I have my ideas but would like to hear yours.
I have seen fights start over this question in hunting camps but I feel the animal deserves a quick death.
Thanks for your replies

I watched my friend take three elk with a .270 Winchester before he upgraded to a .300 Winchester. He used a 150gr bullet and the farthest shot was 250m. All the elk died within 30 feet of being shot. I think this is the minimum I would use. If you can shoot it well and know your limitations it will do the job.

270 win and 150gr partitions is my minimum. I've killed numerous elk with 270, 30-06, 300 wsm and 300 win mag. They all worked.

.270 Winchester and 130 grain bullets.

This. I like Barnes TTSX or Nosler Partitions but if all I had was a green and yellow box the regular stuff I'd still have confidence in it.

Just shot an elk last week. Savage 7mm with Federal Premium 140gr Partitions at 260 yards. Double lung. Fell straight down.

I agree, but this thread is only a few hours old and the 6.5 Creed crowd hasn't gotten out of bed yet...

You've got it bad.

The 243 is the smallest round that I'd feel is ethical, but I'd only go that small if I had no other choice. A 140 gr 6.5mm bullet will do anything a 130-150 gr .270 will do. I have a 6.5 CM, but will be taking a 308 and 30-06 later this month. Both shoot the same bullets equally well. The 308 is lighter, the 30-06 150 fps faster. I'll flip a coin when I get there and decide which will be the primary rifle and which will be the backup.

Now that was funny.

It depends on conditions, age, species, and sex. For a pan-sized Rocky Mountain cow in open country a 6.5 Creed or 7-08 is probably fine. For a trophy Roosevelt's bull in thick timber, the low end is more like a 30-06 with a premium 180-grain bullet.


Okie John

Oh yes, so exciting. Another elk cartridge and rifle thread. Why don't we just call this the elk rifle room instead of elk hunting?

I've taken two bulls with a 25-06 and partitions. Know a couple of guys that took an elk with a 243. I'd think a Creedmoor or the like would be about the minimum I'd want to try.

I’m just all giddy and beside myself!!!!🤪🤪🤪🤪

There's a reason the legal beagles say 6mm minimum. I carry a 264 and don't feel under gunned at all. I have several rifles that are bigger, heavier, recoil more but don't feel the need to carry them. Each to their own.

i would say the old 25/35 i know a lot of old timer's used it, and i'm sure the 223 would work. that's the difference between hunting and shooting!

There are many smaller calibers which will kill an elk. Its all about bullet placement. However, if you've spent all the money and time to go elk hunting and the only shot you have is one that is not ideal because of angle or distance is why I won't elk hunt with anything less than one of the 30 cal magnums.
Phil

Who was it that said "shooting an elk is the easy part, finding it is the hard part?" Some redneck named Floyd R. Turbo IIRC.

One of my local friends, a former outfitter who is now semi-retired, has killed a pile of elk with a .22-250, using typical behind-the-shoulder rib shots.

The smallest "caliber" I've seen used on a mature 6-point was the .257 Weatherby Magnum, with Weatherby factory loads using 120-grain Nosler Partition. The bullet exited, and the bull went down quickly after running head-on into a Douglas fir, obviously dead on its feet.

I shot my first elk with a 243 win with 100 gr Winchester power points, it worked just fine. I wouldn't go elk hunting with a 243, but if I had one in my hand when a shot presented itself I wouldn't hesitate. I would make sure I had a good shot. A couple years ago I killed a cow with a 6.5 140gr partition out of a 256 Newton. The velocity was so close to what I get with the same bullet in my 6.5 CM that the difference in negligible. At the shot the elk ran about 50 yards and stopped where I hit her again. It worked great, but I remember thinking that the results of shooting elk with a 200gr 30 cal partition were a little more dramatic. Bottom line is put a good bullet in the heart/lungs and start looking for the easiest route back to the truck.

In Colorado it's a minimum of 24 Caliber.

The use of 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, 7.62mm, etc., on elk means a great deal less today as bullet technology has advanced the capabilities of all cartridges greatly.

I've killed elk with 243's to a 35 Whelen. I've witnessed elk killed with 243's to 458's. It's all in the bullet. A stout bullet like the Partition or the monos, and a few thick jacket bonded bullets are the trick--moderate expansion and deep penetration. The heaviest elk I ever killed, weighing in probably 750 lbs, was going dead away from me at 300 yds, I missed the bung hole and hit him in the ball and socket--the heaviest bone on an elk--and I found him about 50 yds away with the bullet stopped next to the sternum. A 270 with a 150gr Partition.

While most hunters today are convinced we have to sit on the hillside and glass with our high dollar optics, and all our long range stuff, by the first day or two of first rifle season most elk on public land have gone to ground and are holed up in "refuges"--thick timber, often on steep hillsides or canyons. Worked on a elk study near Meeker in 2000, and the telemetry collared elk we used had been collared for a previous study. That previous study tracked elk movements with emphasis on where they moved during archery through the last regular rifle season. They mostly ended up on private land or the hellhole breaks feeding into the Colorado River/I-70 corridor. Going after elk once they have gone to ground is up close and personal kind of hunting, and something besides the dedicated and increasingly popular idea of a "long range" rifle, like a general purpose rifle that can be handled quickly in the timber ( and the practice and mental preparation that needs to accompany that idea) and still be able to reach out 400 yds or so seems to be a better bet in the 55 years since I started following my dad elk hunting.

I've killed 6 elk with a 243 and 100gr Partition, none of them more than 75 yds away. One traveled 50 yds and I had to shoot him a second time, all others were dead within seconds and pretty much died within sight. My son has killed 5 elk with a 243 and Partiions from 100 yds to 375 yds. It's all in the bullet.

When I hunted the Vermajo in the late 80's, you could hunt with anything you wanted. However, if the elk you shot (at) ran off not to be recovered and you were using anything less than a 300 mag of some sort, that was your elk. However, if you were using a 300 mag or bigger, you got to keep hunting.
Phil

I'd be happiest starting with a .270 or 7mm-08. (I'd really rather shoot a .338 with 225s, but either of those with 150s is a solid start.)

I'm dead certain of killing elk with smaller cartridges but the time constraints of a short season might mean having to pass on the only shots presented in the legal time window.

If time was not a constraint, I'd be very happy with my .257 Roberts, and with truly no time constraints I'm sure I could arrange a reliable clean kill with a .223.

Tom

There are a lot of variables in determining a "Minimum Elk Cartridge." A well placed .22 LR bullet will kill an elk, but I would not consider it a suitable elk cartridge. Every hunter should know his/her own abilities as a hunter and shooter, and stay within his/her own limitations. The closest distance that I have killed an elk was many years ago when I shot a bull at 10 yards with a single arrow from my Herter's recurve bow on a DIY public land hunt. I believe I could have easily killed that bull with just about any centerfire rifle cartridge, or many centerfire pistol cartridges.

I have heard people say that you need a .375 H&H magnum to kill an elk. I know of one elk that was killed with a .22 LR. The answer for most hunters is somewhere in between those two cartridges. When I lived in Colorado I had a friend whose wife killed her elk every year with her .243 Win.

The smallest cartridge that I have used to kill an elk with was my .257 Ackley. It was a one shot DRT kill with a 117 grain Sierra GameKing bullet on a 330" net 6x6 bull.

I killed most of my elk with my .30 Gibbs shooting 180 grain Partitions. My favorite elk cartridge now is my .300 Weatherby shooting 168 or 180 grain Barnes TTSX bullets.

One prominent poster on this Forum that I know has killed a pile of elk with his .220 Swift.

One of my friends kills his bull almost every year with his .22-250. Here's the bull he shot last year with his .22-250

Of the six elk I shot with a 243, one of them was a broadside shot, everything else was angling. Last year my son and his 243 shot his elk heavily quartering away at around 100 yds, and the bullet hit way back, skinning the front of the rear quarter, and lodging in the point of the off shoulder.

A friend I haven't seen in 15 years had 13 sets of elk horns on his den wall when I moved away. They were all taken with a .243, in all kinds of conditions, at ranges up to 400 yards.

The only one he lost was due to a shot he told himself he would never take - poor visibility in rain, the elk moving slowly in heavy forest. But the bull so so close he decided he couldn't miss. The bull ran at the shot and he lost sight of it. Rain washed away any sign of blood, and with growing darkness he couldn't track it. Going back the next day, he couldn't find a sign of it.

It was a poor decision for anyone with any caliber rifle.

I would agree. Over the years I have used 338 Win Mag (250 gr), 444 Marlin (280 gr) and 308 Win (165 gr.). The elk hit with the 338 Win Mag and 444 Marlin showed an extreme reaction of numbed and flattened whereas the 308 Win, while effective was not as impressive. But you come to expect that when using a fast medium bore or large bore cartridge. On elk I somewhat associate the use of folks wanting a small bore cartridge vs. a larger bore cartridge to a fisherman utilizing 6 lbs test line for a 30 lbs fish rather than a 25 lbs test line for the 30 lbs fish. They both work, however statistically one has more probability for success than the other when stressed under field conditions and use.

