So I got scope mounted on bushmaster . It's a $150 sig whiskey 3-9x40. Barrel is 16", trigger is stock at 7.5 lbs. Stock hand guards, cheap bipod, shooting 55gr 223 federal or Geco probably both( took loaded mags). Zeroed @ 50 yrs dead on. At 200 was about 4" high so I shot at bottom of 8" ring. All but a couple fell in 5" ring. It was windy today, & I have a hard time keeping steady at that distance. Trigger is stiff at 7.5, but breaks crisp. Just curious what this rifle, & factory ammo should group?
“Just curious what this rifle, & factory ammo should group?”
Is this a serious question?
I’ll say it should be capable of sub 1/4” one shot groups but only if you do your part.
“Just curious what this rifle, & factory ammo should group?”
Is this a serious question?
I’ll say it should be capable of sub 1/4” one shot groups but only if you do your part.
WOW a comedian
“Just curious what this rifle, & factory ammo should group?”
Is this a serious question?
I’ll say it should be capable of sub 1/4” one shot groups but only if you do your part.
That answers the question nicely.
Yes it was a serious question. My hunting rifle sets in a mechanical rifle rest where I can dial it up, down ,right & left. The trigger is half the pull, & the rest holds it almost perfectly still. I set it at 100 yds and it's a tack driver. I know I'm the error in the equation, plus the trigger sucks on the ar. I'm sure I can do a lot better, but 1/4" ? I doubt it.
The setup and ammo you are using is not condusive to fine accuracy. I would expect to see 4-5" groups at 200 yds. That ammo is minute of bad guy to about 300 yds.
Yes it was a serious question. My hunting rifle sets in a mechanical rifle rest where I can dial it up, down ,right & left. The trigger is half the pull, & the rest holds it almost perfectly still. I set it at 100 yds and it's a tack driver. I know I'm the error in the equation, plus the trigger sucks on the ar. I'm sure I can do a lot better, but 1/4" ? I doubt it.
Read TWR's post again. Slowly this time. Also, why even shoot if you are putting your rifle in a vise? No hunting rifle should be clamped down. It should be steered by the owner. Just sayin.. Just so you know, your question is extremely vague. Guys answering with a should shoot "4-5" groups", have no clue...
It's not in a vise & not clamped down. I never said that. What I was implying was that it was a better setup for getting a bolt gun set accurately. It's not something you could put an ar in unless you had 5 round mag, which I don't.
The setup and ammo you are using is not condusive to fine accuracy. I would expect to see 4-5" groups at 200 yds. That ammo is minute of bad guy to about 300 yds.
You seem to have actually read my post. Thank you. I believe I could do better, was not very steady today. With a better trigger I might get 2-3" group.
I read your post.
16” Bushmaster. Which one? Chrome lined pencil barrel? HBAR or V Match?
$150 scope in who knows what mount, you never did tell us which mount you wound up with. 223 Federal or Geco, which version and which one?
7.5 lb trigger? Can you manipulate it without moving off the bull?
I’m sorry but lately folks here are asking questions without thinking about them. Details matter if you want a decent answer. I mean heck, you were the one shooting it, how did it do?
Xm15 es2, chrome lined, 1 in 8 twist, one piece weaver offset mount similar to the burris pepr. I bought this before 2016 election figuring they wouldn't be available. Came with a cheap hammers red dot. Vortex sparc I had on it is all I'll ever need. Not sure if it was federal xm193 or geco, but positive it was 223 55gr. Honestly at that distance & with the stiff trigger it's hard to squeeze a shot off without some movement. I'd say with a better trigger & more practice results would be better. Now here is an easily answered question for an experienced shooter. At 200 yds I'm 4" high with vortex red dot or this scope. Both were set dead on at 50. I've consistently read maybe 2" high with 50-200 yd set up. It's 206 yds according to my rangefinder. Does 4" high sound right?
FMJ ammo is not target ammo as you know. Usually 3 moa is acceptable but I’ve seen some shoot better at times.
The trigger can be worked through just pay attention.
A 1/4” off at 50 yards will make a huge difference at 200. That’s why we should sight in at 200 and see where 50 hits. 4” high at 200 is not right but again, with FMJ ammo, it would be hard to call a zero, especially a 3 shot zero by centering the group at 200. Shooting a 10 shot group at 200 will give you a better idea of where zero is.
A hundred bucks more or less will get you a much better trigger.
That's about par for FMJ ammo.
Nothing you do will change that.
You are not going to get great accuracy shooting FMJ ammo.
Here is an example shooting some factory varmint ammo (50 grain Federal) from an HBAR profile 8 twist 16" barrel. This was earlier this month over some bags. This is three, 3 shot groups. Average into the .3s. I would expect that at 200 yards I would still be around the 1" range + or - a couple tenths.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/Wa7Uewr.jpg)
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
Wind has a big impact, thus the change in point of impact.
Wind flags teach a lot, few use them.
Ten shot groups definitely give you more insight into dispersion (range of hits off of point of aim), and so help to better adjust POA to be centered where you want the average shot centered.
I started using the ten shot groups on the 24hourcampfire black rifle challenge targets, and now all of my friends who care about accuracy are piling on.
Ten shot groups tell me more about minute of ground squirrel, which is what I'm using varmint ammo for.
"Wind has a big impact, thus the change in point of impact."
It's pretty common to see groups start on one side and go to the other side or back and forth in a 10 shot group, even without the wind.
The setup and ammo you are using is not conducive to fine accuracy. I would expect to see 4-5" groups at 200 yds. That ammo is minute of bad guy to about 300 yds.
Yeah, probably fairly close, but I wouldn't be too surprised that that combination would be around 2.5-3 MOA at 100 yards, so very likely 5-6" 200 yard groups, even with 5 shot groups.
It is what it is, maybe plus or minus a very small amount. But once in a while it might be better but usually there aint no Coupe De' Ville at the bottom of the Cracker Jack box.
