Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Is the 45ACP a myth?

I am/was a big fan of the 1911 in 45ACP. It is the only handgun I currently own. And I have engaged in bicker fests over it from time to time. I loathe the 9mm.

But in all reality is the 45ACP really really really "all-that"?

I haven't read a handgun magazine in about 10 years but back then I read something about the one shot stop research done by somebody... based on anecdotal data from cops and their shoot outs with the robbers.

Seems like the % one shot stop on the 45 was in the low 60%

Not much better than the cursed goose stepping 9mm.


What is the truth once the emotional hysteria good and bad is set aside as concerns the 45ACP?

According to that one shot stop "survey" I recall the 357 mag was the single best stopper.

That stuck in my mind. Which makes me wonder why the 357 sig has not taken the handgun/police/military/self-defense world by storm? It comes close to the 357 mag and it comes in a hi cap auto. Seems perfect.

I really would appreciate you'alls input.

Thanks

FWIW - The 357sig has been popular and I do see a lot of them around, Having owned a couple (3) 45's and shot a 357sig I still like the 45 - its easier for me to hit stuff with it - both in a move to cover and static position.

IMO - The 45 is all that because of 1 thing - a .451 hole (in a defensive situation) sure does a heck of a lot of persuadin'. Either the perp is staring at it wondering just how big it is - or like others have said "when you start out with what others expand to - nothing to worry about"

I have seen those 357 mag 1 stop shot articles, and the 357 sig is trying to repeat that.

The 1911 45ACP has kinda turned into the mauser. Hell of a weapon, timeless design. Now everybody and their brother is doing a custom off of one and charging some serious coin too. You have both campt -tactical (Wilson CQB, Les Baer) and the BBQ (Jardine, Valtro) - the mags are full of them. But as the ban goes away I think the "wonder nines" are gonna come bach into vouge. Hi-cap and all - all the attention went to the 45 in the last 10 cus if I have to have a pistol and it can only hold 10 - why not 8 throwing a 1/2 oz of lead and copper?

I love the 45 particularly in the 1911. That being said my next 45 will prob be in a Sig, that 1911 is a pain to CC in the heat down here - looking for something a bit smaller and in a 45 if you get shorted than a commander barrel it seems to cause more problems than I am willing to work out.

I wouldn't be suprised to se the 40 S&W to make a pretty big comeback also, high(er) cap and comes closer to appeasing the 45 enthusiests.

Nobody Knows.

All of the balistical gurus have done such a good job of debunking each other's data that the safest bet is not to believe any of them.

It is pretty well established that .45 ball with penetrate the human body fairly deeply if not through and through and cause, more or less, immediate harm. That's about all you can expect from any handgun round.

.357s cause a great deal more damage than the .45s when you shoot varmints with them but this doesn't translate directly to COMBAT ! EFFECTIVENESS!!!! And the foremost authorities can argue both sides depending on their personal preferences.

I believe from what I remember, the 60% figure for the .45 acp is for "hardball" ammo. Used to follow all the numbers religiously, but the last I'd checked I found out that all the major calibers are getting around the 90% one-shot-stop figure (for stuff like the 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 mag, & 45 acp when used with the best premium bullets).

IMHO the .45 ACP is the real deal. As mentioned the ball ammo is not much more effecient than 9mm ball ammo. Most of the better .45 ACP loads are not +P rated. To get equal performance from the 9mm you have to move up to at least +P ammo if not +P+ rated ammo. The .45ACP was designed to be the most powerful handgun cartridge that the common draftee could handle as was the 30-06. I think they got it right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep - its not called "America's fist" for nothing- interresting USMC has gone back to the 45 and 1911 for issue to some of their MEU-SOC's.

