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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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We also have the advantage of stories passed down through our families that lived it.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
There's your fatal flaw; applying 20th or 21st Century morality to issues that were done in centuries past. Asking a rhetorical question hardly amounts to applying modern morality, but neither when looking at history should one forget modern morality. But a profound revulsion of the evil that was slavery was hardly new by 1861. Mostly we owe a debt of gratitude to William Wilberforce and his unrelenting moral campaign in England, a thirty-year tour de force of triumphant morality that began nearly sixty years before the War Between the States and ended thirty year before that war with the greatest empire the World has ever known outlawing slavery wherever they were able. So much so that British recognition could never be more than a pipe dream on the part of the Confederacy. In recognition of its evil both Robert E. Lee AND Ulysses H. Grant both freed their own slaves, so forgoing a considerable financial windfall to themselves. Indeed, the in the words of Mary Boykin Chesnut, who moved in the highest Confederate circles and owed here wealth and comfort to the forced labor of slaves.... God forgive us, but ours is a monstrous system and wrong and iniquity.You can't even justify the "save the Union" How have I not? I would have thought the goal of saving the Union was self-evident. you certainly can't absolve the Federal government in the genocide against the Natives in the 1830s, '40s Cherokee Removal was willful genocide? How so? In fact feel free to give examples of Indian genocide on the part of the Federal Government. I have correctly labelled Removal as being the great moral stain on our history that it was (I'm applying a modern sense of morality here I know). I have correctly pointed out that the Southerners did not let the Constitution stand in their way when it came to so venal a purpose as stealing another man's land and possessions, let alone for so lofty a cause as preserving the Union. I have also pointed out that the involvement of Federal forces in Removal saved a great many lives. How else would 500 armed Black people (Black Seminoles) who had recently been actively bearing arms in active and costly warfare against the United States Government in general and against Southerners in particular have survived the trip to the Indian Territories WHILE STILL BEARING ARMS (that fact always amazes me, Spike Lee oughtta be all over it). I'm part Cherokee from some of the very few that escaped those pogroms Congrats, tho to add sad perspective I do believe more Cherokees died at the hands of other Cherokees in the Indian Territory during the War Between the States than escaped Removal thirty years earlier by going up high. In the decades leading up to Removal, MOST Cherokees who were killed by other humans were killed by Southern civilians who clearly were willing to commit such an unconstitutional act as murder, not the Federal Government. It has been quite a few years since I went, it being so hard to get there through Gatlinbug/Pigeon Forge, but the Cherokee Museum in Cherokee NC is well worth the time and trouble to get there. In particular the silent exhibit that just lists the names of those who died during epidemics is absolutely chilling. And hey, preserving the Union, how was that NOT "for the children"? Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
Damn....... a man enters the fray in support of a right to fly a battle flag and discovers that he is now on the side of homosexuals and Nazis.
At least Rob and Mike haven't equated us to Democrats..... yet. Ya, a clumsy rhetorical question on my part, but a valid one in context. It was not my intention to cause offense. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
This: *** You Are Ignoring This User*** is the only thing that should be seen where Birdy is concerned. His Liberal Lemming Vermin Ass deserves nothing else. I get to reply to this because it refers to me (in "emotion-driven" terms yet) and somehow I expect you'll get to read it anyway. I'll note that once again you have failed to contribute a shred of the "mountains of evidence" that you have stated support your interpretation of events. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
As he sits in a state that seceded TWICE with slavery among their reasons, one that he supported (implicitly) and one he opposed, whilst married to a woman of Mexican origin - a nation that Tejas seceded from in order for Tejas to continue slavery, and a nation that today has a very large population of slaves for sex, drug running, drug production, industrial, and domestic work (about which he says and does nothing). WHAT....!!!! WHAT....!!!! Here I was thinking I was posting from "the Barrio" I had slunk back to as per HBB's instructions.... You silly twerp, I have often posted about where I live and work. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 977
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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does this mean you aren't going to come to Mason on the 7th, Birdie?? My wife is giving me 2:1 you won't show. If you don't it's gonna cost me $50 !!!!
If you don't like Robert E. Lee, you won't like it on this ranch. JGM
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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As he sits in a state that seceded TWICE with slavery among their reasons, one that he supported (implicitly) and one he opposed, whilst married to a woman of Mexican origin - a nation that Tejas seceded from in order for Tejas to continue slavery, and a nation that today has a very large population of slaves for sex, drug running, drug production, industrial, and domestic work (about which he says and does nothing). WHAT....!!!! WHAT....!!!! Here I was thinking I was posting from "the Barrio" I had slunk back to as per HBB's instructions.... You silly twerp, I have often posted about where I live and work. Birdwatcher Exactly. You sit in a state that seceded TWICE and both times in part over slavery. The rest is accurate as well, you inconsistent, intellectually dishonest, hypocritical sanctimonious son of a bitch.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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The Civil War penned down in Gods history book as a war in which Christians had deviated from the faith so far that they found it fitting to bare arms and kill there brother.
That's what the Civil War was really about!
Shod This is the interpretation I most like, as expressed by the University Club of Springfield, MO ca. 1928, as seen last week on the Wilson's Creek Battlefield. In honor of.... the hundreds of brave men, North and South, who, on this field, died for the right as God gave them to see the right.Birdwatcher Deuteronomy 30:19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse,and you must choose life so that you may live. 1 John 3:10-12 The children of God and the children of the Devil are EVIDENT by this FACT!!!!! The children of God love there brother and are not like Cain who slaughtered his brother and for what!!! It is true all men have the freedom to choose and it is there God Given Right! We are free as men to choose the blessing or the curse.....life or death. Those Christian men certainly exercised there God given Right to kill there own brother. The choice was not life....the choice was not the blessing. 1 John 4:20 if anyone says I love God and yet is hating his brother he is a liar. Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Some live in the past, some live in a past of of the "good ole days". The past of oppression, KKK, church bombing, cross burning, Jim Crow, etc. A vile past of racism, lynching, a past better remembered than forgotten and celebrated by a flag of that era. Remembered for the evil of of that era. And best buried. But not forgotten. For forgetting slights history, heritage- is an excuse and a blind eye. It's 2015 . "Get out a new road if you can't lend a hand your old road is rapidly ending" -Bob Dylan
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
Well since you did bring up my wife.....
My wife's father's roots go back in Tejas since before the 19th Century, vaqueros y Indios both, so I dunno its correct to call her "Mexican" in the sense you are using it here. Worth mentioning too that her dad was career Military.
Her mother witnessed the Bataan Death March as a little girl, before spending the rest of the war hiding in the jungle while her father fought with the guerrillas. So that part certainly ain't Mexican neither.
I am confused how drug dealing and prostitution in present day Texas relate at all to the contents of this thread.
But hey, I have reason to be proud of my efforts here over the last thirty years, or so many others have told me. I have been exceedingly fortunate that way.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,530 |
Some live in the past, some live in a past of of the "good ole days". The past of oppression, KKK, church bombing, cross burning, Jim Crow, etc. A vile past of racism, lynching, a past better remembered than forgotten and celebrated by a flag of that era. Remembered for the evil of of that era. And best buried. But not forgotten. For forgetting slights history, heritage- is an excuse and a blind eye. It's 2015 . "Get out a new road if you can't lend a hand your old road is rapidly ending" -Bob Dylan My folks have never been in the KKK or a lynch mob. We have never bombed a church. Go smoke a CO joint and STFU
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
We also have the advantage of stories passed down through our families that lived it. I doubt you're willing to spend the time, but in what ways does anything I said here conflict with those stories? Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 27,692
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 27,692 |
Some live in the past, some live in a past of of the "good ole days". The past of oppression, KKK, church bombing, cross burning, Jim Crow, etc. A vile past of racism, lynching, a past better remembered than forgotten and celebrated by a flag of that era. Remembered for the evil of of that era. And best buried. But not forgotten. For forgetting slights history, heritage- is an excuse and a blind eye. It's 2015 . "Get out a new road if you can't lend a hand your old road is rapidly ending" -Bob Dylan My folks have never been in the KKK or a lynch mob. We have never bombed a church. Go smoke a CO joint and STFU My folks either. My grandfather and several of his neighbors did help dismantle and run the Klan out of his home county in SW VA back in the early 50's. As Marc said, just STFU and toddle back off to the weed patch.
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,328 Likes: 9
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,328 Likes: 9 |
Some live in the past, some live in a past of of the "good ole days". The past of oppression, KKK, church bombing, cross burning, Jim Crow, etc. A vile past of racism, lynching, a past better remembered than forgotten and celebrated by a flag of that era. Remembered for the evil of of that era. And best buried. But not forgotten. For forgetting slights history, heritage- is an excuse and a blind eye. It's 2015 . "Get out a new road if you can't lend a hand your old road is rapidly ending" -Bob Dylan You are way off in your view of the South. Like it or not we are not going to turn our backs on our history and heritage. You are so full of crap that it isn't even worth arguing with you about it. Southerners are and have been among the best of all people. Their generosity and hospitality speaks for itself. We will not deny our symbols or our heritage, and we are not going to allow outsiders to define who we are. 2015 is a great time to celebrate our history, as will 2016. Get over it.
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,530
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,530 |
We also have the advantage of stories passed down through our families that lived it. I doubt you're willing to spend the time, but in what ways does anything I said here conflict with those stories? Birdwatcher You are completely fixated upon slavery and saving the union we were just in leaving. I can't say anything that will change your mind or you mine. My family didn't own slaves and answered VA's call to arms in response to Lincoln's planned invasion of the South. The stories of our sacrifices will be kept among friends and family. Only one in my family got through war unscarred. 4 dead, 3 POWs, a leg blown off at Chicamauga on another. Here is a link on the 54th VA http://54th.va.inf.8m.com/
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,416 |
It is simply amazing how many here get offended when they are painted with a broad brush by generalization yet have absolutely no problem doing so to others because of their race, religion, country of origin, etc.
Perhaps now that the proverbial shoe is on the other foot and you see how it feels it will prompt more discretion. I doubt it, but if it opens the eyes of just a single member here then it is progress.
This is not directed at any particular member but if you feel that this is you, well it probably is because you have self affirmed.
SCI Life Member DAV Life Member NRA Life Member North American Hunt Club Life Member
Your true character shows in your conduct
You cannot solve a problem at the same level of awareness that created it - Einstein
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,960 Likes: 8 |
Thank you for your reply.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: May 2014
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2014
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It is non less than amazing at the number of, excuse me if you will, ignorant, educated, and lettered men whom consider the slaughter of brothers and the pronouncement of fellow Christians to be enemies both heroic and honorable.
I fear deeply that there is less than even a degree of worthiness or decency in this line of thinking.
Cowards is the fitting word to describe Christians killing Christians.
Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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the slaughter of brothers and the pronouncement of fellow Christians to be enemies both heroic and honorable.
Shod Its been going on since Christ left and will continue until he returns.
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