I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. With 62 grain fusion going between 2530 and 2731 in a 10 or 14.5 inch barrel, and 77 grain going 2420 to 2575 from 10 to 14.5 barrel, its a long way from the 20 inch 55 grain 3300 fps we started with a bunch of years ago. Quite frankly the 55 at 3300 from a 20 seemed to be fairly effective as far as I can find. Why did we shorten the barrel to 14.5 inches, and start shooting heavier bullets? One wonders if a 55 grain gold dot from a 20 inch barrel would be more effective than a 77 grain MK from a 14.5 inch barrel out to 2-300 yards?
I've found about a 300 fps difference in muzzle velocity between a 16" Colt barrel and a 23. 5" CZ (bolt-action ) barrel with most loads. I've never seen close to 3300 fps with 55 grain bullets form a 20" barrel, but perhaps it's possible.
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. With 62 grain fusion going between 2530 and 2731 in a 10 or 14.5 inch barrel, and 77 grain going 2420 to 2575 from 10 to 14.5 barrel, its a long way from the 20 inch 55 grain 3300 fps we started with a bunch of years ago. Quite frankly the 55 at 3300 from a 20 seemed to be fairly effective as far as I can find. Why did we shorten the barrel to 14.5 inches, and start shooting heavier bullets? One wonders if a 55 grain gold dot from a 20 inch barrel would be more effective than a 77 grain MK from a 14.5 inch barrel out to 2-300 yards?
Everything is "more effective" out of a 20. Hopefully that answers your question
Ya I'm thinking 3200ish. I'm getting just over 3100 in my 16" barrels, got 3000 in my 14.5's.
I need to get another 20" barrel one day and see if it made that much difference. I don't remember coyotes dying any deader but it'll be fun finding out again.
I remember Formidilousis liked this bullet. Federal Fusion MSR 62gr Ballistic Co-efficient .315 (G1) The Chopping Block tested this ammo and got about 190% expansion (.384") @ 1700fps.
there is some oddness in that some of the 55s dont seem to be a fast as the heavier bullets, but in general it looks like that 12.5 is a good length for a pistol, wish he had some 16 and 20 inch barrel comparisons.
It makes me convulse in laughter mostly. I just don't get it. Basic platform for the 5.56 many moons ago was a nimble killer out to 300+ meters. They worked fine up close and personal as well. Once they got the bugs fixed it was reliable, light weight and low maintenance. We carried pistols to do a pistol's work. Way I see it something not broke was fixed in a curious way. To be clear, I'm not talking about military weapons, though I'd not want an M4 for a field weapon in the Mideast, it might be the schizzle for CQ, house to house stuff. I'm looking at the civilian offshoots.
The weapon firing 55 grains at 3290 FPS in FMJ form with cannelure, at 1-200 yards has been shown to be effective, so we shorten the barrel, probably increase the weight of the gun, and now look for special bullets at 2500 FPS to do about the same thing. The 10-12 inch pistols etc look pretty cool so you got that going for you, OTOH a pencil barreled 16-20 inch gun firing M193 55’s at 3100-3200 probably is as good or better than a 12.5 shooting 75 hornadys at 2300 from a 12.5. The emperors new clothes. I guess the army has to spend money.
So far I've refrained from buying a pistol AR, or SBR. Shot next to one at an indoor range a few months ago and it was one god-awful loud beast. One of those cup-style flash hiders that direct the blast forward might be worthwhile.
I kind of like the idea of a short AR for a house/vehicle gun, but it may be a .300 BO instead.
The weapon firing 55 grains at 3290 FPS in FMJ form with cannelure, at 1-200 yards has been shown to be effective, so we shorten the barrel, probably increase the weight of the gun, and now look for special bullets at 2500 FPS to do about the same thing. The 10-12 inch pistols etc look pretty cool so you got that going for you, OTOH a pencil barreled 16-20 inch gun firing M193 55’s at 3100-3200 probably is as good or better than a 12.5 shooting 75 hornadys at 2300 from a 12.5. The emperors new clothes. I guess the army has to spend money.
