Never heard of this before reading that one had been sold for $21,600 at a Morphy Auction !

Anyone here seen one?

Never seen one or even heard of one in nearly 50 years of collecting. Kinda like the M/21 in .405, back in the day rumors persisted as to one or two existing. Story was they were built for John Olin.

Something like a custom build would explain it.

Recall BobinNH writing about a M70 .405 WCF that he once saw in a New England gun shop.

Never catalogued by Winchester.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...r-scarcity-in-pre-64-winchester-model-70

Scroll down a bit to find Bob's post

The 405 Winchester a great round & extending 'beyond its day'! Believe it was a favorite of President "Teddy R." In speaking of "bolt rifles", the 'Aoogah' horn; "Rimmed!" Requiring more than the normal range of rimless to rimless conversions. In the Winchester Model 54, the Firm building a whole new receiver just for the "30 W.C.F." round! It's the magazine box peculiarities and feeding that's apparently 'the bugger'! I'd not be surprised to learn that Winchester might have tested such chambering. But the 'cost/benefit' ratio in terms of sales compared to the rather large alterations required... Considerably less likely even a special order! Feeding almost surely a real headache!

The couple of dimensions of such an offering, at least two fold. First, without credible provenance, "it never happened", from factory at least. Second, if not either factory or highly skilled conversion, likely just something less than 'also ran', as functioning surely a big 'if'!

Such in "seeing", always possible! Such a thing as original factory, chasm leap of faith! Where a sale, the kind of thing for me, 'hands on' functioning a must and even if performing OK, including fired shell exam, only purchasing as oddity! I'd be something over $20K less than the O/P related sale! I would have enjoyed viewing the referenced sale ad!!! Likely the kind of 'stuff', for the Winchester Collector Forum to pick apart!

Just an old man's entirely skeptical take.
Best!
John

IKSRA
You are correct about where I saw the sale advertised - inside the front cover of the WACA magazine for Summer 2021. Definitely a collectors rifle.
I have a couple of .405 rifles and would like to see how the M70 handled the rim, but that is not worth $21,600 price it sold for recently. I doubt that Morphy Auction House would misrepresent the rifle.

Hi CR and your info accounts for the WCA Rifle Forum lack of venue concerning that rifle sale. On their very own advertising revenue home territory; a blackout! The general policy, often ignored, of prohibiting Threads concerning "active auctions". In 'spades', where the advertising dollars with WACA! Hopefully, more to be heard sometime now as post-auction! Lew Luttrel would be their expert's expert I'd like to hear from concerning that rifle.

Re the 'position' of the auction house itself, 'typically' even prestigious auction houses, unless employing their own staff of experts to provide "opinions of authenticity/value", incorporate in their customer services contracts 'mile wide disclaimers'. Casting themselves as merely 'middle men services', and not endorsing or certifying 'authenticity'; blah, blah, blah. I'd be surprised if Morphy Auction House to be any different.
The wise, approaching 'golden rule' concerning claims of ultra-rare originality, without comparable quality documentation, falling into category: "Buy the rifle, not the story!" I'll stick with that!

Best!
John

I bought my .405 to hunt with and it is very effective. With solids, I am sure it will kill an elephant.
The 1895 rifle is also very handy and easier to carry than my 1886 .45-90.

Crshelton: I have heard of this chambering - but never seen one.
I'll simply refer interested parties to Roger Rules WONDERFUL book on the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 titled "The Riflemans Rifle" - Alliance Books - 1982.
Then to page 264 where he is discussing "reported chamberings" and thereon Mr. Roger Rule states that the 405 Winchester is a "verified" chambering in the pre-64 Winchester Model 70.
I don't know - I wasn't there when it was made - but I trust Mr. Rule almost explicitly when it comes to pre-64 Winchester Model 70's.
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Years ago there were reports circulating amoung the gun collecting community on the East Coast of a Winchester M/21 chambered in .405 Winchester that had been ordered by John Olin. Several dealers chased after this unicorn for countless hours/miles. A verifiable example was never found. While the M/70 may be more credible, there are lots of fakes of rare M/70's out there, I'd have to see a bulletproof provenance before considering a purchase.

