Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting why would anyone use a 223 for deer with all the other cartridges out there

Doesn't take as much "finesse" to kill a deer with a .223 as it does a squirrel with a .22 long rifle and nobody seems to have a problem with that.

SeaRun got it right. You can't legislate stupid.

A contractor told me about hunting deer with a .223 AR with a 30 round magazine. He said that he saw a bunch of deer at 450 yds. and by the time he fired his 20th shot, his deer dropped.

I don't know how much collateral damage he inflicted, but I just wanted to smack him. However, it would not have done any good. He thought my reaction to his story was uncalled for.

Norm

...That goes for ANY cartridge or caliber. I would add, that a better bullet is more critical when using the smaller hammers, IMO.

10-4 on that, I know a guy who went 1/8 with a 30/06, and am sure I could think of worse if I applied myself.

My uncle switched from his 7mag to a .223 for crop damage deer on our farm this year. None got away, but of course, he can shoot.

Had big plans to blood mine (.223) on deer this past season, but work conspired against me, and I ended up with no rounds and less hunting time than expected. Will have to wait till next year for hands on experience.

Carl

My guess is the people so against the .22 CF's have never seen a deer shot with with a .22 cal bullet built for the task. It's oh-so-simple but some try to make things hard.

Yep, legal here too.

I hear tell the people pre Columbus thought that the world was flat and that 22 centerfires couldn't take game out either....

They were wrong on both accounts as some of us know from experience.

Dober

Does seem like kind of a stunt to me, but hey if it's legal then it's legal. Just know the limitations of whatever your weapon is, and go huntin'!

-jeff

I have no doubt of that....

My grandfather was born with a broken colar bone which he never had fixed.Hence,he didn't like recoil much.He started off with a 30/06,said to hell with it,and moved to a Remington 141 in 35 Remington.

In 1951,he bought the very first Remington 722 in 222 Remington to come to our area.I have an old picture around here somewhere,dated 1951,with Grandpa holding the rifle and a nice buck he killed with it.My father,in diapers,is in the foreground.

When my dad got old enough to hunt,he used the 222.It was his favorite for years.He took it over so much,that he bought his dad a German Weatherby Varmintmaster in 224 Magnum to replace it.Grandpa liked that just fine,and killed all his bucks with it for the last 15 years he hunted.

My dad later tried 22 Hornets,22/250s and even a 17 Remington.Everything died,believe it or not.I don't recall ever hearing about Grandpa loosing a deer with the 222 or 224,but of course he was a fantastic shot who always shot his bucks right between the eyes or through the base of the ear.

I've hunted a bit with a 22/250 stoked both with regular 55 grain PSPs and Nosler 60 grain Partitions.Doesn't strike me as being much different than a 243.

The next rifle I have built will be a 223 AI or 22/250 AI with 1-8 twist,for use with the heavy Barnes bullets.Ought to be the ultimate low recoil deer rifle.

WB.

I've really, really tried to stay quiet on this but some insist on comparing the .223 to the .243.

In the first place the "normal" bullet weight used in the .243 for deer is 100 grains while the .223's heaviest bullet is likely the 60 grain Nosler.

I know.....there are several .224" bullets that weigh 70-75 grains, but very few "normal" .223's have a slow enough twist to stabalize such a long bullet.

That's not "just 10 grains more bullet" as several have stated.....it's more like a 67% heavier bullet and some 40 grains.

The second point is that, other than the Nosler, most .224" bullets are NOT designed for big game. They are explosive "varmit" bullets. The 100 grain .243 is designed with deer in mind and is intended to hold together and penetrate.

Lastly.....you assume that everyone considers the .243 to be a "proper" deer round. I don't. It will work....and has done so for years, but in my mind it too is an "expert's" weapon. It must be placed very carefully and cannot be considered a true all-around deer gun.

Not saying it won't kill deer (too many have hit the dirt over the years to say that), but just like the .223.....it has to be used with caution. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but the small bore rifles, though they can be effective, have limitations that larger rounds don't have.

