Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General .444, .450 Marlin, or .45-70?

If you are looking for used, have checked out Bashaw Sports in Bashaw or D Henry Gunmaker in Bentley? Both are close to EDM and have websites.

One thing to consider might be the long-term survival of each round. I always buy guns thinking I will keep them forever and pass them to the next generation.......doesn't always happen but that's how I plan.

The .450 Marlin is so new it's hard to tell where it will go but I strongly suspect it will all but disappear in the next 30 years or so. It is popular now only due to the publicity and "fad" factor as it will do nothing that the .45-70 won't do. In the long run this may kill it.

The .444 looks like it may stick around, but it never was and never will be truely popular. A limited number of rifles so chambered and th similarity to the .45-70 in performance make it more of a "cult" caliber.

The .45-70, however, has been around for more than 125 years and likely wil be with us for another 150. It's always been popular and there are more variations and loads today than at any time in it's history.

The likely result will be that in 50 years the .450 Marlin will go the way of the .350 Rem Mag......ammo will be hard to come by and the round only remembered as a good idea that failed. The .444 may hang around, but ammo will be limited and hard to find due to lack of poularity. The .45-70 will live on and remain popular and easy to get......as well as being ore versitile and effective than either of the other two choices.

Just a thought......

I own a 444, here is why.

I wanted a big bore Marlin for a possible moose/black bear hunt that lies in my future. Also wanted a cartridge that could be down loaded easily for plinking and such. Didn't want, or need, a cartridge that was going to knock the snot out of me either. As mentioned above, all three will kill anything on this continent, and most likely anything on this planet.

I was able to shoot both a 444 and 45-70 before buying. Couldn't find a 450 to shoot and from the reports of recoil I'd heard, that it was noticably more than a 45-70, didn't think I needed to. Both rifles I shot were the 22" pistol grip stlye guns. Both were loaed with mild Remington factory loads. The 45-70 wasn't unbearable, but the 5 rounds I touched off were about as much as I wanted to shoot. The 444 on the other hand seemed like a good stiff 12ga and I felt like I wasn't dreading the next shot near like I was with the 45-70. Hope I don't sound like a wuss. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Also as mentioned above, I can shoot the same cast boolits I sling out of my SRH. And agree with BMT it ain't much of a reason, but it's works for me.

As to what TxRick said about availablity 50 years down the road. It's my opinion that some of these lesser used cartridges will always be able to be found, but a good reason to stock up on the makin's. Also my opinion, we'd better worry about the gun grabbers taking all our options away more than a cartridge going extinct. The 45-70 will always be more popular than the 444, but neither will go away. As for the 450...?

I shoot 265gr Hornadys on top of a healthy charge of IMR 4198 and have no doubt that this boolit will kill any critter I'll ever need it to.

If you already have a .44 Magnum, the .444 is a smart addition.

Your .444 can be downloaded to about the same as a .44 Magnum, which is a real pleasure to shoot with 240-gr bullets, and all you need for deer in the woods.

That seems to be the polar opposite of my take on the 444. The real problem IMO with this caliber is that your trying to shoot bullets for a 44 mag at higher velocities. Limited choices out there unless you like HPs or hard casts. If your going to down load a 444 all the way to 44 mag specs what you have left is a caliber with a trajectory like a rainbow that struggles beyond 100 yards.

That may have been a true statement years ago, but no longer. Remington's current 240gr 444 factory loading is up to the task. They changed the bullet after realizing the mistake. So shoot it with confidence. Hornady's 265g 444 load is a very stoutly constructed bullet which is ideal for game like ELK ... don't get much tougher than that. Again, that load was specifically designed for shooting in the 444. Reports on Hornady's 444 LeverEvolution indicate it performs well on Elk as well. Other 444 load providers include:

Conley Precision Cartridge

Grizzly Cartridge Company

These last two listed are a little pricey, but the ammunition is topnotch. If you handload, then you have plenty of choices: Hornady's 265gr Interlock FP (used in their factory loading), Hornady's 265 LeverEvolution (should be available in 2007 for handloading), Beartooth Bullets (premium hardcast lead bullets that are seldom recovered no matter what beast in North America). Beartooth has hardcast .44 caliber lead bullets in the following wts: 240, 250, 260, 265, 280, 290, 300, 325, 330, 355, and 405 grains. Most shooters agree that powder capacity is diminishing above 330 grains, but inside reasonable ranges, the 355 and 405 can work (with very stout recoil).

Check out these excellent articles on the 444 by Marshall Stanton, proprietor of Beartooth Bullets:

444 Technotes Part I

444 Technotes Part II

444 Technotes Part III

As far as the 444 going away ... that has been said since Marlin created it back in the 60's. If it were going to die, I think it would have already done so. I do agree it will never be a mainstream cartridge, and yes, not every store carries the ammo.

Nothing wrong with the 45/70 and nothing wrong with the 444 either. Most of us like our cartridge choice more because of subjective reasoning than any other as either will cleanly take any game in North America. Good shooting ...

A .44 mag or .357 mag shoot plent flat for deer at 100 yards or less.