Actually, the "one shot" stop tests done by a retired cop, I think his name was Evan Thomas had the 45 ACP as a close second behind the 125gr-stoked 357 magnum with I think 95% plus with hollow point ammo. Further, you guys will appreciate this: When we went into Afghanistan, there was an overwhelming clamor, from the troops on the ground for 45ACPs. Matter of fact, in Iraq, all the "special boys" that were responsible for tagging Saddam, use 45 ACPs. The 9mm Beretta is NOT a popular sidearm for us. Moreover, the aluminum frame just does not hold up. When i was on the USS NIMITZ, we received the first shipment of M-9s, brand new. By the time I left two years later, the pistols were showing their wear. Easier to shoot and clean? yes, but when it comes to a fighting, reliable pistol, NOTHING even comes close. jorge

In spite of being one of the few �handgun loonies� at the Campfire, my opinion is that none of the typical CCW handgun cartridges amount to much. The handgun is a bad compromise made good because it�s often the only option. Sooo�is the 45ACP really really really "all-that"?

Nope. Gimme a rifle <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

Geometry dictates that if you double the diameter of a circle you quadruple the area - a .45 ACP has 60% more frontal area than a 9mm. Bullet expansion will generally increase the .45 ACP�s lead. Given that most handguns have sufficient penetration, I�ll go with the one that leaves the biggest hole.

JOG you are right - I don't remember who said it but it was something along the lines of "If I know there is gonna be a gunfight - I stay home but if I had to go and knew about it I'll bring a rifle" and given that most of us don't know its comming we carry a pistol Just in case.

Clint Smith said a pistol should be only used to fight your way to the rifle you never shoulda left to begin with.

Now if this country ever lets me carry an M14 around 24/7 I might just do that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The .45 was the standard from 1873 until the US discovered equal opportunity. It was the most powerful caliber the soldier could be expected to handle. Now, we have to issue handguns that women and men of small stature can handle, or we will be discriminating against women, men of Asian descent, etc. Special ops teams can have minimum height/weight standards, and selection processes that weed out weaker soldiers, so they can still use .45s. For the rest, the bar has been lowered.

carlos111; 100 PER CENT ON TARGETregarding the 9mm/45 issue. The bar has indeed been lowered all across the board. jorge

The AWB has never really affected me much. I was never a huge fan of hi-cap pistols and I never had a problem finding magazines for the few I own. I'll be happy to see dumbazz laws sunset in any event.



I coulda done without the AWB, but it inadvertently did the gun industry some good. The wondernine craze created a whole slew of pistols that were far too large for their chambering. A similar craze in the rifle world would end up with a 12-pound Remington 700 with a 30-inch barrel and 15-round magazine. Kinda neat maybe, but what good is it? The 10-round limit gave us back the single-stack magazine and some truly useful and concealable pistols. It also re-emphasized the revolver and gave us a new breed of lightweight alloy and titanium gems.



When the �Saturday Night Special� was �banned� the bad guys were forced to carry quality weapons. Dang, I hate when that happens. This time around I think the dumbazz laws actually worked in our favor. I�m sure there will be at least a flash of �hi-cap craze� when the AWB sunsets, but hopefully the industry will stick with what works and the buyers will hold them to it.

The myth in this mix is that "women can't handle the .45 ACP." All it takes to see the fallacy of this politically correct sexist assumption is one look at just about any firing line-up in 2700 competition, with specific notice of (a) how many women (often petite) are there, shooting 1911s, and (b) how many of 'em are consistently out-shooting a lot of men. I wonder how many military females who're allegedly unable to handle the .45 ACP can shoot the 9mm worth a shuck.

I've seen a number of women (even young girls) handle even the .44 Magnum with skill and aplomb from the first time they tried it.

What's training for, if not to develop the beginner's ability to handle adequate to superior weapons, from the handgun to the F-Whatever fighter and missiles?

And to show things in an even more ridiculous light: any advantage supposedly gained by the 9mm's lighter recoil is quickly negated by the fact that the damned M9 has a grip design that makes it extremely difficult for people with smaller hands to shoot well. Go figure!

RSY

Man this is a great discussion.

I am a 1911 fan just because it IS the mauser of the defensive handguns, the Granddaddy of them all.

A couple of points about stopping power. Expanding or Hunting type bullets are illegal for use in personal defense situations in Oregon and other states. Some fool decided that hollow points, etc., constitute "excessive force." (exactly how a man can lawfully employ lethal force in defense of his life and at the same time not be using excessive force is beyond me).