And that's why guys build "precision" AR's.
MM
I think for a little money, I would be dropping in a nicer trigger, and some 68/69 grain match bullets. Then consider accuracy.
Tough trigger and FMJ ammo is a plinker.
The setup and ammo you are using is not conducive to fine accuracy. I would expect to see 4-5" groups at 200 yds. That ammo is minute of bad guy to about 300 yds.
Yeah, probably fairly close, but I wouldn't be too surprised that that combination would be around 2.5-3 MOA at 100 yards, so very likely 5-6" 200 yard groups, even with 5 shot groups.
It is what it is, maybe plus or minus a very small amount. But once in a while it might be better but usually there aint no Coupe De' Ville at the bottom of the Cracker Jack box.
And that's why guys build "precision" AR's.
MM
👍
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
No offense taken, you are spot on.
I was zeroing the gun for that ammo (new optic on the rifle) and making windage and elevation adjustments as I was going.
I think for a little money, I would be dropping in a nicer trigger, and some 68/69 grain match bullets. Then consider accuracy.
Tough trigger and FMJ ammo is a plinker.
Better triggers are never a bad thing, IMHO.
Doesn't make the gun any more accurate, but it definitely enhance the ease of which the shooter can shoot consistent groups, with the gun's inherent potential.
For $80, the LaRue trigger is worth the wait.........................
MM
Ten shot groups definitely give you more insight into dispersion (range of hits off of point of aim), and so help to better adjust POA to be centered where you want the average shot centered.
I started using the ten shot groups on the 24hourcampfire black rifle challenge targets, and now all of my friends who care about accuracy are piling on.
Ten shot groups tell me more about minute of ground squirrel, which is what I'm using varmint ammo for.
Uh oh bsa will be by soon asking how come they haven’t posted their targets to the black rifle thread..
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups.
Ten shot groups definitely give you more insight into dispersion (range of hits off of point of aim), and so help to better adjust POA to be centered where you want the average shot centered.
I started using the ten shot groups on the 24hourcampfire black rifle challenge targets, and now all of my friends who care about accuracy are piling on.
Ten shot groups tell me more about minute of ground squirrel, which is what I'm using varmint ammo for.
Uh oh bsa will be by soon asking how come they haven’t posted their targets to the black rifle thread..
We got too many hip shooters and torso is good enough guys here now. Not a lot of guys want to play with a precision rifle here anymore. Good thing my club still has our AR shoots. The beauty in those real world shooting events is the schidt you hear about 1/2 moa all day long goes out the window. Its put up or shut the fu ck up. We know who shoots around here and who bull chidts..
I think for a little money, I would be dropping in a nicer trigger, and some 68/69 grain match bullets. Then consider accuracy.
Tough trigger and FMJ ammo is a plinker.
Better triggers are never a bad thing, IMHO.
Doesn't make the gun any more accurate, but it definitely enhance the ease of which the shooter can shoot consistent groups, with the gun's inherent potential.
For $80, the LaRue trigger is worth the wait.........................
MM
After Christmas and maybe into the new year.. But yeah, its a wait for sure.. I just buy the RRA 2 stage varmint match for $79 when it goes on sale. Not hardly a wait and its a good trigger for the price tag..
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
No offense taken, you are spot on.
I was zeroing the gun for that ammo (new optic on the rifle) and making windage and elevation adjustments as I was going.
No offense, but did you ever get it zeroed? I didn't see anything on your target that represented a good zero. Unless you like hitting off to the side?
I was just throwing out some possibilities for being 4” high at 200 with a dead on zero at 50. I’m not sure he shoots 3 shot groups or 20, I just assumed.
Today I went out and confirmed zero on my Colt 6720 and H2 Aimpoint. If you recall I sighted it in and went to confirm zero at 200 yards on the windiest day of the year. Even then I shot a 3 shot group about 2” to the right but it was an moa sized group. Today I had no wind and shot another 3 shot group that was centered but one shot opened the group up to about 4” straight up.
I was shooting a paper pie plate with a 2 moa red dot at 200 yards so there was no need to try and do any better. I’m tickled with my results and it’ll kill anything I want dead. But it all started with a 10 shot group.
I was just throwing out some possibilities for being 4” high at 200 with a dead on zero at 50. I’m not sure he shoots 3 shot groups or 20, I just assumed.
Today I went out and confirmed zero on my Colt 6720 and H2 Aimpoint. If you recall I sighted it in and went to confirm zero at 200 yards on the windiest day of the year. Even then I shot a 3 shot group about 2” to the right but it was an moa sized group. Today I had no wind and shot another 3 shot group that was centered but one shot opened the group up to about 4” straight up.
I was shooting a paper pie plate with a 2 moa red dot at 200 yards so there was no need to try and do any better. I’m tickled with my results and it’ll kill anything I want dead. But it all started with a 10 shot group.
Chit 3 shot groups are for losers!
Lol I do 4 shot groups myself
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups.
I got a Timney impact trigger today. Installed this evening & I got 3.5 - 4 lbs with my cheap wheeler brand trigger gauge. I'm going to try it again 1st chance I get actually setting the scope for 200 yards. I know I can get somewhat better results than the other day, I just wasn't very steady. All the ammo I have is fmj. Mostly federal America eagle, quite a bit of frontier, & also some Winchester m855 which I have never shot. I will try again & report back with results.
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups.
I got a Timney impact trigger today. Installed this evening & I got 3.5 - 4 lbs with my cheap wheeler brand trigger gauge. I'm going to try it again 1st chance I get actually setting the scope for 200 yards. I know I can get somewhat better results than the other day, I just wasn't very steady. All the ammo I have is fmj. Mostly federal America eagle, quite a bit of frontier, & also some Winchester m855 which I have never shot. I will try again & report back with results.