I've taken elk with every thing from a .338 mag down to the 6.5. They all worked. It's about a "TOUGH DEEP PENETRATING BULLET PROPERLY PLACED."... My bullet of choice has been the Barnes TSX. Never failed me. Any of the copper mono's , with any reasonable cal.. My hunting buddy & his son use the 270 with the Barnes 130gr TSX. Complete pass thru.

The million dollar question is whether a bigger diameter would have made the difference in recovering the elk?

I have seen/taken elk with 243 to 375. My preference is 338 with 200-210gr bullets, but I would not hesitate to use my 22-250 with 53gr TSX on elk.

My 80 yr old Dad took an elk last week with his well worn Remington 760 in 270 with 150gr Nosler Partitions. A good friend will be using his 300 WSM with 150gr Nosler Ballistic Silvertips on his elk starting the 15th.

6.5x55 with a 140 Partition or Accubond. Possibly a 130 TSX.

7mm-08 puts elk in the freezer for me.




P

Idaho allows you to use ANY centerfire on ANY big game. You can use a 22 Hornet if you want to. That's not saying you should, just that it's legal.

Wonder what Elmer Keith might say regarding bullet weight?
Phil

I hope a 7x57 Mauser with a 150 Partition qualifies cause that is what my wife will be toting in 2 weeks in New Mexico.

Flip the question.

Let the OP figure it out for himself.


What's the biggest elk cartridge you can use well?

Consider the recoil/rifle weight equation, and be brutally honest with yourself.

Use a good bullet that matches the favored cartridge.

Don't cheat yourself or the elk by just getting by, have too much gun.
You will never say,
Damn, if I just had a little less....things would have turned out better.

There are many things I ponder related to elk hunting, but not one of them involves what Elmer Keith thinks.

Plenty good enough.

Another vote for the .243.

As a hunting partner and guide, I have seen just that situation many times when the shooter was subconsciously afraid of his gun and made a less-than-perfect shot as a result.

What Jordan said.

Have guided some for elk myself, both bow and rifle. Placement and penetration counts a LOT more than "power," however power is defined.
Though have often found hunters rate a cartridge's power by how much it hurts them.

Take a big enough and flat enough shooting cartridge, that will match the longest shot possible where you will be hunting, and allow you to make a clean kill.

Tha factory ammunition nowadays are like the garanimal clothes marketed for kids.

There will be pictures of animals on the boxes of cartridges.

Buy the box of ammo with a picture Cervus canadensis on it.............money.

Generally you would like in cup and core bullets a sectional density of about .25 or greater. Sectional density is a predictive value of penetration.

You would also look for 2 foot pounds of energy at point of impact. Cup and core bullets use both hemorrhage and " Shock" to harvest.
So a 700 pound Cervus canadensis would require 1400 foot pounds at point of impact.

Bore would most likely be .25 or greater. Just a guess. I am sure a .243 will suffice.

Monolithic bullets require less sectional density perhaps as low as .200 They penetrate more due to keeping their original mass during the path through the animal.

Less foot pounds of energy also is suggested for the monolithic.. Because they maintain mass, they do not loose energy as easily, and depend on hemmorage more than " shock." To harvest.

But velocity to allow the monolithic to " open up" is most likely desired. Opening up makes a petaled almost arrow like broad head projectile moving through the animal. At or around a minimum 1800 fps at point of impact is what most monolithic bullets are published as needing to work to my knowledge.

I also believe monolithic bullet guidelines suggest a .25 caliber or greater also. ( But just a guess)

Certainly these guidelines like any law is meant 2 b broken.

Certainly shot placement trumps speed or power.

I'm confident that anything I own from the .257 Roberts on up would be sufficient with the right bullet, range, situation, etc. If I had unlimited time to hunt and weeks of opportunity to get the right shot, I'd probably use my .257 Roberts or 6.5 Somethingorother that I don't own or my .308 Win. Since that is not the case and often times my one and only elk opportunity happens at a fleeting moment with a poor angle, in the wind, at a longer range, or near a property boundary; I'm likely to use my 7mm Weatherby or .300 Weatherby, both of which I shoot well with confidence. I'll never have to second guess myself as to whether I brought enough gun. That said, poor marksmanship is seldom overcome with a bigger rifle. Happy Trails

My wife’s first elk (1974), was with a .243 Win. Her thoughts were .....more luck than skill. The next year she graduated to to a .270 Win., which she used until 1995. She then got her “Masters Degree”, by moving up to a .338 WM. She has “zero” desire to “go back in time”! memtb

Very true! memtb

The pictures are there to help guide the potential hunter....however, I personally know some people that apparently are still confused even with pictures. Maybe “grail” is the logical next step for the ammo manufactures! memtb

My .340 Wby ammo came in a box with a picture of a giant 25-foot-long presumably-prehistoric armadillo battling an almost equally-sized mutant opossum next to a lagoon with several purple dolphins watching the action. I wasn’t sure what to make of that.

As a guide and hunter, I have also seen plenty of flinching with a 243 and 22-250. The real test is to have them check their rifle before hunting, then hand it to them with an empty chamber and watch what happens...

Good point! Maybe pictures are “not” the answer for suggested game!

Maybe it was the “color” images that add to the confusion! memtb

How does the probability of a hunter being scared of his 270 Win. compare to the probability of a hunter being scared of his 300 or 338 Win. magnum?

Quit bringing logic to the conversation... all that's needed here is raw emotion and non-empirical biases.

Shrapnel, that’s a great training procedure for folks having “flinch issues”! Reduced my son’s ( he was about 14 at the time), by about 50%....in one shot (actually “no” shot). I told him he was “flinching”, which he “adamantly” denied. The major flinch on an empty chamber, was extremely embarrassing and enlightening, to a young man. memtb

I totally agree with shrapnel!

I had a friend tell me that on the range they would put a coin on top of the action.

A friend would hand him a cartridge, sometimes it would be a dummy round. If the coin fell off the rifle after he pulled the trigger and the gun would not fire, it would be a good sign of a unsmooth trigger event.

As a sarcastic side note......I often live in fear of the wife.

But to fear a firearm? They ain't gonna take half!

Like Cramer says on Mad Money. Sell, sell,sell!

I know a few fellows who use the .243, 6mm Remington and .240W all the time. Some have taken huge bulls. I'm of the 6.5/284, 6.5/06, .270 ( I put a properly loaded 7x57 in this class too) crowd with good bullets for minimum. I much prefer my 338 WM. I have used the Barnes 185XLC with perfect results. I like the 210xbt in 340W and would use the 270 TSX in the old 375 H&H today. ( I used the Sierra 300 sbt on a cow elk, it was very destructive. Shot a lot of game in South Africa with the old 270 FailSafe with perfect results.)

I've shot far less elk than some here, mostly because drawing tag here in AZ literally take an act of God. Finally said to hell with it and do a cow elk cull hunt on a ranch in New Mexico. I've taken one elk with a .300 Win. mag, one with a 30-06 and six with a .35 Whelen. I'd probably try my 7x57 given a reasonably decent shot but on the ranch, draw blood and it's yours, win or lose. So usually I take the 06 as back up and use the .35 Whelen. I prefer to hunt cow elk.Mostly because they taste better and second, there's no place in my home with a high enough ceiling to hang the head of a decent bull elk.
Paul B.

I've taken nothing but cows PJ! I really like the late season hunts on private ranchs....much less people and snow everywhere!

Don't skip the part that says, "consider recoil/rifle weight.....be brutally honest with yourself".


My 300 Win. isn't very heavy. It is the top of my recoil tolerance, probably too much.

If I didn't mind weight/recoil, a big 338 would be my "The one."

But, I know my limitations.


It just does not make sense to intentionally ever choose the tool that is taxed for the job.
I will always want more truck than I need, buy a heavier duty hand tool......reserve ability is never bad.

The same applies to recoil. It just does not make sense to intentionally choose the tool that taxes your ability to use it to maximum affect, in other words a gun that kicks too much to consistently make proper hits.

Just like I don't use a 32 ounce framing hammer and prematurely wear myself out, I don't use a rifle that kicks too hard to shoot well.

Or practice well, which may be just as important.

Kind of my thinking also.

As far as recoil tolerance, I found shotguns to be great "shoulder tougheners".

When I had time to shoot shotguns a lot, I never noticed that 300, or anything else I shot.

1oz 12g loads don't kick much in a clays gun. But a hundred or 2 at a time tend to toughen you up.

Understatement in metal form - 7x57 Mauser.

Way back when I was a kid, I killed 5 with a .308 and 180 grain CoreLokts -- no problem. I've killed one with a .270 and 130 grain Partitions -- no problem. I've killed a half dozen or so with a 7 Rem Mag and 160 grain Partitions -- some needed additional rounds to get them to fall over.

I believe my 7mm-08 with 140 grain Partitions will do just fine.

Saw my Nephew kill a nice Bull with a .243 and generic 100 grain bullets -- it took several hits to do the job.

get the rifle you can handle not everyone can handle a big cartridge rifle, some may like a smaller cartridge because of recoil ? distance can be a factor too you might need a more powerful rifle ?,bull`s many times die harder than cows do, I have seen bulls take a pounding sometimes. many caliber/cartridges are all great just get the type of rifle and what cartridge you like . good luck be safe ,Pete53

I think the best way to not be sensitive to recoil is to shoot more. I used to shoot often (very often) and I loved my 338. In fact I wondered why anyone would be bothered by that amount of recoil. The last few years I shoot very little and a few days ago I found myself flinching when shooting my 338-08. I think I really need too get back not only become used to recoil again but also to improve my accuracy. I can tell I'm not nearly as good as I used to be.

Have used a .44 Mag in a Ruger Super Redhawk, no shots.
Also .44 Mag in a Browning B92 carbine. Had an opportunity at 100 yards but passed because we already had one down that needed attention.

My .257 Robert has been used several times with 120g AFrames, no shots taken.

Would not hesitate to use my .243 Win, knowing I'd pass on shots I'd be happy to take with other rifles.

Eastern tenderfoot and Texas elk experts? SMH

That's a fair question. It is also not a simple question. First, it's personal and varies a lot. Second, shooting position is very important to the answer even for a single person. Lay prone and shoot uphill vs shooting seated vs shooting standing up at something downhill. Big difference in what will scope cut you vs what won't. So what's realistic where you hunt? A classic "elk country" high elevation meadow in the Rockies might be pretty different than the coastal jungle of Oregon or Washington where visibility might be in feet (but might also be over a mile).

For me .. I can use a lot of different things but I'll adapt how I use them to their limitations.

Tom

This is just one perspective, but if you already had two rifles in position to shoot at a big bull; could shoot both rifles well (big ifs, I know, but it’s true for some people/circumstances); and could squeeze the trigger on either one, would you prefer the rifle launching the left bullet or the right bullet at the bull? Both hit their previous victims right at about 3,000 fps. The one on the right went through about two feet of deer before stopping. The left one went through abut 3-1/2 feet of moose before stopping.




Just food for thought. Not saying the one on the right won’t work with the right shot placement.

Were they both found under the hide on the far side?

Exactly. So, I get that the smaller one would have gone further if the distance to the far hide was longer. Both went through various degrees of bone. I fully understand that the right bullet qualitatively is not as tough. It was a cup-and-core, where the left one was monolithic. I'm not suggesting it's an apples-apples comparison. Just a visual comparison of the size difference of expanded .243 vs. .338. 95gr vs. 225gr.

MarineHawk, I like the way you think! A strategically placed “knitting needle” will kill effectively, but there is little room for error! memtb

You should tell my wife that. After 15 years, I am starting to get suspicious that she does not agree.

.45-110-550

It’s the Mars/Venus thing! memtb

A reasonably accurate quote of Elmer Keith, when asked his opinion of the perfect cartridge.....his response, “ Something that would throw a campstove at about 3,000 fps!” memtb

Dillonbuck and Tracks,

Yeah, quite a few shooters think that shooting harder-kicking guns more is the way to "toughen shoulders," or get over the fear or recoil.

But the vast preponderance of evidence is that shooting harder-kicking guns a LOT has exactly the opposite effect on most humans., especially over time. This is exactly why so many hard-core competitive shotgunners eventually switch to release triggers, and why so many competitive rifle shooters switch to lighter-kicking cartridges. A good example is famous High Power legend David Tubb, who progressed "downhill" in cartridges from the .308 to the 6XC (even lighter recoiling than the .243) over the years.

This has nothing to do with being many, or toughening shoulders. Instead it has to do with the part of the brain that subconsciously creates a flinch if a human subjects themselves to recoil hundreds of thousands of time. Physical damage can also results, not just to shoulders but to brains.

And eyes.

Rather than some minimal benchmark, I think in terms of your personal maximum recoil tolerance. Foot pounds of energy isn't as important than putting a good bullet in the right place. I know my personal recoil tolerance has decreased markedly in the past year. I've made the decision not to fight it and develop bad shooting "skills". For some their maximum could be a 300 WM, for others, a .270 Win.. Accept it and adapt accordingly.

Or skip the cartridge altogether and focus on the bullet.

Mercifully, I have very little brain to damage.

bigwhoop,

Recoil tolerance tends to decrease with age, as our bodies become less flexible, and not just the joints.

However, this can be compensated for in more than one way. As smokepole suggested, focusing on the bullet rather than the cartridge case helps a lot. That said, there's often resistance to "downsizing" among big game hunters, because so many ideas about cartridge "adequacy" were formed back when cup-and-core bullets were almost universal.

My experience as both the shooter and the guide is that full penetration is more important than raw power. If all wounds are 100% deep (that means they exit) the only thing left to adjust is the diameter of those wounds. As the cartridge gets smaller the importance of super good bullets becomes even more critical.
My daughter and grand sons have killed a hand full of elk with 257 Roberts and they have never lost one, and none have stayed up after the shot for more then about 10 seconds. But all were killed with Nosler Partition or Barnes X bullets. So in my near 1/2 century of hunting elk and guiding elk hunters, I would have to say the 257 Roberts is "my minimum". But I also have a friend who killed 9 elk with a 243. All were brought to bag, but some he shot 2-3 times. So I have little to say about the 243 as an elk rifles because I have never seen one used, but I do know some who have used it successfully. My friend Rich did later go to a 257 Weatherby Mag, and later still to a 270 Weatherby mag. So he thinks of the 243 as antiquate, but the larger and more powerful guns as "better".

I have personally killed them with 270 Winchester and 270 Short mag, but also with 44 magnum from handguns. The 44 magnum doesn't look all that great from it's calculated ballistics compared to most rifles used for elk, yet one got away, none went far, and none ever took 2 shots.

I also killed one with a wood arrow shot from a Bamboo Bow. Worked fine.

So I fall back on my 1st statement that penetration is the thing to look for more then raw power.
I do acknowledge that sometimes we see poor performance from small rounds. However we also see it from big ones too. In all my years I have had more long tracking jobs with elk shot with 7MM Mags and 300 Mages then any other calibers, but in nearly all cases, those were shot with bullets that blew up, or simply not hit as precisely as they should have been.

2 nights ago I saw a large White Tail Deer killed with a 9.3X57 firing a 250 grain Accubond. The hit was center of the chest up and down, and about 2" behind the leg bone and the exit was as big as an egg dead center on the off side of the chest. Yet the deer went over 200 yards and had to be be tracked down by a long blood trail. That cartridge is then the same ball-park as a 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen, firing the 250 grain bullet at 2350 FPS (Loaded and chronographed by me personally) but the deer didn't drop very fast. It was amazing, and I seldom see such resilience. But it didn't prove to me that a 9.3X57 Mauser is not powerful enough for deer. The diameter of the wound was very good, and the perpetration was 100%, yet the deer ran off a good distance through thick brush and it took some time to find and bring back. Just "one of those thing" I guess. Weird.

But in thinking about "minimums" such a result might be "proof" to some that the cartridge was inadequate. If that had been a 223 or a 243 LOTS of men would say it was proof. But it was not an "under-powered" shell. This was very much like a 358 Winchester with a very hot load.

Explanation?
I have none.

So I look at the "track records" of shells and bullets.

I am sure having an odd animal now and then that just doesn't seem to die as they should will happen, but overall we have to look at the high averages. In my 50 years of hunting, I say the high average for reliability comes from a bullet that gives a good size hole (of at least 1" in diameter" and always goes through to the other side, and most times leaves an exit.

All the rest is simply tripe to argue over.
Cartridges do not kill.
Bullets do not kill.
Guns do not kill.

Bullet holes kill! All the other goodies are just tools to make those holes.

Exactly!

Much easier on the body and wallet to shoot fifty or a hundred rounds in a practice session with something like a 6.5 Creedmoor compared to a typical 30+ caliber magnum.

I'm sure the above is correct and I have moved down in power, but not because of recoil, I've just found for me, the perfect cartridge.
I just need to practice more, to get the correct mindset and focus on the target. The rifle isn't going too hurt me, no need to toughen up.

Must be happening to me, as my 7 lbs Ruger #1 Tropical in 45/70 is starting to rattle me. Probably has something to do with a 325gr FTX travelling 2000fps....

I know I don't need that much speed, but what does "need" have to do with anything??

As to recoil, I have preached this before, but here it goes again: Wear a good shoulder pad at the range—Past, Cabela’s, etc … When I started doing that, my days at the range became much more comfortable with my .375 Wby and .340 Wby. It doesn’t just protect the shoulder; it takes most of the snap out of the recoil, which affects the neck, head, etc … too. My dad shot my .300 WM back in the 80s, when he was in his forties, and he hated it. Over twenty years later, when he was seventy, and we were planning a hunt, I talked him into shooting it again, but gave him a shoulder pad. He shot 1/2” groups with it and said that he was amazed by the difference. My elk hunting buddy for this year and I went to the range a couple of weeks ago with his 7mm RM. I lent him my pad, and after shooting it extremely well, he said: “Wow, that makes a BIG difference.” My boys say the same thing. Just my anecdotal experiences, but I have never seen anyone use one with a decent boomer who said that it didn’t make much of a difference. Use one at the range and be comfortable, and in the field a couple rounds at game won’t both you. No matter how much I shoot my .375 Wby or .340 Wby at the range, I can’t get even the slightest bruising of the shoulder when wearing a pad. It makes the recoil more of a push than a snap. And with no prospect of something even bruising me, I just calmly squeeze the trigger thinking “No big deal.” YMMV.

