Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Custom vs. factory barrels- worth the money?

Do what!? So I take my rifle apart and reassemble it and it will turn into a shooter.

Sure some funny stories on this thread, but this is a gun forum.

Probably not. The NRA/US Army "gauging bullet tilt" article by A. A. ABBATIELLO 50 years ago has a math derivation for bent ammo that stands up to testing.

But that is with random rotational orientation insertion of bent ammo. The eccentric chamber is the same rotational orientation shot to shot. So each bullet [with center of mass offset from the center of bore] flings off course in the same direction upon leaving the muzzle. This results in a displaced, but still small group. I have a 7mmRM that finished chambering with 0.005" eccentricity and yet is accurate.

But in a gun culture steeped in superfluous accuracy rituals, chambering a hunting rifle with benchrest techniques is a small non recurring sacrifice.
I do it the way Mike Bryant had on his web site.

Just got an email from Mike about 10 minutes ago. We were discussing lathe accidents that we have had. Also discussing a software and minor rewiring inorder that you can set your DRO to instantly stop(less than .002) your spindle. A buddy is doing it and he sent me a youtube and it works great. How would you like to turn or thread to a shoulder and the spindle stop at your programed zero?

A friend of mine had a 280 built of good components. Pre 64 M70 action, Krieger barrel,Brown stock etc. It would not shoot,and by that I mean it grouped poorly with anything and he tried both factory and hand loads. He had a lot of patience and owned it several years.

He finally took it to a smith we both use,who tore it down,set the barrel back and rechambered, lapped lugs,new crown,re-did the bedding,etc etc. The rifle immediately started shooting after that.

In the case of the PacNor the rifle simply wouldn't shoot well. He returned it ;they fixed it. It shot well after that. I have no idea what they did to it.

IIRC you and Clark are both smiths; I'm sure you both know there are right and wrong ways to assemble a rifle. I don't know why you are both mystified by what I said.Rifles that don't shoot frequently need to be "fixed".

Point being that a barrel is only as good as the smith who assembles it.That's why guys like Al Warner in NH (who almost no none knows unless you are a match shooter)is in constant demand among match shooters...and Alex Sitman the same when it comes to bedding.

DRO to instantly stop(less than .002)
I have not written any software for 38 years, but I can think of another way to do that. My lathe's foot brake flips a switch and spreads two brake shoes in a drum on the spindle. I could use a position switch on the ways to turn on a field effect transistor that would drive a linear solenoid that would pull on the foot brake pull bar.



First let me say that at the ranges I frequent in the Seattle area with 20 benches firing, my 2 moa groups from a 100 year old lever action will probably be the better than anyone else's group while I am there.

Bart Bobbitt shot a 3.25" 20 shot group at 800 yards in 1997 with his 308 with a Krieger barrel and trued bolt face.

If you are shooting 2 moa, the changing the chamber, lugs, or crown will not make a difference that is detectable or resolvable.

If you are shooting like Bart, then everything is important.

Bedding may not improve things much, but I have seen bad bedding throw things off by 4.5 moa.
In 2002 we built 4 rifles on Mausers actions in 257 Roberts Ackley with Lothar Walther light varmint barrels. Mine averaged 0.5" 5 shots at 100 meters with 75 gr Vmax and 1.0" with HNDY 100 gr. That was good [good for me, not good for Bart], but one of the other rifles shot 5.0". The glass bed job on the bad rifle caused the action or the barrel to bend as the screws were tightened.

I have three V2s, a 223 and two Creeds, and all three are easily as accurate as a most of my custom sporters. I was happy with the McMillan McM Hunter stock that I put one of the Creeds into, accurate and user friendly.

I compare after-market barrels to after-market shocks, in that the factory units are made as inexpensively as possible as a means by which to help the profit margin. However, as my 'smithing mentor says, barrels are like people, each has its own "personality".

My late father designed guns and vehicles. He bought the barrels and did not talk about them,,, and so through my own ignorance I can pretend I know all I need to about barrels. But shocks... he had a bunch of suspension patents that I could understand as long as he was talking. I think I could hand wave about parabolic taper for recoil shocks, but I have some idea of the magnitude of my ignorance about shock absorbers.

But barrels, I am fat dumb and happy with ordering Shilen select match stainless barrels every year.
I get small groups and the teacher should put a star on my range report.