The solution for a short barrel is not a heavier bullet.
I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities
I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities
Not everyone.
I seldom shoot anything heavier then 64 grains. Most of what I shoot is between 52 and 62 grains.
For me though, 10.5" is as short as I'll go in 5.56.
52's are still pretty respectable out of a 10.5" barrel:
Code
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 52, Nosler CC HPBT 53294
Useable Case Capaci: 26.481 grain H2O = 1.719 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 10.5 inch = 266.7 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748 105.9 27.8 1.80 2816 88.4 61500 18757 0.560 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 aka H322 100.7 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 107.1 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 104.7 24.1 1.56 2808 96.5 61500 18139 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 77.9 20.4 1.32 2803 99.7 61500 17346 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 aka H4198 99.0 22.6 1.46 2802 99.5 61500 17291 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 103.7 22.7 1.47 2799 97.7 61500 17144 0.554 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 100.7 26.8 1.74 2797 91.2 61500 18238 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 100.6 24.0 1.56 2793 97.3 61500 18014 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 107.5 25.1 1.63 2786 95.6 61500 17821 0.575 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 86.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 88.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 108.0 25.5 1.65 2783 96.7 56241 18547 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 108.0 28.8 1.86 2780 86.4 60293 18550 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 106.3 26.1 1.69 2780 87.6 61500 17984 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 106.2 26.4 1.71 2776 92.9 61500 17599 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 101.6 22.6 1.47 2774 99.9 61500 16303 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 93.9 21.0 1.36 2773 99.4 61500 16287 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 96.0 21.8 1.41 2772 99.9 61500 16297 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 97.8 23.1 1.50 2770 97.3 61500 17117 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 108.0 28.2 1.83 2765 84.6 60731 18018 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 103.9 27.3 1.77 2764 88.9 61500 17940 0.578 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 90.0 22.9 1.49 2764 94.5 61500 17000 0.561 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 82.8 21.1 1.37 2764 97.8 61500 16404 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 107.0 24.4 1.58 2761 96.4 61500 16963 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 93.1 20.8 1.35 2758 98.9 61500 16082 0.555 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 97.9 24.3 1.57 2758 90.6 61500 17223 0.562 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 102.2 26.7 1.73 2757 88.8 61500 17624 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 108.0 27.8 1.80 2755 88.8 58397 18389 0.585 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 100.7 25.4 1.65 2753 89.1 61500 17316 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 108.0 26.4 1.71 2750 87.1 60208 17650 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H110 79.2 20.8 1.34 2750 100.0 61500 15857 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 99.4 22.8 1.48 2749 93.1 61500 16615 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 102.9 27.2 1.76 2744 86.4 61500 17382 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 aka Benchmark 98.5 25.6 1.66 2744 89.2 61500 17153 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 107.0 25.7 1.67 2742 89.0 61500 17126 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 78.0 19.8 1.28 2742 100.0 61500 15151 0.577 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 101.0 26.3 1.70 2734 87.0 61500 16953 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 104.7 27.3 1.77 2733 85.2 61500 17213 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 107.0 28.2 1.83 2723 80.9 61500 17135 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400 75.2 17.4 1.13 2721 100.0 61500 14416 0.559 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110 *C 89.4 18.5 1.20 2709 100.0 61500 14226 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 108.0 26.4 1.71 2706 84.4 56429 17817 0.591 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4100 76.5 19.3 1.25 2706 100.0 61500 14349 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
For me though, 10.5" is as short as I'll go in 5.56.