All: As we have all learned over the years be wary of ANYTHING that the self proclaimed "gunwizard" burps up.
I certainly trust Mr Roger Rule MUCH more than gunwizard on this matter - and for any other matter actually.
Easy to cast aspersions but difficult to back them up very often - I implore gunwizard to provide proof that the $21,600 pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in caliber 405 Winchester is fake.
A simple request - that I am certain will not be complied with.
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

IIRC at the Cody museum there was a model 21 in perhaps 405. That was 40 years ago so the details could be off a bit though. Definitely a SxS in a centrefire cartridge.

All: As expected the self professed expert known as gunwizard has NOT provided any proof that the 405 Winchester pre-64 Winchester Model 70 is phoney or that there was never a 405 Winchester pre-64 Model 70 made as illustrated by Mr. Roger Rule.
All gunwizard could muster up in this regard is an immature and vulgar recent P/M to me, attacking me.
Take note of this.
Again I prefer to take the studied and learned Mr Roger Rules observation in this regard not the veiled contention of fraudulence by gunwizard.
I would personally opine that if someone paid $21,600.00 for a particular Rifle they would be rather certain the Rifle is worth at least that amount - at least that is what I have done over the last 50+ years of collecting pre-64 Winchester Model 70's.
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Never made any such statements the above dik head is claiming. The dumph uk can't read or comprehend.

Thanks VarmintGuy for the "Rule Book" citation @ P. 164! I'd searched, but missed the small print reference. Wider context momentarily, concurring with the prevailing salute to author Roger. A huge amount of time and resources, with canny deductions as necessary and impressively distinguishing fact from what amounts to expert opinion. A truly "scholarly work achieved!

Returning to the auction rifle. Someone spend a good deal of money (by my standard) to own such a rifle. I'd hope it to have gone to an ardent collector rather than speculative investor or... excuse me.... "artifact nut" I've been such 'nut'! Only differing that my mandated parameters were pretty much the 'wazzit milsurp Bubba specials' at $50 or so "in my days of old"! For me then, and hopefully that well heeled buyer now, exploiting 'hands-on opportunity' to possess, examine & learn in some detail. Such my ever 'gun acquisition' thrill!

Moving to the fact, spurred by technology, that nowadays almost anything can be counterfeited! If current technology exists to "print 3D guns" in homes, is it any great reach of imagination... The "creation of a well tech-crafted... Forgery? Technical challenges, overcome by good gunsmithing, the greater challenge yet of altering nomenclature. We are in an era now of requiring only "will & intent"!
Add the third vital ingredient to most forgeries... "profitability". Dillinger allegedly robbed banks because "that's where the money is". Sophisticated thieves, new ways; classic desire to get to the money/monied folks!

Last shoe, the ability to create paper document "Provenance" forgeries, laughably easy for about anyone skilled in printer tech. The "paper" underlying, as in money, capable of being yet difficult. But most "provenances" neither any special difficult to obtain paper, nor extraordinarily printing methodology employed. If our tech can copy it, our tech can reprint with whatever the content we choose! Only as a yet valid & verifiable issuing source to confirm "ultimate record source authenticity."

Concluding another rant!

Best!
John

Iskra: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do not consider them a rant.
"I" personally DO NOT know for POSITIVE whether the folks at Winchester fixed up a pre-64 Winchester or two (or twenty!) in caliber 405 Winchester.
I would loved to have seen that particular Rifle at auction, though.
And if Mr. Roger Rule endorses such a gun then it is even easier to disregard gunwizard and his (it's?) aspersions!
I carry with me to all gunshows, auctions, gunshops and estate sales a bore lite, a bore scope, a pertinent reference book and magnifying optics.
To date, I have NOT been fooled on a pre-64 Winchester Model 70.
I was fooled once many decades ago on a Winchester Model 66 Musket (with original bayonet!) in that I thought it was original finish when I bought it.
A learned Winchester did some exacting measuring of the "frame" and we concluded it had been re-done.
I still sold it for several hundred more dollars than I paid for it (sold it to Felix Bedlan out of Nebraska at the time).
I to "hope" the 405 Rifle is/was original and the owner is pleased with his purchase.
Casting UNWARRANTED aspersions on a gun a CampFirer has NOT seen is beneath norms of dignity and puzzling as to why a person would engage in such???
Immaturity seems to run rampant anymore upon this forum - I don't know why.
Thanks again for YOUR thoughts.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