That old wives tale about the .444 having pistol bullets just won't die. The Hornady 265 and 300, the Speer 270 Gold Dot, and the cast stuff like Beartooth are all elk, mooze and grizzly medicine. Out of the .444, they do what the 400-gr bullets do out of the .45-70, and they shoot flatter and with less recoil.

No disagreement there, but so what?

At what price is this performance achieved?

Example:

Assume 7.5 pound Marlin XLR rifles with an additional pound for scope, rings, etc., for a total of 8.5 pounds.

444 Marlin can drive a 300 grain hard Cast lead bullet to 2100 fps. Recoil in a 8.5 rifle is 26.94 foot pounds. (Assuming a 55 grain charge of powder)

45-70 can drive a 405 grain hard cast to 2000 fps. Recoil in the same 8.5 pound rifle is 39.55 foot pounds.

That's a HUGE difference in recoil. Especially when you consider that both rounds are extremely deadly to anything in North (or even South) America.

All honor to the 45-70, it is a great round, but why go there?

BMT

The .444 does with 300 grains what the .45-70 tries to do with 400 grains. BMT makes a good point about the recoil, and the .444 can kill moose, elk, grizzlies, lions, eland, etc with the Hornady 265 and Speer 270 bullets, for even flatter trajectory.

I want a double rifle in .444, like a Beretta or Rizzini.

All good cartridges, one and all. As has been mentioned, the long term availability and the current higher cost of the .450 Marlin ammunition makes it least desirable to me. The fact that a 45-70 can be loaded up over factory is great except for one thing. The 45-70 brass is not as strong as .444 brass. The .444 brass is derived from 30-06 brass. The .444 offers 2 very good jacketed bullets and numerous hard cast ones, more than adequate for any use these caliber guns will be put to. When introduced, Remington stupidly did use the 240 gr. 44 magnum bullet and the round was relegated to being just another deer cartridge. Had they introduced it with the fine 265 gr. Hornady, the popularity of the .444 would be vastly greater than it is now. My choice of the 3 would, of course, be the .444 Marlin.

The .450 Marlin was created to allow SAAMI manufacturers to duplicate what handloaders had been doing with the 45-70 from the post WW2 days.
The real issue wth the 45-70 is that its rated at 28,000psi max. Now weve got some specialty manufacturers who go ahead an load it up anyway, but you'll never a SAAMI maufacturer do this.
Marlin is a conservative company, when they introduced the 444 the 44 mag was the powerhouse cartridge. It was the only large caliber levergun available new. Remington loaded it, an it was spectacularly deady, as long as you didn't ask that bullet to do too much.
Folks still recall that loading today.
The 444 is the most flexible of the three-it shoots flattest, works well with ultralight and heavy for caliber bullets-one caveate, earlier 444s those from the 60s an early 70s often have a slow twist, and this requires pushing heavier pills real fast to stabilize em.
However, the 45-70 an the 450 are still the kings of power. A heavy .458" bullet just flattens stuff. This does come at the price of recoil. Nor is the 45-70/450 ideally suited to lighter bullets. Even runnin a 300gr. does lil to flatten trajectory.
IMO the 450-45-70 are at their best with bullets like cast performances 430 LFN blasting out at 1700-1800fps. Its like your biggest, meanest friend punchin you in the shoulder, but it hits even harder on the bizness end.
Good luck n good shootin

It makes absolutely no difference that 444 Marlin brass is derived from 30-06 brass when both the 444 Marlin and 45-70 Gov't are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns. The thinnest of 45-70 brass currently manufactured is from Winchester, which has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure. The safe operating pressure of the 444 Marlin and 45-70 Gov't in Marlin lever guns is 44,000 CUP and 40,000 CUP, respectively. Each exhibits roughly equivalent forces on the rifle action at these pressures. The area where the brass is likely to fail in both is at the case neck, where the brass worked the most. In either at that area the brass is about the same thickness. There is no evidence that 444 Marlin brass will last any longer than 45-70 brass when both are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns. The so-called stronger brass of the 444 and 450 Marlin over the 45-70 makes no difference when these cartridges are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns.

This is false.

When both the 45-70 Gov't and 444 Marlin are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" (as in equivalent trajectory) as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.

If you want a real freight train type of power, try a box of these. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bullet drop-trajectory is more n a factor of sectional density an bullet speed. Bullets with larger frontal area, eg; .458" vs .429" will shed velocity faster than their smaller brethren.
S.d. does have a lot to do with how well a bullet cuts through the air and resists gravity-that 300gr .429 is one heckova lot sleeker than that 300 gr. .458, but its not the full story.
We also have to deal with bullet wobble, every bullet will wobble some, those that best match rifling twist, concentricity, speed will waste the least energy in flight.
Other factors include bullet profile, and quality of construction.
Agree that at most levergun distances, drop with the 444 vs 450/45-70 is not dramatically different, however that equation changes every time one or more variables are changes.
Firing at SAAMI pressures, with current factory fodder, the .444 shoots flatter than the 45-70.
Good luck n Good shootin

See my prior post regarding recoil . . . . .

Dem's is fun to shoot, but not needed unless charging Cape Buffalo are on the menu.

BMT

Can't imagine dem could ever be mistaken as fun to shoot.