52's are still pretty respectable out of a 10.5" barrel:
Code
Cartridge : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet : .224, 52, Nosler CC HPBT 53294
Useable Case Capaci: 26.481 grain H2O = 1.719 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 10.5 inch = 266.7 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748 105.9 27.8 1.80 2816 88.4 61500 18757 0.560 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 aka H322 100.7 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 107.1 25.4 1.64 2815 92.8 61500 18290 0.558 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 104.7 24.1 1.56 2808 96.5 61500 18139 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 77.9 20.4 1.32 2803 99.7 61500 17346 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 aka H4198 99.0 22.6 1.46 2802 99.5 61500 17291 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 103.7 22.7 1.47 2799 97.7 61500 17144 0.554 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 100.7 26.8 1.74 2797 91.2 61500 18238 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 100.6 24.0 1.56 2793 97.3 61500 18014 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 107.5 25.1 1.63 2786 95.6 61500 17821 0.575 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 86.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 88.2 20.1 1.30 2785 97.7 61500 16983 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 108.0 25.5 1.65 2783 96.7 56241 18547 0.583 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 108.0 28.8 1.86 2780 86.4 60293 18550 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 106.3 26.1 1.69 2780 87.6 61500 17984 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 106.2 26.4 1.71 2776 92.9 61500 17599 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 101.6 22.6 1.47 2774 99.9 61500 16303 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 93.9 21.0 1.36 2773 99.4 61500 16287 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 96.0 21.8 1.41 2772 99.9 61500 16297 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 97.8 23.1 1.50 2770 97.3 61500 17117 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 108.0 28.2 1.83 2765 84.6 60731 18018 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 103.9 27.3 1.77 2764 88.9 61500 17940 0.578 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 90.0 22.9 1.49 2764 94.5 61500 17000 0.561 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Blackout 82.8 21.1 1.37 2764 97.8 61500 16404 0.553 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 107.0 24.4 1.58 2761 96.4 61500 16963 0.568 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 93.1 20.8 1.35 2758 98.9 61500 16082 0.555 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 97.9 24.3 1.57 2758 90.6 61500 17223 0.562 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 102.2 26.7 1.73 2757 88.8 61500 17624 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 108.0 27.8 1.80 2755 88.8 58397 18389 0.585 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 100.7 25.4 1.65 2753 89.1 61500 17316 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 108.0 26.4 1.71 2750 87.1 60208 17650 0.570 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H110 79.2 20.8 1.34 2750 100.0 61500 15857 0.573 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 99.4 22.8 1.48 2749 93.1 61500 16615 0.556 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 102.9 27.2 1.76 2744 86.4 61500 17382 0.571 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 aka Benchmark 98.5 25.6 1.66 2744 89.2 61500 17153 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 107.0 25.7 1.67 2742 89.0 61500 17126 0.565 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 78.0 19.8 1.28 2742 100.0 61500 15151 0.577 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 101.0 26.3 1.70 2734 87.0 61500 16953 0.564 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 104.7 27.3 1.77 2733 85.2 61500 17213 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 107.0 28.2 1.83 2723 80.9 61500 17135 0.566 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400 75.2 17.4 1.13 2721 100.0 61500 14416 0.559 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110 *C 89.4 18.5 1.20 2709 100.0 61500 14226 0.567 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 108.0 26.4 1.71 2706 84.4 56429 17817 0.591 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4100 76.5 19.3 1.25 2706 100.0 61500 14349 0.563 ! Near Maximum !
Yeah that's not bad, breaking 2800.
Even the 75/77s will easily break 2400, and still be in the 1800-1900 fps and 600 ft-lbs range at 300 yards.
With the 10.5, I zero at 40 yards, giving a 200+ point blank range +/- 2", and about 12" low at 300. I'd imagine the 52-55gr stuff at 2800 would a bit flatter to 300.
I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities
Long range shooters started shooting the heavier high BC bullets and the military started using open tip match bullets to get better lethal performance than ball ammo.
The high velocity 55 grain fmj ammo that some say was so deadly has just as many people saying how inefficient it was. In fact, studies show it's (M193) marginal at best. It can yaw and break apart causing lots of damage or it can pencil right on through. The 62 grain ammo was brought out to increase effectiveness on body armor at 300 meters and suffers the same problems as any FMJ ammo does.
For our uses, I'd much rather have a 55 grain NBT or TSX but I've killed enough stuff with the 77 grain OTM bullets to have them loaded in my home defense mags.
