteriorates,as John Burns indicates.This doesn't stop some people who cling to the delusions about powerful rifles.

That Wyoming rancher? In exchange for being such a great guy and letting me hunt there, I built him a couple of 270's years ago ;after his 250 Savage he thought a 270 Winchester with a 4X Leupold was a magic wand,and the outfit has killed so many elk and big mule deer, both he and I have lost count; among the many reasons I chortle on here when I read some peasant bad mouthing the 270 and with a straight face expecting me to believe it....


Last month he emailed me a picture of a 360 class bull he had killed with the 270 and some handloaded 130 Bitterroots I left at the ranch.

^^^very well said.

Ghostwalker TX.

Still gay. .270, that is...

Good post BobinNH,thanks.

Like i said guys like Buffy are more the exception than the rule.If you're as accurate with a 300WM as you are with a 270,IMO it will give you an edge. Most guys are not and better suited to shooting lighter recoiling guns.

BobinNH.. good post!

I agree with the vast majority of that post, but I will say that Ive noticed a measurable increase in the number or percentage of deer and elk that very definitely showed a marked reaction on bullet impact when I swapped from a 30/06 to a 340 wby, now both proved fatal with a single hit,so Im not saying one calibers more deadly than the other, but I had more elk run a short distance, before dropping, when hit in similar areas with my 30/06 than with my 340wby
and yes that may be partly due to bullets used.

29 yrs back in Montana, I hit a big 6pt bull "Park" bull through the shoulders once and lungs 2x with the 180 NP from my 30-06 at 100 yds. He never even twitched. I thought I was missing him. He finally got rubbery legs when the 4th shot raked up through his left flank and stopped under the right brisket hide.

Alan [/quote]

Very nearly the same thing happened to me with the same load. It was a big cow and it was at 60 yards. On the third shot it shivered like it was bitten by a horse fly. Then it collapsed.

I bought a .338 as a result. It doesn't kill faster but they do seem to give a better indication of a hit.

I am back to packing an '06 part of the time for elk.

BobinNH, you're right on there.

Lighter bullets loose their energy and momentum faster than similar heavier bullets with the same Ballistic Coefficent, so, on equal shots, they will not penetrate as deep as the heavier bullets.

IMO a 600 yd shot at a bull elk with a .243 Win is too far away, regardless of the rifle or scope. The energy and momentum just isn't there to reliably make a clean kill on an animal the size of an elk. I respect the animals too much to try stunt shots like that.

Several years ago, a friend and I had our .22-250s at our local gun range, and for fun we were shooting at the 450 yd Ram silouette steel targets. We could hear our .22 cal bullets ring the steel, but none of the targets would fall over. When we switched to our .270 and .30 cal rifles, the Rams fell with every hit.

I've been lucky enough to have lived most of my life in elk country. It costs me little more than the price of a resident, geezer elk tag to kill an elk. I also have up to a 4 1/2 month rifle hunting season for elk. Any year that I don't kill and elk is basically because I choose not to shoot one (like this year). This is a lot different than the non-resident hunter that only has a week or so to hunt elk and will pay from several thousand to over $25,000 to hunt elk.

At those prices, you want to kill your elk quickly, and not waste your hunting days trying to find a wounded animal. This is where the heavier bullets and larger calibers are beneficial. Although I have killed elk with smaller calibers (and even a sharp stick!), I feel that a good .30 caliber bullet at 3000 or more fps will hunanely kill an elk for any shot that I want to take.

And Bob, I don't know how you came up with "BuffyBear" in your previous post, but here's a pic of me and Buffy Bear, my best friend for 14 1/2 years, and a bull that I shot (with my .30 Gibbs and a 180 gr Partition) on the hill behind my home a few years ago.

Hell of a good lookin' dog there. The elk is okay too - I hope he (the dog) got some of it.

Shorty (an Australian Shepard) helped find this elk.....dogs are not at all bad to have along on an elk hunt

Great post Bob (as per usual). I too get tired of the smack you hear around here anymore..I still call bullchit on the guy that says "if you say you can shoot a magnum better than your 270 then you are lying". Pure fn BS... We are still talking shooting at game in field conditions arn't we? We all know John Burns and Wayne Van Zwoll can put them down at long range with small bore cartridges like the 243 and I have a lot of respect for guys with that ability. However, they too know their limitations. I will damn sure agree with Bob in that the 270 will flat put an elk down when hit right, just as any cartridge will that has the opportunity to penetrate the vitals and cause enough trauma to turn the lights out: A 223 in the right spot will cause this. The moral of the story: use what you are comfortable with, know your limitations, practice (and then practice more!!!!), respect the game animal you are shooting by using proper bullets, put them down as humanely as you can and make your first shot count!!! When it comes to elk hunting, make sure you are prepared, be safe, and know it's going to be a lot of work after you pull the trigger!!

I've seen somewhere near a dozen elk turfed with a 260, 140 grain bullets. For sure 3 w/ 140 SGKs, 4 with 140 NABs, 3 with Partitions. Killed them as fast as anything, no real discernible difference in time from "pop" to dead elk. Partitions are still truckin', recovered one NAB, SGKs came apart with no exit. Phuggit, 140 SST or AMAX will get the nod on the next few...

