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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,288 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,288 Likes: 9 |
There's a nugget of truth in ALL the opinions voiced above. The F-35 may prove to be the biggest, most expensive fiasco ever. It also may have been a pretty damn good airplane if it had not been nobbled by nickel and dime development by Congress. Because of its decades of slow development, it may be obsolete BEFORE it becomes operational.
And it is very true that the planes it is designed to replace genuinely do need to be replaced.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896 |
Sorry but not drinking the F-35 koolaid especially in ground attack mode. I have no F-35 koolaid to peddle, I already said I know very little about it. The last briefing I had on it was in 1997 when it was still called the JSF (joint strike fighter) program and they hadn't decided between the boeing version and the lockheed version. I'm just pointing out that an article written by a bunch of left wing hacks on an anti-military blog is likely not a reliable source upon which to hang your hat. There may or may not be any credible science behind global warming but I know for sure that when Al Gore starts pitching it I automatically dismiss it as BS because there's a political agenda behind it. It's the same with this, the source isn't credible so the story is suspect. Certainly no disrespect intended just how an old dinosaur like me that used to be in the CAS business see's it. I would add since living so close to an AF community comprised of active and retired individuals I can honestly say I've yet to get any positive feedback. Most say the treasure expended on this program would have been better suited for F-15E procurement or variant upgrades and extending the life of A-10's for CAS since both are battle proven air frames. We're slowly hanging ourselves with costly technology which translates to reduced overall tail numbers. One day this may prove to be fatal as high tech can easily be overwhelmed by shear numbers in most case scenarios.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,415 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,415 Likes: 4 |
That is my fear as well. We are making the same mistake the Germans made - quality is great but as Stalin noted, quantity has a quality all its own.
We won't be fighting farmers and goat herders forever. Some day we will face a technologically capable and well equipped foe. Perhaps not as "well equipped" one on one as we are, but with the ability to field many times more planes/tanks/ships/whatever than we can and more importantly replace what they lose faster than we can destroy it. In the end that's how we beat the Germans and the Japanese, and particularly how the Russians beat the Germans.
Of course, nuclear weapons add a trump card that was not available in WWII (up until the last few days). That threat tends to keep wars on a smaller local scale and fought by surrogates instead of the big boys going mano a mano.
If it looked like we were going to be seriously overwhelmed and defeated by conventional forces the nukes would start to fly, then we're all dead anyway.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
How, I wonder, would an F35 fare against the best the Chinese have. Pilot-skill notwithstanding.
RAND Corp and others have already run simulations. The F35s are blown out of the sky in minutes; they don't stand a chance against even two generation old MiGs. Fits right in with zero's agenda. Cross another one off the list.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
I wouldn't be surprised if our idiot government traded the plans for the best fighter plane designs to China for the plans to what became the F-35.
Its just the sort of thing our ignorant politicians would do. for money. That's the important thing.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
So the question I have is, how realistic is it that we will find F-35's in a visual range dogfight? I thought the whole idea of stealth technology was to avoid visual range dogfight.
Now I'm no pilot, but I read a report where a US Pilot flew a Mig 29 and he said a good pilot in the Mig 29 would probably chew up a F-16 mainly because the gun on the Mig is slaved to the radar and you can actually lock up the gun. Again, just something I read and I don't know how solid that is. For visual range engagements, the Russian aircraft are quite formidibile, but I still think it's going to come down to the quality of the pilot...and the big IF of ever getting into a visual range dogfight. I don't care how good an aircraft is, I wouldn't want to get into a visual range fight with an F-16 against a US pilot. It's probably the ultimate dogfighting aircraft.
And I would think that the F-35's radar would allow someone to avoid detection from 4th generation fighters until the point to where they can choose when and where to engage in a visual range fight.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Oh and shall we not forget, we still have 186 F-22's, which will chew up ANYTHING.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 27,091 |
In a real war after a few days we will revert back to F18 or breakout the highly classified Saucer craft.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,288 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,288 Likes: 9 |
GG, are you old enough to remember when all the "smart" aerial tacticians boldly said there'd never again be a need for a gun on a fighter? That "wisdom" evaporated when our all-missile F-4s kept getting on the tails of Migs over Hanoi - with no way to shoot them down because they were inside missile armup range. Or the missiles just flat failed, which is where dependence on technology can get you.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,634 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,634 Likes: 2 |
So the question I have is, how realistic is it that we will find F-35's in a visual range dogfight? I thought the whole idea of stealth technology was to avoid visual range dogfight.
