Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors pre 64 M70 .405 WCF ?

Never heard of this before reading that one had been sold for $21,600 at a Morphy Auction !

Anyone here seen one?

Never seen one or even heard of one in nearly 50 years of collecting. Kinda like the M/21 in .405, back in the day rumors persisted as to one or two existing. Story was they were built for John Olin.

Something like a custom build would explain it.

Recall BobinNH writing about a M70 .405 WCF that he once saw in a New England gun shop.

Never catalogued by Winchester.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...r-scarcity-in-pre-64-winchester-model-70

Scroll down a bit to find Bob's post

The 405 Winchester a great round & extending 'beyond its day'! Believe it was a favorite of President "Teddy R." In speaking of "bolt rifles", the 'Aoogah' horn; "Rimmed!" Requiring more than the normal range of rimless to rimless conversions. In the Winchester Model 54, the Firm building a whole new receiver just for the "30 W.C.F." round! It's the magazine box peculiarities and feeding that's apparently 'the bugger'! I'd not be surprised to learn that Winchester might have tested such chambering. But the 'cost/benefit' ratio in terms of sales compared to the rather large alterations required... Considerably less likely even a special order! Feeding almost surely a real headache!

The couple of dimensions of such an offering, at least two fold. First, without credible provenance, "it never happened", from factory at least. Second, if not either factory or highly skilled conversion, likely just something less than 'also ran', as functioning surely a big 'if'!

Such in "seeing", always possible! Such a thing as original factory, chasm leap of faith! Where a sale, the kind of thing for me, 'hands on' functioning a must and even if performing OK, including fired shell exam, only purchasing as oddity! I'd be something over $20K less than the O/P related sale! I would have enjoyed viewing the referenced sale ad!!! Likely the kind of 'stuff', for the Winchester Collector Forum to pick apart!

Just an old man's entirely skeptical take.
Best!
John

IKSRA
You are correct about where I saw the sale advertised - inside the front cover of the WACA magazine for Summer 2021. Definitely a collectors rifle.
I have a couple of .405 rifles and would like to see how the M70 handled the rim, but that is not worth $21,600 price it sold for recently. I doubt that Morphy Auction House would misrepresent the rifle.

Hi CR and your info accounts for the WCA Rifle Forum lack of venue concerning that rifle sale. On their very own advertising revenue home territory; a blackout! The general policy, often ignored, of prohibiting Threads concerning "active auctions". In 'spades', where the advertising dollars with WACA! Hopefully, more to be heard sometime now as post-auction! Lew Luttrel would be their expert's expert I'd like to hear from concerning that rifle.

Re the 'position' of the auction house itself, 'typically' even prestigious auction houses, unless employing their own staff of experts to provide "opinions of authenticity/value", incorporate in their customer services contracts 'mile wide disclaimers'. Casting themselves as merely 'middle men services', and not endorsing or certifying 'authenticity'; blah, blah, blah. I'd be surprised if Morphy Auction House to be any different.
The wise, approaching 'golden rule' concerning claims of ultra-rare originality, without comparable quality documentation, falling into category: "Buy the rifle, not the story!" I'll stick with that!

Best!
John

I bought my .405 to hunt with and it is very effective. With solids, I am sure it will kill an elephant.
The 1895 rifle is also very handy and easier to carry than my 1886 .45-90.

Crshelton: I have heard of this chambering - but never seen one.
I'll simply refer interested parties to Roger Rules WONDERFUL book on the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 titled "The Riflemans Rifle" - Alliance Books - 1982.
Then to page 264 where he is discussing "reported chamberings" and thereon Mr. Roger Rule states that the 405 Winchester is a "verified" chambering in the pre-64 Winchester Model 70.
I don't know - I wasn't there when it was made - but I trust Mr. Rule almost explicitly when it comes to pre-64 Winchester Model 70's.
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Years ago there were reports circulating amoung the gun collecting community on the East Coast of a Winchester M/21 chambered in .405 Winchester that had been ordered by John Olin. Several dealers chased after this unicorn for countless hours/miles. A verifiable example was never found. While the M/70 may be more credible, there are lots of fakes of rare M/70's out there, I'd have to see a bulletproof provenance before considering a purchase.

All: As we have all learned over the years be wary of ANYTHING that the self proclaimed "gunwizard" burps up.
I certainly trust Mr Roger Rule MUCH more than gunwizard on this matter - and for any other matter actually.
Easy to cast aspersions but difficult to back them up very often - I implore gunwizard to provide proof that the $21,600 pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in caliber 405 Winchester is fake.
A simple request - that I am certain will not be complied with.
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

IIRC at the Cody museum there was a model 21 in perhaps 405. That was 40 years ago so the details could be off a bit though. Definitely a SxS in a centrefire cartridge.