Good on getting a trigger, Because you started with a decent rifle and gave it no help.
I would say ditch the cheap bipod and try shooting off a pack.
I have a cheap little tactical pack with a nice saddle between the two front pockets..
It makes a good platform.
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups.
I got a Timney impact trigger today. Installed this evening & I got 3.5 - 4 lbs with my cheap wheeler brand trigger gauge. I'm going to try it again 1st chance I get actually setting the scope for 200 yards. I know I can get somewhat better results than the other day, I just wasn't very steady. All the ammo I have is fmj. Mostly federal America eagle, quite a bit of frontier, & also some Winchester m855 which I have never shot. I will try again & report back with results.
Nothing wrong with plinking ammo buddy, just don't expect it to group real well out of any rifle. I'm talking your standard military 55gr fmj stuff. Every once in a while you'll find something that shoots well in the fmj variety, but it's not the norm. One of my buddies has a stock pile of M855 62gr green tips that his old Bushmaster National match loves. By love, I mean it shoots 2" groups at 100 with him behind the butt and with iron sights to boot. That is 5 shots per string. I'm lucky to get that with my precision handloads out of my old Colt pre ban using irons and 10 shots per group. Moral of the story, if you are concerned about accuracy, buy or load some better bullets or like MM suggested, build yourself a precision rifle. I was at the range yesterday with a friend and 2 guys showed up with some very nice AR's. One guy had just put a 22 Nosler Proof Research barrel on his rifle and he was testing out some loads. After he got it dialed in, he was shooting some nice 1 1/4" 5 shot groups, but this was with good ammo and bullets. He was shooting well enough that I snuck the BCM back into its case and had to pull the Northtech Defense out.. I keep most of the shots in the orange with that rifle, no matter how fast I'm shooting. The BCM will eventually come around, I hope.. Also, your new trigger should help. What I'm reading about the impact is it should be a 3 pound pull single stage. Should work fine, just don't hear much about them here. I personally prefer the 2 stage match triggers, but those are catered more towards precision rifles. Nothing wrong with a good single stage trigger though..
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
Exactly..
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
I’m pretty sure no one uses 55gr fmj at the 200yd line..
I never bought this particular rifle for precise target shooting & the only one I've put together is a cheap PSA mid length. I doubt it'll do any better than the Bush master/ Remington whatever it is I've got. Just bored & wanting to see how good I can get it to shoot without spending lots of $$. Never even shot my Ruger m77 .308 at 200, & never had a reason to. Never shot a deer over 100 yds that I can recall. I've got a better trigger though, which should be more of a pleasure to shoot. Thanks for all the comments, even the smarta$$ ones.👍
Couple yrs back we had a Nasty guard (national guard)show up To a match shooting high power with sling no optics. He pulls out for ammo 62gr green tip he procured from the Arms room. He was the head guy for the guard team, anyhow he shot that stuff at the 600yd line. He ran out of elevation had to adjust front post to get more elevation lol. But he made it work, didn’t shoot a very good score like 130 something like that. Later I told him go buy some of that mag tech ammo loaded with 77 Sierra’s otm. He was like nope I want the guard to buy the black hills mk262 ammo.. I was like uh ok,, well he finally broke down went and bought some of that ammo and holy chit it did make a difference..
Not sure I could hit a chevette at 600 yards. That's a freakin long way, maybe a Buick though?😊
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
I’m pretty sure no one uses 55gr fmj at the 200yd line..
No surprise, the ones that do are never in the winner's circle.
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
I’m pretty sure no one uses 55gr fmj at the 200yd line..
No surprise, the ones that do are never in the winner's circle.
Yeah I typed before thinking lol because my buddy was going to use 55gr fmj at the 600yd mid range match last week. I told him you are going to have a real rough day using those. He’s new to all of this didn’t know any better. So being the nice guy I am, I loaded him up some no name 75gr otm for the match. I think they are ppu Bullets..
His reason for wanting to use those 55’s because they shot real well at 25yds.
I hope no one thinks they’re gonna win matches with FMJ ammo but sometimes it’s good enough. Especially when it was cheap.
I think the OP was just checking the 50/200 theory, not trying to win a match.
I also think he’d be better off with a 100 yard zero and not have to worry about offset quite so much. Everything is low till 100 and then everything is low again. Pretty simple to remember. I bet most folks with red dots and carbines, choose the 50/200 because it’s easier to zero at 50 and they will never attempt 200 anyway.
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
I’m pretty sure no one uses 55gr fmj at the 200yd line..
I have a story about this...
A while back, I had been hearing about a hard holding WM (Woman Marine) who was shooting summer team and had just won the woman's Service Rifle Championship at Perry the month prior. I naturally thought they were referring to Watson...but I was corrected that it was not Red.
I was to meet GySgt Tamara Fode at the next match. The Marines were shooting M14's for Post and Station Teams, so she brought her personal AR and some store bought ammo. During the course of getting to know her, she showed me her ammo; 55's and 69's. You have to understand that military team shooters just shoot what they're handed. So..shooting without military support was uncharted territory for her.
She asked me if she thought they'd do OK at 600? I told her they weren't ideal, but if she watched her wind calls and was aggressive on the knob, she could do OK. Internally I was thinking "train wreck" and was tempted to give her some of my ammo, but I didn't bring extra that day.
Coming off the 600 yard line, we compared scores...She shot a very respectable aggregate and 'effen cleaned my clock at 600 yards!! I want to say she shot a 194 and beat my 192 in a tough wind...Later I found that she had just fired a 491 in the NTI beating out Watson for the Women's Trophy that year.
