Okay I know a lot of you have seen the Best of the West show on wild TV. That was a shocker when I seen what bullets they use. I've used Berger bullets when I shoot at the 1000 yard match in Burns Lake, BC, but i never gave them a thought for hunting game with them. So I was up at Corlane Sports with the old man last week and decided to pick up some 130gr for my 6.5WSM I will be trying them on mr. Black Bear in a few weeks. Has anyone used them for hunting yet?

No way would I use Berger VLD's for anything other than paper targets and varmint hunting. No matter what Mr. Berger or anyone else says about using Berger VLD's for big game, not me. I've had his 140g 6.5mm VLD's blowup in the air within 40 yards of the muzzle at 3100 fps (1:8 twist). The bullet jacket is just too thin. If you want to use a match bullet for big game at least go with SMK's. Their 140's and 142g 6.5's have survived 3200+ fps from my 264 Winmag.

Bend, Thanks for your input friend. If you had a 140 berger blow up at 3100fps, i hope you informed Berger about it. I've shot hundreds if not thousand Berger bullets and I have yet to have any blow up on me. I drive them out of my 6.5 WSM at 3220fps. They shot better around 3050 though. So why are these guys flattening all these critters on Best Of the West?

cuz the bullets are expanding so violently fast.

Have you read Mule Deers reports on the Berger bullets? It should answer all your questions.

I have shot two deer so far with Berger VLD's and I am using them where I can. The one in the picture was hit with a 168 gr 7mm VLD at 315 yds started at 2900 fps and another with a 155 VLD at 120 yds from a 308.

Just like most bullets one should consider the game and the bullets striking velocity.

I can't recall JB's article but I suspect that he mentioned a maximum suggested velocity which your rifle may exceed with that bullet.

There was a big difference on how far the 168 7mm VLD penetrated at longer range than what the 155 308 VLD did at shorter range. From what I saw I would not use that 155 VLD from a 308 on black bear unless I had to.

Will your rifle stabilize the 140 gr 6.5 mm VLD? The Berger site says that it requires a 1-9" or faster twist.

Griz,

You definitely need to read the Barsness article on how they work, the theory of why the work and his predicted limits.

I used the .264"/130 gr VLD last year in my 6.5-'06 and killed an antelope at 290 yards with it. I think they are great for deer and antelope.

If you are shooting black bear at close range I would recommend another bullet.

jim

Thanks for the input fellas. My rifle has a pac-nor 1n9 twist and yes i've used the 140's before. Couldn't get my hands on the 140 so i bought 130, i'll back the load down a bit as long as it it shoots tight.

I used the 140 VLD out of my .264 Win, Mag at 3100 fps to take an antelope at approximately 250 yards. One shot high in the shoulder resulted in a bang flop. So did the 140g Hornady SP the year before at 300 yards.

Mr. Berger and I talked in-depth about the blowups on the phone. He asked me to send him the box of bullets and the details. He also stated that he would replace the bullets. I sent the bullets (about 50) and have yet to hear back from him. Its been about 2-3 years now. I no longer use his products.

The barrel was a crisp new .264 28 inch Pac-Nor, 1:8 twist, 3 grove. This may have had some affect on Berger's bullet jackets. However, when I switched to SMK's, the problem went away. YMMV.

Berger bullets are for targets. not hunting!

I have had many arguments with a buddy... he claims they are the best elk bullet in the world!

I submitted a comment to best of the west website, asking if they ever have shot anything up close, and how did it handle it? Yet to hear back from them. That was a week ago.

Hope your not holding your breathe......grin

Never ran match bullets on game, but it only stands to reason that thin jackets and high velocity, don't make for favorable results.

Stretch it out to 1/2k plus and I could see an arguement for their use.....

RO

Sorry, i may be missing something but why? Why would you want to use a match bullet when there are so many good hunting bullets?

Match bullets make a lot more sense when your dealing with long distance, due to their high BC's and the fact that they are built to tighter tolerances. Thin jackets allow for better expansion, when velocity drops off.

RO

The Berger VLD's have superior ballistic coefficient's. According to others while they have very thin jackets for some reason, perhaps the nose construction, they still penetrate a certain distance and then expand very very rapidly. Therefore the result is a deadly accurate able bullet for soft skinned and perhaps small boned game under 400 lbs.

So as long as you limit your animals to "soft skinned/perhaps small boned and under 400lbs", range doesn't matter??

Does velocity play into your formula at all, or do thin jackets "penetrate a certain distance", then expand violantly at all speeds???

Pretty sure those have a thinner jacket than NBT's, and when you a push a NBT much over 3200 really interesting stuff happens to it, regardless of animal size....

I'd say violent expansion is an understatement....

I'd be willing to bet a small whitetail shot at say 50 meters with a VLD wouldn't show adequate penetration to both lungs should a shoulder knuckle be hit....

I was uncoiling a little rope for donkey don.........

Everything must be considered just like with other bullets. I covered your question, which is a valid one, in my first post on this topic. You can find it six from the top.