Now I'm no pilot, but I read a report where a US Pilot flew a Mig 29 and he said a good pilot in the Mig 29 would probably chew up a F-16 mainly because the gun on the Mig is slaved to the radar and you can actually lock up the gun. Again, just something I read and I don't know how solid that is. For visual range engagements, the Russian aircraft are quite formidibile, but I still think it's going to come down to the quality of the pilot...and the big IF of ever getting into a visual range dogfight. I don't care how good an aircraft is, I wouldn't want to get into a visual range fight with an F-16 against a US pilot. It's probably the ultimate dogfighting aircraft.
And I would think that the F-35's radar would allow someone to avoid detection from 4th generation fighters until the point to where they can choose when and where to engage in a visual range fight. I have extensive experience with the 29, 31 and SU-37's capabilities, as well as the old Soviet IADS concept and their version of AWACS. It all SUCKED. The first two were and are POS. The Flanker was pretty good, but an Eagle would eat it for lunch and I'm not even talking about pilot quality either. As to your opening statement regarding dogfights, well, it buttresses your statement that you're not a pilot... Lastly, that quote about "slaving the gun to the radar" try and visualize how one could POSSIBLY "slave" a gun that is fixed to the fuselage. Think about it....
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,634 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,634 Likes: 2 |
Oh and shall we not forget, we still have 186 F-22's, which will chew up ANYTHING. WORD. The performance is nothing short of magical..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2 |
GG, are you old enough to remember when all the "smart" aerial tacticians boldly said there'd never again be a need for a gun on a fighter? That "wisdom" evaporated when our all-missile F-4s kept getting on the tails of Migs over Hanoi - with no way to shoot them down because they were inside missile armup range. Or the missiles just flat failed, which is where dependence on technology can get you. All true Rocky but as you recall the third critical factor was the politicians also hung our guys with an ROE that kept them from using radar missiles (as crude and unreliable as they were) in a BVR fight. I spent some time working foreign material exploitation and had the luck to work against some pretty advanced surface and aircraft potential foes over the years on some dets out in the desert. They all have strengths and weaknesses. The Mig-29 was a strong opponent once you went to the merge. You learned not to do that. It's not all training but it's a huge part of how good our guys are. I was out at NAS Whidbey last weekend for the EA-6B farewell. In my day an Aviator or Naval Flight Officer walked away from their first tour with 1000 hours in type and 200 (usually closer to 250) traps minimum. These days it's 700 and maybe 125. That lack of time in the air flying in dynamic environments (not airways nav) is what will kill our guys on day one.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2 |
Lastly, that quote about "slaving the gun to the radar" try and visualize how one could POSSIBLY "slave" a gun that is fixed to the fuselage. Think about it.... Correct. The HMS in the Fulcrum/Flanker slaved the IR seeker. It made it a damn near unbeatable combo at the merge. Prior to the merge? The F/A-18 had a 98% kill ratio, at least against the former East German Mig-29's. I'm sure PRM has a lot more info. What we can share as far as I know is about what I have shared.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,634 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,634 Likes: 2 |
That is correct about the HMS and the Atoll. Can't share much more, sorry.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,161
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,161 |
We went to Laage, Germany in the mid-90's and flew against the Mig-29's there. The helmet mounted sight in combination with the AA-11 Archer is a formidable combination. It's not all the helmet mounted sight, the AA-11 was a much better IR missile than our Aim-9M sidewinders we were using at the time. The AA-11 had a much higher off boresight capability than we had so they could slave the seeker head to us using the helmet mounted sight long before we could get our sidewinders on them. The AA-11 also had a much shorter arming distance after it came off the rail than we did so their minimum engagement distance was closer. The Mig had a very good thrust to weight ratio also, it's turning performance was very similar to fighting an F-16 in that regard. In a BFM engagement the Mig had an advantage against us mainly because of the AA-11 missile.