Long range shooters started shooting the heavier high BC bullets and the military started using open tip match bullets to get better lethal performance than ball ammo.
Yep, there's a reason that the various SOG groups who get to choose their ammo, generally use 77 gr OTM bullets.
Surely nothing wrong with heavier tipped bullets, TSX's, various bonded bullets, Gold Dots, etc., either.................and IMHO, all of those are better choices that 55 gr FMJ of improved & more consistent performance.
So for the 55's, M193 they sure are hell on jackrabbits out to 100 yards from a 20 inch gun, my personal experience is that I have not seen a single rabbit where the bullet penciled through. Does anyone know if the M193 was more barrier blind than the heavier match bullets?
Personally, I wouldn't want anything under 14" without a suppressor.
I've shot some shorty AKs, unsuppressed short 5.56 ARs and had a 16" 308 with a noise-maker on the muzzle. They were my idea of hell to shoot. I might as well have driven nails into my ears.
So for the 55's, M193 they sure are hell on jackrabbits out to 100 yards from a 20 inch gun, my personal experience is that I have not seen a single rabbit where the bullet penciled through. Does anyone know if the M193 was more barrier blind than the heavier match bullets?
A jackrabbit is small enough that the temporary stretch cavity is larger than it is. Of course high velocity pops them.
First, rifle rounds produce rifle wounds. However, having put my hands inside of wounds created by M193 and the ilk, M193 is not impressive compared to other projectiles. There’s as much nonsense and myth around 20”/55gr as there is for 7.62x39mm. If ether hits bone, wounds can be graphic. But just as often they are mostly through and through without anything dramatic.
M193 in this day and age is a garbage projectile for use against humans. Yes it will kill them, however there are dozens of better, more reliable, more consistent performers. As far as being barrier blind, both M193 and MK262 suffer greatly through barriers. I.E..- they both suck.
As for barrel length- fighting has a lot more than just “velocity and bullet”. Some believe that fighting and tactics haven’t achanged in 50 years.... Size and weight matter. But, people also seem to think that the military is still stuck in 2004 where it was between M855 and MK262. In that case, yes MK262 was better. But it isn’t 2004 anymore. The currently issued standard round for the US military is extremely effective in tissue. It has precision issues (like M193 and M855), but Terminal performance even out of 10.5” guns is excellent. You can’t tell the difference inside of 300m between A1 from a 10.5” and A1 from a 20” barrel.
Out of the 12.5” barrels on my carbines, full fragmentation of M855A1 is achieved past past 500m at SAC. What would carrying a musket do for me?
Personally, I wouldn't want anything under 14" without a suppressor.
I've shot some shorty AKs, unsuppressed short 5.56 ARs and had a 16" 308 with a noise-maker on the muzzle. They were my idea of hell to shoot. I might as well have driven nails into my ears.
I agree with you. Hence the reason I shoot rifle length gas systems and 20" barrels. Anything else makes me feel like my noodle is getting knocked loose. It even takes my eyes a while to adjust after shooting crapbines. Just don't prefer them...
If you track down the guys in Montana Marine's pics and asked them how they liked their short barreled carbines, they'd say "WHAT?" "Speak up and look at me!". Ears are shot...
Carried a CAR-15 for a bit during my last tour in Nam (see the old pics above). They were cute and all that, but I preferred the M16. Recollection is that all the Sneaky Pete wankers carried the CAR, but they were operating in close cover for the most part. I wasn't.
Was the Range Safety Officer at our local gun club range, open to the public, yesterday. Lots of people with AR pistols. Had to wear double ear protection (plugs and muffs). It was LOUD out there.
So for the 55's, M193 they sure are hell on jackrabbits out to 100 yards from a 20 inch gun, my personal experience is that I have not seen a single rabbit where the bullet penciled through. Does anyone know if the M193 was more barrier blind than the heavier match bullets?
A jackrabbit is small enough that the temporary stretch cavity is larger than it is. Of course high velocity pops them.
First, rifle rounds produce rifle wounds. However, having put my hands inside of wounds created by M193 and the ilk, M193 is not impressive compared to other projectiles. There’s as much nonsense and myth around 20”/55gr as there is for 7.62x39mm. If ether hits bone, wounds can be graphic. But just as often they are mostly through and through without anything dramatic.
M193 in this day and age is a garbage projectile for use against humans. Yes it will kill them, however there are dozens of better, more reliable, more consistent performers. As far as being barrier blind, both M193 and MK262 suffer greatly through barriers. I.E..- they both suck.
As for barrel length- fighting has a lot more than just “velocity and bullet”. Some believe that fighting and tactics haven’t achanged in 50 years.... Size and weight matter. But, people also seem to think that the military is still stuck in 2004 where it was between M855 and MK262. In that case, yes MK262 was better. But it isn’t 2004 anymore. The currently issued standard round for the US military is extremely effective in tissue. It has precision issues (like M193 and M855), but Terminal performance even out of 10.5” guns is excellent. You can’t tell the difference inside of 300m between A1 from a 10.5” and A1 from a 20” barrel.
Out of the 12.5” barrels on my carbines, full fragmentation of M855A1 is achieved past past 500m at SAC. What would carrying a musket do for me?
Formidilosus, once again, thank your for your contribution.
In other words, it's like taking a Nosler E-tip or a TTSX, and replacing the plastic insert with a hardened steel penetration twice the size of the one in the original M855.
That's quite a combination. Hopefully they can get the accuracy issues under control:
Short barreled AR's have been around since the 60's. Their purpose is lighter weight/convenience. End users should try and match barrel twist and projectile accordingly.
Yes they will hurt your ears if you have to shoot a threat without hearing protection.
So will a 4" 29-2. And a J-frame in .357. And a Shield in .40 S&W....
Formidilosus, once again, thank your for your contribution.
In other words, it's like taking a Nosler E-tip or a TTSX, and replacing the plastic insert with a hardened steel penetration twice the size of the one in the original M855.
That's quite a combination. Hopefully they can get the accuracy issues under control:
The M855A1 projectile is actually kind of unique. It is a three part projectile- a copper jacket, a solid copper plug in the base, and a steel arrowhead tip. Because of the combination of those three parts, it produces rapid and immediate fragmentation of the jacket, the tip separates and causes a secondary wound path, and the solid copper plug penetrates an average of 16-20 inches depending on barrier.
Unfortunately they will do nothing about the precision. The allowable MR for ball ammo has been abysmal since M193. There is a barrel/upper combo that shoots it significantly better, but the broad US military will not adapt anything new for M4’s.
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
….Out of the 12.5” barrels on my carbines, full fragmentation of M855A1 is achieved past past 500m at SAC. What would carrying a musket do for me?
Keep rockin' that musketoon then...….grin
The Marines using the M27 with suppressor.... whoof. That’s a musket.
Originally Posted by jimmyp
another thought, not sure I as a peon can buy A1. What I wonder is the next best thing?
M855A1 is not commercially available. Anything out there is take home from someone’s pocket.
As for the next best thing, I wouldn’t say A1 is the best thing. It is certainly effective, but from a soft tissue perspective there are better. Probably the best general purpose 0-600m, barrier blind 5.56mm bullet is the 75gr Gold Dot. Near match accurate (sub 2moa for 30 round groups), truly barrier blind, decent BC, and has some level of upset below 1,600fps impact. From a soft tissue and light barrier perspective, the 77gr TMK was designed to maximize performance in that realm amd is extremely capable at it.
It's not just about the weight of the bullet, but how it's made. When we switched to widespread use of SBRs we moved to the 75grain Gold Dot because it was what would reliably expand at lower velocities. The lighter bullets are made to be pushed fast and hold together at those speeds.
It's not just about the weight of the bullet, but how it's made. When we switched to widespread use of SBRs we moved to the 75grain Gold Dot because it was what would reliably expand at lower velocities. The lighter bullets are made to be pushed fast and hold together at those speeds.