Dunnooo about that don....So lets say you are hunting the wiiiidde open spaces like maybe some Milk River river breaks....You bounce up a big 'ol whitetail....A really nice 170class deer....YOU'RE going to let him run for 300 or 400 yards to make sure your bullet choice is applicable? And then wait for him to present a good broadside shot to ensure adequate penetration before violent expansion?

Oh that one is easy. Just shout MAW and they stop and turn back to look. Gotta run now but those Milk River river breaks sound beautiful.

We ain't talking about a doe in a food plot.........

Why not learn how to "hunt" and get closer, and use a bullet that has been designed for the job?.

Dave,

We visited friends in GB back in the 90's and I made a point of stopping in all of the gun shops I could get to. I was in Crudgingtons in Bath getting the tour and making a pest of myself.

After spouting off on how hard hunting is in Vermont, USA, that I might get only one running shot and that if I am lucky so I use the .358 Winchester. Nothing else will do. That I have blasted maybe a hundred deer with it and I know.

A customer speaks up. He had been listening and mentions that he uses the 7-57.

So I asked him. "How many deer have you shot?. He answers "maybe 750".

I say, "Don't they run sometimes?" and he answers "Oh thats ok the dog always finds them".

To each his own.

99 sorry,not sure what you mean with the "deer running" and the dog bit

I know that the .358 Win using the 180 gr Speer is more effective, in particular with marginal hits, that any 7-57 for the woods hunting that I am familiar with.

The game keeper at Crudgingtons meant deer that got away at the shot. That the dog would find them. In other words he was not overly concerned as the dog always found them he said.

Ok.
For those that dont know,it is considered VERY poor practice to shoot running game over here,infact where i am a contract stalker who guides, if anybody shoots a deer on the run they are BANNED.I think what the chap is refureing to is that we do not expect the deer to drop at the shot, if it does then caution is taken to ensure that it has not been spined,part of the certification process is how the animal reacts to the shot eg. if it is gut shot the animal will hunch up and run off were as a heart/lung shot the animal will leap forward.We dont head shoot very rarely neck shoot and never shoot them up the ass.If were shooting on the edge of woodland and the animal runs into the woods it will normaly be within 20/30yards if that.If after 5 /10 mins and we still havn`t found it then the dogs go in.

All right, since apparently many of those posting here are theorizing on what a Berger VLD will do, and have never seen one at work or read my article, I will summarize:

Berger VLD's do have very thin jackets and soft lead cores. But they also have an extremely long ogive and tiny hollowpoint. This apparently prevents the bullets from expanding at all until it gets 1.5-2 inches inside an animal.

This was discovered slowly--and not by Berger. Some people tried shooting animals with the VLD's, and the bullets worked. Berger got many favorable reports, so started their own investigation. Initial tests in "media" revealed the lack of expansion in the first couple of inches--when every other expansing bullet on the market starts to expand immediately on impact with either media or animal tissue. (Or at least it does when it expands at all. On rare occasions expanding bullets don't.)

Eventually it was decided to test them on a LOT of game animals. This was done in two ways: by distributing VLD's free to volunteer deer hunters who handloaded, and by having some gun/hunting writers go to New Zealand and shoot the heck out of the super-abundant "exotic" game down there.

There were about 160 volunteer hunters who handloaded. They all reported favorable results, and no bullet failures.

I was one of the gun/hunting writers who went to New Zealand. We shot a pile of animals, mostly feral goats but also red stags up to 400 pounds or so live weight. The feral goats are about the size of Southern whitetails, but are also one of the toughest animals alive (which can be attested to by anybody who has shot them on control).

At the start of the shoot, the NZ outfitter told us (after merely looking at a loaded round) that we had absolutely the wrong bullet for shooting goats, that we needed a round-nose with lots of lead showing. By the end of the first 24 hours, the NZ boys said the VLD the best goat bullet they had ever seen.

We not only shot the heck out of things, but we autopsied many animals. The lack of expansion for 2" or so was consistent--EVEN WHEN THE BULLET HIT BONE. I finally propped up a dead bily goat that had been killed with a lung shot, and deliberately shot it through the heaviest part of the shoulder bone at 10 yards. The bullet broke both shoulders and exited. This was with a 185 from a .30-06, started at over 2800 fps. My wife eventually shot a fallow deer female for meat, at 50 yards, putting a 115 from a .257 Roberts (MV 3000 or so) into the skull below the ear. Again, the bullet went almost through the head before expanding.

In fact, the entrance holes were so small that sometimes we had a hard time finding them. But the insides would be a mess, by far the most damage I've ever seen with an expanding bullet. This is the reason goats were killed so quickly. Broadside lung shots usualy dropped goats right there, or they went at most 10 yards.

The rifles and loads used were a pair of .257 Bobs (115 at 3000), a .264 Winchester Magnum (140 at 3000+), two .30-06's (168 and 185 at 2800-2900), and a couple of .300 Winchester Magnums (168 abd 185 at 3100-3200). Bullet action was remarkably similar regardless of range, and we shot goats from 20 to 530 yards. The bullet would go in 2" or so, then expand violently.

