Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Moly Coating

Ken, what's your personal opinion on Moly Coating? Is it of any real benifit.
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<br>Phil

My "jury" is still deliberating (still hung, too).
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<br>All the testimony FOR moly seems persuaded before-hand. Much of the testimony after long experience seems increasingly negative.
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<br>A long time ago, I learned that anything that's quickly and enthusiastically embraced by large numbers of people is likely to be a deception. Increasingly, I get the feeling that moly-coating bullets is turning-out to be a deception.
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<br>My unanswered questions are
<br>What are its real benefits supposed to be?
<br>How does one examine and evaluate the extent of its benefits? (IOW, how does anyone know?)
<br>Are its benefits great enough for it to be worth the trouble?
<br>How does it affect accuracy, pressures, etc?
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<br>So far, my impression is that it's supposed to make cleaning easier and less-frequently necessary. What isn't clear to me is whether the effort saved in cleaning is enough greater than the effort spent in coating to justify the effort spent.
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<br>I'm suspicious of what slickening the bullet shank does to neck grip, bullet pull, and the full spectrum of interior ballistics -- first, of course, in the first round fired but also in rounds in the magazine as they undergo the repeated recoil of rounds fired before they come to the top and get fed into the chamber.
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<br>There are just too many crucial questions left unaddressed and unanswered by the enthusiasts who thump tambourines and toot horns cheering for the magic of moly. My "jury" is still awaiting further -- better -- testimony. I may, someday, have to dedicate a test barrel to a series to find the answers. Meanwhile, a growing number of once-enthusiastic moly-shooters are becoming disenchanted with moly.
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<br>I'm not buying it -- yet.

FWIW. The jury is still out with me too with a couple of exceptions. With my .17 Ackley I get about 15 rounds of accuracy with non coated bullets then have to scrub the bore but can shoot a whole bunch of coated bullets and don't loose accuracy. I have a .338/06 that fouls badly. Moly coating stopped that. I don't see much benefit with .22 center fires but now only shoot moly. My main, unanswered concern is what happens to your bore if you don't scrub all the moly out if you don't intend to use that particular rifle for a while. Ol Grouch

Grouch,
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<br>You have just illustrated, very well, the best reason to use moly. Easier/less cleanlng and a great way to beat fouling. If you want to really beat fouling problems with regular Barnes X bullets, just moly-coat them.
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<br>Myself and several friends have found a definite increase in velocity in rifles with moly. The moly reduces pressure and velocity, but then you can increase the loading and get more velocity than without the moly. I have a 280 Rem that shoots moly'd 154 gr Hornadys over 3000 fps with good case life and no primer pocket expansion.
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<br>As far as cleaning goes, I know several sillouhette and bench rest shooters who put literally hundreds of rounds through their barrels with only a single wet patch of Shooter's Choice or similar mild solvent at the end of the day. One guy has over 3000 rounds (that's more than 75 matches) through his rifle and the thing still shoots in the fives.
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<br>As far as putting a rifle away for extended periods, just do what you should do with a non-moly bore. Clean it with solvent, dry with a clean swab, then oil the bore. Don't worry about getting the moly out. You can't remove it chemically anyway. It has to be taken out mechanically, either by shooting regular bullets or with an abrasive like JB or RemClean. I have left several rifles unfired for over a year and the bores were fine when I swabbed them out prior to shooting.
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<br>Ken has put his finger on the real question, "Is it worth the trouble?" My feeling is not unless you are going to shoot a lot, and by that I mean many hundred of rounds a year, or have a particular problem to address in a rifle. As you have already discovered in your 338/06, it certainly does reduce fouling.
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<br>My understanding is that it improves barrel life in high intensity cartrides, and also reduces the need for cleaning to maintain accuracy, like your 17 Ackley, for instance.
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<br>Ted
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Yukoner, this is not a flame, but how do you know your bore is ok after a year? Do you have a bore scope for inspection? Me thinks that just peering down the bore at a bright light doesn't answer the question. I don't know a darn thing about moly bullets. I shoot them in my .223, but thats' the limit

So Yukoner let me get this straight. The moly reduces your chamber pressure, and you get less velocity, right? So you increase your powder charge to get your pressure and velocity back up, right? What have you gained? All I can see is ease in cleaning. Have I got it right?