Same here.....we use the PAST, when shooting from the bench. And, a volley ball elbow pad.....stops the bench top “rug burn”! memtb

OMG, no kidding on the rug burn. The first range session I had at the range I have switched to, which has a rough surface on the tables, I had blood pouring out of my right elbow like it had been hit by a .50 cal. My younger son, who was with me and also shooting his 243 Win asked me: "Daddy are you okay"? Since then, I bring an old cotton t-shirt to rest my right elbow on. No problem since then.

I used a soft, worn, Terry cloth towel, for years. Still got a burn, with enough rounds fired. Now, I’ve added the elbow pad....big improvement! No burns, and additional padding! Try it....you’ll like it! memtb

True that. I killed a decent bull on opening day this year with a .270/130. I believe Ol' Elmer considered that to be a decent coyote cartridge.

But Ol' Elmer was entertaining to read. And he did know quite a bit about old buffalo rifles and cartridges.

I've had a PAST pad in my range bag for many years, since I constantly have to range-test a wide variety of rifles. Generally use it on rifles from .300 magnum up, including various .338 and .375 caliber magnums, along with really big rifles from .40 up, such as my .416 Rigby.

Have also killed elk with not only the .300 Winchester Magnum, but the .300 WSM and .300 Weatherby. But have killed at least as many with the .30-06 as all .300 magnums put together, and have never found any noticeable difference in "killing power." Could also say that about various calibers smaller than .30.

As pointed out in the chapter on recoil in my latest book, GUN GACK II, have always found it interesting that some hunters apparently believe felt recoil is a measure of a rifle's "killing power." But increased recoil doesn't necessarily translate to how hard a bullet hits game. The example used in the book compares the .30-06 with a 180-grain bullet at 2700 fps, using 55 grains of powder, compared to a .300 magnum with a 180 at 3000 fps, with 75 grains of powder. In an 8-pound rifle, the recoil energy of of the .300 is 37 foot-pounds, 68% more than the 22 foot-pounds of the .30-06 load in an 8-pound rifle--but the muzzle energy of the .300 bullet is only 23% higher.

Off topic but after reading this entire thread I can tell who is +/- 60ish with 40-50 years of shooting under their belt and who is +/- 40 or less and haven't "got it" yet even if they think they do. LOL

I'm 61 for the record.

Carry on.....

57+

Last elk I saw taken with the .30-06 was a mature but not huge 6x6, killed by a friend from "back East," on his very first elk hunt. He brought a light rifle with a 20" barrel, and used Federal factory loads with 180 Partitions, so muzzle velocity probably wasn't even 2700. The range was 365 lasered yards, and the bullet landed in the crease behind the left shoulder, a third of the way up the body. The bull ran less than 50 yards before keeling over.

Betting you missed the mark is some cases.
I've been shooting longer than you've been alive

Wow. We ARE a bunch of old dubs. No offense intended Mule Deer. Just turned 56 myself.

This is what makes me question all the discussion about 30-06 vs. 308 Win (other than amusement), in the field there is absolutely no difference in the two on game. However in my experience the .33 bore with 250 gr. loads shows a noticeable difference on heavy game over the .30 or other smaller bores. Is the recoil worth it, that is up to the individual and the game being pursued.

K

Not sure exactly where.....caliber choice, years of shooting experience, years of hunting experience, caliber selection, etc. should have me placed!

I’m 2 months away from 66...... hunting since age 5 or so, big game hunting since age 10, handloading centerfires since age 15, shooting the same caliber rifle since age 31, shooting/hunting with the rifle since age 38! 58+ years shooting experience! memtb

Probably have but I had you pegged right. lol

I'd like to believe the 243 is an acceptable minimum for Elk but I don't know having never hunted them. I have killed several Moose and I wouldn't be afraid to shoot one of them with a 243.

I know a guy that's killed wayy lots of elk with the 6mm Remington and cup-n-core bullets. Heart shot - they drop. Weren't long range nor guided affairs. No rodeos. He taught me you don't need a big cannon, you know, like the 270. Only an ass shot presented, you pass. Heart shots.... 243 minimum for me although I know the 22-250 can get it done. 6.5CM to 7mmRM are all good.

When I was a kid most of the ranchers I knew used 30-30 and 300 savage lever guns. Those guys killed elk every year. They hunted close and passed on marginal shots.

I hang here to feel youthful. 49

MtnBoomer, you're definitely a young'un. I'm going on 51. I was walking around, breaking lamps and my mom's vases while you were still in swaddling clothes.

Muledeer (john ) said:
Have also killed elk with not only the .300 Winchester Magnum, but the .300 WSM and .300 Weatherby. But have killed at least as many with the .30-06 as all .300 magnums put together, and have never found any noticeable difference in "killing power." Could also say that about various calibers smaller than .30.

As pointed out in the chapter on recoil in my latest book, GUN GACK II, have always found it interesting that some hunters apparently believe felt recoil is a measure of a rifle's "killing power." But increased recoil doesn't necessarily translate to how hard a bullet hits game.

My experience is the same.
I have been hunting deer for about 54 years now and elk for 45 years, and I have killed more game than I can count. I have seen 3-5 times more killed then I have killed myself because of my time as a guide in various states and at sundry times.
I am a bit of a big-rifle fan. I like them.

But about 20 years ago I was forced by actual experience to conclude that most of the tripe we read about ballistic energy, and how X is better then Y is all wrong when it comes to how well these cartridges kill.

I still have several bigger rifles and I like them all, but the honest truth from about 50 years of killing deer elk antelope bear and farm/ranch stock is that there is NO difference in the effect or speed of the kill from a good bullet fired from a 270 Winchester through the vitals, or a 338 Win Mag firing a good bullet through the vitals. And I do mean NONE at all.
I have used a very long list of cartridges on game and some of them have been used with long lists of different bullets too.

I wanted to justify my big rifles to myself for about 20-25 years, and like so many others I would re-think the energy, bullet weights, trajectories, wind drift and all the things that delight rifle fans everywhere.
But the naked truth is that I have seen more fast -to-instant drops on elk from the 270 Winchester and the 30-06 then most other cartridges, and far more often then some of the super magnums.

I do not dispute that a 338 Ultra-Stupendous-Magnum is more powerful. It is more powerful! What I can say factually is that in every case I have seen, it has not mattered.

Kills with the 308,30-06 and 270 Winchesters have been every bit as fast as I have seen (and used) from my 300 magnums, my 7MM mags or my 338 Win Mag. (This assumes the use of a good bullet that holds together in all kills to be compared one to another)

The ONLY round I have killed elk with that seems to hit them harder, to a point I can see a faster kill, is my 375H&H, and to be honest, I have to say it drops elk instantly most times and when it doesn't they drop maybe 1-2 seconds faster then similar hits with the 270. That's all. Of all the elk I have killed with 270s I can remember only about 6-7 that also didn't drop instantly. I absolutely love my old 375 H&H Mauser but I cannot say to anyone it's "better" for elk then a 270, 308 or 30-06. It really isn't.

I like it more.
I like my big rifles. And there is nothign wrong with any of them.
But I use them because they work well,and because I LIKE them, .............not because they are better killers.

It's all about shot placement and if the animal is not all charged up. Ive seen them shot 3x with 3006 in the chest 4" group and just stand there looking at you and then run 20 yrds and drop. A friend of mine uses a 30-30 in Washington State 75yrd shots max, no problem. My dad always used a 270 Win, 130gr Nosler Partitions always dropped them. I like the bigger caliber bullets like 338 all the way to 375. There is a measureable difference, seems to knock them off their feet. Barnes bullets in 375 cal 210 or 235 tsx are amazing as with 338 in that bullet size. Sometimes you can't get a perfect broadside shot, marginal shot is all you got. That's where the big boys come in handy.

I hear this: "there's no place in my home with a high enough ceiling to hang the head of a decent bull elk."

I was fortunate enough to bag a 7x8 bull (green scored 303) on a 2009 archery hunt. My buddies talked me into getting a shoulder mount and I did. Being a dumb ass I didn't even think about the fact that there is no place in my double wide mobile to hang it!!! It is now on semi-permanent loan to a friend with high ceilings.

What is the measurable difference?

Jordan Smith: I agree, as you are pointing out, no measurable difference, at least in my limited experience. Many years ago I shot my first elk. .270 WCF, shot the elk through both lungs and it stood there for a while, long enough for me to shoot it again through the lungs. Didn’t drop like all the deer I had shot before. So, I got myself a .375 Holland & Holland Ruger no. 1. Next season I shot another elk right through both lungs and it stood there looking at me while I reloaded the No. 1 and shot it again through the lungs. I wasn’t very quick at reloading a No. 1 back then. Conclusion from my sample of two: no measurable difference between a .270/130 and a .375/270.