On goats it usually exited, but on the big red stags it exited about half the time. The most convincing kill I saw was a huge red stag shot in the liver and rear of one lung at 200 yards with one of the .257's. He humped up and started to walk off, but only made it about 15 feet before keeling over. The liver was liver-burger.

We NEVER saw any surface wounds, at any range with any load. Apparently there is something in the very long ogive that prevents expansion before the bullet gets inside.

As I said in the article, 400 pounds is kind of pushing the envelope, and VLD's do not penetrate far enough for rear-end shots. But put them in the chest and they knock the snot out of stuff. They are the quickest-killing bullets of deer-sized game I have ever used.

I not sure why anyone would take the chance on using a target bullet on game when we are in the golden age of hunting bullets.It's just irresponsible.(Unless your a writer doing some research?)

Two reasons seem to have emerged from this and other information.

1. Berger VLD's have superior ballistic properties.

2. "They are the quickest-killing bullets of deer-sized game I have ever used."
Quote from Mule Deer.

If Mr Johnny B. says it, you can take it to the bank... A couple hundred animals cant be wrong...

SawDoctor,

I often get asked to test new stuff, and generally accept if possible, because there is always something to learn. When Berger asked me to test the VLD's I was skeptical, but I am also a journalist who long ago decided to try as much of possible for myself before coming to conclusions. I have done this with a lot of things that many people have firm opinions about (whether they have tried them or not) including fenced hunting and iron sights at over 150 yards. I have always learned something from these experiences, often something not included in "common wisdom."

One of the reasons I do this is that early in my career I often tried stuff on the word of other gun writers, who wrote more on theory than fact. An example was the first version of the Speer Grand Slam. This was written up by many gun writers as the latest premiumn bullet in the mid-1970's, and so I tried some for elk hunting, partly because they cost a little less than Nosler Partitions. I found out the hard way that the original Grand Slam was a perfect example of a "premium" hunting bullet designed without any field testing, as it came apart pretty easily. (GS's did get pretty good after a while.)

So since then I have made it my policy to test any new bullet myself, first in various test media and then on game. In the process I have found that not all of the great new bullets of our golden age aren't quite what they are claimed to be.

I have also found that today's common wisdom that a bullet has to retain over 90% of its weight and penetrate elk endwise, or it won't kill well, is also BS. Among other things I have found that 90% weight retention does not guarantee adequate penetration, and that an exit hole does not guarantee an animal will drop quickly.

Conversely, I have also found that some bullets not designed for particular tasks work great there. Such was the case with the Bergers. For whatever reason they work, and I know they do because I tried them, not once but a bunch. They do come apart, but only after penetrating--and coming apart is not the evil believed by common wisdom these days. It makes a much bigger hole in the animal, and the size of the hole is what kills, not 90% weighr retention or an exit.

So what I've found is that a lot of bullet design theory is just that, whether we are talking bullets designed for hunting that don't work so well for that purpose, or bullets designed for target shooting that DO work very well for some hunting. If we insist on depending on labels applied to anything, we will always be in for some surprises.

Are you crazy? Valuing personal experience over "internet ballistic geniuses" who have never actually shot the bullet at game just can't be right. Maybe you got some defective goats.

That's it! Probably the New Zealanders heard about us coming and herded all their "bad goats" over to where we were shooting. Oh, those wascally Kiwis!

I've some 6.5 140 VLD's loaded in a 6.5x284 that will go with me
this spring bear hunt.

Hopefully I'll use them.

So, MD, are you saying that there are no longer reasons other then Africa for hardend BT's, Partitions, Grand Slams, Trophy Bonded's, etc.? And, the only reason for non-lead mono's in CONUS is the condor area in CA? Sounds like it to me. Heck, seems like Nosler, etc. will be out of business soon.

Elmer Keith is rolling in his grave.

Just a quick question while you guys are on the berger discussion.....and Im tired of trying to find the info.

What are the bullet lengths for the .284 168 and 180 VLD's? Thanks

Shot two buck Antelope in Wyoming last Fall with my NULA 257AI, using 115gr VLDs.

The first antelope, was lying down and broadside, at a lasered 233 yds. At the bullet hit , the Antelope jumped up, and ran about 15 yds, and then its head went down, and the the rear end flipped over the head. The antelope then jumped up again, back in the direction from which it had come, and ran about 10 yds, and again the head dropped down and the rear end flipped over the head. It did not move after that.

When I examined the animal, the bullet had entered the lower chest cavity, and blew out the chest that resulted in a gaping wound about 3" wide there. The heart was completely destroyed.

Heart shot animals can do some strange things, but I had never seen anything like this before. Fortunately, the whole kill was captured on video by a friend.

The second Antelope was shot at a lasered 273 yds, was standing broadside, and dropped on the shot. It was a high lung shot that destroyed both lungs(think soup), along with the arteries and veins above the heart.