Saddlesore.
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<br>You are right about not really being able to tell much by looking down a bore at a bright surface. Eegads, if you have ever seen what a shiny bbl can actually be like in a borescope you know what I mean.
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<br>I am basing my assessment on how the thing shoots after cleaning it and going back to the range. Accuracy does not deteriorate and cleaning reains the same, easy. In other words, the rifle doesn't start fouling badly, which is one of the first signs of a rough or deteriorating bore.
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<br>Actually that raises another interesting point here. It is quite amazing at how well barrels with only fair bores will shoot with moly. Some actually shoot not bad at all without it, but must be thoroughly cleaned, often, to keep shooting well.
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<br>I have a friend who shoots moly in everything he owns. Hunting rifles, some of which only get a quick sighted in once a year, sillouhette rifles which get shot every week and his screamers. He never cleans any of them, in the normal sense of sitting down for half an hour and scrubbing away. and never has a problem. Just a quick two or three passes down the bore at the end of the day with some Kroil, Shooters choice or thirty weight. Well, not really thirty weight, but you get the idea.
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<br>Maybe, that's what is going on with my 280 Husqvarna. The bore is constantly rusting, but the moly is continuing to keep it shooting. :-)
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<br>Your question is a very valid one. No flame perceived at all. Appreciate your reply,
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<br>Ted
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HI Rolly,
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<br>When I first heard about moly I was very excited about a product that would simplify my cleaning. As it turned out it really didn't. I suppose the method worked with the 22 ppc but it sure didn't work with my hunting rifles. There were a number of differences like factory barrels and much larger amounts of powder.
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<br>I posted this to report about the velocity changes with moly. Yes what you said is true and I waited for Yukoner to answer the question. He didn't answer your question.
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<br>It does take a grain or two more to get back the velocity lost. However more powder can be added beyond that point. I was amazed as I discovered that using moly allowed me to gain approx.100 fps. I am talking about quite a few rifles. I was very fortunate to have some factory barrels that were used and some riflles that had new douglas barrels with loads already developed. This made a great control. The following chamberings gained 100 fps on average. 300 win mag, two 284s, 7-08, 243, two 22-250s with an old factory and a new douglas, and a 25-06.
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<br>I did discover that my 22-250 really didn't need to be cleaned every 25 or 30 rounds either. I was in Mt last summer and I shot marmots over a three week period. I fished and shot 22s at ground squirrels. I just did not want to mess with cleaning the 22-250 and put approx. 70 rounds through it. It shot well and when I finally got around to cleaning the barrel it was easy and fast.
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<br>I was not keen to post this information. I am not interested in arguements. Also I don't want just any reloader to take this lightly and try cranking up the velocity. I have a chronograph and I have been loading for around 20 yrs. I was careful in my approach.
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<br>I do have a 280 and a 338 that I don't moly. I use moly with the higher velocity rounds.
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<br>..Ross