I have shot elk with the .270 and the .375 H & H.. Both cows both well hit through the lungs.. With the .270 she ran about 200 yards across the prairie, the one with the 375 took a 260 gr low in the chest she just staggered and fell...

I love the look of a European mount regardless of space available.

I like big bullets on big critters...its just a whole lot of fun for me!" I just "feel better" with a round that can shoot 'through" an elk on hard angles. Not needed most of the time, but "I feel better"...and confidence is a big part of success. I'm sure I can kill every elk in the mountains with a 30-30 in decent range.

Nothing wrong with that!

Exactly! memtb

I don’t think you should have a minimum or some super duper ultra mag or elephant gun.
Just something that’s adequate and you can shoot well.
For ‘ME’ it’s the old 06.
I may not have 40 years of hunting or 20+ elk. But I have enough elk and shooting time and enough different shots to know what counts.

That’s a bit pretentious: You should not shoot the calibers that I decree should not be shot.

You might consider phrasing that differently: “I should …”; “I will not …”

So, I should not (or is it shall not?) hunt elk with my .340 Wby, which has worked perfectly on much larger game and which I carry well and which regularly shoots 1/8” to 1/4” groups at 100 yds?

I didn’t know that. Thanks for the decree. Dang, and I’m about 24 hours from leaving for my hunt.

I assume you must know something I don’t about the future. Unlike in the past, where I carry that rifle well; it shoots better than anything else I ever have shot (with almost NASA-like precision); and knocks down anything in its path, I assume you have some knowledge that, the next time I hunt with it, the 225gr bullet going at 3,140 fps will make a 90-degree left turn after leaving the muzzle and then immediately magically transform into whipped butter after doing so.

If so, thanks for the helpful warning and instructions. If not, I think I “should have,” rather than not “should have,” that rifle even if you mockingly disparage it as “some super duper ultra mag.”

Not saying whatever you use doesn't work well. And you "should have" that. I also "should have" my .340 Wby. It's freakin' awesome.

MarineHawk, I don't think anyone is telling you that you shouldn't use your .340. No doubt it'll hammer an elk and it sounds like it's the rifle you have the most confidence in so that's ideal.

The OP asked for opinions on minimum elk cartridges, and people are giving them. I haven't read the whole thread and I know it's been said but out of all the stuff that makes elk hunters successfuly, the cartridge they choose is waaaaay down on the list.

Thanks Smokepole. The OP asked about minimums.

I constantly read whimsical stories on here about how PHs in Africa or guides or hunting partners in Alaska or Idaho or wherever have cartoonish stories about monstrously-idiotic hunters who show up with anything more-energetic than a .308 (that's what I generally use for deer) and all the unpreparedness and foolish acts that these people engage in, or fail to engage in, both before, during, and after, the hunt. But guys with a .270 or 30-06 (just by the mere fact that they shoot such a thing) are way more mature; calm; intelligent; strategic; and cool under pressure.

I think it's BS.

I think there's really good hunters/shooters with small cartridges; with medium cartridges; and with larger cartridges. And I think there likely are a fair number of bad ones with all three as well.

I don't think it's cartridge-dependent.

Damn! You are getting old.lol.

I have always enjoyed whacking elk with 160 Partitions from my 7 mags, but that being said, I have seen them killed just as efficiently with .308 and 30-06. The one thing that goes into the equation, when talking about smaller calibers, is that it is much easier to spend lots of rounds practicing with them. I would not hunt elk with my 6.5s, but not because I would feel under-gunned. I am not going to hunt elk with them, as long as I still have my 7 mags, but I am enjoying my magnums less and less on the range.

The more that I shoot my .260 and Creed, the more I like what I see. They seem to kill things way better than what the ballistics indicate. As was stated before, it is all about the bullet and the shot.

Getting......have gotten! memtb

I would shoot one with a 25-06 and a 100gr partition or TTSX without fretting it much. Not sure I would want to go down more than that.

Marine hawk, did you get triggered?
I'm glad you like your 340 bee and if you can shoot it as good as your 308, more power to you.
BTW, is the 340 your minimum for elk? LOL

Is a .45 at 3-5 / 8" COL with a 520 grain bullet too big of a magnum or elephant gun for Elk?

ha!
Let me try this again....this is just MY opinion.
I think 243 is little light but also feel you don't need 416 for elk.
While I do have 9.3 x62 for elk and bigger. I prefer the 06.
I've also seen guys miss a broad side shots with 300 Rums...after they stepped up from the old faithful 06.
So I feel like you should shoot something that you can shoot well and accurate.
And if you cant shoot a 270 win. well, then you should not be in the field or try a different rifle than you can shoot well.

Yes. I need to go to a safe place where there are no anti-big-gun people.

So my .45 is too big of a caliber, being it's larger than a 416?

Lol, At least you’re honest snow flake.
Joking.
Not anti big gun, I just realized elk aren’t bullet proof.
To each his own.
Good luck on your up coming hunt

Is your 45 more powerful than the 416 rigby? You picking up what I’m puttingdown?
We can stir the pot all night long.

Personal minimum is moot cause i'll never use it on elk, 270 Winchester and 150 gr partitions at 2925 fps.

Topic is caliber, not power. Keep up snow flake.

Is my .45 too large?

Can your shoot it well?
If you feel the need to go that big to take down an elk, Then go and enjoy it.
Go Re read my other post if you’re still confused what I’m saying.

DRE
19xx - 20xx

Here Lies a Gelding

Too Metro-Sexual to shoot a magnum

Beloved by all Castrated Males

Lmao.
Note to self...Size queen get triggered easily

There are a few rational people that frequent this site.....that alone is somewhat consoling! Being one of the rational few.....puts you into a small elite group! Memtb

Be sure and tell everyone on here their Marlin 1895 in 45-70 is too big or their 450 Marlin...dumbazz.

And since those 1895's in 45-70 are too big for you, I damn well know a Metro-Sexual like you couldn't carry my 12.75 lb. Shiloh Sharps in 45-110 up and down a mountain.

LOL, talk about snowflakes. The topic is cartridge, not caliber.

You do know the difference, right?

When I lived in Colorado, I was friends with an older game warden. He told me the most popular cartridge for elk poachers was the 25-20 when it was available followed by the .22 Hornet. He always keep a sharp eye on me mid-winter, because he knew I owned both.

Dre,is my .460 too big for elk?

.460 Wby using a 500 grain Hornady DGX at 2070 fps.


.460 Wby using a 400 grain Speer at 2500 fps.


With a 400 grain Swift A-Frame at 2500-2600 fps I would not hesitate to use the .460 on elk.

elkhunternm, That May “not” not be my first choice for shots over 400 yards, but for under 400 yards....a hunter could chose “far” worse! memtb

Yes, it takes 2 days before you stop seeing double after shooting that thing.

Masochist.

Elkhunternm, do you want a participation award or pat on a back to get some attention for shooting a rabbit with 460 wby.
You get triggered too?
You and elkslayer91 should set up a tent at broke back mountain and see who’s is bigger.

Yeah i saw that as well.
There was No point bringing it up

I knew a former Colorado outfitter who from an early age killed Bulls and Muleys with a 243for a long time . He graduated to a 270 when he took a trip to Africa and after that was stolen on his return trip to the states he ended up with a 300 win mag.

Dre,I see. It's easier to insult someone than answer a question.

My shots at elk have been two hundred yards or less.

Because I’ve tried to explain my self about 4 times, and if you feel like you need to stir the pot again, no sense in kindness.

I see,so you still could not answer a simple question.

Ugh.
Once again, IMO as ‘in my opinion’
460 is over kill.
Yes it is better than under gunned, just over kill as elk are not bullet proof and even with a shoulder canon like that a bad shot will not take down an elk.
You ok now? that I approved your 460.

I ran my DNA....no Indian here. Sometimes, I can’t inside 200 yards!
memtb

How is the .460 "over kill?"

And what is "over kill/"

Yes, the 460 Wthby is overkill for elk--so is the 340--it's kinda' like driving our turbo diesel pickup to the store for a gallon of milk. But if a turbo diesel is what you've got to fetch milk, then drive it........

I had a buddy who loved 458 Win Mags--he had 4 of 'em, 2 were P64 M70's. He even antelope hunted with us and used a 458. He was fond of saying, "No brain, no pain"..........

Or, if that's just what you feel like using...

That's nice if your hunting on a private preserve.

Those of us who hunt on public lands need a real gun.

.243 works fine on public land in NM.

I've got a 243 that has killed 11 elk--all of 'em on public land...........

It’s only overkill if the recoil affects your accuracy.






P

You mean something like this.....

I don't think so. Dead is dead no matter the caliber.

Personally,I like the .340 and .338 RUM for elk.

Winning comment on this thread

That's fine if you hunt in New Mexico but.......

I guess if our elk ever learn to read english we’ll have to start using real guns.