So I have a database of 2 with the 25 caliber, 115gr VLDs, that would appear to be consistent with JB's experience.

Hope this helps some in the compilation of VLD hunting data.

Steve

Nope, just saying there is no single answer to the bullet question, as some people seem to think.

Actually Elmer Keith didn't use many premium bullets. He really didn't quite grasp the idea of Nosler Partitions, always insisting they should be heavier--like the cup-and-core bullets he was used to. I have also heard that one reason he was so fond of the 275 Speer in various .338's is that he could get them in bulk for free from Vernon Speer. Of course when they had the heavy jacket and were started at moderate velocity (as they pretty much had to be, even in the .340 Weatherby) they worked pretty well.

Would it be correct to say that you were essentially on a cull hunt then?

Blowing up the front half of a deer/goat/sheep, isn't a quality most guys look for in a bullet. Aside from that, in the locale I hunt, bears are a very real possibility as well, and I'll take controlled expansion over explosion any day.

I would have to agree with RO on this and it is why I always use a premium bullet when hunting anything here in B.C. I simply feel more capable with a .338WM-250NP when crawling through the "Devil's Club" in the Monashee where RO hangs out than I would with a softer bullet and smaller bore...."horses for courses".

Well fellas, i've got some 130's loaded in the 6.5 wsm and the ol man has some 180's in his 300 wm. We'll give full report on the black bear hunt and how they worked!! I'll be packing some 130 barnes tsx along also!

I really wanna pack this sweet .458WM FN Browning that I just scored, but, I can't fine good bullets for it here in Canada. I would like 450 SAFs, just in case someone has a box or three lying around.

I might have to fly Vancouver to Rupert at the end of the month and drive a truck back here to the coast, so, I kinda want to look for a huge Blackie on the way home. Being a geezer, I don't want to mess around with no "puzzy" cartridges, eh!

RO, where did he say that it blew up the front half of the animal? Even in the quote you highlighted, there is no mention of it blowing up the front half of the animal. I think he also says that the bullet worked well for him in game up to 400 lbs. He has made no mention of game larger than that(doesnt advocate Berger VLD's for grizzly!). He also mentions exits on most of the shots as well.

His experience means more to me than your speculation.

I find it strange that several posters keep harping that the use of this bullet is a poor choice after the facts have been presented. It does have its limits. I trust John B's report and judgement.

That said I chose the 115 VLD shot from my 257 Roy for coues wt beginning this past season. One poster mentioned something about learn how to hunt and get closer. He has not hunted trophy coues. This year's buck was shot at 525 yds. The impact velocity was approx 2750. The bullet entered just behind the onside shoulder and EXITED through the offside shoulder knuckle. The buck staggered around for a few seconds and dropped. Couldn't ask for more than that.

I will continue to use this high BC bullet (.523 ) for coues and will use it for antelope (if I ever get drawn) without hesitation. As for heavier game I will use a premium bullet like the TSX or the new E-tip.

There are plenty of options for handloaders no need to doubt or complain that such and such bullet is a poor choice. If you don't like the VLD for hunting don't use it. If you haven't used it don't bad mouth it with your armchair comments.

RiverOtter,

Yes, for the most part we were on a cull.

Nope, didn't blow up the front half of anything. As pointed out, the bullets don't start to expand until they get 1.5 to 2 inches inside; only then do they come apart. If you shoot the animal in the ribs, or even in the shoulder, there is simply a needle-like entrance hole. The big damage is done INSIDE the animal's heart-lung cavity.

The only damage done to any meat was when the bullets exited, but even then the primary expansion was inside the animal. This would basically be the pattern on any animal from pronghorn-size up.

One example of the "meat damage" on a larger animal was the red stag I shot. He was bedded across a canyon at 250 yards (lasered), and I put a 185 VLD from a .30-06 into his heart. He extended one front leg, leaned his head back--and then roled down the hill. There was the typical needle-like entrance hole just behind the shoulder. Then there was the heart, essentially turned into a long flap of muscle by being turned inside-out. None of the jacket or core exited the ribs on the far side, though some pieces were found lying against it. So the only meat damage as from the entrance hole.

Kute,

I never said anywhere in the article (and will never say anywhere) that the VLD is a general purpose elk/moose/bear bullet--even though apparently many elk have been taken with them, and quite neatly.

They are simply not an all-around bullet. But they are a superb hunting bullet for certain purposes, the reason that my wife and I used them last fall for some pronghorn and deer hunting. Of course: "horses for courses."

Whoa, there Ky and AZ, if you read RO's post CAREFULLY, he does NOT state that JB's posts are invalid, he simply, posted an ASIDE, that HE prefers ...controlled expansion... and WHY, in HIS area.

Now, no doubt both of you have far more B.C. hunting experience than RO does, I do or even both of us together, but, could it be remotely possible that he MIGHT be capable of forming an opinion for HIS use based on his experiences where he lives/hunts?

