First... if the carbine is useful at 25 yards and under, then anyone that can't hit anything at 25 with a 45 should have no business with any weapon. Heck a human target at 100 yards is easy enough given some practice.

Second, I never said the clothing was frozen, IMHO frozen would be much easier to penetrate that flexible balled up insulated material. I'll also go you that I"ve seen this Master Sergeant shoot now since the late 80s... it wasn't the nut behind the butt, lets just say that much

Third, I'll take field data every last time. You can do all the testing you want, but that means very little in the real world often. My real world was full of pigs and 110 JHP WW ammo. Shot from around 10 yards out to about 65 or so, I"d take my Kimber 45 every last time. ANd the rest of the folks I've talked to agree.

Fourth, the carbine is a neat little great rifle to dink around with. But IMHO there are still much better choices for self defense. That being said I've packed that carbine a time or two on trips as a trunk gun, why, I have no clue other than I also know that location of shot placement is key over and above everything else.

Fifth, I've never been a light fast club member, 230 grains at 800 fps always impressed me more.

We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....