Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Howell's "Cartridge Conversions" book

Does this book include the relevant (CIP and SAAMI) pressure standards for the standard cartridges covered? I understand it does include such details for the case dimensions.

Why do I ask? I'm building a rifle on one of the less strong single shot actions, and I'd like to find a standard cartridge whose base and pressure are within what I think reasonable limits for this gun.

The .30-40 is as much cartridge as I think prudent for the action. I was hoping one of the older medium bore British jobs, such as the 400/360 or 400/350, might give a bit more oomph with no more stress on the breech. Perhaps these oldies are not even covered in CIP standards.

The best I can think of right now for a medium bore is the old .38-72 Winchester, which I suspect can be formed from .405 brass. Loaded to Krag pressures, it ought to do.

Kens book is a great reference for dimensions, but it doesn't include pressure information.

Regards,
Scott

You may find what you need to know in the A-Square book "Any Shot You Want", they have a table (somewhere oround page 164, if I remember correctly) which lists pressures in psi and CUP for a fair amount of calibers.

As you mention this book and as this site is more concerned with literature than with shooting topics, I need to write what I think about this book.

I had a lot of difficulties to read the book (I am not talking about the reference part where I missed the context related 6mm Norma BR as the twin of Remington's 6mm BR and found the 7,62x39 twice), and, in fact, I did not finish it.

When I buy a book on cartridge conversion, I want to read about cartridge conversion and not about AutoCad. I do not need anecdotes and funny remarks a dozen, and I do not like the author to hop into nearly every page to demonstrate his whit, his humor and his superior personality and jugement.

I am sorry, but I have never seen a book where the writer misregards his (self manifested) guideline " Make Every Word Tell " so severely as I found it here, and somehow Stevenson's two-sided doctor comes to my mind when I read the relaxed and fun-to-read postings here in this site.

In spite of this statement, I'd answer the question "would you buy this book again ?" with "yes" as I appreciate the amount of work invested and the information collected, straightened and put down in a spartanic but clear manner.

This is my opinion, and now beat me up.

Too bad for me about there not being any pressure data, but I did figure pressure data was a bit beyond the scope of the book. Actually, I see I got the title wrong, it is "... Custom Cartridges." The "Cartridge Conversions" is a different book, also sold by Huntingtons. Apologies to Mr. Howell.

waitaminit: I see no reason for anyone to "beat you up" for expressing an honest opinion. You did conclude by saying it is a worthy, if sometimes wordy, reference. I believe the "Cartridge Conversions" book may be the one I'll get. I recall reading it gives step by step instructions on how to replicate something like a 400/350 Rigby using available modern brass. Anyone here care to comment on the quality of Bertram brass? I've read it is spotty.

Other options for my project which have occured to me are the old .35 Winchester (probably runs at a higher pressure than the Krag) and the 9.5x74R wildcat, for which dies are available from 4D (make the pressure whatever you want, for there is no standard).

The QuickLOAD internal ballistics simulator gives CIP data for many cartridges, including old British NE cartrdiges, but there are enough typos in its databases I'm leary of using them.

Does anyone know where one can get a copy of the CIP standards for cartridges? Does the CD-ROM from SAAMI have a copy of them? I know SAAMI's printed volumes do not have any CIP data, but I've read SAAMI and CIP have agreed to accept each others standards.

Well, I'm certainly not going to beat-up on you, my friend, and I hope nobody else does. I knew when I published that book that somebody wouldn't like it, and for eight and a half years, I've wondered who wouldn't like it and why. Now I've heard your mostly honest opinion, and I appreciate it.

I say "mostly honest" because I don't think you're being honest with yourself when you ascribe certain motives to me that have never existed in my mind and had nothing whatever to do with why I wrote that book as I did. The imagined intent that you describe with " ... to hop into nearly every page to demonstrate his whit, his humor and his superior personality and jugement" comes from within your mind, not from mine.

FWIW, all the things that you deplore about my book are some of the things that many other readers have singled-out most often for their specific approval. The "whit" (wit) and humor that you deplore deserve special mention here, for the great good that they have brought to several couples. More often than I can count, readers have reported the same situation and the same result:

The husband, reading my book, chuckles or laughs. The wife asks why -- he reads aloud whatever has amused him -- the wife then has to read the book herself. "Hmm! I didn't realize there was so much, so interesting, about guns and shooting" was a common remark from the wives.

The usual result has been that the wife became a good bit more tolerant of her man's "weird" hobby. The best report that I've received came from the reader whose wife (a) read the book, (b) got interested in shooting, (c) went shooting with him, (d) got a couple of prairie dogs at long ranges, and (e) now not only has her own rifle but also joins him in every session at the loading bench. The husband told me that as a result, he and his wife had drawn closer to each other than they'd been since their marriage several years earlier. I like that!

In perspective, I'm sorry that you don't like what you don't like, but I'm not sorry that I wrote the book the way that I wrote it.