The fact is, that a controlled expansion bullet IS preferable in B.C. hunting and I suspect that, if you read JB's story of his B.C. hunt, you will find that such is what HE chose, as well.

To post that another is an ...armchair... hunter here is rather detrimental to the flow of honest opinion and information, IMO; it does not benefit any among us.

Of course, John, see my above, as we typed at the same time. I think that you are well aware of my respect for your opinion on these issues and guns in general.

I grew up in the region that RO lives in and tend to a very conservative approach to this issue as we don't get nearly as many shots at game in a given season as many who have not hunted B.C. seem to think we do.

Anythewho, it's all good chatter for a grey, rainy Sunday morning, when a cold prevents me from humping a training pack up the North Shore mountains!

Yeah, I see that we cross-posted.

I tend to choose the same kind of rifles/loads for the grizzly areas of Montana that you do up there. And in general those areas (at least the wilderness areas) have the same relatively low game density as any mountain country. You would be struck in many ways by the similarities between the northern Bob Marshall and northern B.C. The big differences are no caribou here, and instead of thinhorn sheep we have bighorns.

When I hunted northern B.C. for moose and elk in 2002 I took a .300 Winchester with 200-grain Partitions and a 9,3x62 with 286 Partitions. There were quite a few grizzlies around, despite the B.C. game department closing the season in that area for lack of bears. I saw six different bears and signs of a couple others. Luckily, did not have any real hassles--though m guide did grab the .300 to fire a "warning shot" at one bear that was following us around.

All I can add is from my experience (on one animal) and from those who have used them on this post I will again use them this coming season. Besides in my .264 WM they are more accurate than other bullets I have used.

When testing for accuracy I was working on a 2" 300 yard group until I pulled the second shot. Grinning!

I apologize for making a comment where you felt you had to defends yourself.Thank you for being kind in your reply wich solidified your position as my favorite gunwriter by the way.
I still don't think he should be pointing them at a black bear.

Indeed,I have never been on a coues deer hunt, and no i have never shot a deer at or approaching those distances and never will,i hunt, not shoot, and average more than 1 deer a week not a year, so i do know a little about bullet performance and placement.Also the use of target bullets is prohibited here,only "bullets designed to expand on impact" are allowed.

Dave,

We had a revolution over here so that King George's rules would not apply.

Thus we build running deer shoots and practice it here. Etc.



If you have good eyesight then you can read the fine print on the sign.

kutenay,

I was simply posting on the inaccuracies in RO's post to which I alluded. I firmly agree that everyone has his/her right to their own opinion on this site.

I'm pretty sure John knew what I meant by "blow up". Blood shot and wasted meat, which he answered in his post just above here.

I have already admitted to not using the Bergers and likely will never use one on a big game(That includes deer where I live) animal of any sort, mostly because hunting in B.C., you never know what your going to run into. A morning deer, elk or moose hunt can instantly turn into a BB, cougar or grizzly hunt and at ranges in single digits.

RO

RO, I envy that about where you live. I have whitetail deer, wild turkeys, rabbits, squirrels, grouse, quail, coyotes and an occasional duck/goose in the winter time. That isnt really in the same league as the game you have available to you. Now all I have to do is to talk the wife into moving to where the game is-no luck yet.

Good hunting.

99
Can only read the "will be shot".I`ve a bladder infection at the mo so it cannot be to funny or i might wee myself!!

That's terrible customer relations!

There was an article in a magazine several months ago and they did a test with the ballistic tube. I took some pics of it a while back and still have them in my photo bucket for those interested:

Left is channel of Nosler Partition, two right ones, Berger VLD. You can see the path of the Partion as it kept going:



Another Berger channel:



And a recovered bullet from the tube 40% of it's original weight:



Me personally I wouldn't use them, that's just my opinion. They were not designed as a hunting bullet and that alone says to me, that they may work, but it also increases the instances they may not.

Primarily I hunt mule deer in Washington State. Country is pretty open, and shots are often on the long side - although we've taken a number of deer at closer ranges.

I've committed to trying Bergers this season. Have worked up a dandy load for the 115 VLD from my .25-06, and am working with both the 168 & 190 VLD's for the .300 WSM. So far results at the range have been very good. Looking forward to trying them on game this coming season. I read the articles by JB/Mule Deer. And re-read them. Asked a few buddies who have used them on game as large as elk, and of course I got the video from Berger and watched it. I'm convinced that at least for deer, these things are well worth trying - particularly when they shoot so well at distance.

Although I've taken nowhere near the amount of game some of you guys have, I've tried a fair number of different bullets and cartridges over the years - generally with very good results. Just thought that these VLD's might be a very good bullet for what I hunt - open country mulies. Sure hope to have a bullet performance report for all this coming fall.

Edited - Bear season is open at the same time, and if I happen across a bear while carrying a rifle loaded with the VLD's - I'll not hesitate to put one in him!

Regards, Guy

UKdave,

Sorry that you don't feel well and the wish that your better soon.

The sign just reads: "Parallel Parkers Will Be Shot."