I have shot molybdenum disulfide coated bullets for over 7 years. I have used them in my bench guns, my 1000 yard guns, my varmint guns, and my big bore hunting guns. Basically from a 6 PPC to a .450 Dakota. I was first introduced to moly when shooting bench competitions. It was supposedly the "miracle cure" for frequent cleaning and accuracy stability. Based upon numerous testimonials at the range, I started purchasing coated bullets from Walt Berger. (He was one of the first to adopt the process for factory bullets).
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<br>Since this time, I have drawn a few observations.
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<br>1. Moly works best on small to medium calibers.
<br>2. Moly works best on high to hyper velocity cartridges.
<br>3. Moly works best in premium barrels.
<br>4. A chronograph is the only safe method of working up loads.
<br>5. Moly helps to calm extreme barrel harmonics.
<br>6. Using Moly Bore Prep is advisable on new/clean barrels.
<br>7. It takes 15 to 20 rounds to fully burnish the moly into a new barrel.
<br>8. You must shoot 1 and clean till 20 to ensure no copper is trapped below the moly.
<br>9. You must clean the barrel after each shooting session.
<br>10. A 50/50 mix of Kroil and Shooters Choice is a very good cleaner.
<br>11. Butch�s Bore Shine also works very well.
<br>12. Every 100 to 200 rounds you must clean with JB Bore Paste.
<br>13. You must inspect and clean the chamber throat to remove fouling.
<br>14. Never shoot moly over copper.
<br>15. It is OK to shoot copper over moly
<br>16. It will not turn a crappy factory barrel into a sub MOA bench wonder.
<br>17. For competition and varmint shooters it saves a lot of cleaning time.
<br>18. Moly significantly reduces bore ware.
<br>19. Moly reduces barrel heating.
<br>20. Moly is inert and it will not break down and form some mysterious acid, nor will it attract moisture.
<br>21. There is no magic or voodoo behind moly. Sometimes it works and sometimes in identical guns it won�t.
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<br>Along with several fellow shooters at the club, I invested in a Hawkeye bore scope ($1,100) equipped with the light kit ($183 X 6 took the sting out of the cost!). I scope all my hunting rifles once a year and every few months on my high volume varmint and target guns. I monitor throat erosion and barrel wear. I can report that moly does reduce wear and has not damaged any gun that I have inspected. There were reports (range gossip) several years ago about ring stress fractures from shooting moly - I have never seen a picture of actual stress damage and I don't believe this exists.
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<br>I have burnished ALL my new barrels with Moly Bore Prep after a general break in process - even if I do not intend on shooting moly coated bullets in the gun. I am not too anal about breaking in new barrels since I mostly shoot premium barrels. However, I use Moly Bore Prep to help embed moly into the smallest imperfections within the bore. If nothing else, it makes cleaning easier.
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<br>I have seen quite a few guns that did not respond to molybdenum disulfide coated bullets. Most of my larger bore guns from .338 and up did not seem to like moly. I have worked moly loads on several .338s and .416s with less than impressive accuracy results. However, on my 6mm, .25, & .30 caliber cartridges, moly has worked wonders. But I do have a 6mm X .284 that refuses to shoot moly.
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<br>The use of moly is more of a hit-or-miss benefit in factory barrels. I have attempted to force several factory guns to shoot moly with poor results. I attribute this to rough barrels, poor harmonics, and stressed steel. One gun shot moly significantly better after being cryoed treated. Harmonics and barrel stress must play a factor.
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<br>In my opinion, moly is worth the try in small to medium bores. Make sure you start with an absolutely squeaky clean barrel. I use a little JB followed by a round of Sweets to ensure I am down to clean metal. Use a bore prep and properly burnish the barrel. Only after 30 rounds or so will you be able to tell if your gun is going to shoot moly well. It will take some load development work to maximize the benefits of moly. Using moly is no short cut. While you can stretch your aggressive cleaning cycles, it takes a lot of time to work your loads and burnish your barrel. You must make a concerted effort to effectively use moly. Most folks just don�t want to mess with it - I don�t blame them one bit.

Having some good friends of a Mechanical bent,and involved in the Nuclear industry,I have gotten some interesting annecdotes concerning Moly,and it's effect upon carbon and "Stainless" steels,both of which are used in "Hot loops" and "Cold loops" of a Nuke generating facility,and under intense pressure.
<br>I'm gonna E-mail HenryJ and see if I cannot get him to post here,the info he sent me a while back.
<br>Just for background.
<br>Henry is a consultant to the Nuclear power industry.
<br>They pay him to find issues that may affect,safety and operation integrity.
<br>His resources go waaay back,to include his father who was in on the design of the first Nuke sub.
<br>Long story short.Moly is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
<br>Lemme get hot on the E-mail thing.
<br>Take care all!
<br>E4E

Lemme get this straight,ECHO,you're bringing in a rocket scientist to prove a point?grin
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<br>You know that aint gonna change some peoples minds.Me,I never cared for the stuff anyhow.Too much like condoms,maybe?

condoms are the next best thing since the wheel!

blammer,
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<br>Maybe it's the application and use of said product......
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<br>Bill

<<I posted this to report about the velocity changes with moly. Yes what you said is true and I waited for Yukoner to answer the question. He didn't answer your question. >>
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<br>Azshooter,
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<br>Guilty as charged! :-)
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<br>Seems like I have less and less time to do the things I really want, but let me say my experience concerning getting increased velocity with moly coated bullets is exactly as you have descibed it. Velocity drops initially with the same load, but can load larger charges and get higher velocities.
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<br>I guess the only differnce I would report is that I can get considerably more than 100 fps add'l velocity and still have good case life. By that I mean no head expansion or enlarged primer pockets with repeated reloadings. As well, I do use moly in several of my hunting rifles and am doing so more and more.
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<br>My 280 Husqvarna easily gets over 3000 fps with 154gr Hornadys. Barnes X bullets do very well with moly, too, although this is probably a moot point since you can get the blue bullets now.
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<br>I have a 30/06 Husqvarna that routinely shoots 162 gr A-Max bullets over 3000 fps into groups you would be pleased to get with a match rifle and it is a forty-year old factory bbl. Cases last forever and the thing never gets any cleaning other than a quick pass with Kroil or other light gun oil at the end of the day. I have never had to put a patch with any Sweets, Shooters Choice or other Copper Remover on it down the bbl or given it a JB treatment since I cleaned it up well after I first got the rifle.
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<br>Anyway, my experience is essentially the same as yours in every rifle I have tried moly coated bullets in. I have never used any moly preparation in the bore, only on the bullets.
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<br>BTW, do you wax your bullets after molycoating? I never have, mainly because I have never been able to find finely ground carnuba wax anywhere in Canada. Dan Hacket tells me he waxes all of his. Apparently it makes tham totally clean to handle, no smudging whatsoever, and he feels waxing may also have other benefits.
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<br>Thanks for your post. I'll try to be more diligent about answering replies and questions. There's just too many good forums around this fire.
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<br>Ted

