Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Slavery Was Not the Cause of War Between States; Gene Kizer Jr

We also have the advantage of stories passed down through our families that lived it.

Asking a rhetorical question hardly amounts to applying modern morality, but neither when looking at history should one forget modern morality.

But a profound revulsion of the evil that was slavery was hardly new by 1861.

Mostly we owe a debt of gratitude to William Wilberforce and his unrelenting moral campaign in England, a thirty-year tour de force of triumphant morality that began nearly sixty years before the War Between the States and ended thirty year before that war with the greatest empire the World has ever known outlawing slavery wherever they were able. So much so that British recognition could never be more than a pipe dream on the part of the Confederacy.

In recognition of its evil both Robert E. Lee AND Ulysses H. Grant both freed their own slaves, so forgoing a considerable financial windfall to themselves. Indeed, the in the words of Mary Boykin Chesnut, who moved in the highest Confederate circles and owed here wealth and comfort to the forced labor of slaves.... God forgive us, but ours is a monstrous system and wrong and iniquity.



How have I not? I would have thought the goal of saving the Union was self-evident.



Cherokee Removal was willful genocide? How so?

In fact feel free to give examples of Indian genocide on the part of the Federal Government.

I have correctly labelled Removal as being the great moral stain on our history that it was (I'm applying a modern sense of morality here I know).

I have correctly pointed out that the Southerners did not let the Constitution stand in their way when it came to so venal a purpose as stealing another man's land and possessions, let alone for so lofty a cause as preserving the Union.

I have also pointed out that the involvement of Federal forces in Removal saved a great many lives. How else would 500 armed Black people (Black Seminoles) who had recently been actively bearing arms in active and costly warfare against the United States Government in general and against Southerners in particular have survived the trip to the Indian Territories WHILE STILL BEARING ARMS (that fact always amazes me, Spike Lee oughtta be all over it).



Congrats, tho to add sad perspective I do believe more Cherokees died at the hands of other Cherokees in the Indian Territory during the War Between the States than escaped Removal thirty years earlier by going up high.

In the decades leading up to Removal, MOST Cherokees who were killed by other humans were killed by Southern civilians who clearly were willing to commit such an unconstitutional act as murder, not the Federal Government.

It has been quite a few years since I went, it being so hard to get there through Gatlinbug/Pigeon Forge, but the Cherokee Museum in Cherokee NC is well worth the time and trouble to get there.

In particular the silent exhibit that just lists the names of those who died during epidemics is absolutely chilling.

And hey, preserving the Union, how was that NOT "for the children"?

Birdwatcher

Ya, a clumsy rhetorical question on my part, but a valid one in context.

It was not my intention to cause offense.

Birdwatcher

I get to reply to this because it refers to me (in "emotion-driven" terms yet) and somehow I expect you'll get to read it anyway.


I'll note that once again you have failed to contribute a shred of the "mountains of evidence" that you have stated support your interpretation of events.

Birdwatcher

WHAT....!!!!


WHAT....!!!!



Here I was thinking I was posting from "the Barrio" I had slunk back to as per HBB's instructions....


You silly twerp, I have often posted about where I live and work.

Birdwatcher

does this mean you aren't going to come to Mason on the 7th, Birdie?? My wife is giving me 2:1 you won't show. If you don't it's gonna cost me $50 !!!!

PM sent.

Exactly. You sit in a state that seceded TWICE and both times in part over slavery. The rest is accurate as well, you inconsistent, intellectually dishonest, hypocritical sanctimonious son of a bitch.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse,and you must choose life so that you may live.

1 John 3:10-12 The children of God and the children of the Devil are EVIDENT by this FACT!!!!! The children of God love there brother and are not like Cain who slaughtered his brother and for what!!!

It is true all men have the freedom to choose and it is there God Given Right!

We are free as men to choose the blessing or the curse.....life or death. Those Christian men certainly exercised there God given Right to kill there own brother.

The choice was not life....the choice was not the blessing.

1 John 4:20 if anyone says I love God and yet is hating his brother he is a liar.

Shod

Some live in the past, some live in a past of of the "good ole days". The past of oppression, KKK, church bombing, cross burning, Jim Crow, etc. A vile past of racism, lynching, a past better remembered than forgotten and celebrated by a flag of that era. Remembered for the evil of of that era. And best buried. But not forgotten. For forgetting slights history, heritage- is an excuse and a blind eye. It's 2015 .
"Get out a new road if you can't lend a hand your old road is rapidly ending"
-Bob Dylan

Well since you did bring up my wife.....

My wife's father's roots go back in Tejas since before the 19th Century, vaqueros y Indios both, so I dunno its correct to call her "Mexican" in the sense you are using it here. Worth mentioning too that her dad was career Military.

Her mother witnessed the Bataan Death March as a little girl, before spending the rest of the war hiding in the jungle while her father fought with the guerrillas. So that part certainly ain't Mexican neither.

I am confused how drug dealing and prostitution in present day Texas relate at all to the contents of this thread.

But hey, I have reason to be proud of my efforts here over the last thirty years, or so many others have told me. I have been exceedingly fortunate that way.

Birdwatcher

My folks have never been in the KKK or a lynch mob. We have never bombed a church.

Go smoke a CO joint and STFU

I doubt you're willing to spend the time, but in what ways does anything I said here conflict with those stories?

Birdwatcher

My folks either. My grandfather and several of his neighbors did help dismantle and run the Klan out of his home county in SW VA back in the early 50's.


As Marc said, just STFU and toddle back off to the weed patch.

You are way off in your view of the South. Like it or not we are not going to turn our backs on our history and heritage. You are so full of crap that it isn't even worth arguing with you about it. Southerners are and have been among the best of all people. Their generosity and hospitality speaks for itself. We will not deny our symbols or our heritage, and we are not going to allow outsiders to define who we are. 2015 is a great time to celebrate our history, as will 2016. Get over it.

You are completely fixated upon slavery and saving the union we were just in leaving. I can't say anything that will change your mind or you mine. My family didn't own slaves and answered VA's call to arms in response to Lincoln's planned invasion of the South. The stories of our sacrifices will be kept among friends and family. Only one in my family got through war unscarred. 4 dead, 3 POWs, a leg blown off at Chicamauga on another.

Here is a link on the 54th VA
http://54th.va.inf.8m.com/

It is simply amazing how many here get offended when they are painted with a broad brush by generalization yet have absolutely no problem doing so to others because of their race, religion, country of origin, etc.

Perhaps now that the proverbial shoe is on the other foot and you see how it feels it will prompt more discretion. I doubt it, but if it opens the eyes of just a single member here then it is progress.

This is not directed at any particular member but if you feel that this is you, well it probably is because you have self affirmed.

Thank you for your reply.

It is non less than amazing at the number of, excuse me if you will, ignorant, educated, and lettered men whom consider the slaughter of brothers and the pronouncement of fellow Christians to be enemies both heroic and honorable.

I fear deeply that there is less than even a degree of worthiness or decency in this line of thinking.

Cowards is the fitting word to describe Christians killing Christians.



Shod

Its been going on since Christ left and will continue until he returns.