So here, in Oregon the 45 ACP with 230 gr FMJ rounds is the winner. No FMJ 9mm or hard cast 357 round can compete when expansion is not a factor.

Second, I agree that the handgun is second best to a Rifle or a Shotgun. But no one can carry an 870 riot gun or a M-14 around all day, every day, 24/7. Eventually, you will have to mow the lawn, change your oil, or carry a box in from the garage. And you will have to set the big gun down.

The advantage of the handgun is that it is worn on your person, not carried in your hand. Thus, it is THERE WITH YOU when the excrement hits the fan.

Third, just like any firearm purchase, each of us must do our own research and decide what "fits" our needs. This includes our personal recoil tolerance, fit of the weapon in our hand, and our intended use.

Personal needs and preferences permeate everything from Scope Selection (Leupie is best for some, Swaro for another, and Zeiss for a third) to caliber choices (I prefer bore size over hyper velocity), etc.

All that being said, I think the answer to the original post is yes, the 1911 45 ACP is all that it is touted to be. As is the Mauser Rifle and the Model 12 shotgun.

The 1911, like the Mauser and the Model 12, has limitations. But they are all darn good weapon that continue to meet the needs of many, many, shooters for decade after decade. That's why they are so highly touted, all three just plain do the job, and do it well.

Good shooting,

BMT

Ken, those "light" and "petite" people on the firing lines like to shoot, so they have developed skills to handle the .45's. Most cops and military guys that I know DON"T like to shoot....actually they hate it. They qualify twice a year and go play cops and robbers. Why they don't learn to shoot in a career that may depend on one's shooting ability is beyond me. A lot of the military guys in my area (more like weekend warriors) HATE hand guns. They don't mind the M16 so much, but want nothing to do with a pistol, so never become proficient with them. When they do shoot handguns, they all want 9mm's, because they don't "kick" hard. I here this all the time.

Incidentally, my wife's favorite handgun is a full size Springfield 1911 with full power loads (200 grain SWC doing 1,050 fps). She will put as many rounds through it as I will give her. She has the option to shoot multiple .22's, .38's, 9mm's, .357's and .44's and what does she pick every time...the .45, and she hits what she aims at too.

My concelled weapon of choice is the Springfield .45. I pack it in the moutains and the cities. I know if something pops up that is gonna give me trouble, it ain't gonna be standing for long. I carried a Glock 19 for a long time with an 18 round mag. It never gave me the warm fuzzy that the .45 does. Every time I shot critters or targets with the 9mm, it took multiple hits to take them out. The .45 was a one shot deal, especially with +P ammo in the 200 grain weight at 1,100 fps. It puts the cabosh on stuff in a hurry.

I also have an article where some cops got together in a slaughter house and killed about a hundred steers with various .45 ammo. The results were pretty dog gone interesting. And YES, the .45 is all that and a bag of chips <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

BMT - excellent point! Great post.

But if the govt would let me callr a m14 or Garand all day everyday I would - I guarrentee I could find people to open the door for me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As a young Lt I had the additional duty of running some pistol qualification ranges during the transitional period. This was in an National Guard Infantry Battalion. Well a few of us shot near perfect scores with the 1911, mostly cops and gun nuts. The first time qual rate was actually pretty low. Then we got the m9 and everyone seemed to have a decent score and the qual rate skyrocketed. The 1911 takes a level of skill (proper training) in order to shoot well. The m9 is as easy to shoot as an ruger 22.
Something you probably haven't noticed is there are 1000's of 1911 being used in Iraq and Afganistan. Its not that hard to sneak one over there with a few boxes of ammo. The guns have to be left in country because U.S. customes will find them coming home and will prosecute. So alot of Senior NCO and Company level officers just bite the bullet.

I prefer the 45. I have a Glock 9mm, but don't shoot it very much. I have a Para Ordnance P13 that I like much better and just picked up a new Para Tac Four this week as a post-Afghanistan deployment present to myself. I like having 13 rounds of .45 in a compact package.

I repeat: what's training for?

And discipline. Do the police and military types whom you cite like all the aspects of regimented and military life that they have to comply with? IMO, "like" has no place in the equation for required ability acquired through training and discipline.