Couple yrs back we had a Nasty guard (national guard)show up To a match shooting high power with sling no optics. He pulls out for ammo 62gr green tip he procured from the Arms room. He was the head guy for the guard team, anyhow he shot that stuff at the 600yd line. He ran out of elevation had to adjust front post to get more elevation lol. But he made it work, didn’t shoot a very good score like 130 something like that. Later I told him go buy some of that mag tech ammo loaded with 77 Sierra’s otm. He was like nope I want the guard to buy the black hills mk262 ammo.. I was like uh ok,, well he finally broke down went and bought some of that ammo and holy chit it did make a difference..
Isn't Fleisshacker up your way?...was he not able to get your Guardsman squared away for ammo?
Coming off the 600 yard line, we compared scores...She shot a very respectable aggregate and 'effen cleaned my clock at 600 yards!! I want to say she shot a 194 and beat my 192 in a tough wind...Later I found that she had just fired a 491 in the NTI beating out Watson for the Women's Trophy that year.
Yow! That is something!
The few competent mortals I've met who somehow ended up with 69s at 600 went from their normal 180s-190s at 600 to scores south of 170 in challenging winds with those 69s.
Luckily, it doesn't happen often that people forget to grab their long-line ammo.
I have another story but it will take a bit because internet is down and I suck at pecking on the phone.
There’s much about shooting groups on this board but I got an amazing lesson in knowing your rifle/ammo capabilities and keeping things centered up.
The USMC runs the Division Matches in various sites across the globe, which is the first rung in their Competition in Arms Program (CIAP). Every Marine shooting for the MTU has won the privilege here first. Marines from across the fleet back then shot stock M16 A2’s with M855 Ball ammo (Green Tip) on the 5V targets.
The local club ran a civilian fun match the weekend before Div match day to give the Marines another chance to practice and to give the civilians the chance to shoot a little different style.
Civilians that showed up naturally brought their Highpower gear; heavy coats, tricked out AR’s and match ammo and shot alongside a handful of Marines shooting cloth coats, stock A2’s (with that crappy burst trigger), M855 and no mats.
Not a fair competition right? To encourage Marine sign ups we were handing out awards in a separate division for “combat rifles”.
But when the dust settled it was two Marines who were at the top. My civ friend Rudy who had just moved in from Oregon was third overall. How did two jar heads shooting with combat gear beat well equipped civilian including a few Master Class shooters?
Part 2 to come later.
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
I’m pretty sure no one uses 55gr fmj at the 200yd line..
I have a story about this...
A while back, I had been hearing about a hard holding WM (Woman Marine) who was shooting summer team and had just won the woman's Service Rifle Championship at Perry the month prior. I naturally thought they were referring to Watson...but I was corrected that it was not Red.
I was to meet GySgt Tamara Fode at the next match. The Marines were shooting M14's for Post and Station Teams, so she brought her personal AR and some store bought ammo. During the course of getting to know her, she showed me her ammo; 55's and 69's. You have to understand that military team shooters just shoot what they're handed. So..shooting without military support was uncharted territory for her.
She asked me if she thought they'd do OK at 600? I told her they weren't ideal, but if she watched her wind calls and was aggressive on the knob, she could do OK. Internally I was thinking "train wreck" and was tempted to give her some of my ammo, but I didn't bring extra that day.
Coming off the 600 yard line, we compared scores...She shot a very respectable aggregate and 'effen cleaned my clock at 600 yards!! I want to say she shot a 194 and beat my 192 in a tough wind...Later I found that she had just fired a 491 in the NTI beating out Watson for the Women's Trophy that year.
Couple yrs back we had a Nasty guard (national guard)show up To a match shooting high power with sling no optics. He pulls out for ammo 62gr green tip he procured from the Arms room. He was the head guy for the guard team, anyhow he shot that stuff at the 600yd line. He ran out of elevation had to adjust front post to get more elevation lol. But he made it work, didn’t shoot a very good score like 130 something like that. Later I told him go buy some of that mag tech ammo loaded with 77 Sierra’s otm. He was like nope I want the guard to buy the black hills mk262 ammo.. I was like uh ok,, well he finally broke down went and bought some of that ammo and holy chit it did make a difference..
Isn't Fleisshacker up your way?...was he not able to get your Guardsman squared away for ammo?
Fliesshacker very rarely shoots anymore. He might show up to the EIC matches and occasional bang and clangs. From my understanding he has kids and he’s busy with them and all their activities now.
Edit- but he will take time to coach if you are interested in going to camp perry.
There’s much about shooting groups on this board but I got an amazing lesson in knowing your rifle/ammo capabilities and keeping things centered up.
The USMC runs the Division Matches in various sites across the globe, which is the first rung in their Competition in Arms Program (CIAP). Every Marine shooting for the MTU has won the privilege here first. Marines from across the fleet back then shot stock M16 A2’s with M855 Ball ammo (Green Tip) on the 5V targets.
The local club ran a civilian fun match the weekend before Div match day to give the Marines another chance to practice and to give the civilians the chance to shoot a little different style.
Civilians that showed up naturally brought their Highpower gear; heavy coats, tricked out AR’s and match ammo and shot alongside a handful of Marines shooting cloth coats, stock A2’s (with that crappy burst trigger, M855 and no mats.
Not a fair competition right? To encourage Marine sign ups we were handing out awards in a separate division for “combat rifles”.
But when the dust settled it was two Marines who were at the top. My civ friend Rudy who had just moved in from Oregon was third overall. How did two jar heads shooting with combat gear beat well equipped civilian including a few Master Class shooters?
Part 2 to come later.
Those marines were actually bsa and his twin brother????
There’s much about shooting groups on this board but I got an amazing lesson in knowing your rifle/ammo capabilities and keeping things centered up.
It usually takes about three matches for me to be comfortable with my zeros when changing scopes/uppers. I shot at Oak Ridge this past weekend.
![[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]](https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/q135/Mike70560/IMG_0082.JPEG)
That is both strings and sighters at 300, 22 shots total. This was my second match with a new upper. It was a good confirmation that my zero was 1/2 minute or so off. (I felt my NPA was slightly right of center). I shot a 195 with 5.