Group from my .460 Wby using 95.0 grains of Var-Get with a 500 grain Hornady DGX at 100 yards. Velocity average is 2300 fps.

Ken,
Case closed with criticism invalidated.
Well done.
John

Yup.

Dre posted “243” and “416” which are calibers, not cartridges. Dre changed the subject to calibers by not specifying a particular 243 cartridge, there are two, or a particular 416 cartridge, of which there are four.

Again, you show yourself to be a complete fool out here, which you have perfected better than anyone I’ve ever seen on the internet, Mr. fake backpacker Elk hunter.

Purpose is different. Poachers aren't looking for an ethical shot that will cleanly and quickly take the one elk they legally can shoot per year. They're just shooting at multiple animals presumably all year long. Analogous to slimy plaintiff's lawyers that take a high volume of low-probability cases and barely do any work, hoping one of them will stick,

Ethical hunting on a single animal often involves hoping to have some pride in harvesting versus what unethical slimy poachers do.

I'm not taking second-hand implicit cartridge advice from sleazebags who care not if they wound countless animals and leave them for dead.

I'll eagerly pay attention to ethical hunters who hunt elk with anything from a .243 Win up to a .460 Wby, but I don't care what the criminal barbarians use.

Dang. You’re right. I need to stop hunting with my .340 Wby.

Some of my recent 3-shot 100 yd groups sighting in my new scope have gone from 1/8” to 1/4” and I even had one 3/4" group when the barrel got hot.





The three upper-left 100 yd groups below comprising eight shots were when I began re-sighting in my .340 after bore-sighting with the new scope (the other four groups were from my son's new .243 with various loads to see how they grouped).



What should I do? I’m just going to throw that rifle in the creek and be done with it. I can shoot my .308 about the same, way more accurately than I can shoot my way-lower-recoiling 5.56s (hint; it ain’t the recoil); I can shoot the 340 Wby way better than my 7mm Wby (same hint); I can shoot my .375 Wby way better than my .243 (same hint); I can shoot my .300 Win Mag way better than anything other than my .340 (same hint). It ain’t the recoil.

What’s worse is that, in this only video I have of me shooting the 5,000 ft-lb .340 Wby (225 gr TTSX at 3,160 fps) my son took last year, you can see how violent the recoil is. The .340 moved the rifle back into my shoulder almost a half inch! That's far too much shock and awe for me.

Video: https://i.imgur.com/xMUu4AG.mp4

It’s insane! And it's way unacceptable to even think of shooting such a thing. It’s almost(!!!) as bad as shooting a 12 gauge! I’m talking about a 12 gauge! Not a .410. I’m done with that rifle. Give me a .0111 caliber from now on.

That little non-bruising harmless slap on the shoulder is way, way too much potential future pain for me to gently squeeze a trigger while holding the rifle and scope still. Even though I have done it consistently for 32 years, all of those hundreds of range sessions and dead animals must have been a fluke. I need to quit what's working so well, and start shooting a .000000112 caliber rifle because anything more obviously is stupid.

That non-bruising push on my shoulder can't go on!!!!! I need a minimum caliber that is good because ... it also doesn't bruise my shoulder.

I'm a convert.

If I shoot a .243, it will equally non-bruise my shoulder. But, because it has a lighter bullet, it will shoot much more better than the 1/8" - 1/2" groups I shoot with my .340 Wby

Thanks.

Judge: I believe we are at a stopping point here, and will go into lunch recess.

Will the prosecution be ready after lunch recess for their cross examination?

Prosecutor: Your honor, the prosecution drops all charges against high caliber / magnum hunting rifles, and would kindly ask the court to dismiss the case, based on grounds of no evidence.

LOL, "elkslayer" called me a fake backapcker, what am I to do?

But I do like the way you just unwittingly proved you don't know the difference between "cartridge" and "caliber" when you pegged the number of 243 cartridges at "two."

When you're using 243 to mean caliber as you did above you have to know that there are many more than two, including all of the various cartridges with 6 or 6 mm in the name.

When you're using 243 to mean the name of a particular cartridge, you might end up at "two."

PS, the topic of the thread is set by the OP, and is contained in the title of the thread........

You know well as others I was saying 243 win. And 416 rigby. Just like someone says they are using a 308, they are talkin about 308 win. Not 300 win mag that uses 308 bullet.
You want to be technical? If, I was talking about bullet diameter I would have used the (.) as in point xxx. OR I would have saiid 24 caliber, as no one really says 243 caliber. SMH.
I’m Glad you boys shoot those guns well and feel the need to shoot 45/70, 340, 460 as your ‘minimum’ elk cartridges.
Get over what some one thinks, and back on topic.

My .260 with 140 gr Corelokts did a DRT elk kill, at 150 yards. A sample of one......

I would not hesitate to use it again, and plan to on a moose. Good killer on a half-dozen caribou.

The minimum cartridge I would want to use on elk in Wyoming would be a 7x57 or a 7-08. I have seen elk killed with 243 rifles but I have seen elk that got away after being hit with them also. Same with the 25-06. Since I don't have to use the minimum I would use I would take a 270, 7MM RM, 30-06, 300 Win mag, 338 Win mag or a 35 Whelen. I have killed elk with these rifles and would feel comfortable using them again. Were I to hunt Roosevelt elk in western Washington state my minimum would be a light 358 Winchester pushing 250 grain bullets. I guess a 338 Federal would be just as good. My choices are based on personal experience in those two states.

A good bullet from about any caliber placed in the right spot will kill elk.

I like a .270 and can't determine any difference from a good 6.5 (260 Rem) and a good 7mm to 30 cal bullet launched at decent velocity.

Poke 'em in something that supplies oxygen or pumps blood and they will die pretty regularly.

There are some circumstances where heavier bullets and exit holes make a lot of difference, the ability to penetrate deep, make a wide wound channel and an exit hole mean a lot in thick timber hunting.

I don't think that's gonna cut it.

I was glad to have my “minimum” .300 Weatherby this November during my elk hunt. Shot at first light at 225 yards with no time to dink around with rangefinder and shooting stick. Hold center mass and let it rip, bang flop! 168 TTSX did its job. Happy Trails

Where in center mass did the 168 land?

Just curious!

I had a boiler room bang flop once. 200 grain Speer 338 Win mag. Big old breeder doe at bout 35 yards. She pulled her legs up and bounced when she hit the ground. Her heart was obliterated. Bang flops generally involve some form of CNS disruption in my experience though.

many many good elk cartridges to use and it does kinda depend on money,rifle you like and if you can handle reoil. my personal choice for regular elk hunting a 300 win. mag, long range elk hunting my custom 338 lapua but the next guy might like a 30-30 ,243 win. 30-06 whatever many ways to kill a elk,my biggest bull scored 374 B.C. and that was with a drawn bow and arrow. I still prefer a bow over a rifle so in my eyes any centerfire rifle or musket can kill a elk just fine if you know how to shoot well.

On more than one occasion, I've dug 100gr .243 caliber Nosler Partitions out of Wyoming elk I killed with lager guns, such as the preferred cartridges you describe above. It's not all that difficult to tell who's really hunted Wyoming elk in wild country....

Just curious, did you dig them out of the ass, or lungs?

Out of the ass end. That's why you need something big enough to make it to the lungs from the ass end or hard rear quartering shots.

Or dont shoot things in the ass. (That's what she said)

Well, Center Mass might not be the best description. Center crosshair halfway between backline and brisket, BANG! on quick shots at modest ranges. This one landed behind the shoulder and took out both lungs and exited. If I was smart enough to figure it out, I'd post a picture.

Don't turn this into a 270 thread...

Several years ago I killed a bull that had been shot dead center in the guts by another guy packing a 338 win. shooting 225 grain pills. I'm sure he would have sealed the deal eventually, but he was out of ammo from missing shots on two other elk and two follow up shots on this bull. They came and found me since they were out of options. When I found the bull bedded I put one behind his shoulder. When he fled down the 40* slope through burned trees and boulders, I planted one in the back of his head and the bull's suffering was over.

None of the shots I was presented on that day were ideal, yet the little 6.5 x 55 got it done. I might not choose the 6.5 if the task was ass shooting elk, but I choose to not ass shoot elk.

I think far more elk are wounded and lost due to poor ethics, bad choices, and a lack of ability then to insufficient cartridges. As others have mentioned, putting the proper bullet in the proper location is key. I also believe that far more "bullet failures" are a result of bad shooting over shoddy bullet construction.

The minimum cartridge I would be comfortable with?. A 6,5 Creed or similar using a 130 grain quality bullet at 2700 fps or more. A .300 Savage 150 grain would be fine with me as well.

The two I use the most?. A .30-06 with 180NPT's or a .338 Win Mag with 225 TBBC's has been my choice for several years. Before that it was a .308 Win.

That said, three of my female relatives have been using .243's and 6mm Remingtons for well over 25 years with reliable results.

"None of the shots I was presented on that day were ideal, yet the little 6.5 x 55 got it done. I might not choose the 6.5 if the task was ass shooting elk, but I choose to not ass shoot elk.

