24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,872
B
bhemry Offline OP
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,872
I'm not sure I have any one question to ask. But after reading the Craig Boddington & Ross Seyfried threads, along with the one on Mule Deer's "controversial" piece in the NRA magazine, it got me to thinking. How fickle is our (gunreaders) love or hate of gunwriters?

Is it because they espouse certain cartridges/concepts that match ours? What if at some point either we or they gain more experience and change viewpoints- even slightly? Would a gunwriter be more popular if they took a firm stand early on and keep it their whole career come hell or high water, or are they better off if they've never met a gun/cartridge they didn't like? (Some don't like Craig Boddington because they think he's not maintaining the former and some don't like David Fortier/ Clair Rees because they think they fit the latter.)

What if Jack O'Conner later in his career had said that there are better cartridges than the .270 for medium game, or if Elmer Keith started using premium bullets and decided that you really don't need anything bigger than the 30-06 class of cartridges to kill a deer? It seems like I've read an article or two from gunwriters who'd interviewed prominent gunwriters before they died who'd privately admitted something to that effect. Would we have "run them out of town on a rail" or crucify them for "blasphemy" if they'd admitted something like that in print?

I always appreciated how you felt like you were there and could envision the sights, smells, sounds, etc. in a Jack O'Conner or Ross Seyfried hunt. With Mule Deer you can too, but I admire so many other things in his writings besides that, that it's hard to pinpoint one in particular. I love how he simplifies potentially complicated matters <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />, how sacreligious he is when he blows away 25 years of what I "know" from reading other gun writers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and I love his sense of humor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He has admitted in print how some of the things he used to use or believe, he has a different opinion on now. I don't like some of it .... but yet, I do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There are just some things that I'd rather not have to find out the hard way! I'd rather my gunwriter be "transparent", i.e. just plain open and honest with me, even if I disagree!

GB1

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Let me ask the other side of the question � how much have readers and their basic attitudes changed in the last fifty-several years?

The readers whom I used to know before I became a gun writer viewed the writers whose work we read a great deal differently � as fellow hunters and shooters like ourselves with something interesting to tell us about. We respected those old writers and learned much from them even though their different orientations moved them at different speeds in a variety of directions different from our own.

Differences in taste and choice weren't cardinal sins. Nowadays, it seems that many readers � the most vocal if not typical readers � demand that writers agree with their (readers') own preferences, biases, and opinions or else they (writers) are somehow despicable, traitors, liars, etc.

We old-time readers didn't read the magazines and books with our animosity lurking so near the surface. We weren't so readily distrustful or eagerly judgemental. We had our favorites but didn't loathe or despise those with different tastes and interests. We didn't demand that the writers of those days voice our own prejudices to be worthy of our regard and respect.

We didn't assume that our own experiences and conclusions formed a body of infallible standards that writers rattled or shook at their own risk. We weren't judgemental know-it-all-alreadies who were loaded, primed, and cocked with hair triggers set to cut loose the wraths of Heaven on writers who dared to speak or believe something else.

One result was that we grew. So did our knowledge. So did our range of interests. So did our satisfaction. So did our pleasure. And (I suspect) so did our judgement.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,935
H
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
H
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,935
Quote
Let me ask the other side of the question � how much have readers and their basic attitudes changed in the last fifty-several years?

<snip>

One result was that we grew. So did our knowledge. So did our range of interests. So did our satisfaction. So did our pleasure. And (I suspect) so did our judgement.


I restrict my writing to areas where I have first-hand knowledge and experience. I know that my opinions have changed over the years as my knowledge and experience have grown, and I don't object to seeing such growth in the writing of authors I read. Though I might be a little surprised to see JO'C dump the .270 Win, at least without some intervening transitional material. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

jim


LCDR Jim Dodd, USN (Ret.)
"If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy."
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21,923
Likes: 9
B
BMT Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21,923
Likes: 9
Mr. Howell:

I agree with you that we have become a "Donahue" society. Everybody gets to speak their mind on any subject, whether or not they have any insight, background, or knowledge to share (of course, my posts are perfect . . . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

Unfortunately, I see the trend reflected in the work of many gun-writers.