![[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]](https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/q135/Mike70560/IMG_0083.JPEG)
Sunday we shot a Leg match, made the 1/2 minute change, NPA was a little better. 99-2X (I stuck a 9 way out on shot number 8, knew it when I let it go)
Keeping things centered up is important, and difficult.
This is the 300 yard target. The course of fire to start standing, load a magazine with 2 rounds on a closed bolt, targets up, 70 seconds to get in prone position with a sling, no rest, charge the rifle, shoot two rounds, change magazines, shoot eight rounds. The ten ring is 7" diameter, so it is a little over 2 minutes at 300 yards. Tough target with a sling, 4.5 power scope, 4.5 pound trigger, getting in position, mag changes, wind changes, NPA, etc. and in the EIC (Leg) matches you get no sighters.
I won the Leg Match, got a hard leg, only need four to go out.
There’s much about shooting groups on this board but I got an amazing lesson in knowing your rifle/ammo capabilities and keeping things centered up.
It usually takes about three matches for me to be comfortable with my zeros when changing scopes/uppers. I shot at Oak Ridge this past weekend.
That is both strings and sighters at 300, 22 shots total. This was my second match with a new upper. It was a good confirmation that my zero was 1/2 minute or so off. (I felt my NPA was slightly right of center). I shot a 195 with 5.
Sunday we shot a Leg match, made the 1/2 minute change, NPA was a little better. 99-2X (I stuck a 9 way out on shot number 8, knew it when I let it go)
Keeping things centered up is important, and difficult.
This is the 300 yard target. The course of fire to start standing, load a magazine with 2 rounds on a closed bolt, targets up, 70 seconds to get in prone position with a sling, no rest, shoot two rounds, change magazines, shoot eight rounds. The ten ring is 7" diameter, so it is a little over 2 minute angle at 300 yards. Tough target with a sling, 4.5 power scope, 4.5 pound trigger, getting in position, mag changes, wind changes, NPA, etc. and in the EIC (Leg) matches you get no sighters.
I won the Leg Match, got a hard leg, only need four to go out.
What? You mean you don’t shoot that off a bench with a rifle rest and sandbags?? Don’t go confusing bsa with CMP rapid fire rules..
Edit- we had our first mid range match last week, and you could see the rust from the winter in alot of the scores. I didn’t shoot because I had to work.
What? You mean you don’t shoot that off a bench with a rifle rest and sandbags?? Don’t go confusing bsa with CMP rapid fire rules..
I have read in this forum a couple of times about shooting Highpower off sandbags and benches with big scopes etc.
We must be following the wrong rulebook.
What? You mean you don’t shoot that off a bench with a rifle rest and sandbags?? Don’t go confusing bsa with CMP rapid fire rules..
I have read in this forum a couple of times about shooting Highpower off sandbags and benches with big scopes etc.
We must be following the wrong rulebook.
I agree slinging up and shooting rapid fire is a whole different game compared to shooting them off the sandbags. Our club holds reduced yardage matches at 100yds using the appropriate targets. Even at 100yds it’s a chore lol. Especially standing slow fire.
Is Mike70560, aka MikeD one time junior member of the “Nawlins” mafia? ...and is Big Ed’s Pizza still open?
Different Mike.
Big Ed’s Pizza is still open and as busy as ever.
We enjoyed the pizza.
Congrats Mike!
Hope you enjoyed the chase!
Congrats Mike!
Hope you enjoyed the chase!
Thanks, it has been interesting. After over a dozen matches with no points, I got legs in four of my last seven. In those dozen I had several first leathers, some bad luck, and some poor shooting, but I would not have it any other way.
There is a big match the first week of June in Carthage. I hope to go out there. They have a nice short ceremony for those who leg out. If not I will be at Perry in August.
There’s much about shooting groups on this board but I got an amazing lesson in knowing your rifle/ammo capabilities and keeping things centered up.
It usually takes about three matches for me to be comfortable with my zeros when changing scopes/uppers. I shot at Oak Ridge this past weekend.
That is both strings and sighters at 300, 22 shots total. This was my second match with a new upper. It was a good confirmation that my zero was 1/2 minute or so off. (I felt my NPA was slightly right of center). I shot a 195 with 5.
Sunday we shot a Leg match, made the 1/2 minute change, NPA was a little better. 99-2X (I stuck a 9 way out on shot number 8, knew it when I let it go)
Keeping things centered up is important, and difficult.
This is the 300 yard target. The course of fire to start standing, load a magazine with 2 rounds on a closed bolt, targets up, 70 seconds to get in prone position with a sling, no rest, shoot two rounds, change magazines, shoot eight rounds. The ten ring is 7" diameter, so it is a little over 2 minute angle at 300 yards. Tough target with a sling, 4.5 power scope, 4.5 pound trigger, getting in position, mag changes, wind changes, NPA, etc. and in the EIC (Leg) matches you get no sighters.
I won the Leg Match, got a hard leg, only need four to go out.
What? You mean you don’t shoot that off a bench with a rifle rest and sandbags?? Don’t go confusing bsa with CMP rapid fire rules..
Edit- we had our first mid range match last week, and you could see the rust from the winter in alot of the scores. I didn’t shoot because I had to work.
When you figure out shooting is shooting, you'll be one step ahead of the game. As of right now, none of you cowboys have posted up any (let alone sub moa or moa) targets for the events started here in this forum. 79s tried, but nothing was even MOA, so he gave up. At least Rost had balls enough to shoot irons and post up a good score. Like I said, its all talk, unless you want to prove it. You are more than welcome to shoot those targets. Just sayin. Excuses are like azzholes too, "everyone has one".
bsa1917hunter,
Sorry there was a bit of jabs directed toward you following my post. That was certainly not the intent of my post. It was rather letting the score shooters know that with a skilled driver that understands how to center up and understand shot dispersion, even 55's and 62's can do more that what many think.
