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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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You're lucky. When I say that slavery was essential to the Southern economy in 1860 I get labelled a "revisionist", and worse, a "Brit" That's because you always leave out the fact that the war was about the economy, of which slavery was an element. It's like saying WWII was about killing Jews. So Bleeding Kansas et al. before the war was really about the economy, people caring naught for actual principles at all? And I've oft pointed out that in Southern perception, slavery WAS the economy, by that point they had hopelessly sold themselves out to "Big Cotton", ergo slavery, a process that had been continuing unabated for the previous fifty years. So much so they believed going into it that they could actually use a cotton export embargo as a club to extort recognition from the Brits. Considerable irony in the fact that the interrupted exports of Southern cotton, either purposefully by the Confederacy in the beginning, or involuntarily as a result of the subsequent Northern blockade, prompted rapid increases in production elsewhere in the World. Heck this would have eventually happened anyway even without a war, and the subsequent collapse in cotton prices could have been equally ruinous to the South. Birdwatcher And throughout the battle fields you could hear the Union soldiers screaming 'Lets go men, so we can free all those black slaves' as they charged 12 pounders. Just as you could hear the CSA boys screaming 'They may take our lives, but they will never take our slaves' That sounds about right.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Tracker
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Steelhead
Yep thats right in the revisiont history 101 text book
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think that you're wrong. Lincoln was a great POTUS, IMO the greatest, while BHO2 will likely rank among the least influential.
On March 4, 1861, Lincoln took the Oath of Office; "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.". I would opine that preserving, protecting, and defending the Constitution included defending the Union against armed insurrection.
Of course, I could be biased since my ancestor, Salmon P. Chase, served as the Secretary of the Treasury in Lincoln's Cabinet and later, as the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS, he administered the Oath of Office to Lincoln, Johnson, and Grant (x2)
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I think that you're wrong. Lincoln was a great POTUS, IMO the greatest, while BHO2 will likely rank among the least influential.
On March 4, 1861, Lincoln took the Oath of Office; "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.". I would opine that preserving, protecting, and defending the Constitution included defending the Union against armed insurrection.
Of course, I could be biased since my ancestor, Salmon P. Chase, served as the Secretary of the Treasury in Lincoln's Cabinet and later, as the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS, he administered the Oath of Office to Lincoln, Johnson, and Grant (x2) No worse man in history has been venerated more. And you can't protect and serve the Constitution by wiping your ass with it.
Last edited by JoeBob; 06/29/15.
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Campfire Tracker
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JoeBob, did the South have a constitutional right to secede from the Union? Does the Constitution lay out a process for secession?
There is a difference between an armed revolt and secession.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
No surprise Rory,
You live about as close to me and any other 24HCF member and you and I can both own any class of firearm we want. If there is any restriction in Nebraska, it is the handgun purchase law that requires a resident to obtain a handgun purchase permit. You go to the county sheriff's office, fill out a form, pay $10 for three years, and if you pass the cursory background check you walk out with your permit. It is a restriction, but hardly an onerous restriction.
I have long thought that a national firearms purchase permit, a Federal version of the Nebraska handgun purchase permit, would make buying a firearm easier for everyone involved, both the buyers and the sellers.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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JoeBob, did the South have a constitutional right to secede from the Union? Does the Constitution lay out a process for secession?
There is a difference between an armed revolt and secession.
All powers not specifically delegated to the Federal government are reserved to the states.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I can't speak for the people plowing a 40 acre farm in the back woods of Tennessee. Slave owners weren't the one's manning the cannons. An oft overlooked fact. Lots of cotton grown on small farms without any slaves. Unless you call the wife and kids slaves. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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JoeBob, did the South have a constitutional right to secede from the Union? Does the Constitution lay out a process for secession?
There is a difference between an armed revolt and secession.
I been trying to get our learned History teacher Birdy to answer that very question all day but thus far he has ducked and dived like a clay pigeon at a skeet shoot.
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I can't speak for the people plowing a 40 acre farm in the back woods of Tennessee. Slave owners weren't the one's manning the cannons. An oft overlooked fact. Lots of cotton grown on small farms without any slaves. Unless you call the wife and kids slaves. miles Cotton was the cash crop for small farmers. Corn was for animal feed and whiskey (which was also cash) and a little cotton would allow him to buy the things he couldn't otherwise acquire.