gunwizard: NOW.... you are petty and immature enough to try and intimidate me and threaten me via P/M?
Well little boy, you, are incapable of either!
Be a man and post your ineffective attempts at intimidation and threats for all to see - right here!
Also this, try to gain some credibility here and please respond to my request that you prove up on your baseless aspersions regarding the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in 405 Winchester calibers authenticity!
Or don't - you have proven yourself to be NO gunwizard and simply a blow-hard!
Phu-Que.
Sheesh, what an immature and worthless bitch you are proving up to being.
And that is sad.
Try your intimidation tactics elsewhere dufous - they aren't working here!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Never said that the .405 Winchester being discussed was not authentic. Above poster has a problem with reading comprehension and has proven himself to be one of the 'fire's doosh nozzles. I don't have to prove anything to a moron like you and I certainly have better things to do with my time than bicker with an idiot. You were given a warning about defamatory statements and first amendment free speech rights (guess in your mind you have those rights and I don't, now there's petty and immature), yet you're too stupid to understand.

In Ned Schwings book "Winchesters finest The Model 21, pages 215 and 216 you will find a small writeup and a couple pictures of that M21 405 double rifle. Of course a prototype, never put in production....mores the pity.

i believe Winchester did build a 405 Winchester , i also know this that many don`t know about Ruger built one Ruger # 1 in a 225 Winchester only one, so i bet Winchester did chamber a model 70 in a 405 years ago probably just for fun .

Pic from Pre64.com.

1936

very nice 405 pre war 64 / model 70

Think that auction has two .405’s, the other was model 54. Saw another model 54 in .405 years ago but don’t remember much about it other than the hammer price. North of 7k iirc.

Nice!

The subject rifle above looking good! Low SN. Reserving further judgment. Does appear established that the .405 was offered! That, my hang up of first concern. The action photo above, does it appear there's something strange about the bolt shroud area just below the safety. Perhaps just the pix angle, but looking strange; altered! I'd never consider giving that amount of $$$$$ for it, but folks differing!

Carbinecol, would you have a link to that Model 54 in .405 you saw? I'd be very interested! Thanks!

Best!
John

@iskra: I don’t remember much about the auction. Back then I was traveling all over in search of the next big find. I do think I have a few grainy pictures of it. I’ll see if I can find them.

Interesting thread. Previously, the only 405 bolt I'd ever seen is owned by our own FlyBoyFlem on I believe a 98 action. That picture of the 70 in 405 puts pay to the rumor of course, but one has to wonder as to why it never made it into Roger Rule's book.

WYcoyote: Well I guess that about shuts up gunwizard (for now?)!
Thanks for sharing that with us open minded pre-64 Winchester Model 70 enthusiasts.
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hi Mr J! I came to this Thread, an 'instant referenced' .405 Model 70 'originality' skeptic. The info here as developed, including a minute reference in Rifleman's Rifle qne my own wider Google search results... Now convinced that there was Win factory production of such chambering beyond "experimental" into the "special order" realm. Such overcoming considerable 'inferential' data/conclusions suggesting otherwise. The reality, the factory did early-on, entertain "rimmed cartridges", such reflected in other uncataloged Model 70 production. Moreso, a couple of .22 centerfire chamberings achieving "cataloged".
An emerged rule apparently, "where the market appears to exist for such bolt rifle chamberings or influential personages involved as promoters; some achieving "reality!"
Even where not 'production', it's know that "special orders" were far more catered in an era where "hand workmanship" still very central and labor costs complimentary. The 30-30 Winchester round known to have been such actually produced in the 70! Yet these adventures, also soon failing as the rifle's popularity achieving production capabilities principally occupied with "cataloged" chamberings demand.