All: As expected the self professed expert known as gunwizard has NOT provided any proof that the 405 Winchester pre-64 Winchester Model 70 is phoney or that there was never a 405 Winchester pre-64 Model 70 made as illustrated by Mr. Roger Rule.
All gunwizard could muster up in this regard is an immature and vulgar recent P/M to me, attacking me.
Take note of this.
Again I prefer to take the studied and learned Mr Roger Rules observation in this regard not the veiled contention of fraudulence by gunwizard.
I would personally opine that if someone paid $21,600.00 for a particular Rifle they would be rather certain the Rifle is worth at least that amount - at least that is what I have done over the last 50+ years of collecting pre-64 Winchester Model 70's.
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Never made any such statements the above dik head is claiming. The dumph uk can't read or comprehend.

Thanks VarmintGuy for the "Rule Book" citation @ P. 164! I'd searched, but missed the small print reference. Wider context momentarily, concurring with the prevailing salute to author Roger. A huge amount of time and resources, with canny deductions as necessary and impressively distinguishing fact from what amounts to expert opinion. A truly "scholarly work achieved!

Returning to the auction rifle. Someone spend a good deal of money (by my standard) to own such a rifle. I'd hope it to have gone to an ardent collector rather than speculative investor or... excuse me.... "artifact nut" I've been such 'nut'! Only differing that my mandated parameters were pretty much the 'wazzit milsurp Bubba specials' at $50 or so "in my days of old"! For me then, and hopefully that well heeled buyer now, exploiting 'hands-on opportunity' to possess, examine & learn in some detail. Such my ever 'gun acquisition' thrill!

Moving to the fact, spurred by technology, that nowadays almost anything can be counterfeited! If current technology exists to "print 3D guns" in homes, is it any great reach of imagination... The "creation of a well tech-crafted... Forgery? Technical challenges, overcome by good gunsmithing, the greater challenge yet of altering nomenclature. We are in an era now of requiring only "will & intent"!
Add the third vital ingredient to most forgeries... "profitability". Dillinger allegedly robbed banks because "that's where the money is". Sophisticated thieves, new ways; classic desire to get to the money/monied folks!

Last shoe, the ability to create paper document "Provenance" forgeries, laughably easy for about anyone skilled in printer tech. The "paper" underlying, as in money, capable of being yet difficult. But most "provenances" neither any special difficult to obtain paper, nor extraordinarily printing methodology employed. If our tech can copy it, our tech can reprint with whatever the content we choose! Only as a yet valid & verifiable issuing source to confirm "ultimate record source authenticity."

Concluding another rant!

Best!
John

Iskra: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do not consider them a rant.
"I" personally DO NOT know for POSITIVE whether the folks at Winchester fixed up a pre-64 Winchester or two (or twenty!) in caliber 405 Winchester.
I would loved to have seen that particular Rifle at auction, though.
And if Mr. Roger Rule endorses such a gun then it is even easier to disregard gunwizard and his (it's?) aspersions!
I carry with me to all gunshows, auctions, gunshops and estate sales a bore lite, a bore scope, a pertinent reference book and magnifying optics.
To date, I have NOT been fooled on a pre-64 Winchester Model 70.
I was fooled once many decades ago on a Winchester Model 66 Musket (with original bayonet!) in that I thought it was original finish when I bought it.
A learned Winchester did some exacting measuring of the "frame" and we concluded it had been re-done.
I still sold it for several hundred more dollars than I paid for it (sold it to Felix Bedlan out of Nebraska at the time).
I to "hope" the 405 Rifle is/was original and the owner is pleased with his purchase.
Casting UNWARRANTED aspersions on a gun a CampFirer has NOT seen is beneath norms of dignity and puzzling as to why a person would engage in such???
Immaturity seems to run rampant anymore upon this forum - I don't know why.
Thanks again for YOUR thoughts.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

gunwizard: NOW.... you are petty and immature enough to try and intimidate me and threaten me via P/M?
Well little boy, you, are incapable of either!
Be a man and post your ineffective attempts at intimidation and threats for all to see - right here!
Also this, try to gain some credibility here and please respond to my request that you prove up on your baseless aspersions regarding the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in 405 Winchester calibers authenticity!
Or don't - you have proven yourself to be NO gunwizard and simply a blow-hard!
Phu-Que.
Sheesh, what an immature and worthless bitch you are proving up to being.
And that is sad.
Try your intimidation tactics elsewhere dufous - they aren't working here!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Never said that the .405 Winchester being discussed was not authentic. Above poster has a problem with reading comprehension and has proven himself to be one of the 'fire's doosh nozzles. I don't have to prove anything to a moron like you and I certainly have better things to do with my time than bicker with an idiot. You were given a warning about defamatory statements and first amendment free speech rights (guess in your mind you have those rights and I don't, now there's petty and immature), yet you're too stupid to understand.

In Ned Schwings book "Winchesters finest The Model 21, pages 215 and 216 you will find a small writeup and a couple pictures of that M21 405 double rifle. Of course a prototype, never put in production....mores the pity.