Everything else about it was junk. The workmanship on the airplane looks like the russians were drunk when they built it. The germans had a hard time keeping them running. The avionics were probably equivalent to what we had in the 70's, the radar was junk and our jammer was very effective against it. A fighter is just a moving platform for a radar, 95% of the ability of the aircraft is housed in the radar. People like to talk ACM/BFM because they watched Top Gun too many times and it's sexy, but the reality is you radar work is where you make your money. A Mig-29 should never make it to the merge against a section of F/A-18's, F-15's, or F-16's, that's the reality.
The main reason some non-hornet guys bag on the hornet is because we don't carry much gas. The navy lives and dies around it's deck cycle time on the carrier and the hornets messed that up because they couldn't stay airborne as long as the others. Things had to be rearranged when the hornet came along and it pissed off all the old school guys. The Mig is twice as bad on gas as the hornet ever was, they carry very little gas. Part of that is by design, the Mig-29 was conceived as a point defense fighter and at the height of the cold war they didn't want their pilots defecting with them. One fix for that was to not give them enough gas get to the west.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2 |
We went to Laage, Germany in the mid-90's and flew against the Mig-29's there. The helmet mounted sight in combination with the AA-11 Archer is a formidable combination. It's not all the helmet mounted sight, the AA-11 was a much better IR missile than our Aim-9M sidewinders we were using at the time. The AA-11 had a much higher off boresight capability than we had so they could slave the seeker head to us using the helmet mounted sight long before we could get our sidewinders on them. The AA-11 also had a much shorter arming distance after it came off the rail than we did so their minimum engagement distance was closer. The Mig had a very good thrust to weight ratio also, it's turning performance was very similar to fighting an F-16 in that regard. In a BFM engagement the Mig had an advantage against us mainly because of the AA-11 missile.
Everything else about it was junk. The workmanship on the airplane looks like the russians were drunk when they built it. The germans had a hard time keeping them running. The avionics were probably equivalent to what we had in the 70's, the radar was junk and our jammer was very effective against it. A fighter is just a moving platform for a radar, 95% of the ability of the aircraft is housed in the radar. People like to talk ACM/BFM because they watched Top Gun too many times and it's sexy, but the reality is you radar work is where you make your money. A Mig-29 should never make it to the merge against a section of F/A-18's, F-15's, or F-16's, that's the reality.
The main reason some non-hornet guys bag on the hornet is because we don't carry much gas. The navy lives and dies around it's deck cycle time on the carrier and the hornets messed that up because they couldn't stay airborne as long as the others. Things had to be rearranged when the hornet came along and it pissed off all the old school guys. The Mig is twice as bad on gas as the hornet ever was, they carry very little gas. Part of that is by design, the Mig-29 was conceived as a point defense fighter and at the height of the cold war they didn't want their pilots defecting with them. One fix for that was to not give them enough gas get to the west. Good summary. I did the same set with us in VAQ-209 and VMFA-321 and found the same things (and the beer and sausages rock over there. The evenings with the Germans crews were epic  )
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,288 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,288 Likes: 9 |
I agree, Pugs the Rules of Engagement can handcuff even the most effective system. If ya ain't allowed to shoot the fookers, ya cain't kill 'em.
It was true in my war, it was true in your war, it's true in the current war, and damned if it won't be true in the next one.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,142 Likes: 2 |
I agree, Pugs the Rules of Engagement can handcuff even the most effective system. If ya ain't allowed to shoot the fookers, ya cain't kill 'em.
It was true in my war, it was true in your war, it's true in the current war, and damned if it won't be true in the next one. Whole lotta truth there! Reminds me. I need to mail you a book as soon as it works it's way back to me.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,592 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
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It ain't the ones with people in 'em I would worry about.
There is no retreat but in submission and slavery!
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,895
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,895 |
The one thing that worries me about the F35 and the F22 is their heavy reliance on stealth. The enemy only has to make a couple of technological break throughs and a major aspect of these aircraft will be rendered obsolete very quickly..
I suspect that is why the F117 was with drawn from service rather abruptly..
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