I was so impressed by one aspect of the land use in the UK. As I recall most of the housing is clustered in villages/cities and all of the rest of the land is unspoiled by any other house except the original from long ago.

How this matters to me, a hunter, is significant because here in New England USA it seems that every good spot in the countryside has a new house in the middle of it now and therefore no hunting there.

So there in the UK you might very well have a lot open spaces. One could just "google earth" to see that over there. I have provided just one such picture below of the edge of the nearest village to Pembrokeshire, Wales where our friends have a vacation house with a view of the ocean.

What I see are houses or maybe even apartments clustered very close together and then plenty of open land. Be well.

Guy, I hunt Washington as well and also have committed to using
Berger VLD's in my 300 WSM. I would be interested in your
loads and how they are working out.

I can understand the reason people don't want to use match bullets on big game, but it seems the Bergers are working. Has anyone used them and not had good results?

Back in 95 I was Moose hunting in Alberta and there were two other fellas in camp. They were both using 300 Mags (I think one 300 H&H and a 300 Win or both 300 H&H's) One was using 180g SMK the other 150g Win. Silvertips. The one with the SMK shot a bull at 8 yards in the shoulder. From what was described to us the bull kept on going. We never found it (Of course the outfitter never looked for it after a short search). The one with the 150s shot his bull at 12 yards coming in. 12 shots later with some 180 SMKs thrown in it finally succumbed. My friend and I were about a mile away dressing out his bull (One shot 180 NBT) when the shooting started. Sounded like a war. We went over there and the post mortem showed only one or two shot got to the vitals, but the bull was riddled.

With that knowledge I was apprehensive about using the VLD bullets, but I only used them on antelope so far. The results of that one animal showed that I had nothing to worry about. I would like to try them again on antelope and deer.

Just because they were't "designed as a hunting bullet" doesn't mean they won't work as a hunting bullet. Hell, Columbus wasn't looking for the Americas... but that worked out pretty well for us all now didn't it?

Heck, neither was the VMAX but it's been used. Where did I say they wouldn't work? I said: "...they may work but also increase the chances they may not..." Regardless, just one man's opinion and mine probably wouldn't be to use them. It's someone elses choice if they want to give them a try which is why I posted the pics.


And how does this even remotely relate to bullet designs ?

Well, it didn't work well for everyone now did it.........

Point is: Just because it wasn't the original intent of the designer... doesn't mean that it won't work well in another application.



The V-Max was designed as a 'hunting' bullet... for the 'hunting' of varmints. I've seen what a 95 grain V-Max will do to large deer out of a .264 Win. Mag... and it was one of the most decisive kills I've ever seen, including the EXIT wound.



A gunshot wound doesn't really work out well for the recipient either... now does it?

I agree, but you wouldn't cross the Atlantic in a 12' aluminum boat and 25 hp motor would you? How about an Ultralight? I think when using something it wasn't designed for, it has to be within reason. Not saying the Berger isn't, but I think you've missed my point and took my opinion personally because you probably use them. Not my intent at all.

This past fall I used 168 gr. Berger VLDs out of a 300 Weatherby Magnum to take 4 antelope. They work quite well at least on antelope. The longest shot was at a buck at 292 yards through the heart. My spotters noted a red mist at the shot. There was a 6 to 8 foot spray of blood on the grass behind where the antelope was shot.

Never shot anything but a dozen or so coyotes with them... and said coyotes got [bleep] up in a pretty severe manner. Rather than speculating... I ACTUALLY LOADED SOME UP AND SHOT SOME CRITTERS. What have you shot with them? I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them at deer... why? Because I know how they'll perform. Maybe you should shoot a few before passing judgement... and do a little less of that picture in your avitar.

I never said they wouldn't work, I just gave an opinon and some concerns regarding reliablity. Apparently because I exercised my right of choice in deciding I probably wouldn't use them due to those concerns offends you.

I've been nothing but civil in what I thought was a civil discussion. You made it personal with your childish and condescending attitude from your first post, do you speak to people like this face to face or only when hiding behind a keyboard? I never claimed to have loaded or shot Bergers. I've loaded and shot a majority of the bullets out there and shot my share of animals, including coyotes with HP's, VMAX and next up VG's. I'm here to share experiences and give my opinions based on those and hear of others experiences. If you don't agree, that's your right, we can do so civilly. However if you want to continue to act the way you do, that's your character flaw, not mine. I'll be the bigger man and show a little more class.

You haven't offended me... just provided another example of arm-chair ballistics research. You're here to 'share your experiences'... yet have none on the subject at hand?

If you only knew, I've probably fire more types of firearms than you ever will. The only experience I lack here is with Berger bullets. But apparently shooting 30 lb coyotes makes you the resident expert?

Nope... just pointing out the fact that you have no experience with the subject matter, yet you pass judgement and discount the ACTUALL FIELD EXPERIENCE of those who've been there/done that. I shoot a lot of coyotes with a lot of bullets, I know what a good deer bullet does to coyotes... do you?