I've been around long enough to understand that folks have different reasons for shooting. You clearly like to wring out your rifle and ammo off the bench. Good for you for finding what you want out of your shooting. I was there at one time and wanted nothing more than to shoot little bitty groups. After a long while of chasing that down, I decided that I wanted more...Thanks to some team shooters, I was sold on position shooting with a sling as my next challenge. And challenge it was/is because I have terrible eyes. As difficult as it's been, I am strangely fulfilled when I succeed because of the depth of the hole that I started in. I was discussing with a friend what motivated us to compete and why many folk don't want to (not a jab pointed at you for the record). One reason we felt more folks didn't compete in highpower was the fear of public humbling. Your scores are tabulated, and your successes and failures are distributed very publicly (especially now a days in the internet era). Believe it or not...I like that.
Funny story (at my expense). One year competing at Camp Perry in the Presidents Match, I shot a good score at 200 Standing and a good score at 300 Prone Rapid. Unbeknownst to me, the CMP was updating the scores on their site in real time, so my friends back home were well aware of where I was in the ranking (better than I even, because I only knew my score but not everyone else's). Each of the 1500 or so competitors were vying to be one of the top 100 shooters to be part of the Presidents 100 and I apparently was well in the running after two of the three stages. Well, after the first 5 shots at 600, I was still in the running until I cross fired. I put a round on someone else's target which scores a big fat ZERO. Needless to say, I didn't make the Presidents 100 that year....and I caught a lot of grief when I got home. So much for my private misery... But you know, I'm still good with putting my scores on the big stage out there because my wins (as small as they may be) are similarly public.
I don't shoot for groups a whole lot anymore. The group bug has left me and shooting groups is just a means to an end for me. The end is a load that scores well for 22 shots after 66 shots were fired previously. I'll screen with 5 shot groups, then I'll test the promising ones with a couple of 10 round groups then I'll shoot a 20 round group before I take it to full distance at a practice match to make a final determination.
For the record I do shoot 3 shot groups with my hunting rifles...with a twist. I keep a composite target in my travel pelican and that 3 shoot group needs to stack on top of the previous 3 shot groups because I value stability of zero over a bug hole shooting rifle that put's em in a slightly different place each time.
...and just for fun's sake, I'll see if I can dig up some groups to share with ya'll.
Here we go.
Group 1; 10 shots@50 yards, Federal GMM 22LR (rumored to be manufactured by RWS). Rifle: CLE AR 22 Conversion. Shot off the bench, through the irons.
I feel like the autoloading was an advantage because our range is notoriously windy with unpredictable gusts. There's been a few national level smallbore shooters who have vowed never to return because the wind brought them to their knees. With the AR22, I would wait for a condition and pump the rounds out as long as my condition was there. Clearly I got caught a little on a let off and a lot on a gust. I can read wind...but I can't predict the future.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/vFuIM8m.jpg)
Group 2; 10 shots@50 yards, RWS R10 22LR (real RWS Match ammo shot as a comparison) Rifle; Same CLE AR 22 (Dogless barrel for Jeff's sake) , Bench and Irons.
Apologies for the poor pic...phone didn't focus too well up close;
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/QgU1peq.jpg)
Group 3;
This sheet is me testing pellets for the junior rifle team I coach. Each group is 10 shots off the bench at 10M (33ft). I'm pretty sure McKenzie shot Lot 652 because I only write down the lot that tested out best on the target that I give to the shooter.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/M15Nb5H.jpg)
There’s much about shooting groups on this board but I got an amazing lesson in knowing your rifle/ammo capabilities and keeping things centered up.
It usually takes about three matches for me to be comfortable with my zeros when changing scopes/uppers. I shot at Oak Ridge this past weekend.
That is both strings and sighters at 300, 22 shots total. This was my second match with a new upper. It was a good confirmation that my zero was 1/2 minute or so off. (I felt my NPA was slightly right of center). I shot a 195 with 5.
Sunday we shot a Leg match, made the 1/2 minute change, NPA was a little better. 99-2X (I stuck a 9 way out on shot number 8, knew it when I let it go)
Keeping things centered up is important, and difficult.
This is the 300 yard target. The course of fire to start standing, load a magazine with 2 rounds on a closed bolt, targets up, 70 seconds to get in prone position with a sling, no rest, shoot two rounds, change magazines, shoot eight rounds. The ten ring is 7" diameter, so it is a little over 2 minute angle at 300 yards. Tough target with a sling, 4.5 power scope, 4.5 pound trigger, getting in position, mag changes, wind changes, NPA, etc. and in the EIC (Leg) matches you get no sighters.
I won the Leg Match, got a hard leg, only need four to go out.
What? You mean you don’t shoot that off a bench with a rifle rest and sandbags?? Don’t go confusing bsa with CMP rapid fire rules..
Edit- we had our first mid range match last week, and you could see the rust from the winter in alot of the scores. I didn’t shoot because I had to work.
When you figure out shooting is shooting, you'll be one step ahead of the game. As of right now, none of you cowboys have posted up any (let alone sub moa or moa) targets for the events started here in this forum. 79s tried, but nothing was even MOA, so he gave up. At least Rost had balls enough to shoot irons and post up a good score. Like I said, its all talk, unless you want to prove it. You are more than welcome to shoot those targets. Just sayin. Excuses are like azzholes too, "everyone has one".
lol.. oh boy.. you are still an alright fella.. you need a women and some firewater.
bsa1917hunter,
Sorry there was a bit of jabs directed toward you following my post. That was certainly not the intent of my post. It was rather letting the score shooters know that with a skilled driver that understands how to center up and understand shot dispersion, even 55's and 62's can do more that what many think.