I think far more elk are wounded and lost due to poor ethics, bad choices, and a lack of ability then to insufficient cartridges. As others have mentioned, putting the proper bullet in the proper location is key. I also believe that far more "bullet failures" are a result of bad shooting over shoddy bullet construction."


Pretty much says it all right there!

I can ethically take more shots with a .338 Win Mag than I can with a .243.

My hunting party has been killing elk in SW Colorado since the 70’s, probably 50-60 head in that time and mostly bulls in the last 20 years. I’ve only ever heard of one elk being hit and not recovered, there haven’t been any since I started going in 2001. The largest cartridge used would be a 30/06 or a 7RM. The vast majority have been killed with the 270WCF. That’s how I figured Boddington was FOS at an early age. He was always blowing about the 270 being too small for elk.

Most of the guys in camp are fond of Partitions though there is no agreement on weight and it hasn’t seemed to matter. The one uncle who is responsible for nearly half of our total is an especially big fan of the 150 NPT at 2750 in his 270 or the 162 Hornady from his 7 mag.

We’ve killed elk from 10 yards to over 500.

I’ve used the the 260, 257 and 270 Weatherbys, and the good old 30/06. Stick a good bullet in the front half and they’re done pretty soon.

Enlighten us about the 260 Weatherby you killed elk with....

Whoops. It was just a M7 in 260rem. Punctuation is important.

And you could top 'em all with the .50 BMG.

I have only butt-shot one elk, a raghorn bull that had been previously shot through the bottom of the heart with a 200-grain Nosler Partition from a .300 Weatherby Magnum. The bull was obviously hard-hit, and of course would have died pretty soon, but if it had been shot through the top of the heart wouldn't have been still standing up, facing away. A second 200 Partition that clipped part of the pelvis while traveling through was what's often called the "wazoo" dropped the bull instantly. That bullet didn't exit. and I traced its path through the guts and diaphragm into the chest, but couldn't find it.

Yeah, I know Partitions aren't supposed to penetrate as deeply as many newer bullets, but I've shot more elk with the .30-caliber 200 Partition than any other bullet, from various .30 caliber cartridges from the .30-06 up, including three .300 magnums, often with angling shots. That's the only one that's stayed inside an elk, which indicates it might be reasonably adequate, even from the wimpy old .30-06. I also took my biggest bull, both in antler and body, with the .30-06 and the 180-grain Trophy Bonded Tip, at 250 yards as it stood angling away across a small canyon. It walked slowly for maybe 20 feet before stopping broadside, locked up. Another shot dropped it right there.

My wife and I have also used various sub-.30 cartridges on elk, including the dreaded .270 Winchester, sometimes with Partitions but also with other bullets. One of the .270 elk was a cow Eileen shot through the lungs with a 150 Partition, whereupon it started to stagger downhill away from her--and we needed to haul the elk uphill a few hundred yards over a ridge, before heading downhill a couple miles downhill to the pickup. So she shot it again in the tailbone, which dropped it right there. She has shot most her other elk, and a bull Shiras moose, with the .270, using either 150 Partitions or 140 TSX's. They all went down within at most a few feet.

The moose was as large as any bull elk I've seen on the ground. It stood quartering away to the left, and took a step and a half before folding up. The 150 Partition entered the left ribs and stopped under the hide of the right shoulder.

The smallest cartridge and bullet Eileen has used on elk is the .257 Roberts with a 100-grain Barnes TTSX, which dropped an average-size cow right there. The elk was standing angling slightly uphill on a slope, quartering away to the right, and the bullet went through both lungs, clipping the very bottom of the spine, before ending up under the hide of the left shoulder. She dropped the biggest cow either of us have taken last year with a 130-grain TTSX loaded to about 2900 fps from her .308. The cow was quartering toward us at around 250 yards, and staggered 20-25 yards before flopping, obviously hard-hit. The bullet broken the near shoulder just above the joint, ending up under the hide on the opposite side of the ribcage, minus all its petals. Many hunters think X-Bullets won't penetrate or kill well when they lose petals, but the cow didn't get the memo.

A good friend, a retired outfitter, has been using the .22-250 for around a decade now with yearly success. But these days he only shoots cows and raghorns, usually in herds, and likes the .22-250 because bullets won't exit, even on perfectly broadside rib shots, and wound another elk on the far side. Dunno what bullet he uses, because he's never mentioned it.

Damned if I know what's minimum for elk.

Shot a bedded cow through the ribs @~225yds w/257Wb-100TSX. She wasn't going anywhere but did struggle to her feet, a 2nd round through the shoulders anchored her before she was able to actually take a step. It it wasn't the lightning quick death I've experienced with similar placement on deer. Haven't carried that combo for elk since.

270Win/140TSX is a very adequate elk combo. I've witnessed 4 elk killed w/that combo from ~100-425yds. Elk shot through the lungs die in 5-10sec and sure haven'f gone far in that time. Hunting buddy shoots 150 TTSX through 280AI and results are indistinguishable IMO/IME.

300Win/200part. I've killed 2 bulls with this combo, 1st one took the 1st hit just a bit low as I got the front leg but didn't get into the chest. Gong-show from there. 1st hit was ~400yds, last was 500. I shot 7 times total, hitting the elk 4 times. Broadside one facing each direction shots going through the lungs and straight on, missing thrice as well. My 1st elk, I was kinda wound up. 2nd elk w/the 200part I got right through the neck/shoulder junction @ 300yds and he dropped at the shot. Hunting partner used to use 338Win/210part to similar effect.

300Win/200 TSX, I've killed 8 elk w/this combo and witnessed 2 others. Well placed shots result in very authoritative and dramatically quick kills. Less that ideal shots have still slowed elk down enough (significantly) that I've been able to get a better killing shot in fairly quickly and not lose them. Cows and bulls from 125-500yds. Hunting partner shoots 210TTSX/338Win and results are the same.

As I survey my very limited experience (let's face it, there are folks who see 20elk killed in a week) the only thing I can really say for certain is that proper placement is better than a bigger case/bullet combo. I'm confident that I could kill elk with pretty much any Center-fire I own, however, I'm not intentionally going elk hunting with anything less than my 270Win and a good bullet.

Helped a buddy butcher a cow this year. He sliced into the hind quarter and a mushroomed. 243 boat tail slug fell out. There was no sign of a wound on the hide or infection in the meat, it had been there a year or two. I'm sure that guy tells everyone a .243 isn't big enough for elk. I'd shoot em with my 22.250 if they'd let me.

Isn’t that the truth...

Actually drawing a decent tag is the most difficult part of elk hunting.

Most of my elk have been killed with a bow and arrow. My half dozen or so rifle kills have been with a 30-06 and 180gr bullets of some sort. Most elk were shot and walked off like nothing happened then tipped over dead within 40-50 yards. If I am so lucky as to draw an elk tag this season I will be toting my new Kimber Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor. Two main reasons, first is that it weighs almost 3# less than my 30-06 and second is I want to. I see no reason it will not do the job within 1/4 mile.

IMO, finding a decent bull is the most difficult part of elk hunting. I’ve had multiple bulls in my sights the least two years, but havent pulled the trigger since 2016...

One question John, is the 270 Win as good of an elk round as the 6.5 Creedmoor?

Damn Brad. How's that Mcdonalds tasting? Just kidding with you. It takes great restraint to not pull the trigger. I made up my mind I'm not going to shoot another damn spike. Of course I had my scope crosshairs on a little spike this year and decided to hold true to what I said, and walked away with 100% gratification.

I've heard 22wmr... If that is any help.. Heard that from some oldtimers in Washington state..

While not totally definitive, I would surmise that the minimum elk cartridge would be whatever rifle/ cartridge combination you have in hand when said elk is encountered and must be shot.

The Creedmoor has pixie dust. Read it here and elsewhere on the internet.

The loaded question to end all loaded questions. Hee hee. I'm dying to know too.

I would say minimum bullet construction is a bigger concern .I have killed Bull Elk and moose with a well constructed bullet with no issues from a 25/06, I know others who have used smaller chamberings.

I can't say exactly why, but I am still drawn to these "cartridge, bullet, fpe" threads. So I read the whole thing (up early, didn't want to wake up the wife or kids, so just reading with coffee).

Since I spend nearly half my time in rural PA, and the other half in MT, I find some limitations in the question asked in the OP. Which elk, exactly? Hunting where, and in what kind of terrain? These things matter when thinking about which cartridge would be considered "minimum."

The same thing comes up with deer. I see lots of deer in rural PA, but were I to chase one with a rifle, my shots would likely be closer than 100yds. If I hunted were a mature buck ran 150lb, and rarely any bigger, that would also matter.

So the typical shot distance on elk will be vastly different if I am hunting heavy timber as opposed to hunting open canyons in a 20-year-old burn. If I am carrying a cow or spike tag, there will likely be body-size differences than if I am in a trophy area after brow-tine bulls. These are significant, if I am after a "minimum" cartridge, are they not?

A 30-30 is not considered very powerful, and would be quite ineffective if my shots were likely to stretch to beyond 500 yds, but that same 30-30 would be ideal in heavy timber, where my shots are likely to be less than 100. If long ranges are typical for an area hunted, then flatter-shooting cartridges and sleek bullets are a necessity.

