Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Yes, Barack Obama is a good reason to get down on your knees and thank Abraham Lincoln for preserving the Union so that we could be ruled by this wonderful man.


Good Lord, what an idiot. Is Lincoln also responsible for Ronald Reagan becoming president? The fact that one event follows another in time does not mean A caused B. I notice that roosters crow every morning when the sun comes up. The rooster crowing does not cause the son to rise Joe Bob.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who ostensibly believe in liberty can villify the man who stopped the greatest affront to liberty in our time (chattel slavery) from becoming entrenched as a positive moral good.


He enslaved an entire nation to free some. Yes, what a great man he was.

Let me ask you a question or two. A marriage is meant to be perpetual is it not? The vows literally say "To death do us part" do they not? So, if we take that literally, and the wife is bound to the husband no matter what and there is nothing she can do to leave, and if she tries, he can forcibly bring her back to the marriage bed, is she a wife or a slave?


Oh....my....[bleep].....God. Are you kidding me? Are you really that mentally challenged? The Founders believe the Union they had created in the Declaration of Independence would exist in perpetuity. However, axiomatic to everything they did was their recognition of the very right of revolution that gave rise to the new nation they were instrumental in forming and which they perfected in adopting the Constitution of 1787. They never repudiated the words of the Declaration of Independence and the right of revolution (the right to revolt against tyranny) recognized therein, which is a natural right, by the way. But the south did not revolt against tyranny, they rebelled in order to perpetuate and extend tyranny---the tyranny of chattel slavery which they asked the rest of the nation to accept as a positive moral good! Even the South was careful not to call their actions revolutionary. They spoke instead of "deratification"--of deratifying the Constitution. Their mistake however was in thinking that the Union was formed by the Constitution and therewith by the States. As Lincoln pointed out, this was "an ingenious sophism". Both propositions were and are false. The Union was perfected by the adoption of the Constitution of 1787 and it was perfected by the People (We the People, in order to form a more perfect Union...."

The Declaration of Independence makes clear that the people of the 13 united colonies were declaring their independence from Great Britain, not from one another. The express plighting of faith by each and all of the original thirteen colonies in the Articles of Confederation and two years later that the Union shall be perpetual is most conclusive.
In the words of Lincoln "Having never been States (they were colonies), either in substance or in name outside of the Union, whence this magical omnipotence of "States Rights" (in this case, the right of states to deny to human beings the right to put in their own mouths the fruit of their own labor and to substitute bullets for the ballot box simply because they did not like the outcome of a free election!) asserting a claim of power to lawfully destroy the Union itself.

There is no denying that the balance of power between the states and the federal government is way, way out of balance but criticizing that lack of balance on the basis of the argument that states ought to be free to enslave other human beings as if they were dog or oxen or horses is not the way to make a winning "states rights" argument!

Jordan


It is tyranny to hold someone against their wishes, regardless of the reason they wish to leave. Period.

Just fifty years or so after the Civil War, the United States fought another war and brokered the entire peace based on the right of "self determination" yet when that principle was acted upon in the United States, it was bloodily rejected.

And I have never said that states ought to be free to enslave other human beings, you have an extreme disconnect there. I've merely said that the federal government does not have the right to enslave them in order to keep them from it. You don't get to rape, pillage, and destroy just because you think the other guy is a bad guy. Well, I guess they did and got away with it. That is why things are so fricked up today. The federal government can do as it pleases and if the states try to leave, they'll be brought back kicking and screaming after having been practically destroyed.