I re-read some old Jack O'Connor today. I reads as well as Mule Deer's work. And the advice has not changed in 50 years! (What is really amazing is that O'Connor's Wife and Mule Deer's wife both uses the 7x57 on Elk. ) There must be something to this sensible advice about shot placement being more important than velocity.

As for Gunwriters changing over time, I sure hope they do! A man that never changes may well be showing us that he hasn't learned much over his career.

I remember an interview of Jack O'Connor that was published shortly after his death. He actually was a little disgruntled that he was so thoroughly linked to the 270!

IIRC he said that he had written a lot about the 30-06 and the 375 H&H, too and that somehow, those excellent rounds did not get lniked to him (He never withdrew his praise of the 270, just sounded like he was thinking out loud as to how he got so linked to one cartridge).

Just my 2 cents,

BMT


"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,516
C
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
C
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,516
I think it's more the Limbaugh. Hannity, Savage 'society' . If you don't agree with me you are an idiot, an imbecil, against America, or worse, a LIBERAL! my .02 capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds.

If you are a hunter, and farther than that, get closer!
IC B2

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 98
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 98
Yes

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 98
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 98
And I'm still waitin on some of them.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
S
Campfire Outfitter
Online Happy
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
Why would you wait? Changing one's opinion is situation dependant. Sometimes there is no reason to change one's views.

WRT the original question, my response would be, "Do you allow yourself an evolving viewpoint?"


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain
Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,473
Likes: 73
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,473
Likes: 73
Quote
the original question, my response would be, "Do you allow yourself an evolving viewpoint?"


You sir have just hit the nail on the head.


Me



Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Quote
WRT the original question, my response would be, "Do you allow yourself an evolving viewpoint?"
Someone once aptly observed that he who thinks that his way is the only way denies himself the right to change his mind.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















IC B3

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
L
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
L
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
My respect to the gun writers on this forum.But as we know they put there pants on one leg at a time just like we do.They will,I hope,admit that there are a lot of people- guides whatever that have much more actual hunting experience than they do.An article or a book is "One Mans" opinion.Nothing more nothing less.There is a whole bunch of people that have as much or more experience hunting for food as it was back then to feed the family...Now it is a sport which is not an eat or starve situation where the best hunters learned there skills....To survive and feed the family....

Life goes on...Nothing against any writer here...

Jayco.

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,424
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus &
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus &
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,424
My views of rifles and cartridges have surely changed over the years. Hopefully, my writing shows that evolution.

The readership is very unforgiving about this. They ask, "Were you right then, or are you right now?" Well, it depends. In the 1980s, it took larger cartridges for me to cleanly kill elk. Now, the .280 Ackley with 140-grain bullets works just fine.

We all learn as we get older. And we refine our stalking and shooting skills. The truthful writer simply reports his experiences honestly and lets the reading public sort it out.

Steve


"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397







Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Jayco, once again your bias blinds you to simple reality. Outdoor writers often have a lot more field experience than you give 'em credit for. A number of my fellow writers have been hunting for decades, since they were unsubsidized youngsters afield on their own, and some have legally taken more American and exotic game in a single season than a typical local hunter gets in several seasons. (This fact, of course, does not include loggers who poach game.)

On how many writers � presumably one[s] whom you really know something about � do you base your negative opinions of writers?


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Quote
... gun writers ... as we know they put there pants on one leg at a time just like we do.
I wish I could. Since my stroke, I have to sit down to put my pants on � sometimes one leg at a time, sometimes both. If you can stand up to put your pants on, you're one-up on me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
S
Campfire Outfitter
Online Happy
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
As humans, we love stories. Before paper and professional writers, the storyteller told his tales. In part to entertain, but mainly to teach and pass on accumulated knowledge.

Even with the internet, radio and television, there still exists the wonder of listening to a good storyteller. You can see it in the eyes of many people in theatres, churches etc.

There are so many of us on the planet, most with multiple outlets from which to find these tales, that we've become choosy. That's to be expected I suppose.

logcutter, you are certainly correct when you say that the overwhelming majority don't need to hunt. There is a "however" to this. Northern Canada has its fair share of subsistance hunters - both native and white. Most enjoy reading the magazine articles. Some will try a suggested method or technique when hunting. Others will laugh and ignore them. Regardless, the story's the thing. Either for the entertainment or the knowledge.