I'd have no more qualms fillin' wapiti tags with a 243 or quarter bore than I would with a 338 if that's what my heart desired.

buffybr: lots of my first years elk hunting was done with a 300 magnum of some sort and 180-200 gr Nosler Partitions,and i guess this was because,after looking at enough elk carcasses,I was trying to move from "adequate" to "thoroughly sufficient"..with some built in "excess".I noticed these cartridges and the 338 types killed elk very dramatically if the bullets landed in the right place.

Today I am so confused I never know what the hell to use.... By the time I think I have it all figured out John Burns comes along with a little gal and snuffs an elk at 600 yards with a 243 or something similar and I grumble...."there's that damned bullet placement thing again..."


I envy that you live so close to elk country and get to pursue them handily.Great way to live.

The BuffyBear thing was just snatched outta thin air because I know your handle on hear but could not recall exactly how it was spelled so just went for what I assumed it stood for....I must be clairvoyant or lucky or something but glad I struck a chord for you and your favorite dog.

I remember Buffy well. She was one of the coolest dogs I've ever known.

Kurt, remember that sheep hunt the three of us did in the Hilgards back in 85'?

340/Gravestone; Thanks....I try very hard to be as objective about cartridges as I can because I have found we can get wrapped around them emotionally,which clouds judgement,and that said I did not mean to make it sound like elk and other game shrug off hits from 300 mags and 340's....only that I have here and there seen it happen but even more often I have seen a 340 Weatherby in the hands of my old elk hunting pal, Paul (a cigar chewing,fire plug of a guy with the emotions and physiology of a steel girder ) snuff out elk right now with his 340 Weatherby,a left handed Mark V in a Brown stock.

He is one of those people who handles a 340 like a fairy wand and the 340 in his hands puts a serious bounce on bull elk,and I agree...those magnum mediums do seem to get their attention better than the smaller stuff.

Me, I am more high strung and delicate and can use less bounce at the butt end...

With the better bullets we have today, I think the 'minimum' cartridge needed for most game is less than most think. 15 years ago killing deer with a 223 was out of the question, now with the ttsx bullets its no big deal. (other premiums as well)

Knowing your shooting experience Guy I'd rather have you and your 25-06 in my elk camp than everybody else and their magnums. Pick a good bullet and please share photos!

Matt

Respectively disagree...15 years ago I was in high school and killed deer and antelope (not elk mind you) with 22 CFs and el cheapo wallyworld rounds. Never had a problem but I also have always avoided bone.

When I moved out of CA 12 years ago, a friend had 14 sets of elk horns mounted on the wall of his den. What did he use? A .243 with 87gr BTHP's "loaded as fast as they will go", which I assume means 3200+ fps.

There's all kinds of "elk hunting." Taking a bull in the back 40 or in plains country is a bit different than in the timber. In the timber I'm of the opinion it doesn't hurt to have a little more gas than, say, a 243. Certainly the 243 will work, but I'm generally convinced something like a 270 or 30-06, will work better more consistently.

Interesting thread.

If the draw goes my way, my 30-06/168tsx combo will get the nod for hunting massive Roosevelt bulls in the alpine on Etolin Island in 2013. 243ai and 105's will stay at home.

Here's a 168 TSX from my 30-06 I pulled out of a timber bull. I'd have a lot more confidence in it than anything from a 6mm.

Well you should.

I never hear anybody bragging about the shot they buggered, leaving a wounded animal out there a long way off. We all know this happens, and it happens to good shots, too.

Once the little bullets lose their energy on out, they don't perform well or expand at all, sometimes.

When I was a young married guy with a new baby things got very hard financially. I admit to poaching deer to feed my family back then and did it with a 22 LR. It worked.

Nobody here would be foolish enough to call a 22 LR a deer round.

That's just it... chit happens hunting and I like to stack as many things in my favor, within reason, to ensure a favorable outcome. Hunting elk with a 243 ain't one of them.

It's one thing being a young person with an "un-seasoned" shoulder, it's another thing to being able to handle a bit more recoil, but choosing not to. I can't get behind the latter...

Some "un-seasoned" shoulders for ya. Can't for the life of me see how it gets [bleep] harder or requires more gun as you grow or get older...

None are very big elk... nothing like a mature bull.

And I've personally seen rodeos with the 6mm on elk... both lung shots.

Stow your attitude dude, we're having a pleasant conversation here.

So am I...

Apparently you and I have a different view of pleasant:

DUDE.

Brilliant.

FWIW, this bull took more hits, from first "pop" to turf, of any I've seen. 300 Win Mag and 180 original X.



The two that were recovered would be the left two in the top row.

Ain't it?

Beat's "ignorance" I suppose...

Guess you'd be correct on that one...

The biggest rodeo's I've ever been on were all elk shot at and hit with a 300win mag by a couple different hunters. I've no doubt that a very high percentage of elk hunters are better off shooting a 308, 7mm-08, 270, 260, 25-06 than any big .30 or more. The biggest elk(rosie) that I ever saw go down was hit with a .260rem and 140 NP's. She looked like a damn Chevy truck running across the hill. Some shoot big pretty good. Most shoot smaller better.