I've been around long enough to understand that folks have different reasons for shooting. You clearly like to wring out your rifle and ammo off the bench. Good for you for finding what you want out of your shooting. I was there at one time and wanted nothing more than to shoot little bitty groups. After a long while of chasing that down, I decided that I wanted more...Thanks to some team shooters, I was sold on position shooting with a sling as my next challenge. And challenge it was/is because I have terrible eyes. As difficult as it's been, I am strangely fulfilled when I succeed because of the depth of the hole that I started in. I was discussing with a friend what motivated us to compete and why many folk don't want to (not a jab pointed at you for the record). One reason we felt more folks didn't compete in highpower was the fear of public humbling. Your scores are tabulated, and your successes and failures are distributed very publicly (especially now a days in the internet era). Believe it or not...I like that.
Funny story (at my expense). One year competing at Camp Perry in the Presidents Match, I shot a good score at 200 Standing and a good score at 300 Prone Rapid. Unbeknownst to me, the CMP was updating the scores on their site in real time, so my friends back home were well aware of where I was in the ranking (better than I even, because I only knew my score but not everyone else's). Each of the 1500 or so competitors were vying to be one of the top 100 shooters to be part of the Presidents 100 and I apparently was well in the running after two of the three stages. Well, after the first 10 shots at 600, I was still in the running until I cross fired. I put a round on someone else's target which scores a big fat ZERO. Needless to say, I didn't make the Presidents 100 that year....and I caught a lot of grief when I got home. So much for my private misery... But you know, I'm still good with putting my scores on the big stage out there because my wins (as small as they may be) are similarly public.
I don't shoot for groups a whole lot anymore. The group bug has left me and shooting groups is just a means to an end for me. The end is a load that scores well for 22 shots after 66 shots were fired previously. I'll screen with 5 shot groups, then I'll test the promising ones with a couple of 10 round groups then I'll shoot a 20 round group before I take it to full distance at a practice match to make a final determination.
For the record I do shoot 3 shot groups with my hunting rifles...with a twist. I keep a composite target in my travel pelican and that 3 shoot group needs to stack on top of the previous 3 shot groups because I value stability of zero over a bug hole shooting rifle that put's em in a slightly different place each time.
...and just for fun's sake, I'll see if I can dig up some groups to share with ya'll.
I need to get more serious with service rifle. I really want to go to camp perry before I get to damn old. I really want to shoot the garand match their as well.
bsa1917hunter,
I see you're in Oregon...there were a couple of National Guard shooters that I believe were from Oregon...Allen Spiker and Nelson Shew. Would you have run across them?
It's been interesting reading everyone's posts. My Bushy was $600 at time of purchase, & my PSA was $350 total. This is not including optics. What type rifles, component, & optics, or irons are you folks using?
It's been interesting reading everyone's posts. My Bushy was $600 at time of purchase, & my PSA was $350 total. This is not including optics. What type rifles, component, & optics, or irons are you folks using?
Lower:
Aero Precision (right hand)
White Oak Parts kit
Magpul UBR-1 Stock
Geissele HighSpeed National Match Trigger
Stock A1 pistol grip
Upper:
Either RedX or Stag Left Hand receiver
Shilen barrel 1-7.5 or Bartlein 1-7
Geissele MK 7 Quad Rail
Optics:
Geissele Super Precision mount
March 1 to 4.5 scope with MTR D3 reticle
Or
Leupold FX 4.5HD Service Rifle scope
And a Leather sling from Eric Hollis
All in around $3800 each set up.
When you figure out shooting is shooting, you'll be one step ahead of the game. As of right now, none of you cowboys have posted up any (let alone sub moa or moa) targets for the events started here in this forum. 79s tried, but nothing was even MOA, so he gave up. At least Rost had balls enough to shoot irons and post up a good score. Like I said, its all talk, unless you want to prove it. You are more than welcome to shoot those targets. Just sayin. Excuses are like azzholes too, "everyone has one".
Barrel life is around 4000 rounds and if I shoot 10 of those rounds off the bench I would be surprised. Shooting off a rest at 100 yards tells me nothing. It does not help anything I do. Even though my rifles are sub minute I do not care if it shoots 3/8 minute or 5/8 minute. My time is much better spent working on position, learning to read the wind better, etc.
For [bleep] and giggle I posted this. Shot in prone off a sling. Two targets, 100 yards, picture of my gear.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...lack-rifle-challenge-thread#Post14611943And this one 16 shots, all the ammo I had left. Shot in prone with a sling. 1.33 moa.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...lack-rifle-challenge-thread#Post12959243For all you bench cowboys, sling up, get on the ground or even better on your feet with no sling, and see what shooting is all about.
At least the FClass guys have to be on the ground and shoot at least 600 yards.
Nice looking setup. Does it balance well, or is it front heavy?
It balances just forward of the mag well. I have lead in the compartment in the stock and in the quad rail.
Weighs around 14 to 15 pounds. It is definitely not a run and gun rifle.
I was waiting for all the non-HP shooters to put up HP scores!
I was waiting for all the non-HP shooters to put up HP scores!
I always find it funny that HP cowgirls are so closed minded that they have to jump in and tell everyone else how good they are.
Everyone has their idea of what fun is, mine is shooting plates as fast as I can, could care less how big my "groups" are as long as the plates are ringing. But I like to shoot most anything. I've done my share of chasing the sub MOA groups, even shoot sometimes offhand in different positions, never tried a coat or a real sling. It's all good.
I was waiting for all the non-HP shooters to put up HP scores!
I always find it funny that HP cowgirls are so closed minded that they have to jump in and tell everyone else how good they are.
Everyone has their idea of what fun is, mine is shooting plates as fast as I can, could care less how big my "groups" are as long as the plates are ringing. But I like to shoot most anything. I've done my share of chasing the sub MOA groups, even shoot sometimes offhand in different positions, never tried a coat or a real sling. It's all good.
It is because we are the only true rifleman left in this world.