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Campfire Tracker
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It was actually debated quite a bit when the Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_StatesThe federalists acknowledged that national sovereignty would be transferred by the new Constitution to the whole of the American people—indeed, regard the expression, "We the people ...". They argued, however, that Henry exaggerated the extent to which a consolidated government was being created and that the states would serve a vital role within the new republic even though their national sovereignty was ending. Tellingly, on the matter of whether states retained a right to unilaterally secede from the United States, the federalists made it clear that no such right would exist under the Constitution. Thus Madison affirms an extraconstitutional right to revolt against conditions of "intolerable oppression"; but if the case cannot be made (that such conditions exist), then he rejects secession—as a violation of the Constitution.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Campfire Outfitter
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Think about this. Abraham Lincoln issued an arrest warrant for the chief justice of the Supreme Court when he issued a decision that Lincoln didn't like.
Lincoln sent troops door-to-door to confiscate firearms in Maryland, a union state.
Lincoln, arrested hundreds of newspaper editors in the north who wrote editorials critical of the war or his administration.
Lincoln ordered the arrest and deportation of a US Senator from Ohio.
And I could go on and on about the things our dictator did.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And not a single thing that is written in this thread is going change a single thing. Totally an academic exercise.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I have heard this debated for decades about if the South, North, Western Civilization, or the planet would have been better off if the South was able to establish a permanent government or not. I have heard all sorts of opinion as to what would have happened or not. The fact is we have no idea. There may or may not have been a war with Spain, there may have been a war with Mexico due to bandit problems, or not. It is unlikely that a northern U.S. would have been involved in either of these situations. Would the northern U.S. and the C.S.A., either one, have been involved in WWI? If England and France had openly supported the C.S.A. during the war, maybe the South would have felt obligated to them during WWI? If there had been peaceful secession, who knows if the northern U.S. or the C.S.A. would have gotten involved? What about U.S. and C.S. involvement with Japan? Who can say if either would have any interest in the western Pacific? After all, the reason for our presence there is due to Spain giving the Philippines to the U.S. as a war concession. If we had not had a presence there, and therefore not a concern of the Japanese, they would not have attacked us. Also, remember that Germany and later Italy declared war in the U.S. a few days after the Japs attacked us (arguably the dumbest thing Hitler did militarily during the entire war). Again, if there had been a separate U.S. and C.S., would either North or South been involved in a second European war? It is a possibility that there may not have even been a second European war if there had been a divided U.S. and C.S. before WWI - if the first war had ended in a stalemate. WWII in Europe being a direct result of the outcome of WWI, enabling Hitler to come to power. Then would there have been the rise of Russia/Soviet Union? What about the exploration of space which was a direct result of the arms race and political competition between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. which former German scientists contributed greatly? If there had not been the Jewish Holocaust committed by the Nazis, would the nation of Israel now exist - this being a major factor in current Mid-East politics? The results of the political issue disputes of the U.S. in 1860 affected the history of the planet in unfathomable ways that no one can imagine then or now. I am a supporter of the principles of self government, state's rights, as the founders intended. No one knows for sure what will be the future ramifications of our actions. We can only do what we believe to be the right course of action under the current circumstances. We can legitimately play "woulda, coulda, shoulda" forever because no one has yet invented a crystal ball. All we know for sure is what did happen. Maybe it was good, maybe not, maybe somewhere in between. Hopefully, we can learn from the past if we look at it honestly, so we can make wise decisions for the future. We have no power to change the past, but we can learn from it. Ignoring certain truths because they do not fit your particular agenda is nothing but intellectually corrupt.
"...why, land is the only thing in the world worth working for, worth fighting for, worth dying for,... because it is the only thing that lasts."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well, if Emmett "Doc" Brown had actually existed and had actually built a DeLorean that could travel through the space/time continuum, he and Marty McFly could have traveled back in time and fixed things.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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"Things might have turned out different But you can say that about anything While things just always turn out like they do......"
partial lyrics from "Crosstimbers"
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As Clarence showed George Bailey in "Its A Wonderful Life", changing history can result in unintended consequences that may not be favorable to your cause.
If the CSA had been successful, our lives today might be better, they might be worse, but they'd almost certainly be different.
That said, I still think that the Confederate Battle Flag should be allowed to fly in honor of all of the men would fought, but it should always fly at a lower height than the American Flag.
Hey SM/SH, since you have me on ignore, I'm surprised that you commented on my post.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And throughout the battle fields you could hear the Union soldiers screaming 'Lets go men, so we can free all those black slaves' as they charged 12 pounders.
Just as you could hear the CSA boys screaming 'They may take our lives, but they will never take our slaves'
That sounds about right. Egad! Other than generally belittling that photo of actual combat veterans shaking hands over the stone wall where like 50 years before Pickett's Charge had ground to a bloody halt and foundered, have you been following this thread at all?
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And not a single thing that is written in this thread is going change a single thing. Totally an academic exercise. And, as with most academic exercises, the participants are actually learning things.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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JoeBob, you've been doing pretty good so far, but I fear you're gonna come tumbling down in flames by telling us "..and the Jews were responsible, for all of it."
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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