As my own editor and publisher, I wrote that book in a way that I enjoyed. For eight and a half years, all the many readers who have told me what they thought of it have been very complimentary. I was beginning to get a bit nervous about that, knowing that somebody out there wouldn't like it, for some reason or other. Thanks for settling my nerves!

Ken
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
art

2525, Zager and Evans fan are we? Good choise...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bull.....

I should add, in the name of candor and full disclosure, that several readers have expressed their individual preferences that my book didn't satisfy. Several wished that I'd included load data. Others thought that I should've had a section on barrel-tenon threads. Still others thought that the book should've included chamber dimensions. A few thought that the book should've been published as loose pages in a ring binder. Some were mystified and disappointed to find that some well known wildcats are missing from the book -- simply because I couldn't get reliable dimensions for them.

None of these readers criticized the book harshly for lacking these individual personal preferences. They obviously viewed the book as a product of a man's work, with real-world limitations on both the man and the book, and accepted it for what it is instead of condemning it for not being done in the ways that they would've done it.

Sorry, Bullwnkl, but no. I had to use google to find out what "Zager and Evans" meant. The 2525 is just a reference to the old Stevens target cartridge.

Ken, please don't assume I'm complaining about the contents of your work. I've seen many favorable references to it. As I said above, I didn't expect there would be pressure data in it. For designing a custom case, the pressure at which the parent case operates is generally not an issue. Trying to make a 65 ksi wildcat from soft .30-30 brass would be a bad idea, but you wouldn't need to mention that in your book. A copy of the CIP CD-ROM is probably what I need. It appears the Birmingham Proof House is selling one, but it looks to be in French. Sigh. I think I'll get some single, empty brass from Huntington's and estimate the pressures using QuickLOAD and published factory ballistics.

Karl

@ Karl
As you did not explain how the cartridge will be shaped, I am not shure if I understand correctly what you need.
In addition to the A-Square book mentioned there are some pressure data in the Lyman Reloading Book.
For cartridge dimensions, you find a lot of information in "Cartridges of the World" and in Wolfe's ton heavy "Wildcat Cartridges" combo.

I own two German books with looong lists of cartridge dimensions (I think they ar CIP as they are an addendum to one of our splendid gun laws) and a list with max pressures.
If I had your e-mail address, I would send you a copy of the relevant cartridge data.

@ Ken
Obviously it is my very personal view of your book and I should have left out the "superior personality". Just to recheck my position, I gave your book a try again and found nothing to correct my posting: there seems to be a certain chemistry between writer and reader causing likes or dislikes.
And I find there is too much wrap and too little contents: high expectations are deceived.
You admit that something got wrong with the title of the book. After reading your reply, I think you should have it undertitled "A Family Book".

Anyway, I really did not want to hurt or insult you (and I did not, as far as I understand your answer) - take my lines as a kind of feedback and please bear with me and my struggling for the appropriate words.

wit/whit: As I hate (may well be replaced by: am too lazy) to look up words in a dictionary, I found "wit" a bit skinny and entered the "h". Interestingly, two days before I received a moderator's note that the netikette of the board allows any criticism towards opinions and statements, but never ever towards missspels (I elaborated a bit on "Schuetzen" and "Scheutzen", but without an "I-know-better-attitude").

On page 436 of your book I find "6mm PPC (FI version)" and "6mm PPC (US version)" - is my assumption correct that the pictures/dimensions have been interchanged ?

P.S.: I misspelled "misspell", but I like "missspel" more than "misspell" - it's funnier.

@all
On page 492 of "the book" I find the Swiss "7,5x55mm" and "fire-form .284 Win brass with inert filler". A closer look a the .284 drawing (page 192) shows
- a rebated rim
- a head diameter of .5008" compared to .4961" GP11
- case dia at neck .4748" compared to ".4567" GP11.
How will it chamber ?

I wanted to make a test with my K31 but could not get hold of a .284 Winchester shell.

Now I ask if someone can please send me this case (and, if possible, a 6mm PPC (US version), page 436, as well, as I'd like to have it compared to the 6mm Norma Benchrest, not mentioned in "the book") - I'll pay the expenses.

Thank you.

No, my friend, you haven't hurt or insulted me. You do puzzle me, though -- I don't understand the apparent bitterness of your hostility, which seems to me clearly to have sprung from something other than the objections that you cite to my book. I have a couple of favors to ask, if you will be so kind as to indulge me with a couple of requests.

First, I do not want that copy of my book to remain in your possession any longer -- so I will be grateful, and will send you the full retail price of the book, if you will be so kind as to send it to me (Dr Kenneth E Howell; 407 Spring Street; Stevensville, MT 59870) as soon as possible. It's weirdly special -- the only copy (so far) out of 5,000 that has to come back for a refund.

Also, when you publish your book, done the way you think that I should've done mine, please permit me to buy a copy. I'm confident that I'll be able to learn much from it.

Thank you!

Dr. Howell, you are a gentleman and a scholar.