Whether for sport or to feed one's family, the method is the same. The result must be the same. If it is not, the sport hunter would be irresponsible. The subsistance hunter would go hungry.


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain
Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
L
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
L
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Ken Wrote:
Quote
This fact, of course, does not include loggers who poach game.)

I like your un-bias opinion on the loggers.Like gun writers....Not all Loggers poach game.Of course we already new that.

My point is..I have absolutely nothing against writers.(Live on)But..There are many people I know that grew up with hunting a must for food and there still are.To match skills with a hungry person and compare for sport is two different things.I know several that grew up years ago on the Salmon River and still have creeks named after them and live there today.To say "All" gun writers have the knowledge of getting in the meat for the family like the settlers did is like telling someone how tough you are without showing it.

I have nothing against you or anyone else but it appears to me "Ego's" tend to get in the way with facts and experience.To say Gunwriters have more experience than some Packers-Locals etc etc is bold at the least.The "Silent" people that just do it for food and have since they were born.

The internet is a puzzling place where ego's fly but b.....I'll leave it there.One man is not better than another unless proven differently...That's just a fact.

Although we seem to disagree on things..I do respect your opinion and experiences....

Jayco.

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Points well taken, Steve! Obviously logical. Obviously true.

Responses to my survey of readers' preferences confirmed (in spades!) my notion that (for example) the Alabama farmer who hunts bob whites, doves, cottontails, and gray squirrels with a 20-gauge and a .22 rimfire for a few weeks every year isn't terribly thrilled to read about the 20-gauge, the .22, or hunting his local game the rest of the year.

A significant percentage of the respondents said that they preferred to read about hunting game that they would never be able to hunt, with guns and cartridges that they knew they'd never even see. Very few preferred to read stories that mirrored their own experience.

That was "one man's opinion, nothing more" in the beginning � but it turned-out to be "one man's opinion" for each "one man" of hundreds of hunters who gave me their opinions. Writers learn a lot about what readers like, from readers. My survey just formalized and extrapolated what I already sensed was so.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
S
Campfire Outfitter
Online Happy
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
Quote
But..There are many people I know that grew up with hunting a must for food and there still are.To match skills with a hungry person and compare for sport is two different things.


I think this is where the confusion lies. The only difference between a subsistance and sport hunter is the reason why they walk out the door. The method and end are the same. To be successful as either type, you must become proficient.

No one is saying that sport hunters are better or more noble.


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain
Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
L
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
L
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295
Ken-I agree that writers have to write what the majority of readers want.You are 100% correct.My point was that some people do not respond to these surveys or any surveys at all.

I did not look at it that way...Why would an experienced succesful hunter need tips on hunting?

I try to stay away from this talk but you have my blessings on your stroke.I have Multiple Schlerosis and had two Heart Attacks.I'll die trying......Can't teach an old Dog new tricks....

Best of luck to you and your family..

Jayco.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
S
Campfire Outfitter
Online Happy
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,793
Likes: 8
Thanks Ken. I think that it is because we love stories, that we want to hear about places and creatures that we will likely never see. The tale has to be presented with gusto however.

When I was still in the military and teaching, the worst thing you could do was blandly belch out facts. Your listeners faded away.

This may not be fair to Ben Stein, but imagine a technical lecture about the chemistry of explosives that he would deliver vs that of Robin Williams. The end must be that the student retains something. Humour and colourful descriptions stick. Bland is boring.

So, a reloading article can be made as interesting as a trip to Africa, but it takes talent to accomplish. That, I suppose, separates the average from the great.


Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
www.303british.com

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain
Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24



345 members (1_deuce, 204guy, 224th, 260Remguy, 264mag, 10ring1, 37 invisible), 12,528 guests, and 1,130 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums82
Topics1,198,266
Posts18,604,523
Members74,137
Most Online21,066
May 26th, 2024


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.207s Queries: 54 (0.070s) Memory: 0.9129 MB (Peak: 1.0305 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-06-24 04:46:31 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS