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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1 |
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. With 62 grain fusion going between 2530 and 2731 in a 10 or 14.5 inch barrel, and 77 grain going 2420 to 2575 from 10 to 14.5 barrel, its a long way from the 20 inch 55 grain 3300 fps we started with a bunch of years ago. Quite frankly the 55 at 3300 from a 20 seemed to be fairly effective as far as I can find. Why did we shorten the barrel to 14.5 inches, and start shooting heavier bullets? One wonders if a 55 grain gold dot from a 20 inch barrel would be more effective than a 77 grain MK from a 14.5 inch barrel out to 2-300 yards?
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,496 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,496 Likes: 4 |
Well the M4 is designed to make it easier to get in and out of cramped personnel carriers along with being handier indoors.
Dog I rescued in January
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,981
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,981 |
I've found about a 300 fps difference in muzzle velocity between a 16" Colt barrel and a 23. 5" CZ (bolt-action ) barrel with most loads. I've never seen close to 3300 fps with 55 grain bullets form a 20" barrel, but perhaps it's possible.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1 |
IIRC the 5.56 and M193 was 3300 from a 20?
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,234 Likes: 27
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,234 Likes: 27 |
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. With 62 grain fusion going between 2530 and 2731 in a 10 or 14.5 inch barrel, and 77 grain going 2420 to 2575 from 10 to 14.5 barrel, its a long way from the 20 inch 55 grain 3300 fps we started with a bunch of years ago. Quite frankly the 55 at 3300 from a 20 seemed to be fairly effective as far as I can find. Why did we shorten the barrel to 14.5 inches, and start shooting heavier bullets? One wonders if a 55 grain gold dot from a 20 inch barrel would be more effective than a 77 grain MK from a 14.5 inch barrel out to 2-300 yards? Everything is "more effective" out of a 20. Hopefully that answers your question
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,330
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,330 |
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. Jimmy, Have a link? Jerry
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,679 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,679 Likes: 1 |
IIRC the 5.56 and M193 was 3300 from a 20? More like 3260 IIRC
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad." ---------------------------------------------- "Jimmy, some of it's magic, Some of it's tragic, But I had a good life all the way." (Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,190 |
Ya I'm thinking 3200ish. I'm getting just over 3100 in my 16" barrels, got 3000 in my 14.5's.
I need to get another 20" barrel one day and see if it made that much difference. I don't remember coyotes dying any deader but it'll be fun finding out again.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1 |
I have just read a very good study of 10.3, 12.5, and 14.5 inch velocities with several different "self defense" ammunition's. Jimmy, Have a link? Jerry suppressed 5.56 SBR velocitiesI remember Formidilousis liked this bullet. Federal Fusion MSR 62gr Ballistic Co-efficient .315 (G1) The Chopping Block tested this ammo and got about 190% expansion (.384") @ 1700fps.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1 |
great table bullets and barrel lengthsthere is some oddness in that some of the 55s dont seem to be a fast as the heavier bullets, but in general it looks like that 12.5 is a good length for a pistol, wish he had some 16 and 20 inch barrel comparisons.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,218 Likes: 25
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,218 Likes: 25 |
The fascination with stubby barrels for the .223 dazzles my funnybone. The disciples of that faith never cease to amaze.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
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What is dazzling about it?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,218 Likes: 25
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,218 Likes: 25 |
It makes me convulse in laughter mostly. I just don't get it. Basic platform for the 5.56 many moons ago was a nimble killer out to 300+ meters. They worked fine up close and personal as well. Once they got the bugs fixed it was reliable, light weight and low maintenance. We carried pistols to do a pistol's work. Way I see it something not broke was fixed in a curious way. To be clear, I'm not talking about military weapons, though I'd not want an M4 for a field weapon in the Mideast, it might be the schizzle for CQ, house to house stuff. I'm looking at the civilian offshoots.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,096 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,096 Likes: 5 |
The purpose is a compact/maneuverable weapon for tight places like vehicles, houses, that can still defeat body armor.
...and can still reach out to 300 yards if needed.
Last edited by MontanaMarine; 05/15/20.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1 |
The weapon firing 55 grains at 3290 FPS in FMJ form with cannelure, at 1-200 yards has been shown to be effective, so we shorten the barrel, probably increase the weight of the gun, and now look for special bullets at 2500 FPS to do about the same thing. The 10-12 inch pistols etc look pretty cool so you got that going for you, OTOH a pencil barreled 16-20 inch gun firing M193 55’s at 3100-3200 probably is as good or better than a 12.5 shooting 75 hornadys at 2300 from a 12.5. The emperors new clothes. I guess the army has to spend money.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
So far I've refrained from buying a pistol AR, or SBR. Shot next to one at an indoor range a few months ago and it was one god-awful loud beast. One of those cup-style flash hiders that direct the blast forward might be worthwhile.
I kind of like the idea of a short AR for a house/vehicle gun, but it may be a .300 BO instead.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,111 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,111 Likes: 5 |
The weapon firing 55 grains at 3290 FPS in FMJ form with cannelure, at 1-200 yards has been shown to be effective, so we shorten the barrel, probably increase the weight of the gun, and now look for special bullets at 2500 FPS to do about the same thing. The 10-12 inch pistols etc look pretty cool so you got that going for you, OTOH a pencil barreled 16-20 inch gun firing M193 55’s at 3100-3200 probably is as good or better than a 12.5 shooting 75 hornadys at 2300 from a 12.5. The emperors new clothes. I guess the army has to spend money. The solution for a short barrel is not a heavier bullet.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,096 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,096 Likes: 5 |
It's all a tradeoff between performance and size.
My favorite is around 14.5", and I've got barrels from 10.5" to 20" as my basis of experience.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1 |
I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,111 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,111 Likes: 5 |
I just feel we have gone so far afield with this gun. It’s originally a high velocity 22 with a fragmenting bullet, now everyone is shooting 77 grain bullets at moderate velocities Not everyone. I seldom shoot anything heavier then 64 grains. Most of what I shoot is between 52 and 62 grains.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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