I was thinking more along the line that most people are content with the factory installed shocks, or Monroe replacements, while other prefer the "tinker" with their ride and prefer the improved handling and feel for the road that Bilsteins or Konis are known for.

Most shooters are content with the factory installed barrels, many of which are capable of all the accuracy that many, as issued, factroy production rifle can hope to achieve. Other shooters prefer to "tinker" with their rifles and seek to reduce the number of potential variables in the shooting game through an after-market barrel that they have more confidence in. Perhaps they are "over thinking" the barrel as a variable, perhaps not.

I have Douglas, Hart, Kreiger, Pac-Nor, Shaw, Shilen, and Wilson after-market barrels. Kind of a bell-curve distribution of outcomes with most falling to the high side of average. Probably the best is a Kreiger light-palma stainless barrel that started at 30" and has been cut back an inch at a time until it is now 25" long. I have total confidence in this barrel's proven record of making small groups.

260 guy.
I am on the same page.
We can't know everything, but my experience shows expensive barrels make good outcomes more likely.

Clarkm,
You know as well as I do that your method is way too slow!




I have not written any software for 38 years, but I can think of another way to do that. My lathe's foot brake flips a switch and spreads two brake shoes in a drum on the spindle. I could use a position switch on the ways to turn on a field effect transistor that would drive a linear solenoid that would pull on the foot brake pull bar.

You think the DRO turning off the motor is faster than a switch turning off the motor and hitting the brakes?

In working on the Eclipse jet engine [Pratt Whitney] starter generator controller, we had to calculate the angular momentum of a flywheel that would be the same load as starting the engine. We built a test fixture and put a motorcycle disc brake on the flywheel. We put strain gauges with radio transmitters to measure torque. We needed the brake... It took too long waiting for the wheel to stop after we quit applying power to the motor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

A good barrel is a good barrel. Only reason I play the custom tube roulette is if I want a specific twist or contour. Ive had very few custom barrels that impressed me much. I currently have a lilja that continues to impress though.

Dang. Custom tube roulette? Who's doing your smith work?

Definitely the wrong ones.................

No, I have had some stellar factory rifles. Half the people on this site wouldn't know an accurate rifle if it bit them in the ass...because they dont shoot. People like to post pics of their guns with a brand X barrel, then quickly put them back in the safe.

I have a Ruger #1V 223 and Browning 1885 7mmRM that are better than me. Stock from the factory, just put a big scope on them.
I have hundreds of rifles.
Those rifles are part of the few exceptions.
But with a new Shilen select match barrel I am almost certain to build a rifle that is better than me.
Expensive barrels reduce the risk of inaccuracy.

The late gunsmith Randy Ketchum said he can build an accurate rifle for you with a Lilja barrel or you can buy a factory rifle, test it, and sell if it is not accurate. He said you only have to buy an average of 3 or 4 Rem 700 or Sako rifles before you will find a good one. He admitted either method costs about the same and winds up in the same place.

So what's an accurate rifle and how many rounds down range does a guy have to shoot to be considered a shooter?

In some cases, the 'smith' has no control over the barrel.. He can install it to within .0001 and if the bore isn't concentric his work is for naught..

And I have a timely example.. I've installed barrels from this (will be unnamed) maker for over a dozen years. They've all been stellar - until this morning..

Receiver's done, chamber/threads done, reversed the barrel into the headstock to do the muzzle after rough cutting to 21" FL.. Dialed in the OD to face the muzzle, used a boring bar to give a flat cut on the bore, shallow - to remove any possible burr.

Started the lathe just to do a 'quick peek' and saw that bore wobble like a clown-car wheel.. WTH??? Rechecked the OD to make sure nothin' moved - still at .001 or less.. Whoa....

Mounted a centering bar and took a reading with a gauge to check runout on the bore.. .015!!! Ye Gods..

I've had aftermarket barrels from mucho makers and only a very few have been right on zero from the get go.. Most are .001-005 out of center and that's not gonna ruin anyone's day.. But .015?

I've got a call into the owner of the barrel company and get his input.. At this point, depending on the scope chosen, I'm not all that sure it can be dialed in at anything past 100+/- yards to zero it..

If you index it properly a guy could take advantage of all the "up" in his scope. That is if he had enough "down".