Originally Posted by butchlambert1
Originally Posted by Pete E
Originally Posted by butchlambert1

I know the English Electric Lightening is a nice plane, but in reality it would run out of gas trying to attain the altitude of the U2.


Fuel consumption was always the weak point of the Lightening, but as an Interceptor, rate of climb and speed were seen to be more important. I think my the end of production later Marks could fly for 2 hours without refuelling, depending on how they were being flown of course.

Interestingly, they were one of the first aircraft of its type to be able to "supercruise"...

The quote below is some well cited information from Wiki and covers the trials with the U2.

"Climb

The Lightning possessed a remarkable climb rate. It was famous for its ability to rapidly rotate from take-off to climb almost vertically from the runway, though this did not yield the best time-to-altitude. The Lightning's trademark tail-stand manoeuvre exchanged airspeed for altitude; it could slow to near-stall speeds before commencing level flight. The Lightning’s optimum climb profile required the use of afterburners during takeoff. Immediately after takeoff, the nose would be lowered for rapid acceleration to 430 knots (800 km/h) IAS before initiating a climb, stabilising at 450 knots (830 km/h). This would yield a constant climb rate of approximately 20,000 ft/min (100 m/s).[36][nb 3] Around 13,000 ft (4,000 m) the Lightning would reach Mach 0.87 and maintain this speed until reaching the tropopause, 36,000 ft (11,000 m) on a standard day.[nb 4] If climbing further, pilots would accelerate to supersonic speed at the tropopause before resuming the climb.[16][36] A Lightning flying at optimum climb profile would reach 36,000 ft in under three minutes.[36]

The official ceiling of the Lightning was kept secret; low security RAF documents would often state in excess of 60,000 ft (18,000 m). In September 1962, Fighter Command organised interception trials on Lockheed U-2As at heights of around 60,000–65,000 ft (18,000–20,000 m), which were temporarily based at RAF Upper Heyford to monitor Soviet nuclear tests.[52][53][54] Climb techniques and flight profiles were developed to put the Lightning into a suitable attack position. To avoid risking the U-2, the Lightning was not permitted any closer than 5,000 ft (1,500 m) and could not fly in front of the U-2. For the intercepts, four Lightning F1As conducted eighteen solo sorties. The sorties proved that, under GCI, successful intercepts could be made at up to 65,000 ft. Due to sensitivity, details of these flights were deliberately avoided in the pilot log books.[55]

In 1984, during a NATO exercise, Flt Lt Mike Hale intercepted a U-2 at a height which they had previously been considered safe (thought to be 66,000 feet (20,000 m)). Records show that Hale also climbed to 88,000 ft (27,000 m) in his Lightning F.3 XR749. This was not sustained level flight but a ballistic climb, in which the pilot takes the aircraft to top speed and then puts the aircraft into a climb, exchanging speed for altitude. Hale also participated in time-to-height and acceleration trials against Lockheed F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. He reports that the Lightnings won all races easily with the exception of the low-level supersonic acceleration, which was a "dead heat".[56] Lightning pilot and Chief Examiner Brian Carroll reported taking a Lightning F.53 up to 87,300 feet (26,600 m) over Saudi Arabia at which level "Earth curvature was visible and the sky was quite dark", noting that control-wise "[it was] on a knife edge".[57]

Brian Carroll compared the Lightning and the F-15C Eagle, having flown both aircraft, stating that: "Acceleration in both was impressive, you have all seen the Lightning leap away once brakes are released, the Eagle was almost as good, and climb speed was rapidly achieved. Takeoff roll is between 2,000 and 3,000 ft [610 and 910 m], depending upon military or maximum afterburner-powered takeoff. The Lightning was quicker off the ground, reaching 50 ft [15 m] height in a horizontal distance of 1,630 ft [500 m]". Chief Test Pilot for the Lightning Roland Beamont, who also flew most of the "Century series" US aircraft, stated his opinion that nothing at that time had the inherent stability, control and docile handling characteristics of the Lightning throughout the full flight envelope. The turn performance and buffet boundaries of the Lightning were well in advance of anything known to him.[58]"


Pete
Some of the Migs could also make a run at a U2, but like your Electric lightening the couldn't sustain the 65,000 feet. Now the U2's ceiling is quite a bit higher than 70,000 feet. I know what wiki says, but it ain't right on the U2s altitude capability. While it was like a kid running and jumping as high as he could reach, you fall down. That was the Migs and Electric Lightening. The U2 continued on at the altitude for many hours. The Electric Lightening is a good plane, but not trying to intercept the U2.
By the way, the old Canberras are still used for reconnaissance by the USA.


If you read the article you will see the U2 was intercepted successfully a number of times by the Lightening. Could both planes fly higher? Sure..Given the Lightening could be pitched up to 87,000' I think sustained flight up to 70,000 or so wasn't unrealistic..

The real limiting factor for the interceptions would have been radar detection of the U2..

It was thought at the time that Soviet radars could not track anything above about 65, 000' so that may have been why that altitude was chosen for the trials? Plus the higher the U2 flew, the more dangerous it was, so perhaps the trials simply did not justify the added danger?

You mention the Canberra..that originally had a published operational ceiling of 48,000' to 50,000' depending on the Mark, but in 1957, the RAF managed to get one up to 70,000' and set a then world altitude record..Again, a big difference to an operational ceiling but still quite a feat for the day..

Prior to the U2 becoming online, the RAF flew a number of overflights of the Soviet Union in the Canberra, and in one case a plane sustained damage from enemy fire but managed to get back to friendly territory safely; sadly a taste of things to come with Powers..

Edited to add, the very first fatal U2 crash was with a RAF pilot at the controls and it was during training in the US. A handful of RAF pilots were trained to fly the U2 and did fly recce missions..

Apparently in some sort of legal/political gesture, before the flights commenced, legal ownership of the U2 was transferred to the British Government and it was then transferred back to the US on landing! I think British operational flights were stopped after the Powers incident, at least officially anyway..

Last edited by Pete E; 03/27/15.

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