Blue,
Do you have any info comparing the GD's performance to a Hornady 75 BTHP or a Sierra 77 SMK or a TMK? Either in gel or some other test?
It's not just about the weight of the bullet, but how it's made. When we switched to widespread use of SBRs we moved to the 75grain Gold Dot because it was what would reliably expand at lower velocities. The lighter bullets are made to be pushed fast and hold together at those speeds.
Blue,
Do you have any info comparing the GD's performance to a Hornady 75 BTHP or a Sierra 77 SMK or a TMK? Either in gel or some other test?
Thanks.
MM
75gr gold dot from 10.5" and 20" barrels in gel, and through a windshield into gel.
That looks like pretty good performance............pretty significant difference in the violence of the impact of the gel block between the 20" barrel & the shorter version, even though the overall wound channel was that much different.
I'll have to go & try to dig up some gel test on the Hornady 75 & the SMK's for comparison.
Thanks, AS. I'll have to go & try to dig up some gel test on the Hornady 75 & the SMK's for comparison.
MM
I already posted them above.
The 77gr Sierra TMK and 62gr bonded bear claws are pretty impressive as well.
Bottom line is , regardless of what the narrator in the video says, they would all be highly effective as home defense loads.
For environments where low penetration is desired, such as dense dwelling environments, check out the 55gr Sierra Blitz kings are pretty wicked as well.
If you want the best of both worlds, a mag a heavy bonded bullets coupled to a mag of the Blitz Kings, or something in that class.
Went back & looked at those...............good info & thanks for posting.
Yes, the TMK's are impressive as are the IMI 77's................for non-handloads, I shoot the IMI stuff quite a bit, both 55's & the 77's.
And I've loaded a lot of the 77 & 69 TMK's & both shoot well for me; I'm not splitting hairs for minor absolute differences in group size compared to SMK's, so I'm satisfied with both.
My only complaint with the TMK's is that when loaded to 2.250, the case neck is right at the ogive.......any deeper & you are into the ogive for sure. I usually use them in ASC mags which allow a little more length.
Here's a link & some pics from a MOLON post on SH that clearly shows what I just said.
It's not just about the weight of the bullet, but how it's made. When we switched to widespread use of SBRs we moved to the 75grain Gold Dot because it was what would reliably expand at lower velocities. The lighter bullets are made to be pushed fast and hold together at those speeds.
Blue,
Do you have any info comparing the GD's performance to a Hornady 75 BTHP or a Sierra 77 SMK or a TMK? Either in gel or some other test?
Thanks.
MM
Somebody has the gel test results but I don't have them handy. I wasn't directly involved in the testing. But our selection accounted for things that might not matter to anyone else.... We had to have a round that would expand at 200 yards from whatever velocity it produced in an 11.5" barrel, would stabilize in a 1-9" barrel, and we could reliably source in very large quantities.
Pretty solid info on this site. Black column on left side opens up with variety of info. AR15 Ammo Oracle
Beauty of AR platform is the variety forms it can be made into. Service rifle, CQB carbine, DCM target, DMR, hunting etc. I shoot 16" 1:7 twist with Sierra 77OTM, and have no intention of using my carbine >200yrds. So my standard ammo is HFC. Debate of light & fast vs heavy & slow is never going to end, regardless of application. 2 holes are better than 1.
funny thing about all of this, American Soldiers in Korea complained about 110 grain bullets at 2000 fps, and yet today we seem to be happy with short barreled results of 2200 with a 75 grain bullet. Given the 110 was a FMJ, OTOH the M1 carbine has not been used much as a deer rifle.
I think the terminal performance is much different, and most of that is based on bullet construction.
Fixed that for ya.
Jimmyp, if you're trying to form a conclusion about 5.56 based on a round nose 30 carbine FMJ bullet - just stop. They have very little in common and do not perform at all the same way. The type of bullet used makes a huge difference.
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