Gene,
<br>Nah,he ain't a rocket scientist...he was enlisted.
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<br>His gig is to search the industry,and outside the industry,to find stuff/practices that has been proven to be detrimental to the operation of a Nuke generating facility.
<br>One of the things he found a while back was that Moly draws moisture,creates and acidic byproduct under heat and moisture,affects the strength of threads on high pressure joints and is an all around bad JuJu.
<br>The reports and studys are all supported by scientific evidence,and testing...but not his own.
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<br>Have some faith,he's a "Normal" guy,and spends his free time burning ammo through either a Tikka or M1A at the range.
<br>I sent HenryJ an E-mail last night,and he should get it this morning,as he gags on his morning Java at work.
<br>Cheers!
<br>E4E
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E4E - I don�t want to get into a pizzin match with your expert, however, moly has been used in rifles for over 20 years. Literally hundreds of thousands of moly coated rounds are fired each year through thousands of guns in every corner of the planet. In total, millions of rounds have been fired.
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<br>I should mention that most of the folks that are religiously shooting moly are doing so in incredibly expensive bench guns and competition guns. These are the same guys that have built huge travel vaults to protect their guns from vibration and shock and bore scope their guns like you shave each morning. If there was even the most remote possibility of harming their baby, they would run in the other direction at the mere mention of moly.
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<br>The moisture and acid discussion has been kicked around for a very long time and never proven. Not one gun has been shown or proven to have been damaged by the use of moly. IF - IF - IF - IF - IF it were a problem in guns, it would have been discovered long ago. MAYBE, under certain conditions, Molybdenum Disulfide MAY exhibit the hygroscopic action that your friend reports. HOWEVER, it obviously is not a phenomena which occurs in a gun barrel. The method in which moly is used in the shooting sports, it has been proven to be stable - period.
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<br>SOME folks thought that since their barrel was moly coated, they did not need to clean their gun at all. As a result, problems occurred. IF you will follow simple, time proven techniques, moly can be of great benefit to many target and varmint guns. IF you decide to get creative with the stuff, you will most likely run into problems - however, this is operator error and not a function of moly.
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<br>I'll shut up now, nuff said...

Zero Drift,
<br>No pizzin match is necessary.
<br>I see both sides of the issue,and full well realize the benefits and purported advantages of moly coating.
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<br>The report that HenryJ has posession of,does state that Moly does create a Hygroscopic effect,and is supported by several studys,using 416 Stainless.
<br>I will not try to butcher the report by tossing statements from memory however.
<br>Henry will post it as soon as he gets back to home,and can dig it out of his computer,and folks can decide for themselves.
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<br>The High dollar benchrest type barrels that are subject to the use of moly coated bullets,are cleaned between every string for the most part,some guys clean after each match.However they keep a barrel for one or two seasons at the most,and dump it as soon as it goes "Sour".Any detrimental effect wont be shown under those conditions...
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<br>Personally I find Moly to be just one more variable I don't want or need.
<br>The issue of the "Pressure ring" that has come up lately has been shown to be the result of loose maint. practices,but exacerbated by the presence of Moly.
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<br>Then again folks that shoot a couple thousand rounds without cleaning,will soon find another way to mangle a good rifle if Moly were taken from them!
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<br>Read the report when it's posted,and see what you think.Possibly in application it means nothing to a guy,Then again,it might give ya something to think about.
<br>Cheers!
<br>E4E

I was wondering if different grades of moly are hygoscopic and others aren't?

I was wondering if it mixes best with bourbon or rum?
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<br>I knew a Molly one time, red hair and green eyes, of course she liked tequila as I recall.........

Fellows, I don't know about resolving the moly issue, but there may have been a record set here pertaining just how far off topic a thread can go ...
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<br>Grins, Jeff