Prezactly... and I'd further that statement by offering that I don't believe a guy can shoot big pretty good till I've seen him shoot big pretty good. And I've been known to trick a guy into a HUGE flinch with an empty chamber.

Elk my old 110 gutted and skinned this year was shot with a AR .223.
Long story short it included people I don't care to involve ( all legal) so I will leave it at that, except to add it died on the spot where shot.

No I don;t actively Hunt elk with a an AR but they work fine with proper shot placement.

BTW a Dewalt 18 volt sawsall sure is good way to split a elks brisket, and no it wasn't in a fenced game farm.

Just sayin.

For the last 20 years or so I have carried A NAF 1 5/8 barrel 22 in my front pocket for Coup de gr�ce, been used on two elk and two deer, broken backs/necks etc; One proper placed shot in the forehead has been instant death to all.

Beats the hell outta a 06 head shot at 30 yards, mudh less messy.

Interesting thread, and the same old tired arguments every thread like this decomposes into.
This is also my favorite rant, so sit down, crack a beverage, and I'll add my experiences and observations, for what they are worth.
I've lived in western Colorado almost my entire life, and been blessed to hunt elk for the past 38 years. I started guiding at 19 and continued to work as a guide for almost 30 years, 9 as a licensed outfitter.
As has been recounted already, there was a time almost all the locals I knew used an '06, .270, 30-30, or .300 Savage. Throw in a few 30-40 Krag's my dad's .303 and the occasional surplus 8mm and you had most of the bases covered. About the only guys that used magnums back then were the city guys and dudes from states where there were no elk. There were some locals that used magnums, but I only knew one well, and he couldn't hit anything with it anyway.
I really preferred to see my clients show up with a standard rather than a magnum because most of them couldn't shoot one very well resulting in a lot of missed or poorly placed shots. With the old C&C bullets most hunters used, the magnums tended to tear hell out of a game animal, ruining a bunch of meat.
I have to say that the majority of guys I see shooting magnums would be better served with a standard of some sort, because they could shoot it with a much greater degree of accuracy. There are guys that can shoot a magnum with the same degree of accuracy as a 22-250, but they are still very much in the minority.
IMO, the main advantage in of a magnum is range. "Smallish" bore rifles, as this thread is about, are perfectly suitable for elk at normal elk ranges - 200 yards or less, and I would not hesitate to use them at 300, further than the average hunter can accurately shoot at anyway. The magnums, depending on caliber and bullet selection, can be used to kill elk out to 1K plus, but again, you have to place the bullets right - there is no avoiding good bullet placement.
I have been fortunate to shoot a lot of elk, 49 and counting. I started out with an '06 at 15, and quickly developed a flinch that took a lot of shooting with reduced loads to overcome. Over the years my elk rifles got bigger, 7 mags, numerous 30 cal mags, 338, 358 STA, .458 Win mag. They all killed elk just fine, but were mostly unnecessary. For the past 4 years I am back to a .270, .270 WSM, 7-08, and a 7 Rem mag that is mostly used for long range marmots.
Shoot what you want, for the most part it doesn't matter. If you shoot well, you will kill elk. If you don't shoot well, even a magnum can't save you.

Good post Brad.

Would add 260, 7-08, 308, etc... all have decent bullet weight and good SD. Helps getting inside a big bull. They're whole other animals than the average middlin' cow. Like I said, there's all kinds of elk hunting and that would also include body size...

This has been my experience also. Best i remember is a few guys being able to shoot 300mags and larger as well as they can shoot a 308 or 270.

I like this post (above) much better than your earlier one (below):

Bsa 1917hunter

"The guy" statement was not a blanket statement. It was directed at the fella in the link that i post along with that statement.That "guy" post more "unbelieveable" statements ,to put it nicely.

As has been posted in this thread by me and others some can shoot heavier recoiling rifles as good as they can shoot lighter ones. In my experience most cannot.

I'll buy that...

I agree whole heartedly with the above. Even wild pig guides cringe when guys show up with cannons, and many will make them shot it to prove they are competent with the rifle.

Over the past several years, I took each of my boys on guided cow elk hunts for their first elk hunt, and I had each use his trusty deer rifle, which was a 30-06 with 180 grain accubonds in it, and the other boy used his 270 win that I loaded with 130 grain TTSX's. The guide was glad they didnt show up with magnums.
Heck, for giggles, this year I used a 30-06 with Remington factory 180 grain corelocks, and one shot was all it took.

Im in the bullet placement camp. The outfitter told me his boys killed all their cow elk when they were kids with 243 win.

Another good post! Thanks COBrad.

Every guy I have known/met that could not shoot a magnum rifle could not shoot a standard rifle either. That's because they shoot about ten rounds a year.

I have always found that if a guy is a pizz poor shot he is just a pizz poor shot. Cartridge did not matter.

Dink

Here's the flip side.
I had this hunter once that showed up with a .338 Win mag, and he very calmly says he can shoot it. That's all he says.
We ride out to this little draw where I frequently see elk, tie the horses and walk to the edge. A raghorn 5 point gets up and trots up the opposite hillside, somewhere close to 200 yards.
Hunter is standing up aiming at the elk. Sit down, Sit Down! says I... Be Quiet! says hunter. WTF! My hunters don't tell me that!?
So I shut up, sit down, and watch through the bino's. He fires and whacks that bull right behind the shoulder, but a little low. I tell him where he hit, and he slowly fires two more. Both hit center of chest, right behind the shoulder. Elk just stands there until he tips over.
I am floored. Who shoots like that? Turns out he had been an instructor in the military. When we got over to the elk, all three of the shots were fatal, and I could cover the last two with my hand.
There are exceptions.

There is some truth in this, sometimes.
I'm not a great pistolero, but I don't let that stop me. I picked up a 454 Casull this year and took it out that night with the 9 full-power loads that came with it. Holy Crap! I've been shooting reduced loads, and worked up to a load equivalent to what I used to shoot in a .44 mag. With the reduced loads I've hit a lot of volley ball size rocks at the 130 yard mark, out behind the barn. That's with a good rest. I can't shoot those full power loads with any degree of accuracy yet, but if I don't, there are loads that I can shoot that will kill elk.
Second example. I have a custom 7 mag that shoots 180 gr Berger VLD's at 2980 fps. I used it to shoot almost a dozen marmots over 900 yards this year. Of those, two were over 1100. I have no problem saying I can shoot that rifle with a high degree of accuracy.
I think I am a fair shot, but the .458 Win mag was a humbling experience. If I really focused and shot from a kneeling position, I could shoot clay pigeons at 50 yards, and hold minute of elk at 150, but I could only do it for a couple shots, and it depended on the day.

For me, the cartridge does matter.

Very good story Brad. Some guys just know how to flip that switch on to hunt mode (so to speak). Good to see atleast one guy knows how to use a magnum and can do it from my favorite shooting position, within reasonable shooting range (200 yards is a cake walk)........

(200 yards is a cake walk)....grin....

I have never been real good off-hand, so my hat is off to you guys that are.
I was shooting at clay pigeons at the 200 yard mark once with a friend who always talked a good line about his experiences as a force recon marine, blah blah blah. Ya ya, well we were all good at 19.
He wasn't shooting, just watching. Can I try, says he.
Damn guy stands there looking through the scope for a moment, but when he fires the pigeon is dusted. I can't do that off-hand unless it is luck.

Just because "you" apparently can't do that, does not mean that everyone else lacks those skills.

That is pretty much my experience.

A bit of a different twist now...

For years I shot coyotes, jack rabbits and gophers with a 416 Rigby, loaded with 350gr Speers. I had plenty of all these on my place, so I shot it a lot, mostly sitting on the ground on the small rise above my low field.

I have to say it disciplined me to the point I never flinch. It also made me a slightly better shot in general; I had to do everything right or get walloped by the Rigby.

I sold it and miss it, and I don't shoot nearly as much now. I can see some backsliding in my ability. It might just be old age.

I'd add temperament. A rutting bull can be dead on his feet and accomplish some amazing Superman like feats prior to actually biting the dust.

LOL uh ok that's why i said that LOL!!! Read futher and you'll see why i said it.

The majority of authorities seem to agree that recoil of over 20 ft. lbs. will cause the average shooter to develop a flinch, which is ruinous to accuracy. I estimate that about 15 ft. lbs. of recoil energy represents upper limit of the average shooter's comfort level. Above that recoil becomes increasingly intrusive. The effects of recoil are cumulative. The longer you shoot, and the harder a rifle kicks, the more unpleasant shooting becomes and the more likely you are to jerk the trigger or flinch.

Taken "in segment" off Hawks website.I don't always agree with Chuckie but i happen to agree with this as long as it pretains to "the average guy"

I think we need to keep this "average guy" in mind. We are not average shooters on this, and similar, forums. The "average" hunter/shooter is not here. Most of my friends that hunt, and that is most of the men I know, have no idea and no interest about these sites. I would be willing to bet most of the guys here are better than average shots, and there are a relatively large number of us here that can shoot a magnum well.
You guys are better than average.

I happen to agree, occasionally when I am around the gun counter I hear conversations that make me shudder. However it seems to me that this discussion always degenerates into the magnumits argument where it's assumed that the miss was recoil induced, rather than poor shooting in general. I have helped find several elk for others over the years, who readily admitted to flinching. The solution suggest on the web always, seems to be use a smaller caliber with less kick, and that will magically solve the problem. It won't, a poor shooter is still a poor shooter no matter the caliber.
I have helped and attempted to recover far "more" game, shot with 6mms, and smaller than those wounded with Magnums. That's just my experience with over 60years in the woods. I know that guides deal with a lot more people than I , but that's my data base. The more energy you can deliver down range the better your chances of recovery no matter the hit. That does't suggest that I support poor shooting, its the opposite. I shoot several hundred rounds annually from both magnums and non magnums. Perfect shots are few, and not always possible. That's where the increased foot lbs on target, may get you a kill, rather than a lost animal

Perhaps a rifle that shows some honest wear is a better indicator of ability than the cartridge. A shiny new rifle that looks unfired might be cause for concern, although it won't always be true.

If that were true you wouldn't be hearing stories like dogzapper told about the guy and the .250 Savage, or guides almost unanimously perferring clients with non-magnum rifles.

I strongly believe a great deal of hunters are better shots with smaller rifles. They might not be the great shots with a small rifle, but they are still better shots than with a magnum.

Im chuckling over the gun counter chatter. I agree, Ive heard some bizzare requirements to kill critters. Usually it takes something bigger than a 300 win mag to get the job done.

When I was a kid, grizzlies were dieing from 30-06's, but you can't do that now a days......

Or an indication that he shops on Gunbroker.

The reason for my disclaimer.

I sure do, Pat. Those were the good old days. I also miss being able to buy a sheep tag every year, although I don't have horses now, and the mountains are getting higher and steeper, and...

I also remember the sheep hunt just the two of us did in the Hilgards back in '86



Thanks Brent. I was lucky enough years ago to find a 370 bull and a 340 bull that filled my freezers and the wall of my trophy room. Since then I've just concentrated on filling my freezer. I butcher all of my game animals myself, and I cook then grind the trimmings so my dogs have always been able to enjoy some of the game meat too.

Good points here Elkmen. While I believe the average hunter will do better with a "standard" round, it doesn't just happen because he is shooting a smaller round. As we all know, it takes knowledge and practice to become a good shot.
I maintain that the average hunter does not shoot well enough to realize the full potential of even the average factory rifle.
Good thing most big game is shoot relatively close.

What it comes down to is this: If you can shoot it, use it - if not, use something else.

A good hit is always better than a poor one.

I remember you always had Buffy along when we used to shoot trap out at Logan every wednesday night. You'd toss five empty shotgun shells on the floor of the clubhouse, and Buffy would gather them all up and bring them back to you.......not one at a time, all five at once!

Yeah she loved to retrieve shot shells. After I switched to shooting Skeet, she got better at retrieving shells. Her record was eight empty 12 ga hulls in one mouthful...thrown by Barbara Mandrell's kids at a shoot that she and her husband Ken shot with us.

My hat goes off to you, that's like the 3rd or 4th post that has made sense. As you know, I've kind of been stirring the pot about this whole magnum accuracy thing and I'll agree with you that most of us here are not "average". I was thinking about this today as I drove out to my elk hunting partners house. If we were average, we wouldn't be so damn worried about bedding, action screw torque, whether to freefloat or not, dialing in our handloads so they hit where we want them to and making sure they have minimal run-out. Most of us here arn't "average" shooters and I guess I took offense to what gravestone implied in his post. I've got buddies that don't shoot competition that are average and I know some guys that talk a big game and I've actually talked some of these guys into coming down and proving that their rifles CAN'T "cut the x-ring out of the target" like they've suggested. The others that are fun to watch are the ones that swear their sako trg's can shoot 1/2" groups at 300 yards. I've heard many bs statements and most of the time, can see right through them....I didn't want to whip out pictures of targets that I've shot with my "hunting" loads (regular ol Hornady btsp interlock bullets) but oh well, I've nothing to hide:

5 shot group with my hunting load in my 300 wsm (the M stands for magnum I believe):


10 shots:


Another 10 shots, 11 shots including the sighter (1 sighter at 1'Oclock) at 160 yards:


Now for my 338 win mag (and it's a ruger m77 of all things):
(3 shot group)


4 shot group:


But it doesn't matter how you shoot off the bench when an animal is out in front of you.......That's when I go on auto pilot and just let things happen......2 weeks ago on my cow elk hunt, I spotted a nice one moving thru the scrub oak at a trot and I took her at 88 measured yards. Nice easy shot, wait for the right moment and you know the rest of the story.......:

[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/1118120921.jpg[/img]

Targets don't mean chit if you can't put your rifle and skills to work out in the field.....I used my 9.3x62mm mauser on that cow 2 weeks ago and I guess it isn't a magnum (is it???). This is how she shoots:

[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/002-86.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/001-97.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/003-71.jpg[/img]

Just plain ol hunting bullets there, nothing more or less....

I wasn't implying it toward you or anyone eles in this thread.
There was a very simular thread on another site and i visit that site from time to time. The guy i was refering to has in the past made some post thats leads me to believe he's full of $hit. Thats what that comment was directed toward.
BSA and Buffy put their money where their mouth is and showed me that they can shoot the mags as well as "lighter recoiling" guns.
And i still say that these guys,in my experience are the exception not the rule.

Some fine targets there, bsa.

I once worked for a guy that questioned why I spent so much time at the range and "tweaking" loads. I told him that if I couldn't develop the most accurate loads possible with my rifles, how could I expect to quickly kill that monster whatever that suddenly appears on the on the next ridge?

Shooting off the bench shows you what your bullets and rifle are capable of shooting. You're on your own in the field, and the more trigger time that you have at the range, the better you're chances are when that trophy of a lifetime appears across the canyon or in thick timber that you have to thread your bullet to.

Thanks my friend. Great post too. Another thing that may get overlooked is how much field time a person may get on small game, rodents, birds, and even competition type atmospheres. Trigger time is mucho important and if you can do this while under stress, it will tremendously help when the time comes to pulling the trigger on a big game animal out in the field. I see you know what I'm talking about, judging by the pictures you posted and the fact that you have also hunted with Pat (scenar). I consider myself lucky because I grew up in the sticks (Northern Nevada) where there was nothing to do but chase jack rabbits, coyotes, deer and other vermin. After so much time chasing various species of game animals you will develop an almost instinctive ability to do what needs to be done: IE: put the game down as humanely as possible. Something else that comes to mind is some should start out with a single shot rifle so they learn to make that first shot count (regardless of the cartridge they use). I didn't start hunting elk until I moved to oregon about 20 years ago and have been hooked ever since. Good thread guys......

"Good thread guys......"
I'll second that.

My second was a spike at I would guess 300yds 22-250 55gr win. He was just right there with a behind the shoulder shot. Varment bullets can do wounders at longer ranges. 1980.Kawi

Ho and it was a threw and threw.

Lucky you, posing with two sweethearts.....grin!



My newest "tag along", Max, going on his first coyote hunt a few days ago..........I think he likes that old Sako!

Airdale Terier ?

Did you find Max locally?

Sure is....I've had at least one Airedale around ever since I was a kid.....pretty easy to like their character.

SLM, I got him from a retired government trapper in South Central Montana.

"That's a good looking hound, I love Max already. Looks like he's on a hardship hunt (crank windows...grin)"

It's called the exercise package at our house.

They are neat dogs. Been talking to a guy in Texas about his pups. Not many around here.

I love Airedales! I'm about ready for another.

I like teriers...we have a Carin,like any other terier they got alot of character.When i had to put Sandy down after 15 great years of companoinship i swore i wouldn't get another dog because i didn't want to go thru that pain again...that lasted 2 months then we got Toby.I'll never forget Sandy but Toby definately filled the void.
Good luck with Max!

Cairns are a hoot, have one now. Had an Airedale as a kid and thinking of getting another.

260, 140 SST, 2750 MV, 250ish yards. Little dude shot too far forward and absolutely smashed the onside scapula. "f'n faceplant" barely describes the reaction, auditory feedback indicated broken bones. Elk #3 in as many years for the 13 year old hunter... though the performance of the SST seemed quite frangible, and no exit was immediately evident, the elk was very much doornail dead.



Figured I'd fill a tit tag and the second half of the freezer for myself on the same hunt.

Brad's advice here made me deeply and very sincerely doubt the capabilities of the 260, along with the reality of the last dozen elk it's killed... so in lieu of actually seeing 140 grain pills suddenly bounce off for myself, I took the choad... 338 RCM, 225 NAB, 2600MV, 490 yards. Bang-flop wasn't in the cards, she ran about 30 yards... with a blood trail a guy could see with naked eyeballs across that 490 yards.



Actually just wanted to smack something with "The Choad" and the opportunity presented itself... and had my 260 along in case something went horribly wrong.

Looks adequate to me...

Matt what rifle is the 338RCM? I am fond of the feel of the Ruger wood stocked rifle but don't own one.

Stainless 20" Ruger slapped into a skeleton stock, 2.5-8 with turrets.

Ingram combo may have set the record for our house, took delivery Friday afternoon and had dismantled 3 elk by sundown Sunday...

Thanks! Down and done....nice!

No worries Bob.

So far the 260 has punched elk tickets with boring reliability and regularity with 140 SGKs, 140 NPT, 140 NAB, 140 SST. I can remember exactly ONE that took two shots... slight miscommunication and shot placement of first volley squarely into the guts would have required a finisher no matter the chambering or projectile. So far the Noslers exit on average, the others, not so much.

I was kinda hopin' for a longish shot to present itself, I had AMAXs loaded this time in addition to SSTs I wanted to use in the 260 on a broadside shot over there 'a bit'... however the azz deep snow woulda made prone a miserable position for sure. Guess I'll have to wait until the next episode, which, on average, ain't too far in the future for us...

Wait a minute Matt!! You're kill elk with a 260 with SGK's no less!! A puny little caliber like that and SGK's bounce of an elk!! LOL!!!

I got a "malware warning" when i clicked on that link (FWIW).

I just clicked on it Okie i didnt a warning. It's never been a problem when i've gone on that site.

Guess I shouldn't mention that I've seen a 12 year old rain man slay a tatonka with a .223 either... lest Brad have a f'n coronary.

Matt i'm actually looking at the 260 now but i'm still flip flopping between the 260 and 7mm08

That's a great pic!

Dober

Even though I'm azz deep in 260s, and lack anything sporting .284, I couldn't fathom a decent argument against either. I personally figure the jump from .264 to really only be worth it if it gets to .338. Call it the felt recoil vs. BC curve.