Whether the particular specimen, subject of this Thread, is in fact "genuine factory production", yet another issue. But central to my skepticism, the 'categorical' fact of .405 Win availability in special order context, seems reasonably supported.

///

Mr. C., Skip the Model 54 photo request. Surely I can find such! I'm already with strong inferences the .405 chambring was produced utilizing the standard receiver with clip loading bridge slots. That was my question! The Model 54 as cataloged in 30-30 utilized a singularly unique receiver! Such without the slots. That remaining unique to the singular chambering. Thanks for your kind response and efforts...

Just my wider revised 'take'.
Best!
John





]

I haven't said a thing other than you're a dumb chit that needs a reading comprehension course. Followed closely by a lesson in first amendment rights, I have the right to express my opinion no different than he does. I never said a thing about the statements in Roger Rule's book, nor any other words he keeps putting in my mouth.

gunwizard: I guess that the proof shown here-on and previously posted did NOT shut you up?
Sad man, just sad - why don't you just shut up while you are so far behind?
The First Amendment is NOT an excuse nor a rationalization for stupidity or for someone making mistakes!
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Good luck with that doosh bag, you seriously need to go phuque yourself. You keep picking a fight and then cry over getting your nose bloodied.

@ismra: No problem on the pictures. I found a few of them, but grainy is an understatement.

Of the few 54’s I own (not many), I think the 30-30 is my favorite. Not factory original, but well cared for.

Huh ?? What you going to do sue him??

I wouldn't pizz down his throat if his guts were on fire.

gunwhizzer: You add NOTHING to this site other than bitterness and immature attempts at intimidation.
It is time for you to reconsider your immature attitude and conduct - admit or correct your mistake and move on - at least that is what a man would do.
Sad.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

https://www.gunsinternational.com/s...ester+70&start_row=1&the_order=6

23K, would be cool as hell to just go and buy that 405, it's only money, and none of us are leaving here with it, if i wasn't dealing with a guy on a British double in 450 #2...................

Gunner,
I agree, but since I already have two Winchester 1895 .405s and a Simson Suhl double .405, what to do with another .405?

I hear you CRS, my mind says check to make sure stock isn't cut for receiver peep, rear bridge isn't drilled, have authenticated, measure twist, if twist will stabilize, take 400gr round nose Woodleigh Weldcores, roll on a new cannelure for proper COL, load to 2100 fps and go smack some medium to heavy game.

I get 2255 fps from a 400 Whelen and 400gr Woodleighs, bet this rifle could be loaded to 2100 with the right powder, the brass and certainly the rifle will handle the pressure, heck, we'll go pay three or four times that much for a new pickup, what's that recycled stamped steel/plastic sob worth in 5 years? ; ]

Fun to think about blowing money on what is a near one of a kind rifle.

Gunner500,
I like the 400 grain Woodies at 2100 -2200 in a .405. In fact, that is what killed the Cape buff in my Avatar My DGPH and tracker team put me within 20 yards and then my 1895 put the 400 grain Woodie just behind the rearmost left side rib and the bullet went through the heart and out between the front legs- approx 40 inches penetration. I have been using VV N133 to get the needed velocity at safe pressures and good accuracy.
Another 1895 .405 shooter I know has used N133 to take the 400 grain Woodies all the way to 2200 fps and that is plenty fast for African game. In fact, I used a 300 grain North Fork at 2250 to shoot through a water buff and it hit the ground dead. Maybe the 400 grainers are not needed if we use the NF 300 grain bullets?

Man that's some good stuff CRS, seems you've already BTDT, congrats on the animals with your 405\s, Northfork being the fine bullets they are, i'd have to stick with the 400gr Woodleigh or .411" 400gr Swift A frames and work up a 400gr Woodleigh solid load for fun, after your load quotes, the old Winchester could be brought to 2150 fps with 400 grains, i really like that velocity.

Gunner,
I will PM my 400 grain Woodie load to you for comparison with other info you may have.

10-4 CRS, they have a really nice 7x57 listed today, if had even and hint of figure in the wood it'd be very tempting.