I hunt wv, high deer density and generous bag limits, I own 5 223's, and for years used them during doe seasons and for shooting deer on crop damage permits. In all have probably taken 100 or more with the lowly 223.
You have a rectangle approx 6x10" which you can lung shoot a deer and miss major bones, and you know that going in, so what disadvantage does the 223 have then? can the deer tell a difference in the diameter of the bullet that takes out they're lungs? do they exit? does that matter? NOPE, not in the slightest, if deer are fat any exit hole within reason can be blocked by the fat under the hide, when that happens, one deer doesn't leave any different blood trail than the other.
Deer run small here, 125 is a nice one, and I've taken dozens with a 6mm PPC and a 55 gr nosler ballistic tip, and the higher SD of a 55 gr bullet makes the 223 even better. The key to harvesting deer with the 223
DISAPLINE, MARKSMANSHIP, COMMON SENSE. Those who tout respect the game use a cannon, do not exhibit these traits, so they probably need a 300 mag, I don't even own one, the absolute best deer caliber I have found is a nosler 115 gr ballistic tip at 3000 fps. Deer are considered light thinned skinned medium game,
the 60 gr partitions, 55 gr trophy bonded bear claws, the 53 gr TSX, 64 gr win PP, and the PMC 64 gr sp are made for and reccomended for light thin skinned medium game.
RR

I'll put my hand up as one who tried to compare 243 to 223. I quite agree with what you've stated. My point went back to the original topic, and my take on the topic was this:

Here's the 243, the 6mm, and a bunch of other cartridges with minimal recoil and yet SOOOOO much more to shove at the deer. Why pick the 223?

Let me put forward a summary as I see it so far:

1) Unlike some of the previous visits to this topic that I've seen since 2001, I see a larger majority of posters willing to agree that 223 Rem is a viable cartridge. At least most folks are not willing to shout down the 223 maven and start with the verbal tar and feathering.
2) Folks have been able to come up with reasonable reasons-- birth defect, severe injury, residence in certain parts of Texas, etc. where a 223 Rem becomes a reasonable option.
3) No one is likening the 223 Rem to the 22 LR anymore, at least not directly.
4) So far I have not seen any signs of frothing at the mouths of folks on either side. Yes, the 223 Rem may be a bit of a stunt, but so is bow hunting, and muzzleloading. If we all were that stunt shy, we'd stay home and watch college football.
5) The idea of the 223 Rem being a "finesse" round is a canard. Everyone should be using the same sort of finesse on picking their shots.
6) Even the 223 mavens want to hedge and talk about premium bullets.

Does this mean that:
1) The deer are becoming less immune to 223 Rem?
2) The 223 Rem has somehow improved?
3) The hunters are becoming more tolerant?

What I find interesting is that no one can still answer the topic's question without resorting to an argument based on specialized circumstances.

If you have a life threatening condition. . .
If you are small and young and weak. . .
If you live in certain part of Texas. . .
If you use premium bullets. . .
etc.

What I find still find absent in this or any other discussion of 223 Rem is a definitive well-supported general statement that the 223 Rem should be a deer hunter's first choice. I don't think one is forthcoming. Can we at least agree on that?

I must admit, this time around, I at least went down to the bench and started reading my own loading notes to see why I dropped the idea back in 2002.

Calling it a stunt is quite laughable at best...

I argue this emotionally and I should just stay out of it. You can only tell folks so much and if they still choose to not listen then...

I've just BTDT so many, many times and for someone to tell me it is a stunt just speaks volumes...

Get a properly constructed bullet and put it in the engine room. It is that simple. Bullets appropriate are everywhere. But for the skittish ones I'd suggest the 53 or 60 TSX, the 60 NP, of the 64 PP.

Guess what made this bang flop?
This deer got folded up so quick it wasn't even funny. Lil bro though he missed it was down so quick. That is shoulder bone you see on the exit side...


You know, I'll just keep using stuff I know works and each of us make our own choices. If I came off a bit harsh on this subject I apologize as folks on here kill me sometimes...

Take care and have a good weekend fellas...