Seriously, I cant shoot a pistol very well and am not that good on the bench, but I do love shooting XTC high power.
If you think HP shooters are bad, never ask an old Bullseye Pistol shooter what he thinks about shooting steel.
ChrisF--I enjoyed your P100 story. Back about 25 or so years ago, we had a HP HM here in Michigan named Butch. He had a crossfire in the P100 and still made it. IIRC--if it had been a 9 or 10 on his target, he would've either won it or been top 3. The man could hold. He used to wear what was known as his "heavy hat". It was an MRPA hat with his 8 or 9 P100 pins, his Distinguished pin and his 495 pin. Nice and humble, too.
I always find it funny that HP cowgirls are so closed minded that they have to jump in and tell everyone else how good they are.
I think as a competitor, you have to have a certain amount of striving and need to be on top. Sometimes that leaks into conversations. For the record, I thought I was actually airing my failings. The others were sharing their strivings and process for getting there.
I'll say it again, if you enjoy a certain type of shooting - good for you. I even enjoy hearing about the different types. I'm not a "bang and clang" (term I just learned) shooter...but I suppose I was one as a kid because I begged my welder uncle to make me a T1 steel plate target. That was fun in a binary sense...you either hit it (clang...actually "whack") or you get silence.
UPhiker. Great story.
Uphiker,
Guys like Butch are remarkable shooters, it is difficult to make the P100 once or twice much less multiple times. Since the match is only held once a year there is a lot of pressure to make that one chance count. Add in the fact the you shoot against all of the military team shooters, well you get the picture. Problem is now the cut is around 289 or 290. If you crossfire you are out. I shot the P100 in 2018, with a 99-5X at 600, 98-3X at 300, but those scores were easy because I blew my offhand, there was no pressure. Headed back in August for my fourth attempt.
I was waiting for all the non-HP shooters to put up HP scores!
Chit my hp scores are horrible, granted I’m getting better I’m in the middle of the pack these days. When I started I was at the bottom.
I always find it funny that HP cowgirls are so closed minded that they have to jump in and tell everyone else how good they are.
I think as a competitor, you have to have a certain amount of striving and need to be on top. Sometimes that leaks into conversations. For the record, I thought I was actually airing my failings. The others were sharing their strivings and process for getting there.
I'll say it again, if you enjoy a certain type of shooting - good for you. I even enjoy hearing about the different types. I'm not a "bang and clang" (term I just learned) shooter...but I suppose I was one as a kid because I begged my welder uncle to make me a T1 steel plate target. That was fun in a binary sense...you either hit it (clang...actually "whack") or you get silence.
UPhiker. Great story.
Our bang and clangs are shot out to 200 meters with rams as our 200 meter targets. We use cast bullets, guys like Ron shoot it because it’s all off hand shooting. No benches, shooting sticks etc.
I was waiting for all the non-HP shooters to put up HP scores!
I always find it funny that HP cowgirls are so closed minded that they have to jump in and tell everyone else how good they are.
Everyone has their idea of what fun is, mine is shooting plates as fast as I can, could care less how big my "groups" are as long as the plates are ringing. But I like to shoot most anything. I've done my share of chasing the sub MOA groups, even shoot sometimes offhand in different positions, never tried a coat or a real sling. It's all good.
Gees sorry steel plate ninja..
Uphiker,
Guys like Butch are remarkable shooters, it is difficult to make the P100 once or twice much less multiple times. Since the match is only held once a year there is a lot of pressure to make that one chance count. Add in the fact the you shoot against all of the military team shooters, well you get the picture. Problem is now the cut is around 289 or 290. If you crossfire you are out. I shot the P100 in 2018, with a 99-5X at 600, 98-3X at 300, but those scores were easy because I blew my offhand, there was no pressure. Headed back in August for my fourth attempt.
Yeah, that was back in the M14/iron sights era.
What I find funny is that the better shot you became, the more you realized how much more you had to learn, because you were constantly being squadded with the best shots in the country. I finished in 2000 as a middling expert but our club team finished in the upper third in Rattle Battle. I always enjoyed that. 2001, I got my shoulder ruined in a car accident and never shot competitively again.
LOL, just rattling the cage from the inside, I can't shoot offhand or from a bench so I just have fun.
Now that we've settled that, what next? Get out the rulers? ( I mean yardstick for me)
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/Jh1KT8Yj/3-A265-DE0-2-B41-4-FE9-A7-B8-4-D5894-AD915-D.jpg)
This is an older pic of one of our timed drills. Shoot 5 rounds standing 5 rounds kneeling and 5 rounds prone. Par time was 1 minute with most of the time spent getting into positions. My gun was a Colt 6720, that’s a 16” chrome lined pencil barrel with an EOTech EXPS2-0 if I remember right. Ammo was IMI M193, distance was 200 yards. Change a mag between positions and make gun safe before moving. Just messing around doing something besides shooting off the bench.
You HP guys nervous yet? LOL.
I see we need a yardstick to measure yours too!
Better just bring a tape...
...
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I have preached this shidt forever. Many hearing it get the 500 yard stare and start saying "But..but...Youtube..."
If they haven't started slobbering yet, I explain the .mil zeroing regimen was carefully worked out with with rifles, ammunition and sights all held to strict government standards. Change any component and it all goes out the window. That's why the zeroing and sight adjustment protocols are different for the M16 than the M4. You've changed the barrel length, sight radius and terminal velocity and everything related to zeroing changes with that.
AR's today, with widely disparate sighting and ammo combinations, have rendered it about useless. Regardless of the rifle type, I work hard to get a perfect 200 yard zero from the bench and then I haul the damn thing off the range. From then on I shoot from field positions (offhand, sitting, field expedient rests) which tells me what I can do with that rifle out to the farthest distance I might need to use it. If the results don't suit me, I know the problem is me. So I bust my ass and work harder to improve.