Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Kimber wood in Alaskan rains

Kimber states that their 84M "wood stocked" model can take anything that Alaska can dish out with no loss of zero, no swollen wood stock, no frozen firing pins, etc., so writer Cameron Hopkins takes a 308 on an 8 day water bath, it does its job, and he questions at the end whether a synthetic ss would do any better. (GUNS MAGAZINE March 2003). The stock is hand rubbed oil walnut. Does anyone know what type of finish Kimber uses or is it proprietary? What would they do to seal the interior, the inletting? It was quite the claim they made but it held up.
I rub Acraglass into the interior of any factory wood stock I buy(not referring to a bedding job), the buttstock under the pad, under the grip cap, checkering, and then coats of wax on the rest of the exterior. Has anyone used McCloskey Man O'War Spar Marine Varnish or Acraglass to seal either the inside or exterior like this? Given the cost of a 84M, I did not think such a labor intensive job on a stock that held up as this one did, plus it was handsome, would be so achievable. This Kimber brought to mind the linseed oil topic on here, which maybe no one wants to tackle again, but it was a tough test that this stock survived. I think I still would prefer a synthetic for such conditions given the cost of such a hunt. FYI

Quite a claim. 8 days? If you send me one I'll gladly put it to the test.

There are lots of wood stocks in use here and if you work at it you can keep them from swelling, cracking, etc. One of my hunting pards makes me cringe when he shows up with one of his vintage Winchesters. Why? They are sure pretty, but I usually have other things I'd rather be doing on my hunts than babying my stock. I'll reserve walnut (and 19th century lever actions) for the basin & range or for the display rack.

Ratltrap
Only if I were a rich man would I subject such a stock to those conditions. The cost of a Kimber is not extravagant, but I too, hate to see fine wood, maybe not swollen, but dinged to hell and back, which the writer in this case admitted happened.

Boss:

Ya really need to get Sitka Deer's opinion. He lives in Ak and is an expert on wood and stockmaking, And one of his favorite finishes is epoxy resin with Varethane over top. If anyone would it would be him

Sitka Deers technique is to heat the stock in an oven to 150 F, then smear epoxy over the entire surface of the stock, barrel channel as well. The wood will really suck in the epoxy. You sand it down, and re-aply the area's you sanded too much. Then apply mulstiple coats of oil.

I used just that finish on a semi-inletted stock Sitka gave me, and spent over 2 weeks in near constant rain looking for moose last fall. Didn't connect with moose unfortunately.

The stock held up great, I took it to the range a few times during and after the season and it would always put 3 shots well under 1" at 100 yds at the same poi each time.

Boss
The finish these guys are talking about is something I have been working on, testing, talking to epoxy manufacturing chemists about and generally spending a lot of time on for a lot of years... it works and there are few options that work even close to as well.

To start with, using a really good sealant in the barrel channel and a standard finish on the rest of the stock is a very bad idea! The channel is sealed, so it will not accept water, not so the outside. The outside will absorb water, swell and curve the stock up into the barrel, affecting pressure points if you use them, eliminating float if you go that way.

As Paul said I get the stock hot and use very slow-setting epoxy which I work into the wood, starting in the thinnest areas first, followed by end-grain areas, and then the rest. By keeping the areas wet while the stock cools a fair amount of depth is reached by the epoxy, sealing it perfectly. After the first coat is cleaned up any desired finish is applied over the top.

My two favorite finishes are Tru-oil and varathane 66, but anything you like should work. The beauty of these finishes is not just that they look like the oil finishes they are, but the ease with which they are repaired is amazing.

Why hunt with an ugly plastic gun when a gorgeous piece of wood will work as well?

There is another finish which I have just gotten around to testing which I must now admit is as good as epoxy for sealing out water... super-glue. On the test 1" cube I made of walnut to test the finish there was zero weight gain from water after a couple hours in a steam box.

I have been told by stockmakers who have used this, Paul Dressell being the first to tell me as I remember it, that it will shrink the wood. This means the wood must be left slightly proud of the metal before finishing.

I have typed the recipe in here repeatedly, and I suspect there would be more info, if you are interested, in a number of threads in archive.
best to you
art

PS Paul did the plain blank proud, even pulled an alchemist's trick changing the claro to Bastogne! KKalaska also finished a myrtle stock, his first, with the system and it is absolutely gorgeous.

Sitka deer
I found your comments on the linseed oil thread informative and actually enjoyed the science behind your positions. I understand the need now to seal inside and out and then oil. My ideas partially came from an old Gun Digest article by Bob Hagel, "The Hunting Rifle Stock." He recommended Brownell's Acraglass on the inletting stating, "will effectively seal the inletting with a single coat for all time." For the outside, he mentioned one could do a hard epoxy finish like on Weatherby rifles but went on to say that he preferred many very light coats of Linspeed and to, also, do the checkering which he stated a lot of stockmakers would "scream over." I do not know how stockmakers feel in general about that today but he felt checkering by its very nature would soak up water like a sponge and that one should use a stiff toothbrush to apply. Mr. Hagel did a lot of hunting up there. Your method certainly eliminates the variables which is what we try to do with our rifles and loads. Some of the old advice was to apply several coats of car wax each day that you hunted in the rain and one suggested electrician tape applied to the barrel channel. We do have torrential downpours during hunting season in the Sun Belt and most just take for granted(the great majority here hunt with wooden stocks still)that their POI is not affected. Then again, a lot of them stay home and don't hunt in the rain. I still like Kane Chaps for the dings if it is a nice stock though I rarely ever see another hunter using them. It's more about the hunt down here than the shooting because your typical Southern hunter is still in thick woods with short range shots. However, some of us head West and North where the bad weather could mess up a stock and a shot.
It is information like this that makes this site so useful. Thanks