My first exposure to Berger VLD bullets (other than reading their advertisements) came in an elk camp this fall. A fellow from Wyo had one of the Sakos that came out some time ago chambered for one of the .30 cal Lazzaronis (can't remember the name - the big one) and he loaded it to the gills with the 168-gr Bergers with which - he said - he had slain many head of deer, antelope and cow elk with that year alone in several states. His wife killed a Shiras moose in Utan this fall with the same bullet out of a 300 Win mag. I believed him. He was some kind of oil company technician and a subsistence hunter in that his family lived off of venison of all kinds and exclusively.

His load he said hit 3600 fps and his description of the innards mirrored JB's in that he described them as akin to cranberrry sauce.

This was his elk load too and he had a 6.5-20x Leupold on that Sako and was all enthused about his odds on a 500 or 600-yd bull. He killed one at 100 yds., spining it. Obviously,...it worked in that he had a six point down and out......

It would not be my choice but there it is.

gdv

No, I don't, but show me where I've passed judgement or discounted anyone. And yes I've seen what a "deer" bullet does to a coyote with a 270 and a SP. I've also taken them with the 17 HMR, 22 mag, 204 and 223.

How does killing a dozen or so coyotes, prove the worth of a bullet on deer???

I kill many coyotes a year with 40 gr BT's out of a 250, don't make it a deer bullet, by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how quick the yotes drop.

Seems to me, that as far as use on critters bigger than 40lb coyotes(tops), DDP is just speculating as well. Maybe after next hunting season, he could let us know how his "ACTUAL FIELD EXPERIENCE" on DEER, turned out.

RO

I'm comparing the results to another hundred or so dogs I've shot with various other "deer" bullets... pretty easy to do the frickin math. I'm not claiming I have a ton of experience... but I'm willing to listen to those who have, like JB. Most would rather hide behind a lable and computer screen and speculate on bullet performance. I expected them to perform in a similar manner to a Ballistic Tip... they did. I'd also expect that to carry over to larger critters... according to much ACTUALL CRITTER SHOOTING by those far mor qualified than me to judge... it has. Shooting coyotes with a 40 grainer gives you no idea of how a deer bullet should perform... shooting them with 'deer' bullet out of deer rifles does.

Thanks for the tips, I'll try to remember that 40lb yote is on par with a 250-300 lb white tail, for "deer" bullet comparison.

So basically in summation, you shot a few yotes with deer bullets, then read an article by John and figured you'd connect the dots, as per your "Actuall Critter Shooting"

Fair nuff........

RO

Better than shooting phone books or some other type "media"...

You know this is all fine and dandy, until a real-world experience occurs where conditions are less than perfect.

So you use your bergers, because you tested them on a few coyotes....You take them out deer hunting....250 meters out there's the buck of a lifetime, a mature adult boomer deer. You snuggle in, touch one off as he bounces forward because he spooked at a coyote....Now you've slipped one into his paunch, and he's running away hard quartering.


So you what? Rely on your coyote bullet to kill him with a hard raking shot through the hip?



I don't have to jump off a bridge at low water to know that I'm not going to like the results....Even though someone else jumped from the same bridge at high water and had good results....

I bet you dollars to donuts that a Berger in the paunch will kill a lot quicker than a TSX. And, it's not a coyote bullet... it's a deer bullet all the way.

If you shot say 100 coyotes with a particular bullet that had also killed say... two dozen big game animals, you'd probably have a pretty good idea of what to expect, right? You should also be able to draw a pretty good comparison to another bullet based on the way it performs in the same media... right? That's what I'm saying. There's a lot of guys both on this board and afield that have shot tons more big game than I have... but I don't know anyone, and have met very few, who've shot more coyotes than I have. I know what a good 'big game' bullet does to dogs... and I know what 'match' bullets do to dogs... the Berger is definately a lot closer to the former than the latter.

Well maybe if you had introduced yourself as Randy Anderson, we could have save ourselves this discussion......

Dunno about that. I've shot probably 50 coyotes with X bullets out of my 264 mag, and probably another 20 or 30 this year with my 300RUM using NBT's....
I know that the 40 or so big game critters I've hammered with my 264 using X bullets did not exhibit the damage shown that coyotes did using the EXACT SAME LOAD. From this, I was able to extrapolate the damage done to coyotes from NBT's made them unsuitable to shoot into Big Game Animals in my particular applications.

Maybe if you'd introduced yourself as John Nosler I wouldn't have argued either....

Been fortunate enough to grow up and live in some great coyote country... they're far and away my favorite critter to pursue.

Just so I understand here, by shooting coyotes with a deer bullet you can predict how it will perform in a 200+ lb deer with far different anatomical and bone structure regardless of variables? Yet when I give an opinion on a bullet that was designed as a match bullet with a thin jacket, soft lead and loses 60% of it's weight in ballistic media based on my loading, shooting and hunting experience, I have no dog in that fight to give such an opinion, yet you do? And without ever shooting one?