The only one fallin between .264 and .338 in the stash is a 30 PURELY for nostalgic and sentimental reasons. I'm gonna smack something special with it, tongue in cheek and tear in eye one day. Not quite ready for that day, and it may not be me that trips that trigger.

BTW, I've never even seen a 162 AMAX...

That [bleep] looks like he was shot off'n alfalfa pile, or "the back 40".

Can't say I've had a one like that.

What i dont get is why more manufactures dont chamber in 260.

Cause they sell more 270s and 3006s...

Thanks Mark, that was probably the last elk that Buffy shared with me, and also the last bull that I shot with my old .30 Gibbs.

Matt, I don't have an alfalfa pile or a back 40, so how about "the back 10."

I think I've shot 3 bulls and a cow (all elk) back there. What's that old saying about a "gift horse"? This year both of my freezers were still full so on two separate days I watched a 6x6 bull and 8 cows graze through the grass behind me in the pic.

Let me know when you want me to come out for sunrise coffee next November...

Dober

I have a mental image of a guy bustin' his shin on the coffee table whilst trying to get to the back door and put his slippers on to ready for the shot.

I'm green with envy... especially when it comes to gettin' 'em out

Neighbor did that this year getting his antelope, while it was in the corral taking advantage of the horses mineral.
He almost got his elk that way a couple years ago, but the buggers heard him open the window and take the screen out...

Well buffy when we gonna see a picture like that with Max?

Almost put a WT down a little while ago out the slider in our bedroom, but noticed it was "one horn", a young neighborhood buck who got his ass kicked sometime this season..

If it was a doe, it woulda caught some 00 buck.

I shot my biggest bull to date, a heavy 6x7, off my deck in the horse pasture behind the house... in my underwear. Had to be a good 75 yard shot.
I shot several from the house over the years, then I would take all the screens off the windows so when the coyotes came in to chew on the left-overs, I could just slide the .243 out and BOOM!

How'd he get into your underwear?

Those big bulls are very very sneaky...

Dober

Great picture, nice going on the elk, and I especially like your faithful bud.

Long story... but it takes some doing to get an elk into your underwear!

I was hunting with a fellow once who sat down on a hill and proceeded to kill a cow elk at about 280-300 yards. Took her just behind the rib cage on the right side and found the bullet in the shoulder on the left side. She ran about 80 yards and hit the snow. He was shooting a .243 with Partition bullets of a weight I don't recall.

Of course what we really need for elk is a 35mm Super Whiz Bang Tree Chopper Nitro Express Raptor Magnum...don't wanna go in undergunned.

.54 cal round ball works fine if you know how to get close.

but using that argument, so does a .22......

I'd never try it. Even if it was legal to use here.

I know the .54 ball works. Big hole, good expansion, and good energy if kept at a reasonable range.

With that said. I'm thinking about using a 425 gr all lead conical this year to be sure.

+1 They work very well and shoot a little flatter.

I ran the 425gr bullet, and a 225gr PRB through a ballistic calculator, and was shock at the difference at 100yds. Even when the PRB starts at 700fps more at the muzzle.

The round ball is fun to shoot, and it's nostalgic, but damn it loses energy fast. I respect elk too much to wound one.

The only negative with the 425gr conical is the recoil is a bit lively, but it only hurts for a little while.

Try the 460 grain no excuse bullet..Great bullets

I'd just as soon use an arrow over a round ball.

I would, but the twist in my gun is a little slow for that bullet. 400-425gr is just right. Hornady Great Plains bullet is my choice.

No Excuse it a great bullet, but my gun is .54, and the no excuse is over 500gr for it.

I use 370 gr Maxi-balls in my 50 cal Knight rifle and they seem to hold up and penetrate well on elk.

or a ball peen hammer.

We're talking "smallish bore" rifles here. Not .50's, not .54's, and damn sure not ballpean hammers. Now, if you wanna follow the rules and talk yer stuff about .36 (or smaller) cal bp rifles, then maybe we'll lissen......... Until then, take mouser and go start yer own thread.....grin

Well, we've established that you can kill an elk at 400 yards with a .22-250, so not much else to say, is there?

But, for all the guys who have to save up for an elk hunt, why go with anything less than a .30-06? Unless you have a physical problem anyone should be able to handle the recoil of an '06.

And, these modern bullets don't always perform miracles. I shot a kudu with a 225 grain TSX with my .35 Whelen and it didn't make it all the way thru. A kudu weighs a couple of hundred pounds less than an elk.

Name isn't mouser dipsheet. You must be a part of that group of azzholes with pea brains.

it's bean. I hate peas.....

So do I pea brain.

Guess I missed the part of life where killing an elk was a miracle...