P S Found your method and products used under Gunsmithing- "Re: Linseed Oil" date of 02/22/01 5:54 PM for those who want to read or review again. I am a believer now.

boss
Thank you for the kind words and I hope it helps...
art

Sitka Deer's byline says it all. For him "Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun". I like bluing and walnut as much as anyone, but at the risk of being excommunicated from this board I will say that the guns I take afield are at that point tools. Its great if they are pretty, but the only requirement is that they accomplish the task efficiently with a minimum chance of failure. It is also nice if they come out of it looking pretty much like they did when we went in.

I don't doubt that SDs stocks are durable and beautiful, on the other hand, I do quite a bit of work on boats around SEAK so I'm well aware that fiberglass and stainless steel handles this climate much better than wood and carbon steel - no matter how well protected. I recall a post by JJHack concerning a stainless synthetic rifle of his that was left on a beach in Prince William Sound or some such rainhole for a year or more. Apparently it wasn't much harmed by that treatment and if I recall correctly he still uses that rifle. Certainly an extreme case (and I haven't seen a Kimber after it spent a year on a southest beach) but if I ever see that kind of performance from a blued & walnut gun I will definitely get a prettier gun.

I will make it a point to try some of SDs treatments on some teak and mahogany!

Sitka,

Does the wood need to be kiln dried before it will soak up the epoxy or will the heating process let non-kiln dried wood absorb as well?

HogWild

Hogwild
There is NO advantage to kiln drying gun wood, EVER! Kiln drying wood is simply a means to a cost-effective end. It is NOT done to produce a better product. (This from someone who patented a better process for kiln-drying which is used in many western lumber mills)

The absorption of the epoxy is aided by the vaccuum created by the air in the wood as it shrinks while cooling. Different woods absorb different amounts of epoxy, and you can guess very closely which will absorb most, simply by the weight of the wood...

Capillary action also helps draw a bit, but because the viscosity of the epoxy is so high it is limited.
art

Very interesting, Sitka. I have a couple of nice wood stocked rifles and reading your posts has enlightened me.

I also found that Super Glue or Zap-a-Gap does a nice job on repairing epoxy type finishes (ie Browning). The Zap-a-Gap (I believe) has a bit of filler and is easier to work, IMO.

I use it for securing my fly line to leader nail knot connections also. It is a little slower drying and has an accelerant available for speeding things up, if necessary.

JB
I don't believe the zap-a-gap style cyanoacrylate glues use a filler, but rather simply make the stuff more viscous. The accelerant works on any of the superglues and quite well. It works by changing the pH at the surface which kicks the cure.

In a pinch, mix a little baking soda in water and mist it on your glue. This will allow you to use superglue to glue very porous materials that the glue would not ordinarily adhere to because it gets wicked away before it cures.
art

I received a note earlier today about a distributor in the US. Apparently Cold Cure is manufactured in the US of A-website is:

http://www.systemthree.com/index.html

For those interested.

Karnis
I have used cold cure without any final problems, but it is yellower than I like, and has a shorter pot life than other epoxies I prefer. On walnut color is not a problem, but maple does not like the cold cure.

I have and use cold cure for a number of things, but not for finish anymore.
art

Sitka,

I used the baking soda idea on R/C airplanes quite a few years ago, it always worked well.

I didn't think of it (old age).

JB

The baking soda/water approach works very well! Just remember that the baking soda will turn white in a crack. I prefer to use the medium viscoity Cyanoacrylate and the accelerant in layers to build up. Works better on small dings and checks in the the stock and remains reasonably clear. I use a file almost immediately after it kicks to remove excess. Sandpaper, even on a block, tends to wallow out the area around the fill.

Mike
You are right about the stuff turning white in a crack, which is why I use it on top of the applied glue, rather than on the substrate I'm gluing. The accelerant IS the right thing...

A good sized hole is easy to fill by stuffing it with ebony sawdust in lifts and soaking it with the water-thin stuff...
art

OK, I'm totally confused. I've got a new Remington Mountain Rifle with a laminated stock.
What should I do to the finish on it to protect it?
Do I need to strip the factory finish? I really don't want to.
I want to protect it and make it as dull as possible.
Thanks
Bob

Bob
Sorry, but what I am talking about is for new previously unfinished wood. To do a factory stock stripping is required, which for me is nearly the equivalent of building from scratch, if done properly...

The laminate stocks are relatively stable as manufactured, though heavier and problematic to checker properly, but probably the best way to go if you want stability in a factory stock. Stripping your stock would be a pain, guaranteed!
art