If we are talking about a minimum that covers all bases, that is going to be hard to nail down, as one could simply pass on shots where the gun/cartridge/bullet combo in hand didn't meet the requirements of the immediate shot, as we all have done from time to time.

All that said, I've never packed anything smaller in terms of caliber and "power level" for elk than a 243 with 100gr bullets at 3050 or a 257 with 100gr bullets at 2850. Both of those have worked, but both have seemed very marginal at times, to the point of being seemingly ineffective. The good news is that we are not limited to one shot per game animal. And neck shots are always decisive, if done right. Though I've toyed with the idea of using a 223 with bonded 64 gr bullets for elk, and if I happened to have said combo in hand when an ideal shot arose, I would take that shot (and keep shooting until the elk was down), I don't think I would pack a 223 if elk was the main or the only quarry. And if trophy-class bulls were getting chased, more bullet would be preferred than the 100gr 24 or 25 cal.

30 round mags?......

Nah. Neck shots work.

I'm with you, there...

If I draw the etolin elk rifle tag this year, my choices will be:

Kimber MT 7 WSM 162 Amax
Kimber MT 300WSM 155 Scenar
Kimber Montana 6.5 Creedmoor 147 ELDM
Rem Model 7 7 Saum 150 E Tip
Rem 700 243 AI 105 Amax

Good to have choices. Brutal hunt, big bodied elk. Hope I draw.

theres always been a trade off in the rifles weight,(ease of carrying )
velocity, (flat trajectory , or reach,)
its impact power,(weight and diameter of the projectile )
and as a result of the choices made , its recoil.
theres plenty of evidence that a small properly placed projectile can produce a lethal wound,
theres also a good deal of physics that say a larger mass projectile moving at reasonable velocity ,
can produce a deeper and larger diameter wound, the trade off is increased recoil.
you can,t dispute simple physics, a larger mass at a similar velocity hits a harder blow on impact.
(and generally induces more recoil on the shooters shoulder.)
and once the projectile from your rifle of choice,
can from any reasonable range or angle produce a lethal wound, on the game hunted,
and the trajectory over the vast majority of the ranges your likely to be confronted with allows easy shot placement,
theres no reason to select something with more velocity or a heavier projectile.
the projectile does all the work on impact and the technology, of bullet design, has improved in recent decades
https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi
your ability to tolerate recoil generally will vary with the rifles stock design,
use of a sling and recoil pad, muzzle brake ,and it varies with your position you shoot from, your body size,
total experience and training to some extent.
having confidence in your choice is a significant factor in your ability to successfully hunt.
Ive seen a 257 Roberts drop elk rather quickly at about 150-to-180 yards a couple times, moved less than 30-40 yards
Ive seen an elk act like a shot from a 7mm mag was marginal, as it ran over 80 yards with a lung/liver destroyed,
yet the next two shot with the same rifle dropped inside a few steps.
being a bit pragmatic I watch what other people used and see the results they have gotten.
Ive consistently seen good results from a 358 win with a 250 grain bullet and a 340 wby with a 250 grain bullet,
Ive seen a 270 win with a 150 grain bullet and a 30/06 with a 200 grain bullet year after year produce one shot kills,
it eventually became obvious to me that there was some advantage in the heavier projectiles,
the game, well hit in the vitals, was much more likely to drop in a few steps
but damn near any rifle in skilled hands would work.
Id also point out, to be fair, that in over 50 years of hunting,
Ive rarely shot game or seen game shot at ranges exceeding about 250 yards.

That would have also worked for a .30-06.

yeah from what I've heard, over toward Coos Bay....

many an elk has been taken with a 22 Mag and a Flashlight...

right in the ear or eye...

tzone,
Yes, the '06 would have worked just as well at that range. No doubt that the .308 Win or .270 would have taken care of business in that situation. Happy Trails

If you are hunting in Colorado, the Minimum Cartridge/Caliber question has been answered for you, by the Colorado Dept. of Parks and Wildlife:

1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be a minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, a maximum of six rounds are allowed in the magazine and
chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh a minimum of 70 grains for deer,
pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy
(at 100 yards) of 1,000-ft.-pounds as rated by manufacturer.

Their brochure doesn't list a maximum caliber restriction, so I guess if you want to use your .460 Weatherby, it's your call.......

Here's a 75 grain Amax I pulled out of the offside hide of a nice sized cow elk. Shot was 430 yards through the lungs. Starting velocity 2750 fps courtesy of a shortie 223. She traveled around 20 yards and piled up. Have also used the same setup for a neck shot, but did not recover the bullet as it exited. That cow elk went about 30 yards, because she was rolling down a steep hill.

I was just givin you a little crap.

If/when I ever get to hunt elk, it will most likely be with a .308 Win or a .30-06

Sounds like you're feeling lucky. Only 7 weeks till we get our hopes crushed.

Same rifle choices if you draw Delta Sheep?

I don't live out West, and have only shot 5 elk and assisted on killing two others, my minimum would be the 270 Winchester firing a 150gr Partition at a damn accurate 2900 fps.

My comfortable minimum for BULL elk would be a 7mm-08 but I seen the kreedmire kill elk on Youtube out to 500 yards!

The Indians here use a 22-250?

Yeah, they don't give a chit if they recover one or not. They just go shoot another one. Fugg the tribal poachers.

I hunt big Roosevelt Elk on Afognak Island in Alaska. We've shot elk the size of moose - our biggest was around 1400 pounds. Over the years we've harvested over 20 elk. I've kept tabs on calibers and the heavy hitters have often failed while the non magnum rounds have a perfect record. I used to use a 300 win mag with 200 grain bullets, but 6 years ago I switched to a 308 with 180 grain bullets. I feel more confident with the 308 and have shot an elk 5 straight years with the caliber. Last year I dropped my elk at 300 yards while a 7 rem mag at 100 yards failed to do the job. I truly believe the lighter rounds are better because we all shoot them better. Also they are less speedy and so the bullets are less likely to do crazy things. The only elk I ever shot that got away was at 50 yards with the 300 win mag and using a 200g bullet. I hit it perfectly but it ran away - sometimes velocity is not such a good thing. Patrick

PAGC requires a 270 as minimum.
Of course, it's Pa.
We don't really have elk.

.256 Newton for the win

The last 6 that we shot :
3 shot with .280 Rem 120 B-Tip 421 yds, 426 yds, 200 yds.
3 shot with 7-08 120 B-Tips 2@325 yds, 1 @ 125 yds

All 1 shot kills. 5 dropped within a few feet. 1 wandered maybe 30-40 yards

People sweat the small things too much.

Not to say big, heavy bullets are not good; witness the .35 Whelen, but I believe velocity is always your friend when using light for caliber, well constructed bullets. Poorly hit elk will usually haul ass not to be found....

Happy Trails

Red deer were culled in New Zealand with .22 Hornets and the .222 Remington throughout the 50's and 60's.
The professional culler's were paid by the tail count they brought in.

The minimum rifle cartridge diameter is 6mm in Colorado but there are pistol cartridges with much less energy that are legal. Go figure.

Daughter #1 has done her elk hunting with a .308 Win and 130g TTSX @ 3045fps. I figure that would have worked out to about 500 yards at 7000 feet and above, but she shoots further a the range so I traded her ex-hubby's .30-06 for a .270 Win. Developed loads for the 150g Long Range AccuBond. With the higher B.C. and increased weight, the 150g LRAB will do at 600 yards what the 130g TTSX will do at 325 yards, at least in terms of retained energy. And it will do it with about 2 ft-lbs more recoil, about 18 vs a bit under 16. Thinking that will work well for her.

For those who would like to keep shooting their favorite cartridge but recoil is starting to take its toll, or those thinking they need to move up in cartridge, I would encourage you to look into GS Custom bullets (hollow point, monos). I have remarked on these before. To be clear, I have no financial interest in the company. Due to their design, they shoot softer or faster, or a combo thereof; your pick. I've used them in 375 Ruger (200 gr). Point is, if you want to shoot a cartridge with a little more authority, maybe a larger wound channel, but getting tired of recoil, these may be your ticket. Downside is you need a chrono, but load development is easy. Step-load up to get to desired MV, then maybe 4-5 different 3 shot groups at varying depths to get best accuracy. Done. My Ruger GG shot all 5 groups under MOA. I settled on the depth giving me .55. (Just three shot groups). YMMV

The ideal elk cartridges are those you can shoot well and accurately and delivers enough velocity and energy at POI to get the job done cleanly. There isn't just "one".

My hunting buddy has diabetes-related shoulder problems and heavy recoiling loads, while possibly "ideal" for others, are not for him. I saw a huge bull hanging that was shot by a young lady I think was all of 12 years old. She used a .25-06 and a 117g bullet. I'm pretty sure a 378WBY would have been a less acceptable choice for her.

A lot of people way overthink this. Most shots taken are well within the effective range of most legal cartridges.

But heck, elk season is a long ways off. Gotta talk about something.