Ive watched dozens of guys shoot elk, on many hunting trips,over the decades and many dozens more learn to shoot from field positions rather than only from a bench rest, at the range.
Its been rather a consistent thing to see most guys can,t hit crap from field positions at first, when they first start practice without a bench rest.
and while their choice in caliber used may have effected the results, Id bet 90% of the guys can,t keep a 2" group at 50 yards or a 4" 100 yard group with a 223rem when they first start out.
accuracy with a rifle from field positions takes extensive practice and most guys prefer to shoot tiny groups from a bench rest rather than actually practice from positions they are likely to actually use on an elk hunt.
what I do find is that when you teach them to properly use a sling and a 25"-27" folding bi-pod from a sitting position, groups tend to shrink to acceptable field accuracy much faster than shooting free hand without those accessories.
you don,t need to shoot 1" groups at 100 yards to kill elk, but you should be able to hit a soda can on the first shot with a bi-pod and sling on your elk rifle at 100-150 yards or hit one at 50-70 yards shooting off hand very easily with practice.
everyone has a recoil limit that will effect their accuracy, but most guys that can handle a 30/06 can also shoot reasonable groups with the 7mm and 300 mags once the sling and bi-pod are installed

Great observation, and I agree whole-heartedly.

+1^

Smallish bores on elk........... how does a 223 Rem sound?
Last Sat morning, my shooting buddy called and said that a client of his has two elk on her property (this is is Adelaide, South Australia) which had esscaped from neighbouring deer farms and were harassing her sheep and alpacas. She wanted then "gone". Now my mate and I thought they must be red deer not elk - but getting to the property, her observations were correct.
Now my pal in all his wisdom decided to bring his howa 223 shooting 55 grain Barnes TTSX reloads. The first animal we shot was the smaller of the two - but still a very large animal - one shot through the lungs and down it went.
The second much larger animal we bagged after a long stalk and my pal who was doing the shooting put FIVE shots into it before it dropped - at around 150- 200 metres. All shots were into the heart / lung area. This second animal was about 1 1/2 times the size of the first aminal but nevertheless, took a bit to get it down.
Yes, elk can be bagged with smaller calibres but I woudl rather prefer to shoot something like a 243 with 100 grain load or bigger just for the added edge.

Gus

Thanks for sharing sakoman, that really adds a great perspective on a very tired topic.

im finding it interesting that as the years go by that the bullets are made better and better, and yet the animals in the eyes of the masses get tougher and tougher to kill. the .375H&H and killed a lot of game in africa in all shapes and sizes, and now suddenly its not big enough? the .270 and the 30-06 have killed elk and bear and moose in this country for almost a 100yrs and yet now every time i hear a conversation about elk all i hear is, oh you gotta have at least a .338 win mag to kill elk..... ive seen elk go down to the .243, ive seen even more go down from the 25-06. if you pick a decent bullet made for hunting, and place your shot correctly elk will die from a 25-06 just like they have for ever after being hit with a 30-30win. my advice is train for the terrain, and train hard. the better shape you are during elk season the better. you will have an easier time making a good shot if you can breath. second thing is shoot your rifle a lot so you are totally confident in your ability, and yet know the limits of yourself as well as the rifle.

More good advice. It's interesting how much banter goes around about having just the right rifle, the bigger the better of course, when IME, the Vast Majority of hunters don't realize and can't capitalize on the full potential of the old standards.
When I was outfitting hunts I was asked all the time, do I need a magnum. My advice was, and is, not unless you are already shooting one, and can shoot it well. As pyro has indicated, the success of my hunters always had more to do with their physical condition, and their ability to shoot well. Nearly every elk we ever killed, many hundreds over an almost 30 year career, were within 200 yards or less. IMO, a magnum for elk is about extending your range, not some need for more killing power. If you can't shoot a 270/'06 to its' accuracy potential at 500 yards, you have no "need" for a magnum. You will gain nothing from it.

Guy, I have killed elk at 400 with a 100tsx in a slow 257roy....bang flop. In total I have killed 6 elk with the calibers you mentioned and a couple at ranges that will just start arguments. Here is a pic I took of two elk scapulas that had the miss fortune of catching a 142gr smk that was going about 1700ish fps.....bang flopped.

Elk can't go far with its lungs shredded by a good bullet.

Sherwood

My 16 yr old thinks he needs a .45 ACP pistol instead of his 9MM and a .338 WM instead of his 30-06. We were actually having that conversation today so I had him get his CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical and our Browning Buck Mark out. I placed two milk jugs at 25 yards and he shot 19 rounds from the CZ and I shot 11 rounds from the Buck Mark. He hit 8 of 19 and I hit 11 of 11. I then told him that probably 90 percent of the bullets I have fired in my 54 years were .22 longs even though I own seven centerfire rifles and six centerfire handguns. I saw the light finally go on in his head.
Started loading magazines for him and he shot 100 rounds out of the Buck Mark. The last 39 rounds in a row were all hits. I have never had the pleasure of going on an elk hunt but will do it with my son before I am 60. I will bring my 6.5x55 and my .270 as back-up. Maybe I am a wuss but I started feeling recoil more when I hit my mid forties. I personally believe that if you do a whole lot of shooting with rimfires it will make you a better shot with centerfires. And then if you do a lot of shooting with a 30-06 or smaller it will make you a better shot with magnums should you choose to step up. Not a scientific approach but it certainly worked for me and my friends whose first firearms were hand me down single shot bolt action .22s with iron sights.

This is one cool picture! Wonder what caliber the gun is.