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And throughout the battle fields you could hear the Union soldiers screaming 'Lets go men, so we can free all those black slaves' as they charged 12 pounders.


Just as you could hear the CSA boys screaming 'They may take our lives, but they will never take our slaves'


That sounds about right.

Steelhead

Yep thats right in the revisiont history 101 text book

I think that you're wrong. Lincoln was a great POTUS, IMO the greatest, while BHO2 will likely rank among the least influential.

On March 4, 1861, Lincoln took the Oath of Office; "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.". I would opine that preserving, protecting, and defending the Constitution included defending the Union against armed insurrection.

Of course, I could be biased since my ancestor, Salmon P. Chase, served as the Secretary of the Treasury in Lincoln's Cabinet and later, as the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS, he administered the Oath of Office to Lincoln, Johnson, and Grant (x2)

No worse man in history has been venerated more.

And you can't protect and serve the Constitution by wiping your ass with it.

JoeBob, did the South have a constitutional right to secede from the Union? Does the Constitution lay out a process for secession?

There is a difference between an armed revolt and secession.

No surprise

All powers not specifically delegated to the Federal government are reserved to the states.

An oft overlooked fact. Lots of cotton grown on small farms without any slaves. Unless you call the wife and kids slaves. miles

I been trying to get our learned History teacher Birdy to answer that very question all day but thus far he has ducked and dived like a clay pigeon at a skeet shoot.

Cotton was the cash crop for small farmers. Corn was for animal feed and whiskey (which was also cash) and a little cotton would allow him to buy the things he couldn't otherwise acquire.

It was actually debated quite a bit when the Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States

Think about this. Abraham Lincoln issued an arrest warrant for the chief justice of the Supreme Court when he issued a decision that Lincoln didn't like.

Lincoln sent troops door-to-door to confiscate firearms in Maryland, a union state.

Lincoln, arrested hundreds of newspaper editors in the north who wrote editorials critical of the war or his administration.

Lincoln ordered the arrest and deportation of a US Senator from Ohio.

And I could go on and on about the things our dictator did.

And not a single thing that is written in this thread is going change a single thing. Totally an academic exercise.

I have heard this debated for decades about if the South, North, Western Civilization, or the planet would have been better off if the South was able to establish a permanent government or not. I have heard all sorts of opinion as to what would have happened or not. The fact is we have no idea. There may or may not have been a war with Spain, there may have been a war with Mexico due to bandit problems, or not. It is unlikely that a northern U.S. would have been involved in either of these situations. Would the northern U.S. and the C.S.A., either one, have been involved in WWI? If England and France had openly supported the C.S.A. during the war, maybe the South would have felt obligated to them during WWI? If there had been peaceful secession, who knows if the northern U.S. or the C.S.A. would have gotten involved? What about U.S. and C.S. involvement with Japan? Who can say if either would have any interest in the western Pacific? After all, the reason for our presence there is due to Spain giving the Philippines to the U.S. as a war concession. If we had not had a presence there, and therefore not a concern of the Japanese, they would not have attacked us. Also, remember that Germany and later Italy declared war in the U.S. a few days after the Japs attacked us (arguably the dumbest thing Hitler did militarily during the entire war). Again, if there had been a separate U.S. and C.S., would either North or South been involved in a second European war? It is a possibility that there may not have even been a second European war if there had been a divided U.S. and C.S. before WWI - if the first war had ended in a stalemate. WWII in Europe being a direct result of the outcome of WWI, enabling Hitler to come to power. Then would there have been the rise of Russia/Soviet Union? What about the exploration of space which was a direct result of the arms race and political competition between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. which former German scientists contributed greatly? If there had not been the Jewish Holocaust committed by the Nazis, would the nation of Israel now exist - this being a major factor in current Mid-East politics? The results of the political issue disputes of the U.S. in 1860 affected the history of the planet in unfathomable ways that no one can imagine then or now. I am a supporter of the principles of self government, state's rights, as the founders intended. No one knows for sure what will be the future ramifications of our actions. We can only do what we believe to be the right course of action under the current circumstances. We can legitimately play "woulda, coulda, shoulda" forever because no one has yet invented a crystal ball. All we know for sure is what did happen. Maybe it was good, maybe not, maybe somewhere in between. Hopefully, we can learn from the past if we look at it honestly, so we can make wise decisions for the future. We have no power to change the past, but we can learn from it. Ignoring certain truths because they do not fit your particular agenda is nothing but intellectually corrupt.

Well, if Emmett "Doc" Brown had actually existed and had actually built a DeLorean that could travel through the space/time continuum, he and Marty McFly could have traveled back in time and fixed things.

"Things might have turned out different
But you can say that about anything
While things just always turn out like they do......"

partial lyrics from "Crosstimbers"

As Clarence showed George Bailey in "Its A Wonderful Life", changing history can result in unintended consequences that may not be favorable to your cause.

If the CSA had been successful, our lives today might be better, they might be worse, but they'd almost certainly be different.

That said, I still think that the Confederate Battle Flag should be allowed to fly in honor of all of the men would fought, but it should always fly at a lower height than the American Flag.

Hey SM/SH, since you have me on ignore, I'm surprised that you commented on my post.

Egad! Other than generally belittling that photo of actual combat veterans shaking hands over the stone wall where like 50 years before Pickett's Charge had ground to a bloody halt and foundered, have you been following this thread at all?

And, as with most academic exercises, the participants are actually learning things.

JoeBob, you've been doing pretty good so far, but I fear you're gonna come tumbling down in flames by telling us "..and the Jews were responsible, for all of it."