Pretty much!

Give or take...............<grin>

Pretty much par for the course around here though...

Yep...

Thinking because a bullet perfoms in one animal it will in another is inexperience at it's finest. So anatomical differences mean nothing to you? Let me know when you shoot a deer, until then, your opinion holds no more water than mine. In the meantime, maybe you can recommend a bullet for elk or grizzly based on how they work on coyotes? Or maybe any potential African hunters?

Funny... when a company releases a new bullet they usually shoot a bunch of cull deer or whatever. Then they draw performance inferences regarding how it will work on larger critters... like Elk. A bull elk weighs 4-5 times what a Texas whitetail does... but they make assuptions based on the performance in said whitetail. It's not like you can run around and shoot 100 elk with the new 250 grain/.338 Accubond, so some educated assuptions must be made. A Muley buck weighs 4-5 times what a coyote does... but somehow that comparison doesn't work?

You're absolutely right. But those assumptions from the manufacturer mean NOTHING to me until I see some field reports. I don't know how many times some bullet or another has been proclaimed as "the next great elk bullet," and then actual field testing by hunters proves otherwise.

The first version of the speer grand slam was a great example. They called it an elk bullet without EVERY SHOOTING AN ELK with it. A few field reports came in with it blowing up on the shoulder because it was a little more fragile than they thought...

Kind of like the article by JB on the effectiveness of Bergers on big game?

Yup, that's a good example. I'm not disputing the effectiveness of Berger's on game, as I've never shot one before. I'm simply adding to the discussion about claims that manufacturers make without having done any testing.

They're pretty good about testing... but at the end of the day some 'educated assumptions' must be made. Whatever projectile you choose, I reckon confidence is paramount. How's it go... 90% of the game is half mental?

Or you can watch "Best of the West" and see animals from antelope to grizzly killed with the Berger's. Of course you would have to take what they say on face value just like anything else a person hasn't tried. But, they are showing it and JB is writing it. It might be worth trying. Or a person can stay with what he knows and still be happy.

The early Nosler BT's are another good example until they thickened the jacket after field reports rolled in.


For once I agree with you and his excellent report is basically what the article I posted the pics from found as well. Though I have concerns, I don't dispute anyones first hand knowledge or experience. What I dispute is the way you acted like your opinon held more water than mine when you've not shot anything larger than a coyote. Kinda like me saying my opinion on shooting elephants with a 7 x 57 holds more water than someone else's because I shot some deer with it.

Not at all... I probably sounded that way, no harm intended. It just bugs the crap out of me when guys shoot stuff down without ever actually shooting it. Sorry if I sounded like a dick.

I did get to see a black bear killed, via Berger, on that BOTW show, but in all fairness, it was 728yards out. Not that the guy didn't make a good shot, but he wasn't exactly up close and personal if the bullet failed, either. All I thought was, what if that bear didn't go down and they had to go looking for it in the brush? Would that dude feel just as good about said bullet at 7.28 yards??? With a head on shot at a moving bear...

All I can say is that I hope these bullets live up to their newly aquired hype. Cause if guys start driving them at bears at normal hunting ranges and the bullets fail to perform, things could get sporty.

RO

I'd shoot a bear with a Berger... but it'd be a big one, probably at least one of the 190 grain .30 cals. Bears are tough... and I hunt them in the same kind of country you do Otter. I have the untmost respect for bears... I've lost one that took two Accubonds (140 & 165) hard. I'd trust one that had good mass to it... but I do prefer exit wounds of stuff with claws.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Before I get to my point on your concern for Bergers blowing up out of a three groove Pacnor I have to say that I smiled at the posts from the chest beaters in the far north who are surrounded by giant grizzly bears and therefor feel a need to comment on a bullet for smaller game.

Bend,

I found an article in the Bench Rest Central forums titled " Berger bullet failure test"

You might want to read that when looking for a target bullet out of that barrel.

Ever have a grizzly come in while you were gutting a deer Don?

That'll change your opinion on what is an adequate bullet for deer in a hurry.

I reckon if I were hunting someplace where a Griz was likely to show up while I was dressing out a critter.... I would be taking a serious look at bullet design.

It definately becomes a factor....Can't help that being a "chest beater" from the "far north" having something big and nasty want to nibble on you while hunting deer influences bullet choice.

And side note, its not the "giant grizzly bears" that you have to worry about so much...Its the adolescent ones that cause the biggest problems.....

Kodiak Hntr,

The 'Chest Beating' portion of my post was in response to this post where the topic was, once again, taken by it's author and regurgitated to his own special life. Up to this point the VLD topic was only about shooting 'deer' and thats all that it should be about.



Thats what I meant about 'Chest Beating'. It was just another story of how rough and tough he is and indeed I would have to agree that he is rough and tough and knows what gun and bullet to use in his rare and interesting circumstance. However once again the topic was turned from a discussion of what could be considered a optimum bullet for 'deer' at longer ranges to an entirely different hunt.

Fair nuff.