I'd bet most people could not look at deer carcass and tell whether it was shot with a .22 CF using a bullet designed for deer or a .243 using a 100 grain bullet.

Great pic Gmoney. Looks like it was shot with a .270. No way could a .223 pull off a stunt like that. (grin)

Uhhh...dont want you to confuse anyone....heavier longer bullets require a faster twist not slower one.

The only calibers I have seen work more erratically than the .243 Win have been the fast 22s. But, as Mule Deer correctly pointed out to me that was with bullets of soft construction. I have a friend who does use his .223 for deer and hasn't had a problem ( it has been awhile since he has used it for that purpose however.) Now-a-days with the premium bullets out there I think it would be useful, but I have no experience with them in that caliber.

Careful where you step there. While many Yup'ik and Inupiat Eskimoes I know use the 223 a lot, especially for seals, caribou, etc, I know of none that condone its use as a killer of walrus; bears maybe - it and the 22 Hornet, etc have better distancing power than does a spear! (One had to be brave and showed bravery by killing a bear with a spear. It wasn't so different enticing the bear close enough to shoot him in the ear with the little 22s. There are no medals for bravery for not being scared of one's gun!) The folks I know who have had to defend themselves against bears with 223s at close range have usually told their tales with a certain amount of surprise that it has worked however.

I know of no Eskimo who considers a 223 adequate for walrus where even a 30-06 is marginal with even the best bullets. (A big bull walrus outweighs a large Cape Buffalo, has thicker hide, and heavier bones, especially around the skull and neck which is where they are shot.) Many Natives use a 338 or 375 for walrus if they have access.

As concerns the 223 for deer though, I have no qualms about using one for deer (caribou) in the open. Is it my first choice? No, but neither is a 6mm which I have used to take dozens of caribou with. Better (read more solid) hitting seems to start with the slightly bigger 140 grain bullets in the 7mm-08/7X57s.

A lack of good bullets for deer in the 223?



Do these bullets, which were recovered from the back side of the same caribou look like varmint bullets? They both went through one shoulder blade before stopping - and they are plain old Winchester Power Points. Winchester markets them in factory ammo and components as a "deer" bullet. Go figure. They sure do work better than varmint bullets IME (though varmint types will kill easily with careful placement.)
There are a number of even better deer bullets for the 22 CFs than this PP.

Heck, I have seen a 30-30 bullet blow up and stop after striking an otter (which died BTW). Does than mean it's questionable for deer? (It has killed moose very well IME - with a better bullet, of course.)

I have not killed much more than half a dozen "deer" with a 22 CF and all died if not all were impressive in shot placement, proper bullets, and quick kills. The only "deer" (caribou) I have ever seen run off wounded was one hit with a 180 grain bullet from a 300 Win Mag. A Silvertip was placed into the stomach - judging from the way he humped up- as he angled up the side of a snow bank. We could not track him among the many other tracks nor did we find him in the boulder field he escaped into with the others. And I tend to rate 300 Mags as overkill for 200-ish pound animals.

Klikitarik said:

"As concerns the 223 for deer though, I have no qualms about using one for deer (caribou) in the open. Is it my first choice? No, but neither is a 6mm which I have used to take dozens of caribou with. Better (read more solid) hitting seems to start with the slightly bigger 140 grain bullets in the 7mm-08/7X57s."

That's about all I meant with my "stunt" comment- that there are better things, so a person using a .223 is intentionally giving up some XXX with a .223.

XXX in this case being both effective range AND shot angles that can be taken. I've given up one for the other when chosing a caliber/bullet combo, but to give up BOTH for no good reason = a bit of a stunt in my book.

But we are all grown-ups here and if it's legal and floats your boat then have at it! Obviously, a .223 will kill a deer.

-jeff

All I'm mostly reading here is folks that ain't done it and have no idea. Lots of Outdoor Life readers saying what is 'Normal', so funny.

I'm thinking that anyone that ain't shot a deer with a 223 and/or proclaims it a "stunt",should probably stay out of the conversation...It works with good bullets at most any angle...Put the bullet in the right spot...
This argument is kinda dumb....